HM Customs - can they do this?

Yesterday (Saturday) afternoon, 5.00 p.m., 1 mile off the Lizard (in the overfalls), we were on our way back to Falmouth from the Scillies. A monster customs cutter despatches a big RIB which charges alongside us and three rubber clad men in crash helmets TELL me they are coming aboard and then hurtle down below to search for whatever customs officers search for. If I hadn’t been there myself I wouldn’t have believed it.

I imagine a warrant might be asking a bit much, but do they not even need reasonable suspicion in order to do a search?

The boat used to be our home, and still is whilst we are away. To have such people charging aboard and, without asking any questions to get a picture of what we were doing, going through everything in every locker seems to me to be a gross violation of my privacy. And why do it whilst we were bouncing around at sea, whilst I’m in the middle of a course change and navigating?

Can they do this legally? Is there some EU legislation to protect the individual from such bullying?

It is said that half the tobacco sold in the south of England is coming from France, illegally, in vans. Yet the customs deploy a fortune in resources to pester innocent people who haven’t even been abroad and are simply returning along the coast from, what had been up till then, a really enjoyable family holiday. Words fail me.

It's happened to me too, but I had nothing to hide so I wasn't too bothered. Is there something else you would like to say. Now you know what it must have felt like to have been Black or Irish and got the sus.. Perfectly legal and long may H M Customs continue.

..they were really doing you and us all a favour by fighting the import of contraband. Fags and booze that puts general taxation up, drugs that get peddled around school playgrounds, animals that could carry rabies or foot and mouth (not that the latter would matter much at the moment!).

I am sure if a lawyer reads your posting they can give a better answer than I, but I beleive there is a right, created by the Human Rights Act, to the individual's enjoyment of their property. This is balanced by the European Human Rights Convention which allows a State to restrict the protected rights of the indivual to the extent necessary in a democratic society. Where the balance lies in this particular case I know not, however what harm was done ? We should all support the efforts to stop smuggling - in all its forms and the authourities need to adopt a robust approach to be able to frustrate the ingenuity of the smuggler. Personally, the incident sounded quite an adventure and will no doubt form the basis for dining out for some time to come. As for the finesse of the officals ? I would agree those that conduct searches of this type need to be able to demostate they are beyond reproach. HM Customs would do well to be polite and explain thier actions for they may alienate the yachtesman, whose support, if I recall correctly, they were canvessing not so recently.

In a word - YES.

At least they weren't French. I had this happen to me some years ago 12.5miles north of Cherbourg. They came on board bristling with guns!!! and the big deck gun on the cutter was trained on us the whole time. They did not even have the courtesy to speak English (in international waters). Try explaining to a Frenchman what Stugeron tablets are for.

"I had nothing to hide so I wasn't too bothered"

Of course you also approve of road blocks for illegal random breath testing on the roads.

Your ancestors probably didn't mind when the Jews were taken away by the Nazis, because "you had nothing to hide" i.e. you wern't Jewish"

Of course you don't mind them reading your e-mails becuase you've "nothing to hide", anyway with such a sickening approach to the *******s who claim the right to intrude on our lives you probably want them to read your e-mails so that they will know where you stand.

I'll bet you would be the first to complain if their RIB actually scrathed your bloody boat. (Could not happen, they surrounded by rubber I hear you cry.) Well I hope they bloody sink you.

Not really called for. I imagine you are one of those who complain loudly about the lack of police action when you're at the receiving end.

HM Customs are welcome aboard my boat at anytime day or night. If you don't want the protection of your nation might I suggest you find another nation to which to belong. Sweden if you like taxes or perhaps France if you like compulsory licencing.

Perhaps the use of a little courtesy can be justified occaisionaly

You do not explain why you were doing such an un-seamanlike thing as sailing through the overfalls (I beleive"bouncing around" was your phrase). Surely such an act is indicative of someone who does not really care about their boat or crew and therefore might be a smuggler?

Fair winds Ken

HMC&E have more powers of search and entry than the common bobby, and they need it to maintain a proper offensive against contraband / illegal immigration etc. Personally, I am much in support of their efforts - not a particularly nice job, it seems to me.

I recently had a visit from C&E in Ramsgate harbour, just after landing. I would rather have enjoyed my safe arrivals beer in peace, but.... there was no doubting their intention to board. A wave to permit them free access, usually produces the required result - ie that they move on to other, less wholesome vessels etc. A nervous or petulant response can produce the opposite of what is wanted.

I was boarded in Lorient by the French C&E last summer - polite they were, and everything in English, ending with a carnet to permit uninterrupted travel with the boat thereafter. No probs.

Most times on leaving France for England look in the sky and you will see a surveillance plane / copter watching you. My advice is to just keep the duster flying clearly, and the vessel name showing, behave normally, and wave to any approaching C & E vessel, and keep the radio open at all times.

In the case that started this string, I wonder if that was the problem that casued a sudden boarding? Stay on line - it helps a lot!

Peter Gibbs

Can they do this legally? Yes they can!!! HM Customs & Excisee have more powers than the police, they can come into "any" property at anytime unannounced. I admit its a bit rich when its happening at the time but as they say "thats life".BTW I was fishing one day off the N.Foreland anchored up rod in hand when "they" arrived,,,, first question was "what you doing" I asked if he needed 3 guesses. Next question was "whats boats name" I pointed to the side of the cuddy,,they then pi***d off

Did I hear somewhere that not only can HM customs search your boat as and when they like, but they can do the same to your house, without a warrant? I don't really like the idea of the latter, but I'm not against them searching boats, although a little courtesy wouldn't go amiss.

I've yet to be boarded at sea or inspected in harbour. However I did once get visited by some uniformed French officials (police or gendarmerie I think)on the first occasion I took my boat to France, a long time ago. Unfortunately I had no SSR and as a result got the minimum (in 1986) 500 franc fine. They were very polite and wished us an enjoyable stay, which we had, despite the fine. Needless to say I got my SSR on return home and have never needed to present it to any official ever since.

Come on guys, these chaps do a great job. We all seem to complain when we are on the recieving end, but oh how we slag them off if our kids manage to come in contact with drugs, or some other illigally imported substance. As a law abiding ctizen and a father, I welcome thier intervention, and more power to them. Was very impressed when i witnessed them, recovering a £2.5m haul along with the divers trying to recover it from the rudder of a suger boat on the Thames, that had come from North Africa.

HM Customs enjoy much wider powers of search than the Police do. This is worth remembering if you ever fall out with the VAT people (who are also Customs and Excise!) Their extensive powers go back a long way in time.

Not only can HMC perform searches of property, they can carry out personal searches of what our American friends call 'body cavities'. Never heard of that done on a yacht (particularly in overfalls - could get nasty), but I do know of it happening at Airport customs posts.

As to their 'right' to search boats invasively - they can detain and almost competely dismantle a boat, car or lorry - I've seen it done. And without giving any 'reasonable cause', as even the Police have to.

It may well be in Nicks case they had information about a boat similar to his.

Drug dealing is big money - very big money, and those involved can be ruthless. HMC are very well aware of this and cannot pussyfoot with them - the stakes are too high.

And if anyone thinks I am objecting to Customs search activities, I am not. I do not LIKE it, but I have worked in inner city Birmingham and seen at first hand the results of drugs reaching the streets and schools, and I have worked with parents and relatives of kids whose lives have been smashed or who have been killed by drugs.

If the cost of reducing that suffering is the occasional stop and search , then I am all for it.

Oh and 'fishing'? Thats one of the oldest smuggling tricks. One boat drops contraband overboard in an agreed location, another comes out and fishes for it. "No, never went more than 3 miles out - I've only been out a few hours - couldnt have got across to France and back in the time..." Smugglers have been doing that one for centuries.

We were boarded 3 years ago 6 miles south of Dartmouth. They approached from dead astern, and were on board before we realised they were there. As soon as they saw the children- they relaxed, introduced themselves (as if they needed to!) asked the ususal questions. We were on a passage from Rotterdam to Falmouth. They did not search the boat, but I would imagine they already knew where we had come from.

I have no objection at all to this, and it certainly livens up a boring trip!

Isn't the occasional random boarding the price we pay for having pretty much a free hand -- or at least a relaxed one -- the rest of the time? Checks need to be made. Thank God we don't have to queue up for an inspection every time we make a home landfall, or a French one for that matter.

I do quite a bit of cross channel jaunts and normally get boarded by UK or French at least once a year. All very polite, UK look for excessive booze/cigs, French seem to concentrate on looking at papers and for illegal immigrants. Bearing in mind the amount of dodgy trade that does go on - seems reasonable to me, but a 2am visit in mid channel did stretch my tolerance a touch.

I often sail with Customs men as part of the crew. Experience says, if you're boarded, don't let the boarders know that there are Customs men on board, or they will show how efficiently they can search the vessel!

nm

... volunteer your yacht for "rummage search" practice. I understand they are usually short of volunteers.

HM Customs have rather more powers than the gestapo used to have except that they seldom use the death penalty.

From reading the various scripts on this topic one might be led to the conclusion that this kind of activity is restricted to the south coast. Not so! I had a rummage carried out on return to a Clyde marina. The two officers were polite but thorough, one searched the boat whilst the other questioned me. I was asked twice how the Autopilot worked! The search lasted about 50 minutes, I was asked where I had been that weekend at least five times! What a message it sent round the marina though. Unfortunately these things are necessary. If it happens to you cooperate!

It all starts so slowly, but totalitarianism ends up being nasty. If you can't see the point of complaining about abusive use of state powers there will be no one to complain to when it finally gets so bad that even the supine notice it.

"When they came for the Gipsys , I didn't speak out. When they came for the Jews, I didn't speak out.

When they came for me there was no one to listen."

All too outrageous to bother about, but ask the farmer who had his livestock killed (and his livelihood) because MAFF couldn't read a map....

And would your own HM Customs have to courtesy of speaking French (even in International waters) if they would come aboard a french sailing vessel ? No need to explain stugeron , when reading your comment.

These people do need the support of the public in order to efficiently do their job.

But on the other hand this will not be achieved by their poor behaviour. I had contact with a group of Local Customs Officers - they were arrogant, sluvenly used bad language and behaved more like a group of football supporters than Goverment officials.

The fact that they can do this (and should , it IS needed)seems to be established. So what is wrong then ? it's the way they do it. Sorry that I have to put it in this way (again , as I have vented same words already before in this forum) , but my experience has consistently been that HM Customs & Excise are a very rude, unpolite and arrogant lot. If they would clean up their act somewhat , it would all be more acceptable. You meet such kind of people all over the world , but -sorry again- the concentration on your nice island seems to be somewhat higher. Please don't export it like all the rest we have seen lately...

... is thank heaven I got out of what appears to have become a state of anarchy! I cannot see that RANDOM searches are in any way a reasonable, efficient, economical or acceptable way of trying to catch who or what ever they're after. Acting on info or with reason is a different matter. I guess it's the pussy-footing penalties and specious defence by "clever" lawyers that has brought things to this.

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