View Full Version : holding tanks
Any info on holding tank requirments for europe in particular UK doing the big refit for a proposed cruise to euope next season and got that part of the boat disasembled... thanks wpsalm
Holding tanks are not compulsory in the UK, but most marinas ban the use of boat toilets and it is not really the done thing to pump out in small harbours. Most of the rest of Europe has similar rules, and some countries, like Turkey, will fine you heavily if you pump out inshore or in harbour.
EU small craft directives say new boats must have diverter valves on the system, but do not yet need to actually have a holding tank. This is because, as yet, there aren't enough pump-out stations. The situation is rapidly changing though, so I would fit one anyway and pump out offshore - it's a lot more pleasant for surrounding swimmers and doesn't cost a great deal.
In enclosed seas or harbours (especially non-tidal) there should be no discharge to the sea and it should be incumbent on all of us to fit and use holding tanks.
In Swedish canals an inspection takes place and diverter valves are locked in the tank position. If not fitted then the sea head is locked off.
It seems highly commendable that manufacturers should be required to fit them as standard in all boats fited with fixed heads.
ponapay
No doubt the Swedes will lock up your bailer too. Or if you want to pee off the end of the pontoon (after an enthusiastic night out) will lock up the pontoon.
I have done the deed and purchased the Nicholson 38. Now I need to start a purchasing frenzy that will end when I have exhausted all savings and future income. To help with this I has thought about holding tanks, where have you fitted yours and of what type?
heerenleed
20-08-02, 13:57
Rediculous, isn't it? Man is the only animal that is no longer allowed to pee under the sky. But seriously. As long as we all use our common sense there should'nt be any problem. The trouble starts when things get out of hand and authorities start to make rules without really knowing what it is all about. Therefore, IMHO it would be wise to install holding tanks if we possibly can, before it will be imposed, even if we can't (no space in the boat).
So, if you must pee off the end of the pontoon, make sure you're not seen....
happa sailing anyway
Peter a/b SV Heerenleed, Steenbergen, Netherlands
OK thanks you guys.. on consideration have decided not to install a holding tank expect that I,ll be able to carry on as usual .
RobertMartin
21-08-02, 02:40
Buy a port-a-loo and if you get inspected, tell them you use it while in harbour, it has its own holding tank and if you do need to empty it, take it to the nearest toilet..
Bobby aka Seawolf..
Freedom is the song of your soul..
gunnarsilins
22-08-02, 14:45
...of pumping out your toliet waste in a confirmed canal or harbour more important than letting the kids, or yourself bath in the water?
At leat I prefer the latter!
And as long you don´t do it into someone elses boat most pontoons are free for peeing!
Gunnar please don't take my post very seriously. It was a joke.
gunnarsilins
23-08-02, 08:08
...overreacted!
Sweden surely do have a lot of stupid laws and regulations, like many western countries.
But if there is anything I´m proud over is it the fact that thanks to quite strong enviromental laws we do have very clean water. You can in fact safely bath everywhere, every river, canal, lake, even right in the middle of Stockholm.
Which I think is quite unique - and well worth to defend!
chrisrixon
23-08-02, 10:51
What about grey water?
Will I get into trouble having a shower or washing the dishes?!
Chris.
In marinas & harbours yes. Skippers have been known to be fined Euro1,500 for letting their dishwater drain into a Turkish harbour! - although that is rare. I have never had any problems with that - my theory is that the detergent helps break down some of the fisherman's diesel spillage. The fish seem to survive regardless!
If in doubt use a bucket in port.
The Baltic is the dirtiest sea in Europe. But I have seen many people swimming happily in it.
One month ago I passed through a slick of what looked like sewage about one mile long and only 300 metres offshore at Dalaro (SE of Stockholm).
In general the visibility in the water is poor when compared with, say the west coast of Scotland. But the Blatic is still a great place to sail.
Agree however on banning discharge into coastal waters where others may swim.
gunnarsilins
26-08-02, 13:56
...is dirty. So dirty that parts of its bottom is almost dead. But NOT by human sevage. Sweden has a total ban of letting sevage (but not from pleasure craft) out in the sea since decades.
The former Soviet countries still dump some sevage into the Baltic sea. But these quantities are nowadays so small so they dont affect the water quality, apart from very locally.
The biggest problems with the Baltic Sea is fertilizers leaking into it. And also chemical waste like PCB and cadmium. This waste affects organic life, but not swimming.
I think it´s a bit silly to compare the Scottish West coast. We are talking the atlantic ocean compared with a sea which is almost entirely enclosed.
A better comparison would be the Med. And I´m quite sure the Baltic as whole is in a better state than the Med.
I´m entirely convinced that whatever you saw outside Dalarö it was NOT sewage! These things simply don´t happen since the 70-ties! By the way, I pass Dalarö every weekend when I´m out cruising.
I´m quite sure what you saw was a slick of algae.
The uncontrolled growth of algae has been a big problem in the Baltic the last decade or more. Probably as a result from the huge amount of leaking fertilizers.
And by the forces of wind and current the algae concentrates into a local, thick slick which reminds you of a thick soup. And it´s easy to believe that it might be human sevage.
The water quality of the Baltic Sea is constantly monitored everywhere. In Stockholm harbour, outside Dalarö, offshore, basically everywhere by Swedish authoroties and independent enviromental organizations. And bathing is always safe! (Apart from a minor accident 10 days ago in the lake of Mälaren, which is a part of the water surrounding Stockholm, but that´s another story).
It would be interesting too hear about how many europeean cities with a population of 1 million or more there are where you SAFELY can bath right in the centre of town!
Spain seems to be an exception then, as having visited over 60 marinas this year NOT ONE had pump out facilities and in three years we've only come across a handful of boats with holding tanks and they weren't using them.
We have no choice as ALL waste water goes into an "on-site"moulded 40 gallon tank with a diaphragm pump to the sea. We always try to empty the tank at sea and when in a marina use the facilities ashore as much as possible, but if at say Almerimar with a couple of thousand berths and only 3 toilets for males and 2 for women it can be a bit difficult.
True there are rules, regs. etc., but western European countries are not very concerned about the problem. Ever been in the Canal de Midi in summer?
Phil
chrisrixon
28-08-02, 13:32
Do you know any one who has done this? There are obvious snags but a lot of pluses:
Cheap
Easy to install/remove
No pump out needed - works on canals etc
Easy/possible to clean
no extra holes in boat
etc
Yes we do.
We have a conventional bog but also carry a Portapotti for use in the inland waterways in Holland.
We find it's good for about 3 days for two persons and can then be easily emptied at at any normal shore loo.
Another unexpected advantage is that you can use it in the cockpit in the sun whilst reading the Sporting Life, and waving to passers by.
Dan
when seagulls are required to wear diapers (nappies for brits) I might consider a holding tank. No one really gives a s--- in the real world
chrisrixon
30-08-02, 15:28
Thanks for that if I go this route it wll be nice to know I,m not alone. Must remember to get a copy of Sporting Life.
Attitudes of those like aph are typically American. Until they are convinced of the need to protect our environment I will not knowingly buy anything American. Especially American bananas!
The USA is the greatest polluter of the environment and should set an example. But Americans have alsways been slow, just remember the two great wars - they were late for both. And look at what it took to convince them. Its just the same with terrorists, they were happy to fund terrorists outside the USA until it was brought home to them fully and in horrific manner.
Lets not pollute the world, its the only one we have and its all our own back yard.
hey........lighten up. All I meant was holding tank is a complete waste of time. I by- passed mine 9 years ago after leaving Turkey as I have never found a marina in the Med with a pump out facility. Raw sewage from shore, fishing fleets etc is a bigger promlem than yachts. USA is not the biggest polluter. Where have you been? Try India, Indonesia, or yes even Northern Europe. By the way, what do you do in the idyllic anchorages of West Scotland. Bucket and chuck it? Not sure what WW1 and WW2 has to do with this, but everyone loves to hate the USA these days...........oh well ............bananas ???????????????
Sorry, wasn't directed at you personally, but just for the record, USA is the worlds biggest polluter and that doesn't include all the USA owned companies, in India, Indonesia, Middle east, Africa etc. etc. Where it's easier to get away with it, remember union carbide, Hmmm...........
Strangely the US has one of the toughest regulations on ships toilets or MSD's as they prefer to call it in the typical three letter acromyn way. In most of their coastal waters any dumping of sewer, even treated one isn't allowed from boats. Still in many places there is a lack of pump out stations and you may need to sail three miles offshore to empty your tanks. Boats without holding tanks and sealable seacocks are fined.
Very true, they do have strict regulations for that, but when BIG money is involved? Remember what Clinton said at the last world meeting, "I'm all for cutting back on pollution and CO2 emissions, as long as it doesn't cost one American job" Just about sums it up! No president is going to do anything if it makes him unpopular with the voters, or the moneymen that put him there! (especially oil companies) get my drift?
If so, I wonder what causes that then?
Before having a go at other countries could we perhaps stop sailing and swimming in our own s#*t?
Do we have standards or are we such a scum bag nation that we have to have laws imposed on us? How long before the RYA's MOB drill becomes Reach Tack Reach Innoculate?
Sailing in arctic waters I was concerned about too many sea cocks in the boat for the ice to damage and the obvious problem of unblocking or repumping the head if ice bloked the out flow.
Not sure about portaloos but gave it a go.
The bonus being no chance at all of blocked heads (lets face it, i'd be in hospital first).
No seacocks, no pipes, no clogging, no seals, no dribbles, no maintenance, no fuss.
No chance of back syphoning flooding the boat or causing (at least) an unpleasent clean up.
Using "toilet duck" absolutely no smell at all. And no eggy/sulpherous smell either.
Easy to empty at sea.
Easy to empty into onshore facilities.
Inhibits me pouring the contents over the side in port and anchorage.
**
If marinas don't provide pump out facilities what are they doing with the vast profits from our marina fees?
at least on boaters...
I myself am a liveaboard in SW Florida and have both a holding tank....required by law, and a Lectra-san....a type 1 MSD that electrically and chemically treats the sewage so that when it is discharged overboard it is safe. The sum total of the "pollution" is the equivalent of three "oak leaves". But even still they are establishing "No Discharge Zones" over here and nothing can be discharged from the boat except possibly grey water. There are areas and marinas that will drop pellets into your holding tank so that if you pump overboard....they can tell.
The 3 mile limit applies to the east coast of the US and the west coast as well. If you are on the Gulf of Mexico....you'd best not get caught pumping overboard inside 12 miles.....
We try to be concious about our world, but the problem is that some people just don't seem to care that much. Personally I would like to see us become less reliant on fossil fuels....but as long as big business has Dubya's leash it won't happen any time soon... I'm not a tree hugger by any definition....but I would like to spend the rest of my life in a halfway healthy environment.
Americans, conscious of the world? Don't make me laugh, without being personal, most of your compatriots don't even know where the rest of the world is, nor care!
thats abit rough Colin......
No, I was being kind. Theres more I could say, but won't, this is not the place.
Actually Colin wasn't being rough......I might even agree with him on some of the same subjects. There is no doubt there are some arrogant and ignorant morons in this country....and for us everyday people....we look at most elected officials as being the morons. But the really strange thing is that while we criticize them....the big question is: How the devil do they get elected or re-elected.
But in all fairness Colin, its very hard to guage us all. There are those of us who do give a darn and want to protect our world, even though we are not all "tree huggers".
As to awareness.....you might be surprised at the really high level of awareness and conciousness that many of us have....though the greater problem is that we are "the silent majority". The media and government pretends to speak for us....but neither have a clue as to what we really think or want. We have a saying over here: Don't believe a single thing you hear or read, and only believe half of what you see with your own eyes.
Colin, if you'd like to share some thoughts with me directly, please email me at rrhoman6@netscape.net I lived in Germany for 7 years all told and I have alittle bit of a handle on where you are coming from. I look forward to hearing from you.
APH,
The worlds problems are all to do with the USA!
Who else can the world blame?
You should sort out all the pollution, corruption, famine, and the fact that I can't get double sided tape in my local shop, also your bananas are to cheap!
Just a thought though..... If you do, would'nt you then be an interfering bully?
Can't win can you?
poter
I doubt you would want to comunicate with me, I tend to be self opinionated and my politics are a little right of genghis khan! I do know, especially after 11th Sept, Americans are looking a little outside their own borders, but as in many countries, people have enough on their plates, just thinking about putting food in their tummies and, the kids through school, uni etc. It's all relative. Lots of people have absoluetly nothing, are strongly religous and see the most powerful nation on earth running rough shod over there ideals, backing up a nation who is killing their brothers and a previous president who couldn't keep it in his pants and then lied about it! That doesn't sit right with an awful lot of people outside the US. But as I've said, it's not for me to judge, I've been at the sharp end of terrorism aswell, being shot at with weapons paid for by a well meaning Irish/American public. Pollution is something we can't go into, we are all guilty, but a nation who uses so much energy uneccessarily is just going to pollute more, thats the way it works I'm afraid. Thank goodness there are people like you around, I hope you get through to more! There's also nothing wrong with being a "tree hugger" somebody has to do it! Or we won't have any, witness, the British Columbian clear cuts! I've seen them, it's obscene what people will do to their own assets and countryside for, mainly Japanese money!
Right off my soap box and I did warn you, I know it's rambling, but there are some salient facts in there, but nothing to do with boating, so I'd better shut up. Good boating and have a great day!
Colin.
I joined this site this morning My Project Pics (http://www.boatered.com>http://www.boatered.com</A>.
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Had great fun flowwing your link, unbelievably stupid !!!
Whats flowwing your link, I wouldn't say you were unbelievably stupid. Although I will defend your right to say so. If of course you were refering to me, then I would ask you to hold your tongue, as I don't call anybody stupid, even if they do exhibit those traits, as I said in the post I did ramble on, but there again, it's my right to do so, wouldn't you say? /forums/images/icons/wink.gif
Coli, that's sure your right, and no I didn't refer to you, though I might reconsider that now.
Anyway, what I meant was the content at the link, going there and reading the crab was stupid too, though quite entertaining and depressing at the same time.
If indeed you go and sign on there to comment in the Non-Boating section, please let me know, so I can share the fun.
I haven't signed on, have enough trouble on this forum!! I replied to your PM by the way. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
Colin, for what its worth, nothing you have said so far has bothered me in the least. Since you are alittle "rightwinged" as you put it, actually to the right of Genghis Khan.....I think it is possible that we might agree on far more than we would disagree on. Many Americans are not that thrilled with the current administration. Hell, out of all the loons in DC in the executive branch......only one of them has any clue at all about what war is really about or any military experience...and thats Colin Powell. And he has already let the cat out of the bag that he is going to retire after Dubya finishes his first term.... Not too many of us have trouble figuring out why he is doing it.
Many of us are very fearful that Dubya will get us into another Vietnam...... and as one who spent 2 and a half years there, I am qualified to tell you that was a freaking crime in itself, that war that is. I presently cannot see any reason to go off half cocked attacking Iraq..... not without concrete evidence that we, or other nations are in definitely imminent danger of suffering an attack with "weapons of mass destruction". So as far as the rationality of of our so called "leaders", you can bet your last shilling that not all that many of us trust and support them. The media is tainted.....but then thats old news. I'm not sure that we should attack anyone....other than focusing on finding the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 and getting a little bit of good old fashioned vengeance.
I am one of those Americans who is tired of my country being the worlds policeman. Other countries need to be involved if involvement is needed.... America needs to concentrate on fixing its own problems, period. And trust me...we have enough problems to deal with without getting involved in the problems of other countries.
Me.....I'd like to see us invoke alittle of the Monroe Doctrine myself.
You fellows should come and join us at http://www.boatered.com Poor old Geoff down in Oz is just having one heckuva time holding his own against us Yanks!!! Besides the entertainment value is immense, and there are people there that will absolutely prove to you that we should not as a country be involved in anything else than fixing our own flat tires.
On the environmental side......I live in Florida and the growth here has been phenomenal.....we have a continual water shortage problem, and they just keeping building houses, condos, and freakin' golf courses that all use water........uhhhhhhhh, duh, and then they wonder why the water table is dropping......... But it seems noone ever thought about building any desalienation plants.......at least not until lately, then somebody pops up and says the excess salt will hurt some type of grass...... Oh, and we moan and groan about the use of fossil fuels, but then we don't do squat to change it now do we?
Lets face it......we have some bigger problems to deal with, but some of our people want to distract everyone else by getting involved with **** that has nothing to do with us.
Its enough to make you crazy if you think about it long enough.
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