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demonboy
02-07-07, 09:51
Having recently hooked up with Lady Jessie for a coffee the subject of anchoring came up. He simply asked us how our CQR was and we simply replied 'fine, no problem'.

So, to stir things up a little amongst all you anchoring mentalists out there, this is our summary after spending our first two months or so at anchor in Turkey. Please note that these are the words of a newbie live-aboard. I welcome comments on the following points raised but I DON'T welcome sales pitches, charts and bitching. I'm really posting this up to help other newbies and those who are confused about all the anchoring posts on this forum and maybe, possibly maybe, though doubtful, put to bed some of the subjects that are continually argued about.

SPEC
We have an 18 ton 43ft (13m) ketch and a 20kg CQR. This is the correct and recommended CQR for our size boat, despite a number of people telling us this is under sized (check the CQR website). In fact this is the top-end recommended size.

WEATHER
Some of our anchoring is done in winds of 20knots plus, some of it in calm weather. Some of it has been in sloppy/choppy water, some in flat water.

SEABED
Some of the anchoring is done in sand/weed, some in weed and some in sand/weed/rock and sometimes mud thrown in too.

TIDES
No tides here so can't comment on that though we often wake up in the morning facing the opposite direction that we anchored in, with the anchor having re-dug appropriately.

It is worth mentioning that I almost ALWAYS dive down with a mask and check the anchor after anchoring. This is as much to cool off in the blazing heat as it is to check the anchor!

CONCLUSION
We spend 99.99% of our time on the pick. The anchor has dragged once and that was in a weedy anchorage with very sloppy water. The depth was 6m and we had 20m chain out.

On the whole when we anchor the CQR digs in straight away and only on a couple of occasions have we had to try a couple of times. After diving down and checking the anchor it has moved about a foot, the length it takes for the CQR to plough in.

Our conclusion is thus, and this tallies with past threads on the subject:

1. SIZE/TECHNIQUE. Forget about SIZE of anchor, it has NOTHING to do with size. It is about technique. After a few early rubbish attempts we are now adept at anchoring and are fully confident with our CQR and its size and about our technique. We can tell if the anchor has bitten, even without throwing the engine into full reverse, though we do do this as well to make sure.

2. CHAIN LENGTH. I think it was Cunliffe who said that chain in the well not being used is a waste so put out as much as you can, or words to that effect. I would tend to agree: in 5m you can get away with 15m but I would prefer to put out 20 or 25m. This just helps take the strain off the anchor but it's worth mentioning that in tight anchorages the 3x rule works fine.

3. SEA BED. Weed alone is bad for a CQR but any combination of sea bed with weed hasn't been a problem. Maybe someone out there has good experience of anchoring in pure weed with a different anchor? I've heard the fishermans is the best for weed.

4. WEATHER. We have hung on the CQR in gusting 30kn+ all night without dragging once.

5. TIDE. Can't comment on this I'm afraid but sometimes the meltem (prevailing W/NW winds in Turkey) act as strongly as the tide and we swing round without a problem. The CQR has 're-dug' without dragging.

6. EXPERIENCE. We've only been anchoring for a couple of months and no doubt we are yet to experience some horrendous anchoring situations. Also we have ONLY been doing this in the Aegean. At the moment, however, we are quite happy to leave Esper at anchor for the whole day without a worry that she will drag. As long as the transits don't change after five minutes of setting the anchor we're happy.

Now that I've posted this we'll probably drag tonight /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

jerryat
02-07-07, 10:08
I agree with you. In respect of the CQR, and most other anchors in my experience, technique and PATIENCE is at least as important as anchor weight OR design.

I too, always dived on the anchor when in the Med/Caribbean - and for similar reasons to yours!!!

Seriously, I often see comments along the lines of 'the CQR doesn't dig in but just seems to lay on it's side'. In 34 years of offshore and ocean cruising, I think I've only seen our anchor completely under the seabed on two occasions - both after a day/night of F9-10 winds. Like you, if the anchor is both set and dug in properly, one can go ashore/to bed and forget it! We have a similar excellent experiences with our Bruce kedge and Fortress.

We've never had our anchor drag once dug in - yes, it has a few times when when first dropping it in the place we've selected, but then we winch it up and do it again - or again!

It all seems straightforward enough to us.

KellysEye
02-07-07, 12:35
I agree with you too. The key to CQR's is to plough them in, do that and you don't have any problems. We use more scope than you, generally 5 times depth and then 7 times if it's 20 knots plus. In shallow water we use 10 times. We've only dragged once in three years and that was a thin sand over flat coral bottom which (IMO) no anchor would hold (I dived down to see what was going on). Needless to say we moved.

catmandoo
02-07-07, 13:48
I agree with you although I am overanchored . 915 KG Brusc and CQR at bow and 12 Kg brittany at stern )
Spent one night with 25 plus knots on the nose off Sardinia with my CQR dug in and wind gusting plus schock waves from reflected heavy swell . Held all night .

Like other posters in other area only slipped due to bad technique in getting through weed and not checking holding at that time

samwise
02-07-07, 17:20
We have been forced to sharpen up our anchoring skills now that we are in the Balearics and facing ascending marina prices as the season progresses.
We have switched our CQR to reserve bower and are using a Delta as the main. So far it hasn't dragged, although we did have a bit of a problem getting it to dig through the weed and we reset in a sand patch which was better.
The full reverse technique has to be done carefully otherwise you may pull the anchor out, but I do like to see that it has bitten well and the chain is straight.
Interestingly we were moored in Soller the other day, where the holding is average and a Brit flagged yacht barrelled in to the anchorage, stopped and the guy dumped anchor and what seemed to be the entire contents of his chain locker into the water in one go. The rust dust had barely cleared before he and his girlfriend were spread out sunbathing. I guess that's what you call mooring to piles (of chain). We noticed that he moved on into the marina before dusk!

LadyJessie
02-07-07, 21:57
Thanks Demonboy: it is good to finally have some inputs on this anchoring subject from real cruisers as opposed to the marketing people, designers and the odd New Zeeland chandliers.

I think you are spot on in your observation that understanding the bottom area and anchor scope is more important than anchor design. Anchoring is an art in managing many aspects. Anyone telling you that one feature (anchor design) is a deciding factor is deluding you.

If you have been following these threads you will have noted that I have been accused of personal insult when I questioned if the statement from the designer of the Spade that this anchor will "set anywhere anytime" was really reasonable. My experience of real life anchoring did throw some doubts on this claim. But I did not have any real personal experience of these "new age design" anchors to check against my trusted CQR, so the claim that "if you have not tried them how can you discard them" had some validity. That is is not to say that my 1000+ anchoring with three drags is a not a sterling record for the CQR.

I have been actively looking for these "new anchors" to gain some experience but they are rarer that hen's teeth in the cruising community. Previously this season I had only found one Spade on a yacht moored in a marina and the owners absent so I could not gain any info. But finally, I lucked out: last week I was anchored in Pedi Bay on Symi Island in Greece and a British boat came in with a Spade anchor. This would finally be my experience of seeing these "new anchors" at work. Well, what happened was that the yacht dropped the anchor three times and it dragged. On the fourth drop it seemed to have caught and they settled in, only to be awakened by the end of the day gusts that dragged them away again. They then left the bay, probably cursing the person who had sold them this anchor on the promise that it would "set anywhere anytime". They had learned that there is no such thing. In real life there is soft mud, hard mud, weed, inclination, fish pots, mooring lines, bicycles, hard sand, rocks and all other sorts of bottom features to challenge your anchoring. Anchor design is most often not a solution to this.

I should not gloat, but I still have to add that while I was watching this yacht with a "new design anchor" unsuccessfully trying to anchor; I was hanging on my CQR that had plowed in at first try and held well in the subsequent 30 knots gusts. There is something to be said for "old and tested". It just works,

silver-fox
03-07-07, 00:19
When powered ships were first built I seem to remember reading that arguments raged as to which was best, the propeller or the paddle steamer!

Tests were run by tying the two together stern-to -stern and seeing who won the tug of war. History records the propeller was proved the better design, even though the paddle steamers were more common and had proved themselves effective in many years service.

Similarly all independent, recent, comparative tests that I have seen, including the recent YM test show that there are several modern designs of anchor that dig in quicker and hold better than the CQR.

That Lady Jessie has anchored successfully 1000 times or a million times with a CQR neither proves nor disproves these test results, it just proves that:-

(a)You have followed good practice and your anchor has dug in successfully

and

(b) for the bottom the anchor has been in, you have not exceeded the capability of your anchor.

There is no need to get personal or suggest that Lady Jessie's experiences aren't valid, similarly there is so much evidence to show modern anchors are better there is no point in getting hot under the collar about that either!

Free choice is the name of the game and we each choose the what, where and when of anchoring for ourselves. In the final analysis as my old man used to say

"You make your bed and you lie on it"

Metabarca
03-07-07, 07:48
Thank you for your useful post. Since you clearly have some experience of successfully getting your CQR to dig in, could you give us a detailed blow-by-blow account of your anchoring technique?

Richard10002
03-07-07, 08:08
[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for your useful post. Since you clearly have some experience of successfully getting your CQR to dig in, could you give us a detailed blow-by-blow account of your anchoring technique?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes Please!

mocruising
03-07-07, 08:53
I have to say that I agree with most of the stuff thats been said here in support of the CQR. Mine is 20 Kg on 100 m x 10 mm chain we have anchored many many times between the UK and Adriatic over the past 4 years in all conditions and we have rarely been let down. If push comes to shove we lay out the Fortress FX 55 on 10 m of 10mm chain and 24 mm octoplait. This is not because I don't have faith in the CQR but it stops the boat yawing about too much and I have always been a belt and braces type of seaman. The maximum wind conditions we have experienced was 50 kts which is no real test, I believe that 50 plus knots sorts the men from the boys, we experienced that on a CQR and 8mm chain in a Warrior 40 without a problem.

It makes me laugh when I observe mainly but not always charter boats drop their anchors of what ever type run out all their chain like a load of dog poo on the bottom and then jump in the dingy and go ashore.

ChrisE
03-07-07, 09:19
We sail a ten ton Rival 38 and have slept at anchor for over 1000 nights over the past 12 years.

For the first 9 years this was on a 35 lb CQR which never dragged but sometimes never set especially on hard sand. When this happened we either got out a 10 kg Fortress or went elsewhere.

For the past 3 years, perhaps 100 nights, we have anchored with a 20 kg Spade which, too, has never dragged but has yet not to set.

All of the anchors have been subject to periods of 40knot plus winds.

I agree that most of anchoring is down to technique but not let's forget that the tools of the trade evolve over time.

GMac
03-07-07, 09:24
Interesting comment there Jessie, one part is quite flawed but interesting all the same and proves a point I keep saying, there is nothing wrong with CQR's, a lot of anchors actually, if set-up well and used right.

demonboy
03-07-07, 09:59
[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for your useful post. Since you clearly have some experience of successfully getting your CQR to dig in, could you give us a detailed blow-by-blow account of your anchoring technique?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't work out if this is a sarcastic comment, so my apologies if it isn't! This is what we do:

1. Having found a spot look at the sea bottom, if possible, and if it's weedy, try and find a sandy patch.
2. Face into the wind (or tide if it's faster, though here in Turkey the tide is irrelevant)
3. Start to drop the anchor and ONLY start reversing once you think the anchor is almost touching the sea bed
4. Reverse about the same speed that the anchor chain is being let out (slowish reverse I guess), or maybe just a little bit faster, but not full reverse
5. If in 5m let out 20m, for example, and when finished letting out the chain keep the boat in reverse
6. If the anchor has dug in either the chain will stretch and the boat will straighten up or the chain will continue to be pulled out. Either way the anchor has bitten. To make sure just keep the boat in reverse a little longer to see what happens. As a previous poster said and to contradict what I may have said earlier DON'T put it in full reverse for ages because you will drag the anchor. Just reverse a little and watch that chain straighten. Now stop reversing.
7. Let out more chain if the anchorage allows. Lots of chain out isn't a bad thing (see note at bottom)
8. Now find a transit. A telegraph pole and a window on a house or a tree and a rock. If you use a tree or something where there are many of them make sure you remember which tree it is you used as your transit! DON'T use any object that can move and don't use an object on the boat like a stanchion.

Dunno if that helps but it's all about laying the anchor correctly and not letting the chain fall into a pile on top of the anchor.


Note: In a busy anchorage don't be selfish and let out loads of chain. Yesterday, shortly after starting this thread, a Turk came along side me and dumped 40m of chain out in a busy anchorage. I politely told him he had too much chain out and was too close but he insisted that by having loads of chain out (in 5m of water) he was fine. He went ashore for the day. Half an hour later I came up on deck to see his wooden trendil coming straight at Esper, bow-sprit about to rip out our awning! Liz and I had to fend this thing off and push it away for about 15 minutes as the wind continued to blow his boat onto ours. We eventually saw the guy returning, paddling like crazy, to get back to his boat and move it. I didn't say anything (but I do like being proved right!) but neither did he, which was a little frsutrating! Where was the apology?

On the same afternoon an Italian turned up in the anchorage and dumped his chain straight on top of an American's chain. When the American politely told him what he'd done, and then suggested an alternative place to anchor, the Italian slammed his ketch into full power, steamed out the anchorage, screaming and swearing at the American! Clearly his pride had been hurt and his machismo upset. We could see his wife screaming at him to stop being so rude and that they should go back and try again but the guy wasn't having any of it!!!!

S'larf innit /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Metabarca
03-07-07, 11:01
"Can't work out if this is a sarcastic comment, so my apologies if it isn't!"

Not at all! And thanks for the rundown!

KellysEye
03-07-07, 12:09
We set the anchor slightly differently from demonboy because it's always windy out here. We let out twice depth and fall back with the wind.

What we are trying to do is snub the anchor i.e. drag it to set. If the chain doesn't come up tight and pull the bows round we let out more chain slowly, about three metres at a time (subject to depth), until it does set (you can feel it). Then we let out our chain/depth ratio. By this time the boat is usually falling back quite fast, the boat rounds up really quickly and we don't always bother with the engine test.

When we dive on the anchor both flukes are buried and usually we have dragged it between two to ten feet to set it.

Pye_End
03-07-07, 22:22
Thanks for posting your experiences.

Can you indicate how often whilst setting your anchor you find that it has not bitten and you decide to start all over again?

AndrewB
04-07-07, 03:23
[ QUOTE ]
Now that I've posted this we'll probably drag tonight /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

And did you?

jimbaerselman
04-07-07, 11:02
[ QUOTE ]
last week I was anchored in Pedi Bay on Symi Island in Greece and a British boat came in with a Spade anchor. This would finally be my experience of seeing these "new anchors" at work. Well, what happened was that the yacht dropped the anchor three times and it dragged. On the fourth drop it seemed to have caught and they settled in, only to be awakened by the end of the day gusts that dragged them away again

[/ QUOTE ] I'm afraid this quote does not prove that modern anchors are prone to drag. What it proves is that the person anchoring was doing something wrong . . .

In sequence of probability:

1. He let out too little scope
2. He dropped a lot of chain on top of his anchor
3. He chose a patch of rock
4. His anchor was too small for the vessel

eliminate those variables before criticising the anchor

cliff
04-07-07, 11:12
Isn't it nice to have a sensible anchor post without the usual sales pitch and "mine is better than yours" and "here is a chart to prove mine is better than everyone elses"?
--------------------
http://arweb.co.uk/aralbums/album08/hammer.thumb.gif "Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom (http://www.sailroom.co.uk) <span style="color:red">The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits</span>

ChrisE
04-07-07, 11:14
I can only assume that they (anchor salesmen) are away on holiday, I just can't believe that they have given up!

04-07-07, 11:18
[ QUOTE ]
And did you?

[/ QUOTE ]
No answer presumably means "Yes"!

cliff
04-07-07, 11:22
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Then let's hope they are taking a long holiday....... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
--------------------
http://arweb.co.uk/aralbums/album08/hammer.thumb.gif "Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom (http://www.sailroom.co.uk) <span style="color:red">The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits</span>

ChrisE
04-07-07, 11:23
Fat chance, or maybe they've just dragged....

Chris_Robb
04-07-07, 11:35
when I dive on my CQR - its always on its side.

When it digs in - as yet unseen - it has been safe. But every time in Turkey, anchoring stern to having tried all the techniques above - it was ALWAYS on its side. I therfore presume this is its set position.

I now use a Manson Supreme - goes in first time every time.

CQR now a garden ornament.

I wish you CQR lovers would just give a new style anchor a try.

demonboy
04-07-07, 11:44
Hi guys,

Apologies for not replying sooner, but we've been busy anchoring around remote places in the Aegean!

So, to reply to the question "did we drag".....we did of sorts!

After a long motor/sail from Datca to Bitez we arrived in Bitez last night at 11pm. We chose this place as a night-time anchorage because of its easy holding (mud and weed).

We attempted to anchor FIVE times, but every time we did the anchor dragged and Liz had to spend 5 minutes each time cleaning the pick of huge clumps of vegetation. We finally held, dubiously, and went ashore for a late drink and went to bed tired but relaxed. This morning Liz woke me up to tell me the anchor had dragged! We weighed anchor and this time, with the advantage of actually seeing the seabed (2-4m depth), we could locate the odd sandy spot in amongst all the weed. I am now writing this post with the confidence that we are holding in 15kn of wind but this is only because we were able to find a spot in amongst all that weed.

Bitez is normally an easy place to anchor but this recent experience is proof that the conditions of the sea bed are very important.

To Pye-End's question.....most of the time we manage to set immediately. Occasionally we have to try two times and last night was the first time we had to try a number of times, but that was entirely down to the sea bed. As KellysEye says, you can tell straight away if the anchor has bitten, it's quite obvious. When in reverse the chain 'pings' taut horizontal and the boat is pulled forwards. If it doesn't bite the chain goes horizontal, then drops, and the boat continues to move backwards (use your transits to check this). As you continue to move backwards the chain will appear to bite (goes horizontal) but then drops vertical again, which means it's biting occasionally but still dragging.

Another tip, which happens to us by accident because of Esper's inability to reverse in a straight line, is to reverse not in a straight line but to swing round slightly. If the anchor bites then as you reverse the boat will straighten up.

In response to the quote [ QUOTE ]
I can only assume that they (anchor salesmen) are away on holiday, I just can't believe that they have given up!

[/ QUOTE ] Liz suggests that their anchors are probably dragging and are too busy resetting them to reply /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

demonboy
04-07-07, 11:56
[ QUOTE ]
I wish you CQR lovers would just give a new style anchor a try.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, this isn't a thread about comparisons of anchors. This is about anchoring with a CQR. If you want a response to this comment, however, I would suggest it's your technique.

It's easy to say 'try a new design' but unless you lend me the few hundred quid to buy me a new anchor I don't have the budget to do this. I have a CQR, it works and that's it.

Chris_Robb
04-07-07, 11:57
Yeah well - says it all, doesn't it. Open your eyes and look into the future /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

demonboy
04-07-07, 12:06
*Nipping this in the bud right now*

Please, responses to anchoring with a CQR only, thank you.

04-07-07, 12:09
My experience is that the CQR is a real pig to get it to set, but once it does it seems to be more or less reliable.

When I have trouble setting the CQR I sometimes give up and switch to Bruce, which bites straight away. I can well believe, indeed would expect, that more modern designs are MUCH better at biting than the CQR, but for budget reasons and 'cos it fits the bow roller, I'll stick with the CQR for the foreseeable future.

04-07-07, 12:10
[ QUOTE ]
*Nipping this in the bud right now*

Please, responses to anchoring with a CQR only, thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]
Forum simply isn't controllable by one person like that. Sorry.

Chris_Robb
04-07-07, 12:28
ok so keep your eyes closed!

I shall post when and where I want - thank you

bluedragon
04-07-07, 12:36
[ QUOTE ]
My experience is that the CQR is a real pig to get it to set, but once it does it seems to be more or less reliable.


[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much my experience as well. The key for me has been to do everything very slowly...wait 'till boat has stopped, lower anchor until it's on the bottom, wait for wind to move it backwards (not the engine), pay out required scope "feeling" the chain for dragging, have a cup of tea, put the engine into reverse tick-over (finish tea), add a few revs (wash tea cup), add few more revs, feel the anchor chain again, if all OK gradually work-up to full rpm. Check if chain is bar tight, switch off engine and set anchor watch on GPS. Make second cup of tea. I actually use this this same technique whatever the anchor type, but it is more necessary with CQR and Bruce types IMHO.

demonboy
04-07-07, 12:49
[ QUOTE ]
wait for wind to move it backwards (not the engine)

[/ QUOTE ]

I've tried this a few times but I have a problem with both the wind blowing the bows sideways and Esper not reversing in a straight line very well. I'm constantly battling with the helm to keep her in a straight line. Just my inexperience I guess...I'm getting better each time we anchor. However, like I said above, sometimes reversing in an arc can be a good way to see if the anchor has set correctly, but that's just me trying to justify not being able to reverse in a straight line /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

How many cups of tea do you get through when anchoring????

bluedragon
04-07-07, 12:59
One is usually enough /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif except a few weeks back when a neighbouring boat "drifted" back on me. My fault really..I hadn't noticed that he was lying to the tide with the wind aft, so he was in fact over or in front of his anchor. As the wind dropped he came back on his scope. So up all chain and anchor and do it all again (with tea of course!)

KellysEye
04-07-07, 13:11
&gt;I have a problem with both the wind blowing the bows sideways and Esper not reversing in a straight line very well.

We do the same and it's good news rather than bad - we drift back sideways and if the anchor digs in the bows come up into wind, making it very obvious that it has set.

bluedragon
04-07-07, 13:21
Yes, I was just thinking what I've done when on boats that tend to blow off. I think paying the chain out slowly helps because even if the anchor is not fully set it provides enough resistance to snub the bow and bring her back up to the wind. I'm sure there are situations when the engine is best, but if can use the wind I do. Probably comes from my early days when the RYA courses taught us to anchor under sail.

04-07-07, 16:49
[ QUOTE ]
The key for me has been to do everything very slowly...wait 'till boat has stopped, lower anchor until it's on the bottom, wait for wind to move it backwards (not the engine), pay out required scope "feeling" the chain for dragging, have a cup of tea, put the engine into reverse tick-over (finish tea), add a few revs (wash tea cup), add few more revs, feel the anchor chain again, if all OK gradually work-up to full rpm. Check if chain is bar tight, switch off engine and set anchor watch on GPS. Make second cup of tea. I actually use this this same technique whatever the anchor type, but it is more necessary with CQR and Bruce types IMHO. That pretty much exactly describes what I do too. With the CQR especially you have to be gentle, increase the pull gradually and use a decent scope while setting it or it gets offended.

bluedragon
04-07-07, 20:02
"Have you seen the new Boating Wiki? "

What's a Wiki??

demonboy
05-07-07, 00:19
A wiki is an encyclopaedia that anyone can update. In this instance it's a boating/sailing encyclopaedia that you can add to or update/change on anything sailing related. For example you can go to the section on anchorages in Turkey and add new details on an anchorage you have visited. Or if you have just done some work on your engine you may wish to add an essay on what work you did.

The idea of a wiki is that you can add/edit pages on any sailing related subject that you feel you can contribute to, thus sharing your information/knowledge on subjects that other sailors may find interesting or useful.

With the FTB Wiki you don't have to subscribe or sign up or anything. Just find a page or a section and add or edit your own experiences/information. It's just a way of sharing information and storing it in a place that anyone can access. The problem with forums is that information on sailing is often repeated and contradicted - with a wiki you can add to the library of information and edit a page over and over again until a general consensus is found.

Use the link in my signature and take a look. It's early days but you can see how easy it is to update/change or create a new page within a section like 'boat maintenance'. Create a new essay on 'changing an oil filter', for example, and other visitors can come along and 'improve' or change the essay if they feel they can better the information. You can upload images too.

A wiki is just a way of sharing information that anyone can edit/add to or change, without the complication of signing up or subscribing to. Give it a go, it's really easy!

GMac
05-07-07, 06:36
My boat doesn't have any power when under motor going backwards so I just throw the pick ('pick' is a generic anchor term by the way) over and let the boat blow back on it. It is easy to feel the rode sliding over the seabed and then the anchor starting to bite. Once I feel the bite I cleat off and all is done.

If it's looking at going bad (30kts plus or waves) I'll throw whatever little horsepower at it just to make sure the pick is heading down and leave it at that.

I sail at anchor like you wouldn't believe so that sets the pick well and truely.

No problems to date. Currently not using a CQR but did the same when I was. The key to CQR's is back slowly, very slowly until you feel the bite then apply motor a bit.

MentalPause
05-07-07, 08:16
My anchoring technique is essentially the same as you describe.

It has been used in every kind of ground and weather available from the Canadian border down to Florida. I have seen F8 once on the gauge in a thunderstorm at anchor, and lots of F5-6's. I estimate I have anchored 500 times in the last 3 years.

I have a 35kg CQR, all chain, I always snub it - on an 11 ton, 38 foot motorsailer i.e. lots of windage. I tend to use the mizzen reefed to keep her from yawing about at anchor if the wind is strong.

I have a Delta as a second anchor and a Danforth as a kedge - only used the kedge a few times in Georgia creeks. Never used the Delta.

I have dragged once, in grass, in Nantucket harbor, in calm weather and little tide movement after it had sat happily all night.

I was so surprised that I actually thought the yacht next to me was heading out until I did a double-take when I realised he couldn't be moving out when his anchor was still out and the skipper was on the roof drinking coffee! Thats the price of over confidence or familiarity breeding contempt.

My conclusion is I that couldn't have a better anchor and I hope my Delta is as good. It might be better, because if I used it I'd be less relaxed and therefore less likely to make a mistake.

jimbaerselman
05-07-07, 09:27
[ QUOTE ]
Please, responses to anchoring with a CQR only, thank you.

[/ QUOTE ] Perhaps you should have ticked off ladyjessie then, for slagging off a 'modern' anchor based on one observation of someone probably using a very questionable anchoring technique?

LadyJessie
05-07-07, 12:13
I think I can handle a bit of ticking off, Jim. But if you read my comment, I was not “slagging off” the modern anchors. They are probably just as good as a CQR. What I was commenting on were the unreasonable claims that has been made by their designers and marketers that they are so good that technique is irrelevant. Claims like “sets anywhere anytime” gives the anchoring novice the wrong and potentially dangerous message. As the posts above shows, how you set an anchor is far more important than anchor design. Anyone with a different message is trying to delude you.

trouville
05-07-07, 15:37
Ive read through posts hear and i think there great!I say that becouse my laptop was struck by lightning and wont now connect to the internet so im useing a very old spare and its very hard to read post as i have to scroll back and forth

I just want to say that the CQRs never let me down and id never be without one albeit just a small 25lbs one I want to mention my Danforth which is my main anchor cos i like it and it hold well.

As for weed i have had succsses with a fisherman but it seems best in heavy weed as the weed itselfs well planted and not easy to tear away so holding depends on the bottem but also the weed!For me at least so far.

When i had my old boat which was a 40 footer i think i would have needed a very very heavy fisherman to anchor to it with full confidence,now with only 2.5 tons to hold my anchors can manage but with 10 tons plus and far more windage perhaps if enough chains laid out a fisherman might work

One point about the fisherman its to easy to wrap the anchor chain around the flukes or rather "a" fluke and end up laying to a heavy weight and chain.Thats happend to me twice!! The first time it was blowing not to bad or long thankfully or i could well have found myself on the sand that night and its not that easy to kedge off!

Ive seen boat blown ashore that couldent get off then it could be expensive!

Wish it would stop raining!Turkey sounds a very nice place to be just now but perhaps to hot in the long term??

Ate carre de pork aux quetshes (pork with plumbs)and drunk a heavy cote du rhone then the rain dident seem so bad from a crowed cafe.Im very thankful i havent got a time table to keep!!Some that want to get to the med are more than a bit fed up with the rain this year

Good post and stick with the CQR they really are a very good anchor never ever let me down i just have a problem with the swinging head at times so i use my Danforth which once its fangs are down dosent try to bite me anymore while i stow it

Ive just read page 2!Its a real pain reading post sooner i can get a replacement laptop the better i may have to take a tgv to nice where there seems to be a good second had shop IBMx40 420 euros?? For example? First have to put a plastic cup out with a sign please help??

I agree exactly with simon cr that exactly how i do it i let the chain out untill the anchor touches then as i drift back i lay the anchor and chain letting it pull up as the chain goes out,then get the motor going and give a pull though mostly i push the main out if theres any wind to back it in.My CQR has always dug in.

As i said i use a danforth of course that never lays on its side its large sharp fangs dig in.I also go below to pour another glass of good French wine or in summer(when will it start) i pour a white sparking wine and look about then finnish the anchoring.If its blowing and a swell comeing in i do things a bit quicker!But never so fast that the boat lays side on to the swell.I still pause to let the beast dig in before putting out full scope

Tea should only be drunk untill 8.30am!Water can be bad for you even when boiled!

bluedragon
05-07-07, 16:30
"Tea should only be drunk untill 8.30am!Water can be bad for you even when boiled!"

...trouble is that if I swap the tea for vin rouge then I fall asleep before the CQR has dug-in /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif ...though as I'm now using a Delta as the working anchor, maybe I'll re-think the choice of beverage /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Seriouly, it's a bit difficult to totally dissociate the topic of anchor choice from technique. As a previous (and still occasional) CQR user I do know that they need a bit more time to "bite", but I have also found that once they're in, they're in, in spite of what the tests lead one to believe. I do also believe that the modern anchors probably hold better and set more easily, and when the costs come down I'll probably try one...but with the right technique CQRs are holding thousands of yachts quite safely around the world as we speak, so long as the owners don't just chuck them over the bow and think that's it.

jimbaerselman
06-07-07, 08:52
[ QUOTE ]
I was not “slagging off” the modern anchors.

[/ QUOTE ] Point accepted - I was looking at the paragraph rather than the sense of your whole post.

I completely agree your thesis that the nut on the helm is the most important part of the anchoring equation. Only if he is performing well does the anchor type come into play.

heerenleed
06-07-07, 12:41
I can't tell you what a relieve your comment is! After having read all the posts and tests which invariably told the CQR off as out-of-date I was wandering why we never have a problem with our 65 lbs CQR on Heerenleed. I almost started to think it must be my ignorance or sheer luck. Maybe we have got it right after all.
Thanks again
cheers

GMac
09-07-07, 08:49
[ QUOTE ]
As the posts above shows, how you set an anchor is far more important than anchor design. Anyone with a different message is trying to delude you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or you have read a post written by someone who has never tried a new one, as there major big advantage is they do outset most others. It is well proven fact but only one part of a anchor purchase decision.

Note - no specific designs mentioned. Yes I sell anchors, inc CQR's, but none of you have any idea who I am. It's staying that way on purpose and always has been. No associations, agendas or sales pitchs, the way it should be here. Only a well informed opinion.

Note 2 - nothing wrong with CQR's if set-up and used well.

I do completely agree with your “sets anywhere anytime” comment, it could easily give the wrong impression to a new boater. It should be made to go away.

Here's a thought. Buy one and the first time it doesn't set ping them for a pile of dosh and chuck it in the cruising kitty /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Could be easy money if done right.

LadyJessie
09-07-07, 10:40
[ QUOTE ]
written by someone who has never tried a new one, as there major big advantage is they do outset most others. It is well proven fact

[/ QUOTE ]

I risked my reputation last night by bringing up "the anchor question" in a well frequented yottie bar in Orhanyie, Turkey, with three fellow cruisers. We had three CQR's and one Bugel among us, which is a fairly typical population of cruising anchors in the Med. Our best estimate was that we had done something like 6000 anchoring days between us and we had collectively dragged 10 times. Now, are you going to tell us that another anchor design could have significantly (meaning enough to spend money) improved that performance?

Richard10002
09-07-07, 12:10
Notwithstanding what I have said previously, having had 10 attempts to anchor in thick weed and sand in P. Andraitx, Mallorca, when we set once because the anchor found a small patch of weed free sand and, having been moved on by The *&amp;^%ing Police, we have sat on it not dug in for 2 nights in light winds.

I may be doing it wrong, but where we are there isnt room to let it drag much until it finds a bite, so I'm now going to buy a ROCNA ... whatever anyone says, and however hard it is to get one.

I suppose I'll have to use the Hi-Blade Plough, (CQR Copy??), for the rest of the summer and get a Rocna delivered to Malta.

Cheers

Richard

ChrisE
09-07-07, 12:26
Ah, now you know why we have a Spade /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Seriously, your expereinces of anchor not setting in weed and hard sand mirror ours and with no electric windlass, taking 5 or 6 attempts to set the CQR became too much like hard work. Once set the CQR was as safe as houses but we just got fed up with arriving late at an anchorage and then spending an hour or so looking for a place where the CQR would set.

The Spade just sets, even in weed (much to my surprise and delight) although I'm sure that in the pathological case of thick kelp it would struggle.

Best of luck with your Rocna.

craigsmith
09-07-07, 13:01
I find it ironic to see such blind faith in something, and the desire to defend it to the point where it is necessary to start, unsolicited, such a thread...

...when, in the space of the same thread, there are a number of reports of the exact problems which drive the development of new and better technology. Most from these same Luddites. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

My conclusion is that some simply exhibit extremely good brand loyalty and have a lower "bar" than others for what constitutes acceptable performance. In that multiple attempts to set the anchor, and the odd dragging incident, is quite acceptable.

Others expect more. From our enquiries over the last few days, some typical comments...:

"The CQR is driving me crazy. It has always been a good anchor for us, but the typical bottom was mud or loose sand. Here in Mexico we encounter packed sand more often than not. I find myself having to haul up the chain and try resetting on average 3 times in any given anchorage."

Yeah yeah we know Mexico isn't in the Med. But actually the bottom is quite comparable. Still...

"Last year a friend of mine here in malta purchased one of your anchors to replace his CQR, a wise move."

And more Med stuff...

"You can't sell a CQR anchor for 1 euro anywhere in the Med. No one wants them."

/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Just thought I'd bring back a bit of balance. C'mon GMac you can do better than this /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

jimbaerselman
09-07-07, 16:50
6,000 anchoring days, 4 people, that's 1,500 anchoring days each. A very busy sailor may visit 150 places a year, but some of those will be marinas . . . OK, so the average of your group was 10 years or more experience of full time living aboard, predominantly using anchors.

With only ten drags - say, less than two drags each.

Obviously, you all test your anchor set very thoroughly using full astern before going to bed. Good technique.

What you didn't mention was how many efforts it took to dig the anchors in each time. And this is the point of improvement claimed by modern anchors compared to older anchors.

I actually count failed 'sets' as drags . . . puts a different light on it?

As for dragging comparisons, my test bed was a fleet of 50 yachts mooring stern/bows to for an average of 120 days a year over 15 years. That's quite a bit of hooking. Anchor set was checked by nervous flotilla leaders. Need to re-set was common with CQR and Bruce, rare with flat anchors.

As I've mentioned before (excluding setting problems), the drag rate of CQR and Bruce compared to Britany and Danforth (we had mixed equipments in the fleet) was so high that we re-equipped throughout with flat anchors of the same weight(1988 or so).

The limitation of flat anchors (a liability to trip when pulled at a new angle) did not arise stern/bows to.

OK, this is only a 'bows to' case, but it was enough to make me discard my CQR when I bought Rapaz in 1997. We use it as a 'chum' to sink the stern line below the props of passing traffic . . . I'm beginning to think that was a big mistake . . .

demonboy
09-07-07, 22:12
[ QUOTE ]
some simply exhibit extremely good brand loyalty and have a lower "bar" than others for what constitutes acceptable performance

[/ QUOTE ]

You just couldn't resist in the end, could you Craig?

I quite clearly started this thread as a 'this is my (limited) experience and this is my conclusion' as a new live-aboard. I also said I do not have the budget for a new anchor and perhaps I didn't make it clear that we inherited the CQR when we bought our boat. We didn't choose it, so I take personal offence to your comments. Your lashing out at potential customers will win you no favours.

We tried to find a Rocna in Bodrum/Marmaris last year, couldn't, and so spent our budget on other things for the boat. Since then we've made do with our CQR, without incident. Nothing to do with brand loyalty, nothing to do with a 'lower bar'.

To make up for this though please could you ship a Rocna over to Turkey for us to try out? I would happily give it a go and, if successful, shout from the rooftops on it's amazing performance within this forum and beyond. A new, inexperienced and clearly uneducated liveaboard singing your anchor's praises could be a good marketing spin. You could phrase it "idiot liveaboard who knew no better has suddenly seen the light".

Re-read my original post and ask yourself 'really, was he having a dig at modern anchor designs?'. I think you'll find the answer is no. And perhaps you'd like to re-read the subject of the thread. No mention of modern anchor designs there either.

Perhaps you could PM me for our postal address in Bodrum for that Rocna? We're back there end of July and could have it hanging over our bow in time for the autumn/winter season, which will be spent at anchor.

FullCircle
09-07-07, 22:22
Hear Hear. Nice reply.

Phoenix of Hamble
09-07-07, 22:50
well said...

Yet another unpleasant anchor thread.

I will never buy a Rocna anchor.... not because they aren't any good, I have no bloody idea whether it is any better than my current Delta without trying it.... its just that it is now impossible to discuss anchors on this forum in anything approaching a mature manner.... which is a sad loss to a powerful and useful support environment... and this is the only easy way for me to register my contempt.

Maybe a selection of the above contributors might like to reflect on the fact that I am unlikely to be the only one to hold that view.

Barr Avel
09-07-07, 23:05
Morgana, I think the point is that the different types of anchors have been endlessly discussed, trials compared to real-life experiences, and all the arguments posted here have already been posted several times over. What else can be said about anchors in a "mature manner"?

Anyway I didn't see anything commercial in Craig's post...

Marc.

demonboy
10-07-07, 11:28
But he didn't contribute to the subject in hand, 'anchoring with a CQR'. He just had a go at those of us who have never had the chance to try an alternative to it, thus turning this very pleasant thread into a nasty one. To be expected though.

Chris_Robb
10-07-07, 15:34
Also try the Manson Supreme - Its great and looks nicer!

LadyJessie
10-07-07, 18:16
[ QUOTE ]
OK, so the average of your group was 10 years or more experience of full time living aboard, predominantly using anchors.

I actually count failed 'sets' as drags . . . puts a different light on it?


[/ QUOTE ]

Jim, I always enjoy exchanging ideas with you.

Yes, I knew that it was a mistake to admit to our number of anchoring days. It kind of dates us, doesn't it? You are very correct that we have been sailing for a lot longer than ten years and we all come from countries where anchoring is the norm when mooring (thus neither of us are British). But we have decided to not admit to our real age. We feel that could seriously diminish our chances of getting on the Alinghi team next time around.

I will not comment on your second point. Let's drop that. We would just get back to the "setting anywhere everytime" argument and I think we have covered that extensively.

Hope to see you sometime in the Med for a nice refresher aboard the Lady.

HanaXAGOR
11-07-07, 02:11
http://www.ias.ac.in/resonance/Oct2004/pdf/Oct2004Classics.pdf

jimbaerselman
11-07-07, 09:46
What a lovely link!

It leaves one wondering why the Admiralty replaced their Fisherman anchors with stockless anchors, unless they accepted the great increase in weight needed as an acceptable penalty for ease of deployment and recovery.

GMac
14-07-07, 08:37
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
written by someone who has never tried a new one, as there major big advantage is they do outset most others. It is well proven fact

[/ QUOTE ]

I risked my reputation last night by bringing up "the anchor question" in a well frequented yottie bar in Orhanyie, Turkey, with three fellow cruisers. We had three CQR's and one Bugel among us, which is a fairly typical population of cruising anchors in the Med. Our best estimate was that we had done something like 6000 anchoring days between us and we had collectively dragged 10 times. Now, are you going to tell us that another anchor design could have significantly (meaning enough to spend money) improved that performance?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell no!
That is effectively a perfect anchoring record and unlikely to be ever improved on by anything.

The genuine Bugel is a known good setter anyway so dosen't count really. It's more a new generation anyway, some say the Mother of them all actually.

So no need to change. You have obviously found the key point to getting your anchors working better than others who use those and must have very well matched systems on the boats.

I always say, think system not just one component. Here is a perfect example why.

Sorry been away holidaying, on bloody land and with the kids as well. Hell of a week with no dingy to send them off in /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Richard10002
14-07-07, 11:14
[ QUOTE ]
What you didn't mention was how many efforts it took to dig the anchors in each time. And this is the point of improvement claimed by modern anchors compared to older anchors.

I actually count failed 'sets' as drags . . . puts a different light on it?

As for dragging comparisons, my test bed was a fleet of 50 yachts mooring stern/bows to for an average of 120 days a year over 15 years. That's quite a bit of hooking. Anchor set was checked by nervous flotilla leaders. Need to re-set was common with CQR and Bruce, rare with flat anchors.

[/ QUOTE ]

having only started overnight anchoring recently, here is my record with my 45lb plough:


7 nights at anchor

4 nights in sand, 3 nights in sand/weed

21 attempts to set

4 successful sets, (in sand)

2 nights where it wasnt set, but conditions were ok to risk it

1 night where it held 1500 revs in astern, but had dragged in the morning.

Conclusion: My plough sets fine in sand, and is useless in weed.

I count all the failures as failures, and as good as drags - definitely a major PIA.

I guess, if I never tried to anchor in weed again, the plough would record near perfect results, but I will be severely restricted, so it's going to go.

Sadlermike
14-07-07, 11:28
I have layed to anchor (on average) 320 nights per year for the past 12 years. I have a 32 ft yacht, 35 lb CQR on 60 metres of 10 mm chain. I have dragged five times. I can see no pattern to the drags. The two worst occasions have been after being on the anchor without any problems during serious blows (F8 and 9) and the wind falling lighter (on one occasion after two days, the other after 36hrs) but without changing direction. On both occasions I dragged when the wind dropped to F3-4 and when I had assumed that my problems were over. I am sure there is an explanation for this but I cannot think of one.

craigsmith
14-07-07, 16:22
[ QUOTE ]
Conclusion: My plough sets fine in sand, and is useless in weed.

I count all the failures as failures, and as good as drags - definitely a major PIA.

[/ QUOTE ]You're not alone.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising/3...html#post166644 (http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising/31955-proper-ground-tackle-long-island-sound-new-england-2.html#post166644)

LadyJessie
15-07-07, 00:23
Thanks Gmac, you seem to understand the real issues for cruising people. Thanks for your honesty!

GMac
15-07-07, 04:06
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Gmac, you seem to understand the real issues for cruising people. Thanks for your honesty!

[/ QUOTE ]

It helps having done 30K odd + miles myself in many boats in many places. Also I actively hunt feedback from my customers (now being a bit more land based for a wee while but not much longer) and do take a, some say too weird, fascination with anchors. I'm not coming from a sales point of view, as you will notice by my well kept anonymity, I'm here to learn just like most others.

Not to mention being another tight arsed yachty I also run a why spend if no gain programme. Before anyone get too excited, yachties are a bloody tight bunch, I know I am one and deal with many /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Maybe the MOBO's have developed a thicker skin from watching the numbers fly around when filling their tanks /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

ccscott49
15-07-07, 05:17
I would like to go the "new generation" way, but none of these type anchors will fit in my hawse, not in the weight I would want anyway, nothing short of 100lbs.
The shanks on these are just too wide (thick) to fit inside the hawse and not jam.
I now need a new anchor as my 120lb fob has bent!! I could repair it and modify it for more tip weight and with a bar to stop it rotating, which is what I think bent it in the first place. But why do I have to modify it!
I must not be the only guy with an anchor in hawse, so what do we do?
I guess we just dont go to sleep when anchored and a blow is forecast!
By the way, I've had halls pattern, CQR, danforth, fob. Plus I've dragged all of them all over the bloody ballearics!

craigsmith
15-07-07, 05:35
Can you install a bow roller?
(Might sound silly but hawse pipes just aren't sensible these days on small boats...)

If your FOB is 120lb I'll warrant your boat is a bit smaller than this, and note what the new addition, not to mention an upcoming bow-roller installation, is replacing here:

http://www.rocna.com/images/remote/barbarella-110.jpg

Failing that, why not buy a Buegel, or get one made? (Straight shank). (We could even make you a Rocna with a straight shank, although the issue is with getting the anchor to come home the "right" way - however I note you mentioned a CQR, so if that worked, you should be okay).

http://bluewaterlife.de/Buegelanker.jpg

ccscott49
15-07-07, 18:05
No, my boat is about that size, 57' and 48 tons fully laden, in fact that boat looks a bit like Englander.
By the way, my mistake, the FOB is 160lb, on 200' of 5/8 chain, the CQR was 95lb and the halls (which I still have) is 150lb. I also carry two CQR's of 85lb each as kedges.
Doesn't matter which way round the anchor comes up, theres a large stainless plate on the bow, which it would hit no matter where it came up.
Bow roller? Just not possible or for that matter desired on on boat like mine.
Also mine is a single centre hawse, not double like her.
I will investigate and get some more dimensions of these anchors, you mention and see what can be done.
Anywhere I can get actual dimensions?