View Full Version : 1st Self built catamaran (hopefully)
Hi everyone
It's always been my dream to build my own boat and live on it. So i've decided to do it. I have no experience and i've only just begun to learn to sail.
I figure that if i can build it - i'll know how to fix it when it breaks!! And i'll get the size boat i want for a fraction of the price.
I have a budget of about £40 to £50k- i intend to build a 34 foot catamaran ( prout designed) there are well over my budget new (approx £150,000) do you think it's worth building it or should i just buy a old boat? I have made several enquiries and conflicting views seems to be the dish of the day. Some say it would cost twice my budget others say it's more than enough to build and kit it out.
Would i be able to sell it afterwards - or would it be worth significantly less because it was a self build?
Anyone out who can help! i would appreciate any advice you guys can give me.
Thank you
Do you intend to mould it yourself?
Seems that you are flexible about building/not building ...but not flexible about the living on it. So i wd buy an old one, and gradually fix it up whilst living on it.
I wd be wary about spending a whole hep of loot on self-build. It most certainkly will be worth less than factory-built. It will also look a bit self-built unless you have plenty of v decent woodworking machinery.
I intend to do everything up to rigging - in which case i have friends who can do it for me and they can also build the mast etc.
If you are going to try and make the moulds for this boat, then you're budget is very, very low! But if you intemnd to make it out of ply, then I hope your a very good shipwright. Good luck, don't let me put you off.
Thanks for the advice.
I do have access to a full workshop and have much experience with glassing and building moulds etc. I was also hoping to do a course/workshop with a multihull manufacturer in NZ ( i have family there so it would be cheap)
Do you think self built significantly affects the resale value? compared to a renovated boat of same value.
Many people DO self build sucessfully,
BUT........
..the plethora of projects for sale that "just need fitting out", or are "three months from completion", would suggest that a fair few people run out of time / money / patience, or just underestimate the skills required to actually build a boat succesfully.
Before making the substantial commitment to DIY, why not have a look at some of the projects for sale by others. You'll probably find a half built job for sale at less than the cost of materials. At the very least you'll discover the pitfalls, and hopefully avoid ending up in the same situation.
Alternativly, buying a knackerd factory built job, and doing it up is a challenge in itself and you'll certainly know your boat by the time you've fininshed. Perhaps more than you'd like ;)
Whatever you do, best of luck
Jim
summerwind
12-09-02, 14:43
I would be inclined to see if you can find a semi-completed project. But I would say that because that is what I did.
If you are goint to go down that route, take a long time looking around and a long time thinking over the project that you are buying. Make sure you know exactly what you are getting for your money.
I would like to make it out of fibre glass.
When making moulds, is it v expensive ? i've made moulds for toy cars ( for family) and it was the most time consuming but cheapest part.
You ideas are gratefully recieved
Thanks Jim
The only reservation i have is that i don't know enough about the construction techniques to know whether they'd done a good job or not. Would it be problematic to have in 'process build' surveyed?
Very time consuming and expensive, after all, you are building a boat, (the plug) to make a mould, to make another boat. Thats why volume manufacturers build that way, they offset the cost of the mould over many boats. One off builders dont do it that way, they build in steel, qaluminium, wood or wood strip epoxy, which might be the best idea for you, if you are experienced with the use of epoxy. It's not easy, by any means, especially a catamaran, where you will hjave to make moulds for the hulls and the deck/superstructure. As I've said I don't want to pour cold water on your dream, but it needs a lot more research on your part. I hope this helps you, best of luck, I'm signing off now and won't be back for three weeks, going cruising! Bye!
I think most surveyors would be happy to help you out. You may spend a fair bit on fees, but it's better than spending a lot on a bad job.
They'd probably be able to advise on the best way to go about finishing the job as well, if you did buy into such a project.
Are you set on a cat? Most projects seem to be mono's
Jim
I'd find a factory built boat and refit the thing. That's the route I chose. And even by taking this easy way, I still have problems from time to time (which these fora are great at sorting out)
Building from scratch is a very tough proposition. If you are keen to try then maybe start on a dinghy.
You can build me a little sailing tender if you like.. for less than £80... *grin*
If I were you I'd have a go at doing a couple of smallish stitch and glue affairs.
I don't think fibreglass is the right choice for the homebuilder.
Have you looked at Wharram cats?.. nice looking things often built by amateurs, presumeably stich and glue. They are of the polynesian design, but some seem to habve hade bridge deck fitted.
Good luck!
Regards,
Nick
Many thanks for the advice. It seems to be what most would do.
I had thought i'd build a scaled down model out of actual materials so i'd be able to get a feel for it. do you think this would be of any use?
i've been to most of the major manufacturers ( and even taken chartered holidays abroad). I've also spoken to several small independant boat builders.
I prefer the layout of the cats simply because you get more space on deck and below (compared to a similar sized monohull)
Also there seems to be a great deal of debate on the quality of a lot of production boats. The general message is that modern cost efficient production methods tend to produce poorer quality vessels. This was one of the reasons that i decided to try and do it myself. I had a conversation with a chap from canada and he purchased a new yacht direct from the yard, the hull cracked during a mild storm whilst anchored. the boat was later sold and he built his own for a third of the cost to buy it new. When he had his boat surveyed it was worth more than it cost to build not including the cost of his own labour. He subsequently built 3 more boats.
Whether this story is true or not is'nt clear.
Try this link http://www.ybw.com/ybw/class/boats.htm
If you do a search for 'catamaran' you will find an unfinished project for sale. You may well find the older boats are heavier built. We done a similar thing to a late 70's Heavenly Twin catamaran and found it to be very well made. Best of luck!
Thanks for your help steven.
V Useful - do you think that older boats tend to be of higher quality? Many people have remarked - newer production boats may not be as strong/long lasting or durable enough to use regularly.
not as a boat, no, but you know, if you added it to the kids' cars you've already moulded, you could be on your way to starting a model village. Some people like model villages.
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by JohnM on 12/09/2002 23:31 (server time).</FONT></P>
There a large number who won't buy any car/boat except a new one. There's a much larger number who'll buy a second hand car/boat - but not a self-build. They'd run a mile, and so would I. Sure, there's a market - but only when your is priced far below all the others. It's not like a self-build house. It will be cheaper to build your own - but only whilst you own it , not if you ever sell it - then the lower sales price will eat up some or all or more than the savings. IMHO.
Have a look at Kelsall Catamarans www.kelsall.com They run workshops for owner builders here and in other places where there is a demand.
Here in NZ, Catamarans NZ are offering hull and deck packages for NZ $295 000 for a 13.6 m sailing cat which is some indication of the money involved.(a lot).
How modern is the prout design you are considering? In the pictures I have seen they look quite dated.
Keep us posted on your progress.
Good luck
Strathglass
13-09-02, 09:43
I have some experience of building a self built boat.
I started with a grp hull with its keel and deck fitted (33ft).
When I started I was in a well paid profesional job and the boat was in the garden beside the house. Progress was very quick- for the first year.
Then my employers (run by accountants) decided to move out on defence electronics. My wife and myself (along with many others) were made redundant on the same day.
I (wrongly) took the advice of the local enterprise company and sunk my pension and redundancy money into a busness to make sailing dinghys. That failed for various reasons. Moved myself,wife and unfinished project about 200 miles but boat was now three miles from the house and as the main priority was to earn an income to eat and provide a roof very little was done to the boat.
Since then divorced, remaried and the boat is almost finished. Only the rudder,rig,some wiring and gas plumbing required to finish.
The construction is to the highest standard, everything is documented and the internal layout is to my choice.
I have only purchase any parts when they were available at the right price.
It has cost me for material alone in excess of £30K and I have not taken my time into account. I have had no external assistance.
It has taken me a total time of 12 years and is not launched yet.
LOOK VERY CAREFULLY AT THE COMMITMENT
I have fortunately been able to continue sailing during the building process.
But, in the end I have the yacht exactly as I want which I would otherwise have been unable to afford. The resail value is an unknown quantity but I intend to keep it and use it so that does not concern me too much.
A very high percentage of people who start a diy boat project never reach the end but I think my progress? is fairly typical.
For a one off craft you should consider using one of the modern wooden strip technologies and buying plans from an established source. Making moulds for a one off project is just not cost or time effective.
Iain
Keith
I can only comment on my own experiences with an HT.
We found that the quality of the gelcoat was very good and that the layup and build to be very sturdy. I have been told by someone that specialises in GRP repair that the old HT's are much better built than the later ones. I have no experience of the new ones.
Starting from scratch will take a huge amount of commitment and time but the rewards will be correspondingly large - IF it all goes as you plan and the finished product is what you want.
Excellent advice!
Kelsall have an excellent reputation - i am not hell bent on the prout.
I am determined to build a new design (2000 and beyond.)
The courses in NZ sound fantastic and i'm saving so i can go over. Have you any experience of these workshops?
The hull and deck packages - are they in kit form? Sounds like they'd be out of my budget.
Although i have stated a budget of 50k i could extend that to 70k or so but would prefer to keep it down. I have also provisionally arranged to take time off work to build it, it has been suggested that i build it abroad. Are you aware of any place that would offer an advantage in say cost of materials/ labour etc?
I appreciate all comments good and bad.
That's one hell of an achievement - i don't think i'd last 12 years.
It has been suggested by a boat builder that i consider making a mould to build 2/3 boats and set it up as a company until the build is complete, then sell the other boats and the mould. This would offset the costs and with a good degree of planning could realise a small profit. Sounds unlikely to me!
But what do you think? Pie in the sky or sound business advice.
Does any one know anything about estimating the amount of fibreglass needed.
Any help gratefully recieved.
I think the thing with the older boats, especially cats is no one had any real idea on how much stress grp could take, so to make sure it didn't break they slapped in two or three more heavy layers of mat to make sure, also on the older production cats you will find some massive box beams joining the hulls together, incidentally you will not see a cat with a rub rail worthy of the name, so beware berthing alongside where there is any sort of surge/movement, a freind of mine lost hi gemini like this it was caught alongside in a strong wind (no one on the boat) and the side of the boat started to rub on the wall and the side of the boat collapsed,yes there were fenders in place, but apparently they were squashed flat......a cat is still a good choice for cruising,when you consider you spend more time at anchor than you actually do sailing, this is when they score big........keith
Hi!
If you take a look in Shepperton marina there is a guy who is finishing a 52 foot cat, who I am sure, would be pleased to discuss any points you may like to know as to his design and build costs. It is a very modern design (his own) and will be finished by the end of this year.
Rob
The information on the workshops was obtained from the Kelsall website, I think they base them around boats that are already under construction and bring potential builders in to look at what is being done.
I mentioned the hull and deck packages more as a means of illustrating the costs involved.These are however first class boats built to survey standards by a reputable builder(Catamarans NZ) and design team (Wright Lavranos).
If you did come over here you would get about $NZ3 for every GB Pound.
Prices for materials here tend to reflect the global norm. There is a goods and services tax of 12.5% which may be refundable if you were to take the vessel out of the country immediately on completion.
Althouigh I have never built a boat, I have found most people in the boating industries here well informed and willing to share experience and ideas.
If you are indeed capable of building a boat to a first class standard there could well be opportunities here as boatbuilders are in short supply and the marine industry is going flat out.(America's Cup spinoff mainly).
Whatever you do dont underestimate the committment required.
Good luck.
http://www.spsystems.com/techinfo.htm has some resource material that includes estimation of epoxy.
snowleopard
14-09-02, 19:19
I have built 2 of derek kelsall's designs and am in touch with others who have done so or are in progress. Derek will happily give you other names so there's no need to fly round the world! the method is not as cheap as a wharram but the product is a sight better than a prout unless you like going slowly! email me for more info.
Consider Wharram catamarans, see their website www.wharram.com
I built a 46' wharram many years ago and we completed it in a year with 6 people working every weekend and evenings. We intended to do the circumnavigation thing but thats another story!
I believe you can buy Wharram hulls in GRP from somewhere in the west country which would be a good starting point.
Visit the website and ask questions - they are a very lot.
Good Luck
dickh
I'd rather be sailing... :-)
snowleopard
17-09-02, 13:58
i think grp is the only material for a self builder. just sailed 13,000 miles in mine (my 3rd grp build) and i have only basic wood/metalworking skills but anyone can pick up laminating techniques in under a week.
snowleopard
20-09-02, 20:11
for example in my case (40ft) i used 4x500gsm glass (that's grams per square metre) with around 1.3 gm of resin to 1 gm of glass. Any designer will give you the specs for his design. Make sure you know what type of blass you need, there's a big difference in price between basic chopped strand mat and hi-tech stitched cloth. solid grp will need much more glass than sandwich but will be heavier and cheaper.
We bought a 19 year old Boat for 57k spent 15k and three months fitting it out to our spec, it is now like new, and we are now sailing to the Carribean. I would not build a boat. We have met many so far who have all complained that their homebuilds took way too long (years) cost far too much and are hard to sell. Have only met one happy homebuilder and he gave up half way through and had it finished by a yard. Get an old boat and fit it out the way you want.
Good luck and it is a great life.
If you are still possessed at the notion of building your own......you might want to do searches on Pivers and Wharrams. They are primarily plans built boats that are done with plywood and glass w/west systems over them. They can turn out to be good boats. The Piver Trimarans have a good selling history...I remember when I wanted to buy one..but everytime I went to look at one, by the time I got there it was already sold.
But on the other hand, we decided to buy an older boat...a Morgan 33' Out Islander, a boat with a 12' beam that is vintage 1975, for less than $24,000.00 US and have been refitting her a bit at a time. We live aboard, so working on it can be "interesting" at times. Given what I have now...I would buy an older boat and refit it. A boat that has been around for a while has a history, and has knowledge behind it, and can be repaired. Home builts are only as good as the person who put them together.....and some of the ones I did see were mostly only good for "bonfire material".
In any event, follow your heart, but make sure your brain makes the decision as emotions tend to confuse things.
Reality is the cause of all stress!!
Thanks for the advice (from everyone). Its been an eye opener.
I have thought alot about how i can get the boat i want. I've looked into training that would give me specific skills inorder to get the job done to a high specification.
I have worked out that it is possible to build a oneoff vessel to uk standards (RCD etc) and keep the build costs within budget. I have enlisted the help of lloyds and a boat architect both of which offered free advice (although this took a little sweet talking).
I am developing a business concept that would allow homebuilders the chance to construct their vessels to uk standard (perhaps even make a profit on the sale of your vessel). A coalition of DIY sailors would be able to compete with established yards in the procurement of materials. In addition expert instruction could be provided within workshops and build quality certified by the appropriate bodies during the project. Tools could be centrally provided and shared amongst the 'group'
I have been discussing training needs with several providers in the uk and a NZ manufacturer.
Does anyone have any opinions about this?
Do you think its a good idea? would it be something you'd be interested in joining?
Would you consider this a good way to build your own boat?
Has anyone homebuilt a boat to european safety standards?
Has anyone out there experienced any training in the uk?
To all homebuilders and aspiring home builders.
vBulletin® v3.8.1, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.