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peterb26
30-01-08, 22:15
I recently saw an advert in the Home Counties which had the following requirements:-

Essential Requirements

•RYA Yachtmaster Offshore (Sail/commercial)
•RYA Powerboat Instructor
•RYA Cruising Instructor (Sail) or ready to qualify
•RYA Shorebased Instructor or ready to qualify
•RYA SRC Assessor or ready to qualify
•Experience of skippering and/or instructing in the Solent
•Full UK driving license
•Experience of maintaining small craft

Desirable requirements

•RYA Yachtmaster Instructor (Sail)
•RYA Advanced Powerboat Instructor
•RYA PWC Instructor
•RYA Dinghy Senior Instructor
•RYA Yachtmaster Offshore Power (or Instructor)

And the starting salary was between £15.5k and £17.5k p.a.

Now it may well be that this is the "going rate" and this is no attempt at belittling the company looking for the applicant - but I'd be very interested in what other folks think about this.

To me its like the poor old Coastguards being paid less than the lads and lasses at McDonalds......

Those qualifications are by no means the bottom of the rung - most folks here who read them will probably think "yep - I'd like to have that lot".....

Yet they will only generate 17.5k per annum in exchange for a 40 hour week...... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

OR4751
30-01-08, 22:24
If you get £75 per day, you're doing well /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Ample supply of zero to hero types has flooded the market in recent years.

Twisterowner
30-01-08, 22:30
[ QUOTE ]
........ but I'd be very interested in what other folks think about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a market. If the company doesn't get any applicants they will have to offer more money, otherwise..........

slipknot
30-01-08, 23:33
Of course, instructing afloat is not a 40 hrs a week job. The £75 (ish) per day is for possibly 12 hrs + of preperation/instruction and certainly 24hr responsibility for the care and safety of your students. Its a terrible rate of pay if you look at it on an hourly basis. You have no continuity of work and you only have the summer months to earn your living. You need to find an alternative for the winter. You have the cost of renewing your qualifications, medical examinations, insurances, waterproofs etc etc. No mater how much I would like to instruct, I simply need to earn more money than this to support my family. I guess I need a lottery win to put a few quid in the bank before I can do the job I would really enjoy.

fireball
30-01-08, 23:40
Before running off and getting a proper education and job I did dinghy instruction - totally voluntary so no pay, but I found that being on the water all day in teaching boats meant that I didn't want to do the evening or sunday races at my club .... so rather than doing the sailing that I really enjoyed doing (blasting around in a Fireball ...) I ended up plodding around in Wayfarers ...
so for me - I'd rather not teach as a profession ... I'm quite happy to help out or do informal instruction when we're out sailing, but certainly not as a career ... as for the pittance they are offering ... hmm ... you'd need 2 jobs just to make a living!

wotayottie
31-01-08, 07:51
The RYA one day shorebased courses are much more viable if you can get enough of them, but sailing instruction whether on the water or the theory is poorly paid. Its the usual problem when too many people want to opt out of normal work and try to turn a hobby into a living

graham
31-01-08, 07:59
[ QUOTE ]
Yet they will only generate 17.5k per annum in exchange for a 40 hour week......

[/ QUOTE ]

An instructor doing Yachtmaster preperation may get on the boat Sunday night then not get off again until Friday night when the candidates start their exam.

During the week they have to do night passages on at least some of the nights. All adds up to lots of hours (way over 40)for not much pay.

SkipperMarv
31-01-08, 08:02
[ QUOTE ]
too many people want to opt out of normal work and try to turn a hobby into a living

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are right in one thing, too many people opt out of normal work, I did, but trying to turn a hobby into a living, at £17.5k I for one can't live off of that, the people that retire and do instructing are still doing it for a hobby, but they ask for little money, so the schools pay the market rate, this makes it impossible to make a living from instructing IMHO.

wotayottie
31-01-08, 08:08
I suppose it depends on what you want in life. A younger member of my old club went off to Sunsail in the med doing instruction / skippering. The pay was poor but all was provided, he got bought lots of beer by the punters and he got a fresh delivery of young women every flotilla turnaround.

It was a way better option than working in his fathers business, so when the flotillas shut down in the autumn, he went off to the ski slopes as an instructor and with the same rewards.

Never did join the family business, but messed everything up by getting married!

Quiddle
31-01-08, 08:08
[ QUOTE ]
I did, but trying to turn a hobby into a living, at £17.5k I for one can't live off of that

[/ QUOTE ]

Any reason why not? Millions of people do in this country.

john_morris_uk
31-01-08, 08:16
YM Instructors pay has always been poor and the turnover (burnout?) of instructors can be high. £100/day can be achieved from some sailing schools, but guess why I don't teach sailing for a living! Individual/private instruction works out a little better for the instructor but you still have to pay tax etc and somehow allow for a pension? You are never off duty and wind and weather adds to the stress of the job. Good instructors will ensure that almost whatever weather they get, the course will be enjoyable and appropriate for the candidates.

Some schools now keep the instructors on during the exams!! (I think this is a sign of a good school - the instructor sees the examination process and keeps his instruction relevant and appropriate.)

Powerboat instructors can demand more money - and for some reason owners of big powerboats are often prepared to pay more for instruction...

peterb26
31-01-08, 08:20
The more I think about it - the more difficult it becomes to resolve.

For instance, lets take a basic Powerboat 2 course. 2 days duration, typically over a weekend and only a maximum of 3 people can go on it as thats the RYA rules.

Typically people will pay around £250 for this course. You could probably get it for less if you searched around.

So the poor old RYA traing company has £750 in income. It has to provide a RIB - which could be a £35 grand investment and one that depreciates quickly. That RIB has to comply with Rya/mca requirements. Then they have to provide fuel - God help us!

They have to provide office accomodation, heat, light, tea, coffee etc etc..

And the whole lot (including RIB) has to be insured.

Plus they have to pay an instructor.

So there is NO WAY, that the instructor is going to get £200 a day for the two days work. He is going to be lucky to end up with half of that.

I can't do the maths on the Dayskipper/Comp Crew/ Yachmaster Courses as I dont know the figures involved, but I'd be surprised if the Training Companies are making a fortune out of these either.

AlJones
31-01-08, 10:21
I pay a MINIMUM of £100 per day!

Plus travel when required!

These are professional people that deserve a fair days wage for a fair days work. They are looking after my boats, they are representing my company, I feed them, provide them with clean protective clothing, branded I admit but they keep theirs clean.

24hrs a day when they're working, is £4.16 an hour!! But I feed them also and don't charge them lodgings when they stay at our houses.

£17000:00 pa eh?

If they work 22 days in the month, and they are there for 24hrs on those days, that is £2.68 an hour!!!!!!!

Theres a thought!

Al.

OR4751
31-01-08, 11:37
Give us a job /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif Nudge-nudge, wink-wink /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Talulah
31-01-08, 13:28
Likewise I pay a minimum of £100 day. All to often you see students who want to go for a pub meal but the instructor can't afford to do it. To do so often costs them a third of their wages. The instructor line is usually 'We have enough food onboard to eat but if you want to buy me dinner that's ok."

powerskipper
31-01-08, 13:44
This is a mine field,

dealers want to keep costs down, and can be very slow payers.

schools need to cover their costs and put something away to replace boats etc, and carry the cost of slow payers.

instructors want, need work, but they have to be careful of burn out, mistakes are not easily forgiven on a £250,000 boat.

boat owners want to keep costs down.


I have spoken to loads and loads of peeps about this stuff. and have come to the conclusion, instructors ain't in it for the money. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

flaming
31-01-08, 13:48
[ QUOTE ]
instructors ain't in it for the money. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely.

I deliberately let my cruising instructor qualification lapse to kick start me into doing something that pays me closer to what I think I'm worth!

There's a scratchcard being advertised on tele now that has as its top prize a £40k a year salary. If I won that I would consider going back to instructing!

AlJones
31-01-08, 14:43
I would Villhem!!!

peterb26
01-02-08, 07:48
First post I saw today was the following:-

"Instructor Vacancies for all levels of ability:
Senior Instructors
Keelboat Instructors
Assistant Keelboat Instructors
Powerboat Instructors
Theory Instructors

We are looking for seasonal staff between April & September on a freelance basis.
Pay is from £60 - £80 per day"

damo
01-02-08, 09:05
That is a despicable rate for freelance. It is similar in most outdoor activities though - there are so many young instructors who want to accumulate the logbook time and experience necessay to go further, that they will work for peanuts (and we know what you may get then /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif )

There is a reasonable living to be made later with permanent posts, or at the top end of the qualification scale, eg £200+/day for corporate work, and more for certain mountain guides.

Most of us in that industry started out being paid eff all for working with kids - the very group who require the most able instructors IMO.

alant
02-02-08, 13:06
Some schools now keep the instructors on during the exams!! (I think this is a sign of a good school - the instructor sees the examination process and keeps his instruction relevant and appropriate.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is usually entirely down to the YM Examiner. Most do not want the instructor onboard, while the candidate is being examined.

alant
02-02-08, 13:23
Hear! Hear! Al

If you pay peanuts etc etc

When you have highly demanding clients, would it be fair to them, to land them with an instructor who has an issue with his school regarding 'poor' money? Of course it doesn't! Going that 'little bit extra' as an 'employer', means that you have an instructor with the 'right' attitude to ensure repeat business from satisfied clients.

Would you be successful with demanding corporate clients, if you filled the galley with 'value' supermarket food? Of course not!

Clients these days, demand, demand, demand & rightly so, since they ultimately are paying for it.

All well run schools know this, appreciate what their instructors put into 'their' clients & pay reasonable wages, have good food & content clients.

Anyone who has been on one of Al J's boats, will be aware that the clients are satisfied, because as he pays a reasonable wage (& has well stocked yummy grub).

From a business viewpoint, it gives the odd client who 'might' want to moan, little to hang a complaint onto, hence no reason for any possible refund situation to arise. Its a leisure industry these days, not an outwardbound course.

alant
02-02-08, 13:26
There's a scratchcard being advertised on tele now that has as its top prize a £40k a year salary. If I won that I would consider going back to instructing!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I bought a scratch card the other day, turned out I'd won an 'A' Level

Solitaire
02-02-08, 15:54
Our rates of pay start at £90/day for a newly qualified Level 2 PB instructor and will rise according to qualifications and they are are above a £100/day! The more qualifications they hold the more work they get from us and this ensures we can vary the work. About 98% of our instructors are full time and frankly we prefer it that way.

As a school, our investment is fairly major. We run two boats, we have just forked out £35k for a new rib ( we replace our rib every 2 years)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h15/AliRichardson/Boats/IMGP0028.jpg

Then there is the cost of insurance, office, servicing and the like. All our regular instructors have kit supplied by us - as others have said, yes it's branded but it all costs money.

We make no bones about not being the cheapest about, but we still have to remain competitive. We have a small nucleus of outstanding instructors covering a multitude of disciplines and have a great deal of practical experience who we like to think like working for us. We are also very much into growing our own instructor base so we provide additional training to improve their skills and knowledge.

We supplement teaching work with deliveries, demos, charter and other sources of income such as chandlery and coding consultancy; we also provide courses for commercial operations such as the police, engineering companies, the Environment Agency and even last week, the Irish Navy. A sea school is no different to any other business,it has to make a profit! To do that it must charge to meet it's costs and repay investment. We believe we offer value for money and that it's more than just teaching people to drive boats and build confidence - we are there to protect their investment as well!

john_morris_uk
02-02-08, 21:44
[ QUOTE ]
Some schools now keep the instructors on during the exams!! (I think this is a sign of a good school - the instructor sees the examination process and keeps his instruction relevant and appropriate.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is usually entirely down to the YM Examiner. Most do not want the instructor onboard, while the candidate is being examined.

[/ QUOTE ]Interesting response. I am invited to examine for a variety of schools and although some have mentioned that the instructor is staying on board, I always take the view that its the school's boat and they can choose to pay for extra crew or not. Its not my choice. In fact the instructor usually ends up as head cook and tea maker letting the other candidates/crew get on with sailing the boat. I don't think its in my gift to send him off the boat.