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roly_voya
18-06-08, 19:11
Just been reading the new ed of this classic and can definatly recomend it, lots of good new stuff and anything still in from previouse ed has been thoughly updated. Some of the stuff can be a little scary but for anyone thinking of buying a boat I would say it was essential reading

BobnLesley
19-06-08, 18:23
... I would say it was essential reading...
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I presume this is that Adlard Coles book? If so, I couldn't disagree more.

I read some, actually most of it once and decided it was far too scary and I was better off without knowing.

LadyJessie
19-06-08, 19:03
[ QUOTE ]
Some of the stuff can be a little scary but for anyone thinking of buying a boat I would say it was essential reading

[/ QUOTE ]I couldn't agree more. This is the basic book for anyone thinking of going offshore.

Liz_I
19-06-08, 23:40
Oh well, then maybe it'll keep them away and we'll have half an ocean free!!!!!
Any one who is half competant will not have to worry about these scare mongerers. Have a great time and enjoy your sailing. It's as well to be aware of the possibilties of bad weather but realisticaly if you talk to those who have actiually done it then it's not as scary as you have been led to belive.

LadyJessie
20-06-08, 21:34
[ QUOTE ]
Any one who is half competant will not have to worry about these scare mongerers.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't agree with that. This book is not scare mongering. Things are only scary if you don't know how to handle them. This book illustrates some very good heavy weather techniques and will instil confidence in you if you take the lessons to hart. If you don't; then you might get scared when you get into heavy weather for your first time because you do not have this learned knowledge to apply. The more information you collect, the better off you will be.

webcraft
21-06-08, 00:49
[ QUOTE ]
if you talk to those who have actiually done it then it's not as scary as you have been led to belive.

[/ QUOTE ] Oh yes it is . . .

BobnLesley
21-06-08, 11:34
Quote:
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...If you don't; then you might get scared when you get into heavy weather for your first time...

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On the assumption that we're discussing genuine, rather than Yacht-Club Bar 'heavy weather' then you WILL get scared, irrespective of what you've read beforehand.

Dyflin
21-06-08, 12:02
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you talk to those who have actiually done it then it's not as scary as you have been led to belive.

[/ QUOTE ] Oh yes it is . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely 100% it's as scary as they say, anyone who says different is either lying or has never been out in serious conditions.

PS, had the book on order from Amazon since early Spring!

KellysEye
21-06-08, 18:28
Yes it is scary. In my experience it's not just about knowing what to do, half the battle is knowing how to handle fear and that really comes with experience (of fear). Those who can't handle fear typically freeze or panic, then the trouble really begins because it's usually the second mistake that kills you. You see this sometimes with student parachutists (for example) and inexperienced crew (unless they are dangerous sports folks).

LadyJessie
21-06-08, 18:55
Totally agree, heavy weather is very scary. If you don't get scared; you don't understand what you are up against. The only way to deal with this challenge is to know how to handle it. That reduces the scary part. Hence: read this book or you might get scared and useless in heavy weather, as opposed to scared and focused on solving a problem.

OR4751
21-06-08, 19:32
[ QUOTE ]

On the assumption that we're discussing genuine, rather than Yacht-Club Bar 'heavy weather' then you WILL get scared, irrespective of what you've read beforehand.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a nutshell - nothing takes the edge off that first time (or second, third...)
As long as you're scared, but don't panic... self preservation is a powerful thing.

Liz_I
21-06-08, 22:15
Strangely those who have been out in heavy weather (define-please) do live to tell the tale. Hence the book! Each situation is totally different. I am not knocking the reading BUT with a lot of information many people will be totally put off ocean sailing. Experience and confidence in your vessel is of more use than reading a book and believing that one could cope. Just imagine turning two pages instead of one!!
Yes it's a good book but I stand by my first comments - sorry!Yes we have been there and done it before the snipers take aim.

webcraft
21-06-08, 23:48
[ QUOTE ]
with a lot of information many people will be totally put off ocean sailing. Experience and confidence in your vessel is of more use than reading a book and believing that one could cope.

[/ QUOTE ] I am afraid your comments make no sense whatsoever to me.

By reading about a variety of different experiences - different weather systems, different oceans, different boats and different crews - people are able to prepare themselves and their boats for offshore passages.
Anyone who reads HWS and then is put off ocean sailing isn't equipped for it IMO, and therefore they have done themselves a big favour by reading it.

Another book that I believe everyone should read before they go offshore is Total Loss (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0713687835/nicksmicropages) by Jack Coote.

- W

Liz_I
22-06-08, 22:07
'Anyone who reads HWS and then is put off ocean sailing isn't equipped for it IMO, and therefore they have done themselves a big favour by reading it.'

Precisely!

If one is out sailing in an OCEAN having had a reliable forecast for x no of days & it all goes pear shaped then there is no choice but to cope with the situation. If you know your boat & crews' capabilities you'll be better equiped than reading a book and trying to follow a scenario that might not work for you or the boat.
The publications are important but my point is that it should not be treated as gospel.
No one, unless they are mad, deliberately goes out seeking a gale/storm situation but if it happens, experience, rather than the written word, will be of more help.
Inexperience causes panic, panic causes bad decisions.
Reading a book will not, IMHO, enable you to deal with it. The brain will not suddenly come up with, 'please turn to page 57'!!!
Ducking now dear!!!!

Dyflin
22-06-08, 22:14
TBH, it's a bit of a weak argument. Experience mixed with knowledge will undoubtedly give the best return. If you have some understanding of what is going on or what is likely to happen then you can take steps to avoid or overcome the worst of it.

If one was to follow your rational then one would throw out engine manuals (for example) as it would just be better to strip the engine and see how you get on...

webcraft
22-06-08, 22:15
[ QUOTE ]
if it happens, experience, rather than the written word, will be of more help

[/ QUOTE ] Well yes, but when people go offshore for the first time they will by definition be somewhat short on experience. Having read a few accounts by people who HAVE been there and done it is better than just guessing IMO.

I am still at a loss as to why you choose to knock this particular publication.

- W

Liz_I
22-06-08, 22:38
Perhaps if you read my post you'd realise that I'm not knocking the publication.
In fact your comment actually proves my point!:-)

'Well yes, but when people go offshore for the first time they will by definition be somewhat short on experience'

What an incredibly strange thing to say. Hopefully anyone who goes 'offshore' will have experience or they shouldn't be there.
Define 'offshore' 20 miles from the nearest port? C'mon please be realistic.

jimbaerselman
23-06-08, 07:36
[ QUOTE ]
No one, unless they are mad, deliberately goes out seeking a gale/storm situation but if it happens, experience, rather than the written word, will be of more help.


[/ QUOTE ] I think that statement (I know, taken out of context) defines all long distance ocean racers as mad. I'm quite happy with that conclusion, having raced offshore for 10 years, ending with a brisk Fastnet in the late '70's. Sheer madness.

I'm now sane. But the knowledge gained from those years removed most of the fear from nearly all my susbequent adventures.

It is amazing what a robust boat can withstand. As long as the floorboards are screwed down. Batteries properly secured. Lockers not openable by their flying contents. Washboards secured. Etc. It's a pity that some race boats aren't that robust . . . which is what made me sane enough to give up.

No books could have instilled that sort of first hand knowledge. But they're certainly a very good substitute - and a less risky way of learning.

KellysEye
23-06-08, 15:45
>Hopefully anyone who goes 'offshore' will have experience or they shouldn't be there.

Well, there has to be a first time for everyone and they have every right to be there if they feel capable of handling whatever comes up. We did.

>Define 'offshore' 20 miles from the nearest port?

I'd define it as outside the time period for a a reasonably accurate forecast - which we take to be three days. However, on many offshore passages after sailing for a day it can take two days to get back (upwind, upcurrent). So, in weather forecast terms, effectively you are offshore after twenty four hours sailing - typically one hundred plus miles. At least that's how we view it all.

webcraft
23-06-08, 16:42
[ QUOTE ]
What an incredibly strange thing to say. Hopefully anyone who goes 'offshore' will have experience or they shouldn't be there.

[/ QUOTE ] /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

We had loads of sailing experience prior to our first multi-day passage, but until we crossed Biscay we had never been more than fifty miles from a port of refuge. Consequently we hadn't been out in more than a F6-7 because we are not stupid and didn't ever need to be.

When we crossed Biscay and on subseqent longer (5 - 8 day) passages we knew we ran the risk of encountering substantially stronger winds - and worse sea conditions of course. Are you saying that we should have deliberately taken the boat out in a gale before we left? Should we have waited for some 50 knot winds and 8m waves so we could test our series drogue, or were we correct to make the decision to carry one based on the (written) experience of others?

Thanks, but I would rather read about it and then deal with it when I have to.

- W

Ceirwan
23-06-08, 21:45
I agree with Zigmundo to an extent, i believe that reading is very useful, and can certainly better equip you to deal with situations, but i can also give you a false sense of security.
I believe that by experience he meant confidence in your boat and yourself, having maybe been caught out before or just through many years.

I'm sure the book is very good but i believe branding any publication as 'Essential reading' goes against the ethos of sailing which is independance and common sense and self responsibility, to you it might have been essential reading to others it might not.
I've read a few publications that seem to be written by people with long keeled traditional sea boats, i'm sure they are an excellent reference if you own one, but some of the techniques certainly do not apply to some of the newer designs.

Liz_I
23-06-08, 22:43
'Things are only scary if you don't know how to handle them'
Exactly!
Experience is for sailing experience not for going out to look for bad weather,
It would seem we have a few 'club house sailors' here. Are you deliberately being obtuse?
Again, I am not knocking the publication, it is a valuable insight into how to deal with bad weather. My point is and has always been that a) You shouldn't be there if you do not have sailing experience. b) Have knowledge of your vessel & crews capabilities.
We are not talking of local inshore sailing where if the conditions are too much for you to handle then one can call the rescue services. Out in the Ocean there are precious few options. Dyflin is way off the mark regarding throwing away the engine manual......In the middle of a gale I'm sure he would be perfectly capable of stripping down and rebuilding his engine!.....
Kellyseye Biscay accurate 3-5 day forecasts are available, however, sometimes they are not quite accurate enough.
We've seen quite a few very inexperienced yachties setting off on new & new to them boats with little or no experience. Not of heavy weather but of the whole sailing experience. With the advent of electronic nav etc etc it would appear to be an easy escape from the rat race. Yes reading books is informative and can, in certain cicumstances, be benificial.
Anybody who thinks that by reading a book will enable them to cope with adverse conditions is sorely misguided.

webcraft
23-06-08, 22:52
[ QUOTE ]
i believe that reading is very useful

[/ QUOTE ] Oh goody - a few other people have thought that as well, from the Greeks onwards.

[ QUOTE ]
branding any publication as 'Essential reading' goes against the ethos of sailing which is independance and common sense and self responsibility

[/ QUOTE ] Common sense and self-responsibility involves listening to those who have gone before, rather than reinventing the wheel. IMO refusing to listen to those who have gone gefore is a little arrogant - are you a teenager by any chance?

How you think reading about well-found boats skippered by experienced people that have got into dreadful difficulties due to stress of weather - with some surviving and some not - will bring about a 'false sense of security' is beyond my comprehension. However, as you and Ziggy apparently have nothing to learn you might as well save your money and pop it in the lifeboat box.

Bet you think RYA training is a waste of time as well.

- W

Liz_I
23-06-08, 23:33
Don't understand what your problem is Webcraft.
Sailing is a constant learning curve. According to your bio you've done some long distant ocean sailing. We do read and listen to others and no we are not against the rya training or any publications that highlight problems or situations.
If you wish to be contentious then then that is your choice.

Moodyjim
24-06-08, 01:37
What an interesting debate! Nobody thinks that "reading a book" enables them to cope with adverse conditions but it may certainly help. I'm sure you are a lovely chap really but you are in danger of sounding like a pompous prat.

webcraft
24-06-08, 16:09
<span style="color:white"> . </span>
[ QUOTE ]
If you wish to be contentious then then that is your choice.

[/ QUOTE ] Contentious, moi?

- W