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cmedsailor
14-01-10, 14:12
Sorry if this questions sounds silly to most of you but I am trying to learn the English terminology (English is not my native language).
What is the difference between "bluewater" and "offshore"? Am I correct to believe that both words mean the same? A boat built to cross oceans?
Thanks

PS: Anybody also knows any site that shows the terminology around a sailing boat (you know, pictures and names...)

deep denial
14-01-10, 14:37
Blue water tends to suggest something rather more extended and distant than offshore - which could be applied to a trip across the Channel.

jonjo
14-01-10, 15:14
Offshore means passage making within a predictable 48 hour weather forecast period. Bluewater means longterm self sufficiency and being able to cope with the extreme weather that turbulent topical weather systems can throw at you while away from harbour.

Then to complete the picture there is "high latitude" voyaging.

snooks
14-01-10, 15:39
PS: Anybody also knows any site that shows the terminology around a sailing boat (you know, pictures and names...)

Sounds like you want the Yachtsman's Ten Language Dictionary (http://shop.cruising.org.uk/index.php?crn=52)

parsifal
14-01-10, 16:51
I always assumed (for no reason whatsoever) that 'offshore' meant out of sight of land and 'bluewater' meant crossing oceans.

Tranona
14-01-10, 17:08
Like many made up terms in the English language they do not necessarily have a definitive meaning acceptable to everybody.

There is a sort of heirarchy that is based on the relationship of the bit of water you are on with land. This heirarchy is also used to symbolise the relative demands of sailing (weather, seastate, distance from a safe haven etc.). So you get Inland, Estuary (of rivers leading to sea), Coastal, Off Shore (getting out of sight of land) and Ocean (which covers everything else, but sometimes defined as moving off the continental shelf). Blue Water is a romanticised version of Ocean, although the "Bluest" water is perhaps found in shallow waters such as around coral reefs and sandy shallow water!

The word then gets used for all sorts of other associations - particularly to describe yachts built to withstand any kind of weather. This is despite the fact that (from all accounts) most "ocean" sailing is in benign conditions compared with, say a gale in the English Channel!

Such contradictions are what makes the English language so rich as a means of comunicating ideas and experiences - as well as providing a basis for arguments! (Sorry, debates)

tcm
14-01-10, 18:41
Offshore means passage making within a predictable 48 hour weather forecast period. Bluewater means longterm self sufficiency and being able to cope with the extreme weather that turbulent topical weather systems can throw at you while away from harbour.


Utter rubbish. Offshore is just that - in sea beyond that where coastal effects dominate - and a fair definition is beyond sight of land.

Bluewater certainly means long-term cruising, usually done in warmer climates. But lots of bluewater cruisers rarely if ever go to a harbour - but neither do they risk areas where there is a risk of tropical storms.

"Within a predictable 48 hour weather forecast" eh? Where the heck does this come from? You can get a forecast for anywhere, anytime with satellite/ssb communications.

I supose a "topical" (sic) storm is where someone makes fool comments about current affairs...

jonjo
14-01-10, 19:01
Utter rubbish. ... "topical" (sic) storm is where someone makes fool comments about current affairs...
Have you hit the rum cocktails early today?

tcm
14-01-10, 19:08
Nope, normal time. Shouldn't you be doing some work, hm?

SAWDOC
14-01-10, 19:16
Well offshore is offshore and bluewater is really offshore....

jonjo
14-01-10, 19:22
Nope, normal time. Shouldn't you be doing some work, hm?
Work? Yes good advice, I don't want to get stuck in this wrecked country for ever.

I managed to kick the YBW habit a couple of months ago but a new subscription and the Contessa v. Bav article was the trigger for Jonjo4.

So its time to leave this mad little British online enclave once again, 48 hours is more than enough. Strange how folks concluded I was personally responsible for the decline in Scuttlebutt discussion standards when I had not posted for two months.

BTW You made a complete arse of yourself in the "utter rubbish" post above, any other experienced yachtsman would comprehend my post.

Wandering Star
14-01-10, 19:27
Utter rubbish. Offshore is just that - in sea beyond that where coastal effects dominate - and a fair definition is beyond sight of land.

Bluewater certainly means long-term cruising, usually done in warmer climates. But lots of bluewater cruisers rarely if ever go to a harbour - but neither do they risk areas where there is a risk of tropical storms.

"Within a predictable 48 hour weather forecast" eh? Where the heck does this come from? You can get a forecast for anywhere, anytime with satellite/ssb communications.

I supose a "topical" (sic) storm is where someone makes fool comments about current affairs...I was just about to agree with this post Before I realised it was from TCM and so I feel obliged to disagree.

Cheers, Brian.

jonic
14-01-10, 19:34
So its time to leave this mad little British online enclave once again

:) Didn't exactly cover yourself in glory with your chandlers post, so perhaps not a bad thing.

tcm
14-01-10, 19:36
I meant that...you need to work on your written English, and of course your appalling recent behaviour hereabouts.

You should apologise for your comments in the other thread regarding the Chandlers.

Oh, and i comprehended your post - it was just wrong, see? And I don't consider your couple of coastal weekends per year in the very *cheapest* sub-AWB 30 footer makes you that "experienced", really. This isn't about me, nor about you. But it can be, I suppose....

Salty John
14-01-10, 19:37
I sympathise with the OP's dilemma: I have always considered offshore to be that which is beyond coastal sailing, you can't go home at the end of the day, you have to be self sufficient and capable of handling all conditions. Offshore implies you are at sea, you're on your own to cope with whatever arises. Bluewater, I always thought, was simply a more romantic way of describing offshore - wild blue yonder etc.
Unfortunately the bureaucrats of Europe have made a distinction between Offshore and something they call Ocean. Ocean is, apparantly, tougher than merely Offshore. This distinction is used in categorising boats under the RCD. You can have a boat capable of offshore sailing and one capable of ocean cruising. I'm buggered if I can understand the difference, but there you are. Bluewater is Ocean, offshore is merely not coastal. I think.

jonic
14-01-10, 19:55
Sorry if this questions sounds silly to most of you but I am trying to learn the English terminology (English is not my native language).
What is the difference between "bluewater" and "offshore"? Am I correct to believe that both words mean the same? A boat built to cross oceans?
Thanks

PS: Anybody also knows any site that shows the terminology around a sailing boat (you know, pictures and names...)

There is no hard and fast rule, but generally offshore is used to mean out of sight of land and bluewater to mean extended voyaging across oceans, and usually, but not always, in tropical waters.

Recently Dufour started naming their "Bluewater" range Grand Large which translates to open water.

jonjo
14-01-10, 19:58
I was just about to agree with this post Before I realised it was from TCM
Well since you disagree with me, let me explain.

Inshore:

Falmouth to Helford because it is sheltered from two sides, you are not more than 1 hour form a harbour entrance and you are not going to get struck by an unexpected force 10 storm.

Coastal:

Salcombe to Plymouth because the total passage is going to take 4-5 hours, sheltered water is not more than 2 hours away and the weather is unlikely to deviate by more than 10 kts over forecast and crew fatigue / supplies won't be an issue if the wind picks up.

Offshore:

Portsmouth to Cherbourg? Just counts as offshore I suppose because you loose sight of land for a few hours and you better be prepared to deal with a force 7 no matter what the forecast.

Falmouth to SW Ireland. Upper end of offshore to me. You might not sight land for 24 hours, gotta maintain a pencil plot because you cannot wing it following a total electrical failure. 48 hour weather forecast reliability is still pretty good at the point of departure assuming you can look at a synoptic and read the weather.

If it all goes wrong, you're still within a 12 hour evac to top notch medical care.

Blue Water:

Falmouth to NW Spain? 2 to 3 days from shelter so defo blue water to me but probably a longish offshore passage to a rufty tufty delivery skipper.

Falmouth to the Azures. Blue water to most I suspect. You need a boat and skipper ready to deal with a force 10 because no forecast available at departure can provide a reliable max wind forecast for the whole voyage.

Nico
14-01-10, 20:03
All blue water sailing is offshore, but not all offshore sailing is blue water (or bluewater). As has been said above, bluewater has connotations of tradewind cruising, water makers, steering vanes, beards and ladders up masts, but this isn't part of any definition. Bluewater seems to refer only to cruising, whereas offshore is often used to describe racing (sometimes when it isn't really offshore at all).

tcm
14-01-10, 20:10
Blue Water:

Falmouth to NW Spain? 2 to 3 days from shelter so defo blue water to me but probably a longish offshore passage to a rufty tufty delivery skipper.

Falmouth to the Azures. Blue water to most I suspect. You need a boat and skipper ready to deal with a force 10 because no forecast available at departure can provide a reliable max wind forecast for the whole voyage.


Er no. We're gonna have to stop you there a moment. The islands to which you refer are the "Azores". Not the "Azures". Typo's are allowed - not utter lack of knowledge of basic geography, jeez.

To most people, *none* of your examples are "Blue Water". Partly cos erm, the water thereabouts isn't very blue, see? Jonic's definition of an inherently vague phrase is worth noting.

Meanwhile, we're still awaiting a climbdown re the Chandler's thread, please.

jonjo
14-01-10, 20:19
And I don't consider your couple of coastal weekends per year in the very *cheapest* sub-AWB 30 footer makes you that "experienced", really.
Hmm where did that come from? In the other thread I only insulted early retired rich gits with a personal net worth of +1/2 million and who are sailing around the world in blue water boats. Your comment has insulted 100 times as many.

As to my sailing, it is done on a 35ft 5.8 ton narrow beam rocket with a 2.2m draft and a rig that would drive your mobile cocktail lounge quite well.

Pretty sure my sailing experience puts me in the upper quartile of English Channel skippers.

jonic
14-01-10, 20:26
Re-reading this thread we must be careful not to confuse cmedsailor, and as tcm says these are vague terms.

Cmed if you are interested in the terms because you are looking to buy a boat, "offshore" would not mean no ocean sailing. Bluewater sailing is a rather romanticised term and has nothing to do with storm forces or hours in forecasts.

jonjo
14-01-10, 20:27
Meanwhile, we're still awaiting a climbdown re the Chandler's thread, please.
"We're"!

That would be you and the silent majority who have got bored of the thread in the past 2 hours?

jonic
14-01-10, 20:30
"We're"!

That would be you and the silent majority who have got bored of the thread in the past 2 hours?

No, me as well. You offended a number of people on that thread. Anyhow this thread is about definitions so lets keep it to that.

jonjo
14-01-10, 20:37
The islands to which you refer are the "Azores". Not the "Azures". Typo's are allowed - not utter lack of knowledge of basic geography, jeez.
Either you are too angry today to spot a pun or you lack the cerebral capacity to do so. But keep fuming, it will help me decide.

jonic
14-01-10, 21:05
Either you are too angry today to spot a pun or you lack the cerebral capacity to do so. But keep fuming, it will help me decide.

Puns in a thread asking for help with confusing meanings of some English words by a person with English as his second language. Interesting approach.

tcm
14-01-10, 21:10
Hm, I seem remember jonjo4 was confident about experience etc etc against webcraft too! That ran into the sand eh? Now he's pitchd himself at some other 75percent of channel sailors. haha.

Hint for everyone - it's *always* best avoid the "wild guess" comparisons against other people's boats, wealth, expertise and intelligence on forums. Especially if you're jonjo4...

Heyho, still waiting for jonjo4 to perhaps modify his venomous remarks on the other thread.

Bosun Higgs
14-01-10, 21:38
Sorry if this questions sounds silly to most of you but I am trying to learn the English terminology (English is not my native language).
What is the difference between "bluewater" and "offshore"? Am I correct to believe that both words mean the same? A boat built to cross oceans?


No precise definitions, particularly when it comes to selling a boat!

To me, my own boat is "offshore" at 35 ft and with a category 0 or A depending on system. But to make it a blue water boat is would need to be bigger and to be equipped with things like generator ( hot showers and morning toast) and freezer, all intended to make it possible to live onboard long term.

Don't know what your native language is, but in English anything goes so dont worry. The grammar is vague, spelling is not really important and varies according to the brand of English ( ie American, British, Indian, Ozzie etc) , pronunciation is very definitely not standardised, and words mean different things to different people.

jonjo
14-01-10, 22:47
Hm, I seem remember jonjo4 was confident about experience etc etc against webcraft too! That ran into the sand eh? Now he's pitchd himself at some other 75percent of channel sailors. haha.
You must have missed the posts where we settled that matter. Webcraft indicated he was impressed by my sailing accomplishments.

I doubt 75% of English Channel yachtsmen have covered 1000nm solo miles in the last 3 years the main portion of which was overnight and offshore.


Hint for everyone - it's *always* best avoid the "wild guess" comparisons against other people's boats, wealth, expertise and intelligence on forums. Especially if you're jonjo4...
You cannot hang around on an internet forum for years and expect anonymity. Pretty sure my 880 sq ft rig would get your bijou transatlantic cruise liner shifting. 13 tons? You don't seem to appreciate how much you and others have let slip over the years.


Heyho, still waiting for jonjo4 to perhaps modify his venomous remarks on the other thread.
There an update for you to read but your gander is up and so I am ready for the next TCM broadside.

Jamesuk
15-01-10, 01:15
PS: Anybody also knows any site that shows the terminology around a sailing boat (you know, pictures and names...)

I feel for you, a girl friend who was French found it tough to learn all the names of a boat all over again but in English. As for your question, I cant help I am afraid merely suggest to visit a yacht club with a chap who speaks both languages.

john_morris_uk
15-01-10, 11:30
Pretty sure my sailing experience puts me in the upper quartile of English Channel skippers.Is it just me that finds a comment about where they see themselves in some sort of hierarchy of yachtsmen just a little worrying?

It is also worrying when people quote the size of their rig. Why enter peeing competitions? There will always be someone bigger and stronger than you and what are you proving?

And before anyone quotes my profile and claims that I play the same game, hopefully a few will jump to my defense and agree with me that I can muck things up with the best of them.

The sea is a great leveler - especially when it is green and crinkly... Sharing and learning from one another's experiences is one of the joy of these forums. Relax and think before you post?

fireball
15-01-10, 11:38
I doubt 75% of English Channel yachtsmen have covered 1000nm solo miles in the last 3 years the main portion of which was overnight and offshore.
Er - I know of a few "yachtsmen" who have done double that - but then they don't wander around a forum boasting about being in the "top quartile" ...

Any fool can sail solo - in the right conditions ...

Kelpie
15-01-10, 11:52
"We're"!

That would be you and the silent majority who have got bored of the thread in the past 2 hours?

Me too.

On the actual subject of this thread, I'm reminded of a quote whose origin I forget, but it goes "words don't have meanings, they have uses."

Channel Ribs
15-01-10, 11:55
Am I correct to believe that both words mean the same? A boat built to cross oceans?

I would say that Bluewater is another name for Ocean...

All this ties in nicely with the Recreadional Craft Directive:-

Category Significant Wave Height * Beaufort

A - Ocean Exceeding 4m** Exceeding 8
B - Offshore Up to & including 4m Up to & including 8
C - Inshore Up to & including 2 Up to & including 6
D - Sheltered Up to & including 0.3m Up to & including 4

From: http://www.ceproof.com/recreational_craft_directive.htm

jonjo
15-01-10, 12:31
Is it just me that finds a comment about where they see themselves in some sort of hierarchy of yachtsmen just a little worrying?
The thing that has intrigued me over the past 24 hours is how selective people are with their indignation. Not one admonishment here for TCM who triggered this spat by asserting that people who sail at weekends in piddling cheap boats are not entitled to offer an opinion on the definition of blue water sailing.

For the record in seven years on this forum I had not previously felt the need to quote sailing experience in support of my opinions.

I never cease to be amazed at the capacity of the human animal to commit evil deeds in pursuit of peer group approval.

vyv_cox
15-01-10, 12:33
This may simply be my own simple understanding but I always thought that blue water (no capitals or inverted commas) occurred once off the Continental Shelf?

webcraft
15-01-10, 12:54
The thing that has intrigued me over the past 24 hours is how selective people are with their indignation. Not one admonishment here for TCM who triggered this spat by asserting that people who sail at weekends in piddling cheap boats are not entitled to offer an opinion on the definition of blue water sailing.

For the record in seven years on this forum I had not previously felt the need to quote sailing experience in support of my opinions.

I never cease to be amazed at the capacity of the human animal to commit evil deeds in pursuit of peer group approval.

You still here Jonjo? Thought you were going. Calling TCM evil now? This thread has rapidly gone from the sublime to the ridiculous - I bet cmedsailor is wishing he had never started it. Time to chill for a couple of months and come back as jonjo5 I think.

And blue water sailing is when you are sailing in water that looks blue, right?

- W

jonjo
15-01-10, 13:03
Calling TCM evil now?
The jury is still out on that, but I was referring to the forum lapdogs inside the TCM sphere of influence.

Wandering Star
15-01-10, 13:11
The jury is still out on that, but I was referring to the forum lapdogs inside the TCM sphere of influence.Aaah - you mean the TCM clique thing? If you feel left out, send TCM a PM and ask if you can join, I forget what the joining fee is but at the time I thought it was quite reasonable and no funny handshake to remember.

Cheers, Brian.

silver-fox
15-01-10, 13:49
The thing that has intrigued me over the past 24 hours is how selective people are with their indignation. Not one admonishment here for TCM who triggered this spat by asserting that people who sail at weekends in piddling cheap boats are not entitled to offer an opinion on the definition of blue water sailing.

For the record in seven years on this forum I had not previously felt the need to quote sailing experience in support of my opinions.

I never cease to be amazed at the capacity of the human animal to commit evil deeds in pursuit of peer group approval.

Jonjo

Most forumites don't post comments on spats most of the time, so the truth of the matter is you really do not know who is indignant and who isn't. As you are so astonished lets have a look at your first post on the subject which set the ball rolling and consider following developments.......


"Offshore means passage making within a predictable 48 hour weather forecast period. Bluewater means longterm self sufficiency and being able to cope with the extreme weather that turbulent topical weather systems can throw at you while away from harbour.

Then to complete the picture there is "high latitude" voyaging."

There is no pretence that this delivered as your opinion; it is delivered as a statement of incontrovertible fact but with no supporting evidence or attribution.

To many forumites, particularly those who perhaps disagree with your statement, this will have come across as pompous and inevitably it attracted a flat contradiction from someone, in this case TCM, but most of just sighed and moved quickly on. Some, like little kids in a playground, think "fight fight" and cluster round to watch the action.

If you are going to put yourself on a pedestal as an expert, by making these statements, of course your credentials are going to be challenged but that doesn't mean we agree with TCM's modus operandi either so don't try and turn into some sort of witch hunt and be so scathing of your fellow humans.

Speaking personally, I have found over the years that the real experts don't feel the need to be dogmatic, they are secure in the their knowledge and expertise and are prepared to share it, remaining equally sanguine whether their views are accepted or rejected

Returning to your final comment, many of us here don't give a fig for peer group approval, we read and contribute to the forum because we have a shared interest in the sailing and the sea and enjoy the humour,banter and fellowship. There is no specific interest in you, TCM,or me, so why not move on from a spat that is probably boring everyone who thought they would learn more about the meaning of offshore and bluewater!

Blueboatman
15-01-10, 14:28
So we have someone who is doing loads of sailing,
Someone who has done loads of solo sailing
An unfortunate couple who whilst doing loads of sailing got kidnapped

And a 'Big Blue Wobbly Thing' called the Sea..Can Baldrick reconcile all?

And here's my definition.. Offshore- can go there, without the manufacturer 'reasonably' being sued, if sailed sensibly.
Bluewater-Can really, really go there, is built for the job and costs come secondary to that. But will still break if you push it er unsensibly.

jonjo
15-01-10, 14:55
There is no pretence that this delivered as your opinion; it is delivered as a statement of incontrovertible fact but with no supporting evidence or attribution.
So in the world according to Silver-Fox every reply on this forum must be prefixed with, "imho or I always thought or it seems to me". Because without the such a preamble a post will be deemed to be a pompous statement of fact?

You are really scraping the barrel for contentious subject matter.

webcraft
15-01-10, 14:58
Aaah - you mean the TCM clique thing? If you feel left out, send TCM a PM and ask if you can join, I forget what the joining fee is but at the time I thought it was quite reasonable and no funny handshake to remember.

Cheers, Brian.

No funny handshake? You are obviously not in the inner sanctum then :D

- W

webcraft
15-01-10, 15:05
.
Mike,

The post you are about to make would be easier to read if it was split up into short paragraphs with some white space between them.

(Ducks and runs :D )

boatmike
15-01-10, 15:06
Perfectly logical question which I see has again deteriorated into a welter of abuse. What is the matter with everybody since Christmas? Can't we dissagree without being abusive?
Actually as an old fart I tend to be out of "sync" with a lot of younger forumites and I also believe that the usage of terminology changes, but it USED to be recognised that
"offshore" generally meant within a reasonable (if undefined) distance of shore. After all in common parlence we all understand "3 miles offshore" or "7 miles offshore" so I think it's reasonable to say that most channel or med cruising is generally "offshore" because it's generally possible to reach a port of refuge within a few hours sailing if the weather changes. "Blue Water" is less ambiguous. It's crossing bodies of water where one cannot find a port of refuge within a few hours and need to be able to ride out any weather met en route. In my opinion therefore a true "blue water" passage is potentially more arduous than an "offshore" passage, so I would dissagree that the two terms are synonymous. This however does not mean that a good offshore cruiser cannot also go blue water and as boats get bigger and generally more seaworthy many in fact do very successfully.

Wandering Star
15-01-10, 15:07
No funny handshake? You are obviously not in the inner sanctum then :D

- WI was sent an invitation to join the inner sanctum, well a heartfelt plea really, but pledging 15% of my income over my lifetime to the Impoverished Sailors Fund, a charity administered by TCM himself, seemed a high price to pay for no real additional rewards to that of being an ordinary member - I still receive the same Christmas card as you receive each year although in my case the signatures are printed not handwritten.

Cheers, Brian.

fireball
15-01-10, 15:11
What's the matter with everyone since Christmas? It's the Winter Blues (or is that the Winter Offs) ... Few ppl out sailing so going stir crazy ... just wait till the summer then we can get back to moaning about neighbours in visitor berths & anchors ... ;)

nimbusgb
15-01-10, 16:46
Blue water, but not offshore :)

silver-fox
15-01-10, 17:14
So in the world according to Silver-Fox every reply on this forum must be prefixed with, "imho or I always thought or it seems to me". Because without the such a preamble a post will be deemed to be a pompous statement of fact?

You are really scraping the barrel for contentious subject matter.

Oh dear, I have broken my cardinal forum rule and paid the price.

Anyway that's it from me Jonjo, I am signing off as far as you are concerned and shall leave you alone to try to provoke others - for as long as they will tolerate you.

Bosun Higgs
15-01-10, 18:20
There an update for you to read but your gander is up and so I am ready for the next TCM broadside.

gander is a bird - you want dander :D

Bosun Higgs
15-01-10, 18:31
The original question related to the difference between offshore and blue water boats, not the areas in which such sailing is done.

I dont believe there is a precise difference, but for me the key would be the on board facilities for longer term endurance. As I said earlier, my boat is eminently capable of crossing the oceans but as it is at the moment it is not a blue water boat. It would be a PITA comfort wise, is short of some basic kit like storm sails and water tankage, and needs a genny since I wont tolerate not having a daily hot shower. So its an offshore boat capable of say 2 or 3 days comfortgable endurance between ports.

jonic
15-01-10, 19:01
This may simply be my own simple understanding but I always thought that blue water (no capitals or inverted commas) occurred once off the Continental Shelf?

That's a good point vyv, and now you mention it I remember being told just before my first Biscay crossing to watch for the moment we crossed the edge of the shelf as at that point we would officially be Bluewater Sailors. (and the water was an incredible deep blue.)

I think that would in fact be a good "official" definition.

Offshore- not coastal but still over the continetal shelf.

Bluewater- off the shelf (so to speak)

jonjo
15-01-10, 19:03
gander is a bird - you want dander :D
Dandruff, frothing yeast? No thanks I will stick with hissing geese, seems apt for this context but thanks for the language etymology lesson.

V1701
15-01-10, 19:25
Is it just me that finds a comment about where they see themselves in some sort of hierarchy of yachtsmen just a little worrying?

It is also worrying when people quote the size of their rig. Why enter peeing competitions? There will always be someone bigger and stronger than you and what are you proving?

And before anyone quotes my profile and claims that I play the same game, hopefully a few will jump to my defense and agree with me that I can muck things up with the best of them.

The sea is a great leveler - especially when it is green and crinkly... Sharing and learning from one another's experiences is one of the joy of these forums. Relax and think before you post?

Ditto with the Bav bashing pecking order threads...