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saltylegs
28-02-10, 21:56
ok time to get something biggger and even swmbo says yea.
so about 20K to spend and i need something that sails well and can acommoadate me and mrs and 2 kids.
i fancy sigma 33 have sailled 1 lots and like it.
anyone out there that that can talk me out of it.
p.s. all the stuff about mast step etc. is no problem as i have built a couple of boats before now.

sailorman
28-02-10, 21:58
ok time to get something biggger and even swmbo says yea.
so about 20K to spend and i need something that sails well and can acommoadate me and mrs and 2 kids.
i fancy sigma 33 have sailled 1 lots and like it.
anyone out there that that can talk me out of it.
p.s. all the stuff about mast step etc. is no problem as i have built a couple of boats before now.

Keel matrix & some have had cracked keel flanges

saltylegs
28-02-10, 22:01
Keel matrix & some have had cracked keel flanges

yea i class that as minor stuff
drop the keel and add some stiffening

sailorman
28-02-10, 22:02
yea i class that as minor stuff
drop the keel and add some stiffening

a friend had to have a new keel as the flange cracked :eek:

i helmed Her home from Belgium before i bought my Co32. i had a 26 footer @ the time that was a good trip

saltylegs
28-02-10, 22:21
a friend had to have a new keel as the flange cracked :eek:

i helmed Her home from Belgium before i bought my Co32. i had a 26 footer @ the time that was a good trip

ok have'nt heard of that one before i was thinking more of you guys talking me out out of a sigma 33 in general

sailorman
28-02-10, 22:36
ok have'nt heard of that one before i was thinking more of you guys talking me out out of a sigma 33 in general

good boats normally well sorted but also raced hard with loadsa fancy gear

st599
28-02-10, 23:35
With the spinnaker up on the one I crew on, the bog door won't shut.

michael_w
01-03-10, 08:05
Poor galley layout, the only worktop is the lid of the cool box. Mast compression can lead to the head door getting stuck. Cast iron keel a constant maintainance chore. As with most Thomas designs, the rudder is too small and the ballast a bit light.

Many examples, some of which will have been well thrashed.

sailorman
01-03-10, 08:14
Morning Michael:D

webcraft
01-03-10, 09:12
.
Sails well, cramped forepeak so no good double berth.

- W

Quandary
01-03-10, 09:28
Usual slagging off and uncorroborated rumours, almost like the anti. Bav lot.
I owned, raced and cruised one for seven years and would still be tempted to go back. Nothing wrong with the keel rudder or set up for anyone who can sail. The keel is iron right enough but how many boats with lead keels are available for 20k, lots of modern Benes. Bavs etc have iron. They are better than most yachts from the seventies, robustly built and able to take the hard usage that many get in one design racing. There is not a better boat from the period. My family cruised in ours for weeks at a time and always enjoyed it and it was good to know that you had a real sea boat under you. Look at how long owners tend to keep them, mine has now been with its new owner for fifteen years, the one my son sometimes crews on has been in the same family for about 25. Pay no attention to the dodgy keel nonsense it come from people who saw a photo once on this forum and is an isolated case.
The mast heel does depress on boats trying to compensate for duff sails with massive prebend but this is obvious and easily remedied. Several hundred built so plenty to choose from, but don't buy the underpowered MH version despite the cheaper price, it because very few people want them.

sailorman
01-03-10, 09:42
Usual slagging off and uncorroborated rumours, almost like the anti. Bav lot.
I owned, raced and cruised one for seven years and would still be tempted to go back. Nothing wrong with the keel rudder or set up for anyone who can sail. The keel is iron right enough but how many boats with lead keels are available for 20k, lots of modern Benes. Bavs etc have iron. They are better than most yachts from the seventies, robustly built and able to take the hard usage that many get in one design racing. There is not a better boat from the period. My family cruised in ours for weeks at a time and always enjoyed it and it was good to know that you had a real sea boat under you. Look at how long owners tend to keep them, mine has now been with its new owner for fifteen years, the one my son sometimes crews on has been in the same family for about 25. Pay no attention to the dodgy keel nonsense it come from people who saw a photo once on this forum and is an isolated case.
The mast heel does depress on boats trying to compensate for duff sails with massive prebend but this is obvious and easily remedied. Several hundred built so plenty to choose from, but don't buy the underpowered MH version despite the cheaper price, it because very few people want them.

one contributor had done the Atlantic Circuit in a Co 33 2 up he knows a bit about small boat sailing ;)

vyv_cox
01-03-10, 09:48
I have never owned one but we seriously considered buying one for its sailing performance, and spent a long time looking over one at a boat show. We were put off by fairly small accommodation for a boat of its size, poor double berth arrangement and lightly built furniture. At the time we sailed a Westerly GK29 and reckoned the size below was almost exactly the same. So not a boat for extended cruising, IMHO, but excellent for shorter, perhaps a little more spartan, trips.

Twister_Ken
01-03-10, 10:53
Sail like a dream, but a bit cheap'n'nasty below - however if you have the skills that could be sorted.

Interesting article about a year back in one if the comics about a student who bought a very sad one with his student loan, took it home to the farm, completely rebuilt it to transatlantic spec and sailed (and finished) the Jester challenge. Worth tracking down coz he did a very good looking and creative job - some hints and tips there.

(often come with a shed full of blown racing sails!)

Quandary
01-03-10, 11:23
Sail like a dream, but a bit cheap'n'nasty below - however if you have the skills that could be sorted.

(often come with a shed full of blown racing sails!)

Marine Projects who built them used the same stuff as they did for Moodys even down to the upholstery patterns, most seem to be able to stand up to 30 years of racing with all the abuse that that can involve, what particularly was 'cheap and nasty'?

Twister_Ken
01-03-10, 12:13
Well, I remember curtains not doors, no lipping on locker doors and cut-outs, stainless steel hand holds below, no corner cushions on settees, for e.g.

Oh and no teak in the cockpit, just hard, slidey GRP.

nct1
01-03-10, 13:03
Am an owner so very biased obviously.

The keel, does not have to take much time if you prepare it well, and find the right paint, a good quality garage floor paint is cheap and better than anything "marine" I have used to date.

Rudder is excellent, steers like a dream (really don't understand the comment), check the stock bearings when viewing, though not the end of the world if they need replacing.

The door closing with the mast up is a good test respecting compression, but of course it is fixable and a way of reducing the purchase price. Mine does not suffer from this.

Mine has teak hand holds, there are doors instead of curtains, and originally had a teak grating on the cockpit floor.

Galley is not the biggest, but have no problem catering for 4.

However, the downsides are as follows

1. Accommodation, really a lot of wasted space aft, modern boats will have a double berth in the same space.

2. Nowhere convenient to store a dinghy aft.

3. For 20K it is going to be 30ish years old, you will need to have an equipment replacement budget (which may average out at 1500 pa if you factor in a new engine) and time to do it.

If my budget was 20K and I had time and money to keep it in shape, then it is a fine boat, we have never regretted the purchase on that basis.

If you had more money, a modern boat would need less upkeep and have better space.

The only question is, for 20K could you get anything better of that size.

Quandary
01-03-10, 13:09
Well, I remember curtains not doors, no lipping on locker doors and cut-outs, stainless steel hand holds below, no corner cushions on settees, for e.g.

Oh and no teak in the cockpit, just hard, slidey GRP.

Aye right, rubbish boat then, stainless steel handrails at the companionway, none of it gold or even silver plated, how can that be regarded as functional. So far anything you mention would be visible to a prospective purchaser, and if it has lasted the thirty odd years perhaps it might even have been suitable for purpose. I would prefer good functional design to a floating caravan but then thats where we differ is it not?

Twister_Ken
01-03-10, 13:29
Aye right, rubbish boat then, stainless steel handrails at the companionway, none of it gold or even silver plated, how can that be regarded as functional. So far anything you mention would be visible to a prospective purchaser, and if it has lasted the thirty odd years perhaps it might even have been suitable for purpose. I would prefer good functional design to a floating caravan but then thats where we differ is it not?

Ah me. Did I ever say it was rubbish? Boat was built to a price. Nothing wrong with that as the sales figures proved. But there are things that a competent craftsman could improve on, given time, energy and desire. And with the boat's undoubted performance and sailing pleasure, worth spending time on, in both senses. A well-sorted, un-tired ∑33 would be a jewel.

Bav34
01-03-10, 13:54
It's a funny old world ... or forum :)

I was just getting ready to post my two-penneth as I raced successfully on a 33 for many years. Found them fast, safe, well able to stand up to a blow but as we were always 'on the edge' we were never far from wipe-outs and collisions. We were actually in the protest room three times ... in one race!! Won two ... lost one:(

We often exceeded 10 knots but as QUANDARY tells me this is impossible in my 35'7'' boat it can't be true.:D

Then TK who isn't a fan of my boat either, lists things that he thinks lets a Sigma down because they are lacking ... but my boat has them all :)

Hey ho.

I would be happy to own a Sigma 33 with all the caveats re has it had a hard life and what is the state of the sails/engine etc.

To my mind it falls between boats that trade lots of space below for ultimate sailing performance and those that are cramped down below but perhaps give you a pay back in a genuine F7.

And how many times are people out in those?

Happy days:)

woodstock
01-03-10, 14:33
Ken's right - he won the OSTAR last year - just searched and looks like you can download the article free forma link in the article.... http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/406255/sigma-33-in-ostar-podium-position

flaming
01-03-10, 14:47
[QUOTE=Bav34;2436475]

To my mind it falls between boats that trade lots of space below for ultimate sailing performance and those that are cramped down below but perhaps give you a pay back in a genuine F7.

QUOTE]

Well put. Though I would add that "racier" designs also have a huge benefit in the light stuff too.
Any old blob with a stick and a few rags can make decent progress in a perfect 15 knots, the mark of a real sailing boat (of which the Sigma 33 is a great example from its era ) is to sail well in less than 10 knots and more than 25.

It's up to the individual what they put more value too, interior comfort, sailing performance or low price. You can have any 2 of three...

BlowingOldBoots
01-03-10, 15:05
Used one as a training boat for an RYA Sea School. It was sailed hard from March to November for 5 years, fractional rig version. It lasted well and held up without falling apart. Great boats and great value today. Fast in light airs as well as in a good blow. The fast speed in light airs was important because the wind speed in the summer on the West Coast and Firth of Clyde is predominantly F3 or less and the big main made manoeuvres under sail a joy.

Handling under sail and power is excellent. You can throw them around like a dinghy but with the stability of a keel boat. I never had an issue with the short rudder. In fact tooting along in reverse was very easy as the load on the tiller was never huge at at a couple of knots, unlike the OOD34 which batted you across the cockpit if you were not prepared.

I frequently had 5 people on her for a week which was tough but not impossible by far. The twin fore peak berths was never an issue but the pilot berth was restricted on width. The school had a high return rate of students so they obviously didn't mind the space!

As usual, inspect thoroughly for a boat of this age and in addition to the survey make a sail and motor a precondition of sale.

Quandary
01-03-10, 18:10
Bav
I think you might be mis representing me above, I have never said that sailboats could not achieve more than 10 knots, just that they need to be long to maintain it. Surfing speed is only limited by the waves, not hull length. The Sigma 33 I raced was claimed to achieve 17.5 kts late one night on a big wave in the Ramharry Race but I was at the chart table below worrying about clearing the lighthouse, when the shout came down. When I went up the speed never reached 16 though we had the big kite up and the waves were massive. The helmsman and my son who was trimming still swear they did it to this day. The problem with big fast waves is that you can not stay on them for too long. We have managed over 8 kts for reasonable periods by climbing on the wave of very large boats as they pass but again if they are much quicker they dont pull a strong enough wave. I understood that you claimed that your boat travelled steadily at more than 8 kts. and if I recall you were two up and not even flying your kite, I still think if you can maintain that speed you are some helmsman, wasted in a Bavaria!

doug748
01-03-10, 19:55
The only question is, for 20K could you get anything better of that size.

Just so.

The OSTAR bloke did an excellent job, both the renovation and the sailing.

Resolution
01-03-10, 20:32
Like so many others, I owned and raced one in the Solent for several years. Bought for 30,000, sold for 29,000. Fantastic value for money, tough and reliable, still one of the better looking boats around. If I was twenty years younger I would be tempted to buy one again. Might have to refurb the cosmetic bits, but most hulls are still looking excellent, and those that have been raced well will have had much of the running rigging replaced.

saltylegs
02-03-10, 17:52
Ok
You havn't talked me out of it and its time to start making a short list of available boats

ta ta:)

Quandary
02-03-10, 19:10
But, but, but; they are 'cheap and nasty' and they all have iron keels with cracks in them, don't you listen to the experts on here?.

I told my wife that someone on here described our much loved Sigma 33 as ' cheap and nasty'
she said 'Oh dear, all that time and I never noticed it, which Swan does he sail?'

Twister_Ken
02-03-10, 19:21
"which Swan does he sail?'"

Tee-hee.

Most of the time it was a 411, but also a 46 and a 57!

LeonF
02-03-10, 19:40
My first boat was a Fantasie 19. Did Day Skipper on a Sigma 38. Fell in love with it, so bought a 33. Surveyor said that it was simple but strongly built. Spoke to a guy who sold Jeanneaus and raced a Sigma 33. Said you could have a collision without too much harm, the J all the internal fittings would break. Yes it hasn't got the home comforts of more modern boats, but it sails like a dream, though it can be a touch heavy downwind. I could leave Gravesend, have lunch in Queenborough and get home the same day. I often sailed her on her own. Mine had had osmosis twice, so had an extra layer of laminate the second time. When I sold her the only problem was weeping around the keel flange which was sorted by lifting her off and rebedding the keel. Check the water tanks, GRP moulded, some may have reverse osmosis, mine had liners. Also the aft deck hull join.. some of the overlap can be short and may need reglassing. Why did I sell her.. because she was too big for me, and I wanted something I could single hand into a marina with confidence. If you buy one private me and I will tell you who my surveyor was and I still have loads of info I can send you.. magazine articles etc.

contessaman
02-03-10, 21:04
[QUOTE=BlowingOldBoots;2436526] In fact tooting along in reverse was very easy as the load on the tiller was never huge at at a couple of knots, unlike the OOD34 which batted you across the cockpit if you were not prepared.
QUOTE]

Ha Ha! you're sooo right!

when I first bought my OOD34 she was in dartmouth. I remember giving it hell in reverse to get out of the berth against a strongish current - I was worried about the folding prop not opening properly. Anyway, having achieved some speed in reverse I moved the helm about an inch off centre, the rudder bit and that enourmous tiller, catching me off my guard, threw me off my feet and I damn nearly ended up in the drink. What an embarrassment!

Its actually very manoueverable in astern but you do need to be ready for it and have an extra weetabix;)

Re: sigma 33. Never been on one but raced against plenty and they seem to give good account for themselves in all conditions. I guess in a way it was ahead of its time -especially the fractional rigged one, when you compare it to most IOR influenced boats of the era.

As for your shortlist, have you thought about an OOD? Its got a hell of a lot more room down below and its faster if a little more of a handful to sail. (Plus a lead keel)theres one for sail on boatshed for about 25K.

MGRS 34 a good boat too. Again most have been thrashed but If you are confident about keel matrix strenghtening etc. Buy one of these and you would have enough change from 20K to get to work with the teak faced ply. I used to race on one of these out of Lymington. That boat was stripped out but I have seen one on the bristol channel that was really nice down below.

In the same vein, some of the Stephen Jones' designed Hustlers could be bought cheaply and made more lavish down below..

Quandary
03-03-10, 10:30
"which Swan does he sail?'"

Tee-hee.

Most of the time it was a 411, but also a 46 and a 57!

She resolutely refuses to come on here so I had to tell her your response,
Quote ' thought so, he IS a boat snob then'.
She is really pleased with how perceptive she has proved herself to be.

saltylegs
14-04-10, 23:59
ok time to end thread
thanks guys you could'nt talk me out of it
i have just completed purchase on a sigma 33 and am looking forward to getting her home.
she does need work done but I have been there before and have had a very thorough survey done by David Hopkins (this guy knows sigmas)
ta ta :)

Twister_Ken
15-04-10, 00:09
Brilliant - have fun!