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View Full Version : Stern too Mooring warp chafe - Greece



Chris_Robb
03-11-11, 15:03
On the rough Greek concrete quays with Reinforcing bar hoops for mooring to, we get significant wear in the mooring lines - always in the same place and righ in the middle. in order to keep the warps undamaged, I am going to try the following method.

Note that any method used must allow you to leave in the hurry when bad weather arrives at 3AM (or the port police!)

Place the LIZARD - a loop of old but strong warp round the mooring hoop, and attach you lines to the lizard as per photos below - simple

This is a bit more of a paraphernalia than just running the lines as normal, but at least you wont ruin your lines with a deep chafe right in the middle.

dmmbruce
03-11-11, 15:07
Looks good, and simple. Thanks. I have seen it done with chain too.

Now you will need to start a thread about what knot to use to tie the 'Lizard'. :D :D :D

(I have never heard that term before.)

Mike

Cariadco
03-11-11, 15:22
Now you will need to start a thread about what knot to use to tie the 'Lizard'.


Oooooooohhhhhhh...Good 'un.

Chris_Robb
03-11-11, 17:26
Now you will need to start a thread about what knot to use to tie the 'Lizard'.


Oooooooohhhhhhh...Good 'un.

Noooooooo. not that lizzard!

By the way, the idea came courtesy of Barry Edwards of Boat Ropes
the source of very good, and very competitively priced warp, and someone who knows what he is talking about.

Tel 01606 888154.

BobnLesley
03-11-11, 18:34
Alternatively, just thread a 30cm length of plastic pipe over each mooring line, then after adjusting your lines, centralise it where the mooring line passes through the re-bar hoop

Chris_Robb
04-11-11, 11:06
Alternatively, just thread a 30cm length of plastic pipe over each mooring line, then after adjusting your lines, centralise it where the mooring line passes through the re-bar hoop

That also would work, but needs to be pretty flexible.... From your experiance, does the pipe stay in place, or does it tend to work its way up the rope?

ccscott49
04-11-11, 12:19
I use chain, I find it useful for lots of different quays, bollards, rings etc.

KenMcCulloch
04-11-11, 13:01
Long ago I learned to use the term 'lizard' to describe a rope strop anything from say 1-3m long, with a hard spliced eye in one end. Used so you can shackle (for example) your warp to a mooring buoy and avoid chafe on the warp. Similar purpose but a slightly differnt kind of lizard.

Chris_Robb
04-11-11, 13:06
I use chain, I find it useful for lots of different quays, bollards, rings etc.

I also have some big mooring ropes with springs, but you would have to leave them behind in an emergency exit, as you would the chains. So too the lizard, but thats made out of scrap rope.

CharlesSwallow
04-11-11, 13:37
If you're two handed in the usual configuration of wife on the windlass & you at the helm, how do you go back for the lizards when in most places in Greece, someone else is probably waiting for your slot as soon as you leave it and certainly by the time the anchor is up, cleaned and stowed someone will be lining up to take it. Perhaps you intend to remove the lizards and hang on to the rings directly for a few minutes before slipping. This will become tedious and risks being bounced onto the quay when you slacken your chain to do it just as a tripper boat goes by, I would suggest and it won't be long before you abandon the grand plan!

Few places have those rough bare steel rings as most have now been replaced with stainless rings bought with EU money.

No wonder your friend who sells rope has recommended the scheme - he will be selling a lot of rope in 1metre lengths it seems to me.

If you want to avoid chafe then a couple of short links of chain, two snapshackles and an eye spliced into the end of each warp is a better way to go.

My warps are 22mm braid and because the load is spread over a greater bearing surface the don't seem to suffer from chafe too badly. Octoplait on the other hand is particularly prone to it as you are usually holding only two of the constituent strands against the ring.

My home berth warps are three strand of the same diameter with a plastics tube protecting it where it is tied into a bowline through the pontoon rings - been fine for over 7 years now.

Anyway, isn't "Lizard" a bloody silly name for a strop? Smacks of those who feel the need to impress by trying to convey the image of a really experienced old salt "brought up before the mast", don't you think?

Chas

Chris_Robb
04-11-11, 16:41
See answers in Red


If you're two handed in the usual configuration of wife on the windlass & you at the helm, how do you go back for the lizards when in most places in Greece, someone else is probably waiting for your slot as soon as you leave it and certainly by the time the anchor is up, cleaned and stowed someone will be lining up to take it.

Only left behind in a emergency exit. remember they are made of scrap warp, so totally expendable.

Perhaps you intend to remove the lizards and hang on to the rings directly for a few minutes before slipping. This will become tedious and risks being bounced onto the quay when you slacken your chain to do it just as a tripper boat goes by, I would suggest and it won't be long before you abandon the grand plan!

wont need to slacken chain - access by pasarel, so no problem - wont take long either

Few places have those rough bare steel rings as most have now been replaced with stainless rings bought with EU money.

Not sure what part of Greece you sail, but rough bar more prevelant than nice stainless steel rings

No wonder your friend who sells rope has recommended the scheme - he will be selling a lot of rope in 1metre lengths it seems to me.

Not my friend and also he told me to use up my scrap.

If you want to avoid chafe then a couple of short links of chain, two snapshackles and an eye spliced into the end of each warp is a better way to go.

So you want to leave in a hurry at 3am. You have to leave them behind. I already have this, and I would not dream of using SNAP SHACKLES

My warps are 22mm braid and because the load is spread over a greater bearing surface the don't seem to suffer from chafe too badly. Octoplait on the other hand is particularly prone to it as you are usually holding only two of the constituent strands against the ring.

Agreed - Octoplat not suitable

My home berth warps are three strand of the same diameter with a plastics tube protecting it where it is tied into a bowline through the pontoon rings - been fine for over 7 years now.

Anyway, isn't "Lizard" a bloody silly name for a strop? Smacks of those who feel the need to impress by trying to convey the image of a really experienced old salt "brought up before the mast", don't you think?
Charles, why are you so objectionable?
Chas

CharlesSwallow
04-11-11, 23:23
See answers in Red

Don't want to give the dear people bad advice, do I?

Chas

Niall1975
05-11-11, 05:05
We've been in the Ionian all year and can't say ive seen anything but rings or bollards.

Personally i think the hose would be the way ahead but each to his own as they say.

Niall

MapisM
05-11-11, 06:02
Note that any method used must allow you to leave in the hurry when bad weather arrives at 3AM (or the port police!)
In decades of boating, I've never thought of arranging my mooring lines based on such contingencies. In fact, they never materialised.
It seems to me that you'd better choose more carefully your berths, if you can't stay put with bad weather.
Not to mention if the police can move you out... :confused:
Is that normal in Greece?

Blue5
05-11-11, 07:59
Amazing, I would never have believed what appears to be a cruiser offering a tip on tying up a boat can generate shall we say "tension' among forumites.

MapisM
05-11-11, 08:59
"tension' among forumites.Wazzat? If my post came through that way, I apologise, that definitely wasn't my intention.
Just genuinely curious.

Chris_Robb
05-11-11, 09:40
In decades of boating, I've never thought of arranging my mooring lines based on such contingencies. In fact, they never materialised.
It seems to me that you'd better choose more carefully your berths, if you can't stay put with bad weather.
Not to mention if the police can move you out... :confused:
Is that normal in Greece?

Now this is really interesting! You have been very lucky it has not happened at some point.

How many people here have had to leave in the middle of the night through a change in the weather?

Its happened only once to us, in Vathi in Sifnos, in the Cyclades. It is a deep landlocked bay with the entrance facing South West. At 3 am the swell coming into the entrance was becoming untenable on the little quay to the north of the bay (Rod the God describes the bay as bullet proof). We left with little trouble by just slipping the warps. There was only a gentle breeze from the northwest. There was no swell forecast.

I always take considerable care in considering an anchorage - but you can always get caught out, as in Vliho bay, a supposedly dead safe bay. Your comment does not read well, looking like you are calling me a poor seaman for getting into a situation by my bad judgement. I am sure you did not mean it!

Another cause for having to leave suddenly is perhaps that your neighbour is dragging his anchor on to you.....

jimbaerselman
05-11-11, 11:16
In decades of boating, I've never thought of arranging my mooring lines based on such contingencies. In fact, they never materialised.
It seems to me that you'd better choose more carefully your berths, if you can't stay put with bad weather.
Not to mention if the police can move you out... :confused:
Is that normal in Greece?
It can happen anywhere. Given settled weather and a good forecast, it's perfectly reasonable to anchor somewhere with exposure, as long as you have an exit plan if unexpected winds arise. Chris proposes a quick exit procedure - enables him to use more risky quaysides. Good idea.

Until, of course, a numpty parks end on, two deep outside you.

That happened to us in Fiscardo once in 2002. Place was full, but the port police received warning of sudden southerly winds (happens a couple of times a year there in settled weather). We were tucked safely behind the tiny jetty on the south side of the entrance. No problem there. But all the craft along the north shore and on the west pontoons were advised to leave the harbour quickly (this was at about 18:00).

Half the boats ignored the warning, half left. Sure enough, come 20:00 the wind hit. Those who'd ignored the warning were bucking against their anchors, dragging, engines running, all trying to leave at once. Chaos. Worse, a flotilla was briefed to cross to the quaysides and double park end on. They ended up triple parking. Locked in, there was no escape for us. A late arrival cut our anchor warp with his prop; luckily I'd laid the kedge too as soon as the double parking started.

Mashed pushpit (we were bows to), burst fenders, about 15 cm taken off one corner of the after deck.

So our quick exit routine was numptied . . . we should have left with that first port police warning.

MapisM
05-11-11, 12:50
Your comment does not read well, looking like you are calling me a poor seaman for getting into a situation by my bad judgement.
I am sure you did not mean it!I absolutely didn't, and can only renew my apologies: that definitely wasn't the idea.
You know, even if my English grammar is not too bad (I hope), it's still a foreign language for myself, and this makes it difficult to anticipate whether a comment, as you say, will "read well" or not.

That said, I'm a bit puzzled.
Both yourself and jimbaerselman are now talking of anchoring, which is not what you normally do within a marina/harbour.
Indeed I had to pull the hook and move elsewhere, sometimes in the middle of the night, due to poor weather forecasts. I can remember of a couple of times when it was also somewhat scary, with the boat (mind, all the 35 tons of her!) jumping up and down more than one meter, spray all over the bow, and 50m or so of chain to recover.
But I wasn't tied stern to, just anchored in some bays. So, the only problem was to pull the anchor.
I can't think of any Med marina, among those I've visited, where if worse comes to worst it would be better to move in the middle of the chaos.
Otoh, maybe that's the case in Greece, I don't know - hence my question.

Anyhow, at the end of the day, even if I can see the rationale behind your suggestion, I would rather stick to my usual setup - chains, as others mentioned. If and when I would actually experience the conditions you mention - hopefully never, fingers crossed :) - I can always leave lines, springs and chains behind me, and return to pick them up afterwards...

jimbaerselman
05-11-11, 14:28
Both yourself and jimbaerselman are now talking of anchoring, which is not what you normally do within a marina/harbour.
Greece is different! It has only about 15 to 20 "marinas" in the sense that most West Med sailors understand. But it has many hundreds of quaysides to which you moor bows or stern to - using your own anchor. One of Greece's eccentricities . . . too many islands and too few yachts to have a marina on each, or even lazy lines leading to a mooring. But then, most quaysides don't collect harbour fees.

little_roundtop
05-11-11, 15:07
I fully agree with Jim's last comment here. I'm currently wintering on the island of Crete; the largest of the Greek islands and the fifth largest in the entire Mediterranean. There is only one good marina here and three other ports with pontoons and lazy lines (though one is unsafe in strong northerlies and the other two are mostly full of local boats - normal stuff in Greece).

Anchor down and stern-to a concrete quay is the norm in Greece. My view on leaving a stern-to berth in a hurry though is that if I am so afraid for the safety of my boat that I need to leave that quickly I'd just dump my lines on the quay and go. Yes they are expensive but they're a sight cheaper than the cost of the boat!

In 7 years cruising in Greece and Turkey I've never had to leave a stern-to quay in that much of a hurry. As Jim mentioned, the locals generally know if unsafe weather is coming and they will let you know that you should leave now. If you ask them nicely they will also tell you where to go to be safe in the expected weather.

MapisM
05-11-11, 17:05
Greece is different!
...
I see, thanks for your explanations.
I guess I'll stick to my current boating grounds for another decade or so, thank you!
We just had a sustained F8 SE (which is the worst direction in my marina, the only one which builds up some waves) wind, for most of last night and this morning.
We still slept nicely, and spent the morning onboard, checking emails and making phone calls! :)

Caladh
06-11-11, 10:38
...nice that you able to afford your marina space in Italy !

Chris_Robb
06-11-11, 10:45
I absolutely didn't, and can only renew my apologies: that definitely wasn't the idea.
You know, even if my English grammar is not too bad (I hope), it's still a foreign language for myself, and this makes it difficult to anticipate whether a comment, as you say, will "read well" or not.

That said, I'm a bit puzzled.
Both yourself and jimbaerselman are now talking of anchoring, which is not what you normally do within a marina/harbour.
Indeed I had to pull the hook and move elsewhere, sometimes in the middle of the night, due to poor weather forecasts. I can remember of a couple of times when it was also somewhat scary, with the boat (mind, all the 35 tons of her!) jumping up and down more than one meter, spray all over the bow, and 50m or so of chain to recover.
But I wasn't tied stern to, just anchored in some bays. So, the only problem was to pull the anchor.
I can't think of any Med marina, among those I've visited, where if worse comes to worst it would be better to move in the middle of the chaos.
Otoh, maybe that's the case in Greece, I don't know - hence my question.

Anyhow, at the end of the day, even if I can see the rationale behind your suggestion, I would rather stick to my usual setup - chains, as others mentioned. If and when I would actually experience the conditions you mention - hopefully never, fingers crossed :) - I can always leave lines, springs and chains behind me, and return to pick them up afterwards...

Hi - no offence taken, but it just shows you how easy it is the be taken the wrong way on these forums!!!!

In term of anchoring, as Jim says, its using your own anchor stern too. So you have lots of potential risks, - bad holding (I avoid) the boat next door badly anchored etc etc, so I feel that it is necessary always to have an exit plan, hopefully never needed.

I must say, I always feel much safer free swinging on an anchor.

ccscott49
06-11-11, 11:23
To be honest in Greece (ionian islands) we tend to anchor out everywhere, prefering that to the melee in nice ports. I have a nice big rib in davits, so use that to go to town, dont need water, make my own and dont need leccy either, so anchoring out is the way to go for us. With just the two of us and 57' its the way to go.

MapisM
06-11-11, 11:26
...nice that you able to afford your marina space in Italy !Well, yes of course, but you'd be surprised by the cost range you can find around here for marina spaces.
There are a few which are even less expensive than mine, but also others which are as much as 10 times dearer! :eek:

MapisM
06-11-11, 11:30
I always feel much safer free swinging on an anchor.+2 (I also agree with ccscott on his other views).
No experience of Greece yet, but that's what I did 90% of the time during my Croatian years.

KellysEye
06-11-11, 16:45
>Alternatively, just thread a 30cm length of plastic pipe over each mooring line

That's what we do if you mean plastic water pipe. We also drill two holes at each end of the pipe, run nylon cord through the holes and tie the cord round the rope - it stops the pipe slipping. We do the same for all warps coming in through fairleads.