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vas
04-06-12, 10:47
a long due update on paint stripping.

14th H:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt2/paintremoval_fb_stbrd_14h.jpg

15th H:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt2/paintremoval_fb_stbrd_15h.jpg

16th H:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt2/paintremoval_fb_stbrd_16h.jpg

17th H finished off :
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt2/paintremoval_fb_stbrd_17h_a.jpg

and cleaned around the windscreen frame:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt2/paintremoval_fb_stbrd_17h_b.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt2/paintremoval_fb_stbrd_17h_c.jpg

The holes with the flat screwheads are ok, bronze original woodscrews, recessed that need proper filling. I'll add new ss screws in the intervals for good measure.


So, finished in 17h and have an extra h for the far back of the stbrd side, over the aft deck which I've not done yet and will tackle together with the aft sliding door fram and pillars. I guess will be 5h in total and it will need an extra eve or so in repairing rotten ply. But that's going to be done after I remove the arch remove the supports for it and check the condition of the underlying plywood.

A couple of days ago, I started stripping the sundeck. Weather was cr4p (either raining or too hot) so I chose a hot day and started work at 7pm. Clear skies, moon lit deck and me scrapping, did look very odd I can tell you and the poor security guy that came in for his check at half twelve was very confused and didn't believe his eyes... I had bought a 45W economy (250W normal) E27 bulb for a nice worksite light assembly on a light alloy tripod and used that throughout. Nice and cool at 20-22C I worked till 1:00AM and managed 1/6 of the deck :eek:
There are a few coats of paint that strip v.quickly but the undercoat is a b1tch to remove/sand off. Anyway, reasonable progress, weather is meant to be stabilising on the 27-34C range and becoming dry (haven't had a drop for 4 days now) so I should be able to work and do some priming and patching soonish.


http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/paintremoval_sundeck_1.jpg


http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/paintremoval_sundeck_2.jpg


http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/paintremoval_sundeck_3.jpg


Also made good progress on the BMS (building management system) smart home automation hardware that I'm installing. I'll post one of the next few days the layout and what I'm going to be controlling from the system for feedback from you lot.
ATM, main bus cable from the new el.panel to the controller is connected and routed through the original canals, 4 (out of 16) lights are wired up to the system and functioning, need to change cable routing (when necessary) and add new signal cables for light switches, toggles, motion sensors, bilge alarm floaters, smoke sensors in e/r and living space, magn. contacts for salon sliding door, etc. Not a trivial task, but definitely manageable (and minor compared to wiring my 250sqm home when it was rebuilt 8yrs ago...)and one of the tasks that I can do when it's too hot to work outside.

Also with the route from the main el.panel to the f/b all revealed and accessible, I can sort out the cabling mess on the f/b, remove/recycle detroit engines original cabling for my extra lighting/sensor/etc needs and be ready for the redesign of the f/b helm area.

Enough for today, still recovering from a two day camping by the sea and under the sun :o

cheers

V.

Divemaster1
12-06-12, 08:11
V..

Have a look here.. Some pictures which may be of value for you...

http://www.thinkyachts.com/listing1615/jcl-mirage-43-yacht/

vas
14-06-12, 07:35
Alf, thanks for the pointer, similar sized, similar layout some different approaches to what goes where, so good resource!

Another long overdue update on works.
First of all have to explain that unfortunately weather went into full summer mode which means 35-40C, blazing sun and a few mosquitos in the evening to make things worse :D
So, together with end of semester work and other real work commitments I've not worked as much as I wanted. Also on the minus side, I already have an impressive tan and since I usually avoid the sun, I also have the teasing from all the colleagues at work as well :rolleyes:

almost finished the port side:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/paintremoval_fb_19.jpg

due to the heat decided to have a go at stripping the aft deck panels and removing the ceiling to check the overall integrity and condition:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/aftdeck_stripping_1.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/aftdeck_stripping_2.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/aftdeck_stripping_3.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/aftdeck_stripping_4.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/aftdeck_stripping_5.jpg

Not much damage spotted, the ceiling panels will be scrapped (keeping them for templates for the new alloy sandwitch boards (alucobond/Etalbond) I'll be replacing them with (saves on weight, finish and time overall)
It's obvious that the arch base sealing is carp and water has been sipping in, but iroco frame is intact. Will need to strip the vinyl lining of the f/b floor to asses any damage there, but I feel it's sound overall, we'll know soon as plan is to get a friend to help remove the arch tomorrow eve.

Moving inside I did mention I got the BMS working and I'm slowly editing the light wiring and replacing the toggle switches with new ones that work as push buttons (i.e. they dont have on and off state, they just short for a sec when you push them and send a signal to the system, the system knows/remembers states and deals with that internally)
Already done two saloon lights, aft deck, helm, helm spot, galley and will be working my way down to the cabins soon (looking forward to as it's much cooler during the day compared to working on the helm)

In the process I managed to clear out all the cabling mess from the f/b and I'm now ready to remove the f/b pod and built the new one.
Helm area looks much better with so few cables hanging around. Amazingly now I know what each of these cables do (and I'm really pi1issed off with the previous "modifications" that canceled perfectly good wires and replaced them with whatever they happen to find in front of them...)
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/cabling_1.jpg

more reclaimed wires. I guess I've gained a knot or so from half a ton of redundant cables I've removed :p
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/cabling_2.jpg

The F.YES home automation system looks like this (yes it's rough atm hanging from tie-wraps...)

wall touch panel and 4 relay box. I'll have to design (pshop or indesign) my own symbols for lights/genny/airco/whatever else I control from there and slip it under the glass touch panel, looks neat once finished:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fyes_1.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fyes_2.jpg

IP65 helm side panel with extra logic, GSM module and relays:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fyes_3.jpg
toggle switch on thin alarm cable (just sending a signal no current through it)
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fyes_4.jpg

I'm taking one netbook there to program the BMS on the spot and modify according to in situ decisions (or silly mistakes like when I fitted the first 4relays tried them on and it was all over the place, port saloon switch would turn on galley light, helm switch port light, etc. realised that I counted the relays from 4 to 1, doh so it was easier to reprogram them than rewiring them :D )

Anyway, promised a longish post on the BMS but not have time to do it yet, hopefully soon.

cheers

V.

RobWales
14-06-12, 07:54
Morning V,

Keep up the great work but must be very tough in that sort of heat! Phew...

In the big scheme of things what sort of timescale are you realisticaly looking at for completion or is it perhaps open ended..?

vas
14-06-12, 09:26
Morning V,

Keep up the great work but must be very tough in that sort of heat! Phew...

In the big scheme of things what sort of timescale are you realisticaly looking at for completion or is it perhaps open ended..?

I regularly fail to achieve the deadlines I put my self against (and since wife is not checking this thread, I can blame her on most cases!) so dunno since I definitely lost this summer, I'll take it easier.

Anyway got 2weeks off on conferences, 1 week planned vacations, wife's got lots of work to do so I have to take care of the kids, doesn't look too promising tbh. I'll try to trade kid care in the mornings (when it's too hot to work anyway ;) ) with time on MiToS in the evenings (say 6-midnight a few times a week should see some serious progress)

Kids school finished today, so must have a family meeting/fight to sort out timetables today or tomorrow :rolleyes:
You'll understand the outcomes from my progress reports ;)

V.

BartW
14-06-12, 10:04
V,
you copied / misplaced some picture links in your post #251,


thanks for the update,
personally I'm not so keen on domotica systems, but no worrys, thats just a personal thing.

appart from that,
you're almost finished with the breaking appart and dusty work,
the more interesting / rebuilding can start now,
might give you some new motivation !

good luck with the good work.

vas
14-06-12, 10:29
V,
you copied / misplaced some picture links in your post #251,


you mean my previous photo post, yes, just noticed and corrected, thanks!



thanks for the update,
personally I'm not so keen on domotica systems, but no worrys, thats just a personal thing.


it's a greek product, fully developed in house and it's not vimar or siemens instabus. Running it at home for 7yrs now, it's been excellent.



appart from that,
you're almost finished with the breaking appart and dusty work,
the more interesting / rebuilding can start now,
might give you some new motivation !

good luck with the good work.

not quite finished with knocking things apart yet.
Got to remove the deck and fit new 12mm marine ply before I call it off...
And before that I have to check that the f/b is all sound and I don't need to rip that off as well. I'd avoid that on all costs, but the integrity of the ply underneath as I've now removed all lining and ceiling pieces says that it's OK.
We shall see soon, probably even before we figure out the new government and our euro route...

Anyway, it will be another two weeks at this pace before I can safely say that demolision is over.

V.

pete1987
14-06-12, 20:58
you mean my previous photo post, yes, just noticed and corrected, thanks!



it's a greek product, fully developed in house and it's not vimar or siemens instabus. Running it at home for 7yrs now, it's been excellent.



not quite finished with knocking things apart yet.
Got to remove the deck and fit new 12mm marine ply before I call it off...
And before that I have to check that the f/b is all sound and I don't need to rip that off as well. I'd avoid that on all costs, but the integrity of the ply underneath as I've now removed all lining and ceiling pieces says that it's OK.
We shall see soon, probably even before we figure out the new government and our euro route...

Anyway, it will be another two weeks at this pace before I can safely say that demolision is over.

V.
You're doing a fine job.....

I've got two weeks off in July and panicking about getting a few rolling repairs done. Need to get the decks reparaired and painted, and repair the damage done on our very rough sea passage last month.

We've got a 250 mile trip planned for August so that's my deadline....

Nothing compared to your project, makes me grateful that my Mystere is fibreglass!

vas
20-06-12, 11:33
another belated update...

last week spend a few hours on the f/b removing the arch, the vinyl lining on the f/b floor and bits of nasties...

Starting off with unbolting and folding the arch towardsthe bow
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_deck_1.jpg

the left overs once the arch was removed and placed on ground level resting on the transom. Note there was a piece of timber with a (leaking) hole for the cabling:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_deck_2.jpg

this piece of timber was secured on the side plywood via 4 cartbolts, mild steel, properly rusted, had to cut the heads so that I can hammer them through towards the nut on the inside... In the following photo I've already chopped the head to make it fit through the hole.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_deck_3.jpg

once removed, just cleared up the mess and ended up with a small affected area that will be removed and replaced with new plywood.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_deck_4.jpg

Having removed the vinyl and cleared up the mess around this hole, I now know there's only the original marine ply there, no extra material on top to trap moisture and make a larger mess, so having removed the salon ceiling I can safely say that the material is structurally sound.

On the aft ending of the f/b deck there are two more patches that need taking care of. These are where the railing around the f/b are secured to the deck. There were loads of silicone, polyester, you name it, pointlessly poured around making a larger mess and trapping moisture...
Probably easier to cut and replace the final part of this deck 200mm X 2.something metres for safety. Also need to replace the blocks of wood they used as a force distribution agent wherever there was a railing securing point. Anyway, left it in open air for a week now and I'll see how it looks like when I'm next there.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_deck_5.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_deck_6.jpg


following two pics show the f/b deck more or less empty and ready for glue/paint stripping before I proceed with the patches and epoxy:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_deck_7.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_deck_8.jpg


HOWEVER, there's always something confusing (still...)
Checking the Antibes Mystere that jfm kindly send me, the aft railing on the f/b is different and what's confusing is that I have two pairs of cables for nav lights going there. One is visible on pic 7 and it's the stern nav light (sorry not the proper term but you get it)
There's also one pair of cables that goes to the top edge of this inverted V shaped piece of railing. Anyone care to suggest what that stands for? Cannot possibly be the anchor light (too low imho!)
so, MystereMarcus or Pete, do you also have this layout and any idea what this top light could do? Mind you don't even have the fixture for it...


And on a completely different context, spend a few hours in a couple of marine suppliers stores in Athens looking for various bits and bobs. Since I'm planning to replace all skin fittings (and especially engine intakes that are bronze/carroty coloured, yes I know the horror stories!) I was shocked to find the same 2inch intake in brass and in 316SS and SS being cheaper (43 vs 45euro each!) Am I missing something or do I go straight for ss skin fittings all around?
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/engine_water_intake_2inch_brass.jpg
In the pic above you can see the brass item, does the SL (?) logo mean something I should be aware off?

And final Q for tech minded ppl, using a intake like that, do I REALLY need an extra bulky/potentially leaky strainer/filter, or stick a ss seacock and the flex rubber hose to the water pump? Trying to remember when/if I heard someone around our waters having to close the seacock and openup the filter to clean it...


cheers

V.

longjohnsilver
20-06-12, 12:02
Hi V, good progress! I suspect SL maybe Simpson Lawrence, old marine manufacturers. I'd avoid the stainless skin fittings as they are prone to crevice corrosion, only visible when you remove them, so whilst they may look perfect externally they may be corroding in the bits you can't see.
Great thread, as Ive said before, rather you than me! :)

MystereMarcus
20-06-12, 12:02
Sorry V. my Mystere doesn't have the mini arch in the rail. Obviously handy for raising burgee's / courtesy flags. I can't think of why there would be a light there. Mine has the Stern light on the base of the rail in a similar position to yours, the only other unusual light I have is a red flashing light and siren on the radar arch that is wired into the various engine alarms, so if you are in the FB and the strainers are blocked you know about it! Sorry I can't be more help. Have you traced the wires back to see where they are connected to.

Marcus.

BartW
20-06-12, 17:26
There's also one pair of cables that goes to the top edge of this inverted V shaped piece of railing. Anyone care to suggest what that stands for? Cannot possibly be the anchor light (too low imho!)


the radar arch was a retrofitted ?
then this could have been the wires for the toplight ?

if not, maybe a spotlight for the platform / lightning behind the boat

good sugestion from Marcus,
try to find where the wires go to, or have been going to :o

vas
22-06-12, 18:20
Sorry V. my Mystere doesn't have the mini arch in the rail. Obviously handy for raising burgee's / courtesy flags. I can't think of why there would be a light there. Mine has the Stern light on the base of the rail in a similar position to yours, the only other unusual light I have is a red flashing light and siren on the radar arch that is wired into the various engine alarms, so if you are in the FB and the strainers are blocked you know about it! Sorry I can't be more help. Have you traced the wires back to see where they are connected to.

Marcus.



the radar arch was a retrofitted ?
then this could have been the wires for the toplight ?

if not, maybe a spotlight for the platform / lightning behind the boat


spend 7h working today, hell of a job blazing sun and 35C outside, 42C inside in the helm area (where unfortunately the cabling I was tracing live...)

right, as Bart notes, arch is a later addition, although I tought all Mystere's came with the narrow arch like the one in Pete's Mystere and the other plywood one i've seen in Athens + the Antibes one. Now, doesn't look like mine had ANYTHING, as there's no tell tale marks in the plywood ceiling of the salon, so looks like it was indeed the anchor light (v.low, hence the second anchor light on the tip of the bow on the railing!)

Realised there is a colour coding in my Mystere (Pete/Marcus note it, could be usefull in avoiding removing lots of upholstery...), with light blue cables carrying positive for nav and security things, dark blue for lights/sockets/etc, black for all the negatives.
Counted and traced 4 light blue cables coming to the helm area (and in particular the navlights switch panel) from the salon, 2 for the red/green nav light, 1 for the stern light and the fourth for this anchor light.

Just removed it from there, and brought it back to the salon where the new arch will be mounted so that they can follow and go up as the should. Job done for now!

Bart, there was NO bathing platform on the Mystere originally :eek:
hence no light for it. However, I'm counting one extra light line for platform lighting. Not sure I could persuade myself I really need u/w lights... :rolleyes:


LJS, regarding seacocks and SS, I understand and fully agree, however it turns out quite difficult to find REALY DRZ fittings down here. Maybe I'll have to mail order them from up north, any pointers?


trying to recover...

cheers

V.

pete1987
22-06-12, 20:58
The radar arched on mine and Marcus's mystere's seem standard on the GRP versions but they vary more on th versilcraft boats.

Saw a nice one in Germany with a backwards slanted full width arch which looked good. Advantage of mine is that it easily folds flat on the deck which we need for bridges, however it is positioned right in the middle of the flybridge so it obscures any type of Bimini cover that could be fitted.

If I were you, I would try and redesign your arch so it fits in a similar position as the old one, allowing you to pull a Bimini frame forwards from the radar arch. Neat, tidy and complimenting the boats lines.

vas
22-06-12, 21:53
Pete,

been working on the new f/b arch design for a few days now since removing the old one.
You're spot on the layout, although I'm thinking of something slightly more radical and making a fixed hardtop on the aft section and a sliding (under/within it) section to the front.

The only bridge (no rivers and inland waterways in Greece) I'll have to ever negotiate has a clearence of just over a metre, so a folding arch is of no use :D

First sketches follow. Main concern is that since the sidewalls coming from the salon are slanted a fair amount, if I follow the same design (which I really should!) are going to end up restricting the f/b. So planning (as per the first sketch) to pull the "vertical"/pillar sections outwards by creating a small "step", and avoid a v.narrow f/b. Need to do a few 3/4 view sketches to feel the space a bit more. That's clearly shown on first sketch
Plan is to use marine ply (or better alloy sheeting/maybe sandwitched for strength) for the pilars, and an alloy frame/alucobond skin for the flat bit.
Sliding front section could be frame and cloth skin, but we'll see.

Not extremely happy atm as it looks OK on side elevation but not sorted read and quarter views yet, so just posting the sketches up for ideas/feedback.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_arch_d1.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_arch_d2.jpg

cheers

V.

vas
03-07-12, 12:56
hello all,

yet again a long overdue update and I'm afraid the main reason for my slow progress is the fcking hot weather (yeah, considering that you lot up north complain about the weather, I'm following suit...). Started employing a new system, wake up at 5:30am :eek: and work from 6:00 to 10:00, not much luck working outside afterwards (and to make matters worse, helm reaches 40C by 13:00...)

Working on the sundeck, port side done in less than 10h. Employed a slightly modified technique where I don't heat/scrape to bare ply, but only quickly strip the top coats leaving the primer on and using the orbital sander with 40grit to clean the rest. Much much quicker, not stressing my aching wrist at all but definitely messier!

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/paintremoval_sundeck_4.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/paintremoval_sundeck_5.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/paintremoval_sundeck_6.jpg

On the automation front, system is up and running, GSM receiving sending messages, two radars installed, testing the aft deck one as it seems to be rather wide beam so it "catches" activity on the neighbouring boats (I think!)
Need to clear up some more mess on the main el.board, and pass 24V cables to the BMS board for distribution to the lights/switches/et al

Security wise (not a problem really...) I'm ready to start removing side windows and priming ply with west systems epoxy. If only the weather was a bit cooler :(

Different ideas on the f/b arch/hardtop. I'm afraid on the added weight up top and I've noticed that practically no f/b craft has a hardtopish arch assembly so I'm getting a bit worried and want to do a careful weight calculation before I start finalizing the design. More later

cheers

V.

rafiki_
03-07-12, 18:38
Can I part exchange some wet 16C weather for some of your sun and heat please?

Swordfish
03-07-12, 20:59
Hello V,

Keep up the good work, I'm sure many of us would like to swap weather with you.

I have been meaning to post some info but always seem to be short of time.

Re your finishing plans to the external wood of your boat, I seem to remember reading some pages back mention of having to use epoxy resin on the wood, not polyester resin.

Many years ago the system of bonding polyester resin / glass to plywood was explained to me by a boat designer, as the method he wanted me to use manufacture his boats. The principal is as follows: Apparantly certain resins, oils and bonding adhesives present in plywood and some solid wood can actually neutralise the chemical set process. As you will know this set process uses the addition of the " catalyst " ( a type of organic peroxide I believe ) but this set process only happens because most polyester resins for boat building are " pre acclerated ". This accelerator is the other component that generates the actual set. What I was told to do by the designer, was to paint a coat of the neat accelerator on all the wood before application of any polyester resin. This additional quantity of accelerator stops the neutralising effect of the wood, and gives a very strong bond to the wood. Be very careful, the accelerator and the catalyst must never be mixed directly together, they will explode.

Please forgive my rather basic explaination of this, I am not a chemist. I have certainly found over many years that this process does work.

As I think you already know, there is a very big cost advantage in using polyester resin, plus availability and ease of use.

I'm happy to answer any questions if you have any, Regards, Paul

vas
06-07-12, 14:34
Can I part exchange some wet 16C weather for some of your sun and heat please?
I'm afraid not atm rafiki, Don't mind cool/cold weather, but don't want wet at all right now. Can do this deal in a months time if you wish :rolleyes: (sincerely hope it's not going to be carp throughout the summer for you guys!)




Many years ago the system of bonding polyester resin / glass to plywood was explained to me by a boat designer, as the method he wanted me to use manufacture his boats. The principal is as follows: Apparantly certain resins, oils and bonding adhesives present in plywood and some solid wood can actually neutralise the chemical set process. As you will know this set process uses the addition of the " catalyst " ( a type of organic peroxide I believe ) but this set process only happens because most polyester resins for boat building are " pre acclerated ". This accelerator is the other component that generates the actual set. What I was told to do by the designer, was to paint a coat of the neat accelerator on all the wood before application of any polyester resin. This additional quantity of accelerator stops the neutralising effect of the wood, and gives a very strong bond to the wood. Be very careful, the accelerator and the catalyst must never be mixed directly together, they will explode.

Please forgive my rather basic explaination of this, I am not a chemist. I have certainly found over many years that this process does work.

I'm happy to answer any questions if you have any, Regards, Paul

thanks for the info Paul, I have to admit that I've dismissed without studying too well the polyesters, provisional (still standing !) idea is to use west systems epoxy in many thin coats to seal, strengthen and prepare the surface for paint. More or less moving along what some friends here have done on timber boats and BurgundyBen also in here.

I don't like WestSystems price for sure (I estimate over two grand worth of epoxy for MiToS and I may be v. conservative in that...) but I definitely don't want to get into the glass cloth and grp like process that I've seen done often. I'm not convinced it works well on 35yo ply freshly stripped of 2 primers and 6-7coats of paint (obviously stand to be corrected).
I'll have a careful read on what you suggest although I'd like to understand how strong these polyester resins are compared to west epoxy. Definitely don't want to lay cloth on anywhere, was considering that for the sumberged part of the hull (well, effectively the whole of it...) but I'm told that success of this process is too limited with cloth shagging and not bonding well onto the ply. Maybe the system you suggest can beat gravity, but I'd rather not find it out the hard way.

Overall, I want to do something that's going to last a decade with no need to get into paint stripping within that period (at that time I'll be in my late fifties and not sure I'd want all this exercise again, surely will be good for the body!)
Above the deck, I'm v.close to be ready for sealing holes and making a few small patches needed so need to finilise the method to use (although having 6lt of west epoxy already at hand is a big step)

Would like some pointers on how this process is done, what finishing you can have, effort involved, liability to cracking etc if it is possible plz. I'm still up to my neck with real work so not putting the hours I want into the project and I'm slightly worried that I'll have to rush the painting at the end of August early September.

cheers

V.

rafiki_
06-07-12, 17:44
Apologies for the Fred Drift V, but it is Friday evening, on the way home from London, and half expecting my village to be under water as it was 5 years ago. It is astonishing the ammount of rain we have had since Easter.

If only Greece had the Drachma back, with the associated ex rate with , and I could imagine Rafiki moored in Crete or Corfu!

vas
08-07-12, 17:27
Apologies for the Fred Drift V, but it is Friday evening, on the way home from London, and half expecting my village to be under water as it was 5 years ago. It is astonishing the ammount of rain we have had since Easter.

If only Greece had the Drachma back, with the associated ex rate with , and I could imagine Rafiki moored in Crete or Corfu!

survive, or flooded? Hope everything was ok at the end. Mind you, you're all talking about how awful the weather's been and watching Silverstone today not a single drop to further liven up the action! Looked like typical brit summer weather to me...

When we're back with the NewDrachma (imho it's not an if, it's only when) then yes, you should come down, but Crete :confused:
Don't get me wrong I like Crete I once explained to some colleagues, that I'm half Cretean and half Lesbian (dear mum was born and brought up in Lesbos island...) so I love both islands. But where are you going to be based in Crete? North is really carp with all the tourists and so, south, not anywhere to go except along the coast (v.beautiful though)

So if I were you, I'd go for Ionian, or cyclades or even eastern isles Samos, Kos, Chios, etc. Of course you'd be welcomed to Volos, nice areas in the 50m range to visit again and again ;)

Anyway, back to the project, only managed 3-4h work at the begining of the week and since it's going to be another 3-4days before I can continue, I thought I'll give a small update and ask a Q or two :D

start with an dusk shot with sun setting behind the hills:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/paintremoval_sundeck_7.jpg

removing the last few wooden strips from the sundeck
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/paintremoval_sundeck_8.jpg

heatgun and scrapper removed the 6-7 top coats leaving the primer (or not even that at spots...)
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/paintremoval_sundeck_9.jpg

Ready for an hour's work with the orbital sander 40grit (the rubbish bag contains all the paint stripped from the sundeck :eek: )
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/paintremoval_sundeck_10.jpg


Question time, there is this clock above the lower helm seat. It's a VDO in reasonable nick (nothing a polish wont fix outside) but with flaking paint on the lower part of the black plate. Now, I'd like to keep it, I may just keep it like that (it's not that bad tbh). My question is what's the reason for the blue and red bands + it looks like it has a toothed wheel on the lefthand side that is moving an extra hand, like an alarm. Is it to arrange turns at the helm over difficult conditions or overnight? Just curious.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/helm_clock_vdo.jpg

cheers

V.

Swordfish
08-07-12, 20:02
Hi V,

I think Silverstone was just very lucky to miss the rain today. I like your comment re the " New Drachma " myself and I am sure many others would love to keep our boats over there.

We have visited Crete many times, love the Island, but not for boating, further north would be much better. As for your origin, " half Cretean half Les........., well Yassoo Nafti.

Anyway, back to the serious stuff, protection / paint finish to your boat. The method I suggested using polyester resin does assume that the necessary reinforcement material is used ie. glass fibre, either in the form or tissue or fine woven roving. I have not used the West System, but I have seen the cost listed, is it realy so different to justify the cost. I am going to a supplier tomorrow, they are actually distributors of the west system, so I will ask some questions.

The particular method I described using the additional " accelerator " I have used on various occasions for many years, most boats built of GRP, all have various types of wooden additions, transom stiffening, engine bearers, bulkheads etc. bonded into the hull with I am sure, the same " lay up " resin, ie polyester.

Can you try a " test area " to assess strength, adhesion etc.

I'm bringing whole family to Kos in September, for my daughter to get married. I little too far away visit and view your progress, perhaps better not buy Euros yet !!

Regards, Paul

rafiki_
09-07-12, 17:19
V, many thanks for your thoughts. Yes, the village escaped this time, unlike 5 yrs ago when many were flooded. Rafiki is moored on the R Severn, and that is currently 12 feet above normal levels, so she is captured in the marina at the moment, as there is no clearance uder the bridges. In any case, there is so much rubbish flowing in the swollen river, not to mention the odd abandoned barge, that it would be silly to venture out at the moment.

Yes the GP was dry. I was quite disappointed, as my selections in the Planet F1 Fantasy League gambled on a wet/dry race. We did have a deluge at home, just after the race finished, and as we are about 50 km from silverstone, I guess many drivers had a slippery escape from the grass carparks.

I last visited Crete in 1981, and had a fantastic time. Based at Ag Nich, with a Honda 50 for transport my wife and I (then fiancee) found many secluded beaches which in my distant memory would have made great anchorages.

However, I guess a huge ammount has changed in the last 30 or so years, and I would probably not recognise the place!

burgundyben
09-07-12, 21:56
That clock face is fascinating.

Maybe its times for changing watch? 12, 3, 6 and 9?

Or keeping the log?

wakeup
10-07-12, 10:40
Could it be a basic tide clock where the red hand takes 12.25 hours to process between the two red sections with the blue section representing high tide and red low?

Or perhaps an old navy clock , red is when you down rumm and blue is when you lash the ratings :-)

vas
17-07-12, 15:54
hello all,

small update since weather was cooler today managed to do some work.
First of all, my Einhel orbit sander died (well, happy to rev it's head of on air, dies or just about turns when it touches something, not good is it?)
So time for another one and sending this off for repair under warranty...
Follows my einhel heat gun that died two weeks ago. Maybe I should change brand of tools :rolleyes:

Tried to remove the port engine intake/filter mess and was shocked to find that the rubber hose from the strainer to the engine pump was JUUUUST holding on. FFS, overlap with strainer outlet was less than 10mm :eek:
and the whole outlet snapped a minute later :rolleyes:
just lovely...

Interesting find is that engine intake is 1.5inch and not 2.0inch.
That means i'm now looking for a 1.5inch setup (easier and cheaper to find)

Still I think I'll stick to the below waterline setup for the strainers having all bolted safely together and avoiding a massive flex pipe from the seacock to the strainer.

Needless to say that didn't have much luck undoing the components and it looks it's going to be anglegrinder job to remove the lot, then massive vice lots of heat to undo them (not that I need to do it as I wont be reusing them)

Yesterday (officially the hottest day of the summer so far with 42C or so) I went to the craft at 5pm for a check and to do a couple of things.
BMS digital thermometre was showing 49C and after an hour there dropped to 47C:rolleyes: (stupidly forgoten the keys so couldn't open the door for some extra ventilation) I can tell you it was like an oven.
To compensate was in the beach till 10:30pm (in the water that was too warm, no wind nothing...)

Today it's much better with some N winds cooling us a bit.

Last week in Athens found a guy that can re-chrome/nickelplate my 20 light fittings. They are apparently copper (not tin) so plating is going to work nicely on them and for 8euro a piece I'm going to have brand new lights. So today I removed/dismantled all the rest of the fittings to take them to Athens tomorrow.

more tomorrow

V.

rafiki_
18-07-12, 02:19
V, I use a Ryobi sander, which works really well. I've not heard of Einhel.

Good news on the plating,should look good.

I'm in Detroit this week, 42C today. I'm loving it. Could not be much further from the sea, and very busy at work, but after the weather we have had this year in the UK, this is paradise. Mind you, all the local septics are complaining!

vas
01-08-12, 21:39
longish update

first the bling:

spend 190euro on re-nickelplating 20light fixtures, 15odd toggle switch bessels and the windlass locking nut (don't ask!) Money very well spent (and I generally don't like shinny things)

from this:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/lightfixture_3.jpg

to this:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/lightfixture_4.jpg

now working on fitting 200lumens hi-power leds I bought from the friend that does the BMS system I'm using. He originally uses them on a ball shaped fixture with a custom heat dissipation thing (shown on the right) I'll use a U shaped 2mm alloy sheet (unbend shown on the bottom of the pic) bolted onto the light fixture. This should work nicely keeping the leds cool and working for the forseeable future...

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/hipowerled_1.jpg


Now, on the deck/paint stripping et al front I made a test section on the port bow side of the deck. The layup is as follows:


12mm plywood (in three layers) fully delaminated in most places due to soaking loads of rainwater
2mm GRP layed on top of the plywood (wasn't expecting this tbh!)
9mm teak, the full monty with grooves and black silicone (I assume it was originally around 12mm as screws are now showing)
9mm marine ply (bolted on by previous owner)
linoleum based cover (complete with fake black silicone strips)


Looks like this:

after removing the linoleum and ply:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/decklayout_1.jpg

a section through the ply+teak:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/decklayout_2.jpg

a detail through the delaminated ply:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/decklayout_3.jpg

Ordering 15mm marine ply and wish me decent weather (overcast like it was at times today) in order to do this job over the next week or so.
Thinking of carefully removing teak and see if I can salvage any for my deck. Should only need 6-7mm so planning the 9+mm should be possible, we shall see...

cheers

V.

burgundyben
01-08-12, 22:12
Deck - you're going to rip the entire lot off back to the beams and shelf right?

rbcoomer
01-08-12, 22:14
Hi V,

Great to see more progress - that deck resembles what my floor looked like in terms of layers! :eek: Why oh why do people cover up problems rather than sorting them out? On the plus side, your fuel burn will probably drop now that you're not carrying so much water and wood around... :rolleyes:

The chromework looks great!

How's the flybridge redesign going? :D

Regards,

Robin

Shuggy
01-08-12, 22:19
From wikipedia as it's easier to copy and paste than to write out in full!

Silence period: Ship's radio room clock
All stations using 2182 kHz were required to maintain a strictly enforced three-minute silence and listening period twice each hour, starting at h+00, h+30. This allowed any station with distress, urgent or safety traffic the best chance of being heard at that time, even if they were at some distance from other stations, operating on reduced battery power or perhaps reduced antenna efficiency, as for example from a dismasted vessel. As a visual aide-memoire, a typical clock in a ship's radio room would have these silence periods marked by shading the sectors from h+00 to h+03 and from h+30 to h+33 in green. Similar sectors were marked in red for what used to be the corresponding silence and listening period on 500 kHz between h+15 and h+18 and from h+45 to h+48.[4] These silence periods are no longer required as the introduction of GMDSS has produced alternative automatic watchkeeping systems and the 500 kHz band is no longer in use for maritime traffic.

vas
01-08-12, 22:28
Deck - you're going to rip the entire lot off back to the beams and shelf right?

yes Ben, remove the lot down to the iroco beams, clean them carefully and start afresh with 15mm marine ply and 3.5/50mm (iirc) stainless steel woodscrews. Will most likely use some west epoxy as well.

Now, that I mention it, there IS a SMALL catch in that the sundeck assembly seems to be BOLTED on top of the deck. And the whole superstructure as it seems. It is all bolted down with 8mm (me thinks) brass studs. Now, this is an issue as I'll easily remove the mess and all layers of material, but I need to get the new ply UNDER the gap and retighten the lot (mind some bolts are broken/wood damaged etc. So I need to think of a way to do it. Will come back with more photos soon.

Then I'll have to tackle sealing to the superstructure with decent sika products... Not a v.easy tasks, but not too difficult. Need to beef up the support underneath the craft as well tomorrow.


Hi V,

Great to see more progress - that deck resembles what my floor looked like in terms of layers! :eek: Why oh why do people cover up problems rather than sorting them out? On the plus side, your fuel burn will probably drop now that you're not carrying so much water and wood around... :rolleyes:

The chromework looks great!

How's the flybridge redesign going? :D

Regards,

Robin

Robin, yes, my opinion as well. Botched up jobs that show their problems pretty quickly. In the long run it's cheaper and easier to do it right in the first place...

I was also dreaming of gaining half a litre or a knot or so due to the reduce weight, we shall see :D

F/B is paused atm. Have some designs for a fixed + folding bimini and was actually today thinking I got to printout the acad models and check them for real before finilising them.

Important thing is to redo the deck and paint the superstructure before mid September that ppl start bringing boats back out on the hard (meaning I have to put up scarfolding for controlling paint spray etc)

So FB may wait a bit.

going to bed as I want to have an early start on the boat tomorrow

cheers

V.

petem
02-08-12, 21:56
From wikipedia as it's easier to copy and paste than to write out in full!

Silence period: Ship's radio room clock
All stations using 2182 kHz were required to maintain a strictly enforced three-minute silence and listening period twice each hour, starting at h+00, h+30. This allowed any station with distress, urgent or safety traffic the best chance of being heard at that time, even if they were at some distance from other stations, operating on reduced battery power or perhaps reduced antenna efficiency, as for example from a dismasted vessel. As a visual aide-memoire, a typical clock in a ship's radio room would have these silence periods marked by shading the sectors from h+00 to h+03 and from h+30 to h+33 in green. Similar sectors were marked in red for what used to be the corresponding silence and listening period on 500 kHz between h+15 and h+18 and from h+45 to h+48.[4] These silence periods are no longer required as the introduction of GMDSS has produced alternative automatic watchkeeping systems and the 500 kHz band is no longer in use for maritime traffic.

Excellent research!

vas
04-08-12, 12:54
indeed excellent find Shuggy!
makes it more or less useless, but will polish and keep nevertheless. Will have a go at the mechanism as there seems to be some sort of alarm but the needle occasionally locks/slips. Anyway, winter project this is ;)

back on summer work of industrial archaeology!
Was slightly wrong on the deck layup but after further investigation/destruction the definite layup is:


15mm original ply with top layer being teak. The full monty with black strips etc. This fits with the other Mystere jfm kindly photographed for me where the teak strips are straight with direction of bow to stern and not curved like the one I posted last.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_3.jpg

Now, when this failed, they layed up GRP (I did count two layers!)
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_4.jpg

On top of that they relayed teak in thin strips 11-12mm?? (now 9mm) curved following the bathing platform curvature. They used both glue and screws, glue is carp no cohesion whatsoever (good for my stripping work!)
These bits of teak are tongue-grooved (not sure of the EN terminology, but we call them half grooved) and after a sanding they start falling apart on the thin side of the groove.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_5.jpg
I was writting the day before that I'd try salvaging some teak but this tongue groove thing means if I manage it I'll only have 30-35mm max width which is too little, so scrapping it is! (unless anyone can come up with a different idea)

When that failed, he covered everything with a 9mm marine ply and coated it with a fake stripy white linoleum thing that looks much like 80s Princesses decks (in GRP they are though). Teak is v.well glued on this ply and it's a pain in the ar5e to remove...



Arranged for a delivery of 3 sheets of 15mm marine ply (1.22X2.50m) for Monday noon and I should get going straight away. Got today and tomorrow to remove a lot of this mess in order to be able to mark and prepare surfaces.
Will be back later one today once the sun is bearable to continue, but I've already managed this small section:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_6.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_7.jpg

Note there is one cross beam affected/rotten. Plan is to sandwitch a few (maybe all) of the longer beams (towards the bathing platform that is) with strips of 15mm ply to strengthen them. TBH without the ply on top they feel rather flimpsy...

Yesterday noon I also worked inside on electrics/leds. Measured the level of heat I can stand/work on and it's surprisingly high as I managed 3-4h working at 40-44C with no forced ventilation. OK, 43-44C was hot, I could only manage for 20min lots and then had to move to a lower place with cooler temps... End result was that I sorted a few more of the tangled mess, slowly checking cabling and rerouting to the BMS panel above the original so that I can control el.loads remotely (as well as locally of course)

On the LED front, managed to prototype the first U shaped securing bracket/heat dissipation element so now one is properly assembled and fitted in MiToS. Got the rest of the aluminium plates formed and got to spend an evening drilling holes and assembling them. Will do a few these days so that I can have light in the evenings and leave the rest for the winter as well.

So, PCB bolted on the U shaped piece:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/hipowerled_2.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/hipowerled_3.jpg

fitted in the fixture:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/hipowerled_4.jpg

and in MiToS helm:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/lightfixture_5.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/lightfixture_6.jpg

more tomorrow I guess

V.

rafiki_
04-08-12, 18:38
Nice job on the pcb mount V, and best of luck with the "spaghetti" or whatever the Greek equivalent. The teak and other timber remains a mission for you. At least with your heat, it should all have dried out nicely.

vas
04-08-12, 19:52
Nice job on the pcb mount V, and best of luck with the "spaghetti" or whatever the Greek equivalent. The teak and other timber remains a mission for you. At least with your heat, it should all have dried out nicely.

thanks,

rafiki heat is not only drying the timber by myself as well...
A 07:00-13:00 session means I drink around 2 1.5lt bottles of water and even so I'm down a kilo or so when back home which I recover by slowly drinking another litre over the next 3-4h at home. I feel like an F1 driver (only much more unfit :rolleyes: and definitely way underpaid :D)

Back after a 2h evening session making good progress removing the old porthole behind the windlass turns a real bugger. Must have around 4 silicone cartridges securing it :(
Tomorrow will also have to create a support for these thin beams as removing the 35mm overstructure makes them look fragile.

cheers

V.

rafiki_
04-08-12, 22:07
Good luck with that. Sounds quite daunting. I will be prepping Rafiki for a safari later in the week. Teak cleaning, fix the boarding ladder (idiots used std screws, not ss), finish off the battery boxes/lids, align the speed log, and a few others. Mind you, I will be dodging showers, not fighting the heat like you.

vas
07-08-12, 22:53
Mind you, I will be dodging showers, not fighting the heat like you.

rafiki even though it was 42C today, I'm afraid I have to have the heat rather than rain. The whole deck from the foot of the sunpad to the tip of the bow is now in the skip, all 40mm of various layers of timber and a bit of GRP. I have to admit that I've kept half a big dustbin bag full of nice dry 4mm thick timber from the original fully delaminated ply of the deck. I'll use it as kindling for the fireplace at home :rolleyes: Shouldn't really say that but I hope it burns well, else goes to the skip as well...

Removal wasn't particularly easy, took me four (half days) working 7-11am, 6-9pm. Working alone had some annoying cases with stuck through screws devising fancy ways of keeping the wrench on the spot whilst I was hidden in the anchor lock in order to remove the offending bolts...
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/securing_wrench.jpg

the still solid 9mm ply (placed 10yrs ago) was unfortunately v.well glued to the previous teak layer which was bolted on the now delaminated original ply. The system that really works is to cut with the multitool both layers down to the 2mm GRP in one by two foot sections. These are normally easy to lever off leaving the grp to walk on before cutting it and removing (from that point onwards no walking no support no strength!)

yesterday deck was looking like this:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_10.jpg

detail of the bow delamination:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_8.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_9.jpg

Removing the flimpsy looking cross beams (22X50 in section at 220-240mm intervals) tomorrow morning and treating them and strengthening the ones that matter with one or two side section of 15mm marine ply. Then epoxying them and refitting them by the w/e.

Would really really like to have the bow covered before sunday and then progress on the port side first (it's in worse condition) leaving stbrd side for the end.

Will post tomorrow with a sketch of how I'm thinking of creating an anchor lock pocket to store a bit of rope and the bleeding large handle for the manual operation of the lofrans winch.

Ah, before I forget, I removed the crew cabin hatch/porthole and I'm fitting a bomar one. MystereMarcus & Pete: Anyone of you guys need anything as spares from it before it goes to the bin? Mind it's not in a good state, but the latching mechanism seems okay.

cheers

V.

rafiki_
07-08-12, 23:13
V it looks like you are rebuilding on thin air! This must be nearly as complex and difficult as building from scratch? Will there be any original timber left? I am sooooo glad that Rafiki is grp. Off on Thursday for a 4 day safari, weather looking good at mid 20's, stocks of wine, beer and Pims on board. So, good luck with the foredeck, and I hope you complete on time.

By the way, I hope you don't mind, but I have pointed someone on the PBO forum your way, who is looking for Chandlers in Greece. I guess there are not many tha you don't know about!

jfm
08-08-12, 10:40
Wow V, major surgery. Respect! You will actually have a new boat at the end of this (Trigger's brush scenario :D). It's a pity many forum folks don't live nearer cos we'd have come and held that spanner for you. Very best of luck with this stage anyway

Divemaster1
08-08-12, 11:03
Impressive work going on here !!! .... suspect that not all was planned though...

MapisM
08-08-12, 11:16
suspect that not all was planned though...+1. Otoh, with boats the only thing you can safely plan is that you'll have to face something unplanned. It's just a matter of when, rather than if... :)
Amazing job, V. I just got out of my e/r, where I reinstalled a water pump, and I felt like I've done enough DIY for this season.
And then, I see this...! :o

petem
08-08-12, 11:24
Wow V, major surgery. Respect! You will actually have a new boat at the end of this (Trigger's brush scenario :D). It's a pity many forum folks don't live nearer cos we'd have come and held that spanner for you. Very best of luck with this stage anyway
"Trigger's new broom" was my thought too (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus). Does make you wonder if it would have been easier starting from scratch!

jfm
08-08-12, 11:50
Theseus would indeed be a great name for V's boat :-)

Here is Trigger. This is such a wonderful bit of comedy
cPJO99bFGQ8

rafiki_
08-08-12, 13:14
Theseus would indeed be a great name for V's boat :-)

Here is Trigger. This is such a wonderful bit of comedy]

Brilliant:D

vas
08-08-12, 14:57
brilliant really like the only fools and horses lot :D

@rafiki: plenty of original stuff remaining tbh. Only replacing the decks and strengthening the 22X50 beams underneath. The hull construction is solid, bar a couple of patches from rain water leaking in and staying...
NP with Greek chandleries, I know a lot of them in Athens so depending on what he wants I'll try and help and have fun with your safari. Take pics of all wildlife you come across, will you please? :D

@alf: I was hoping for the best, prepared to tackle the worst and to be honest I'm halfway atm :D Once I removed the cabin roof linings it was obvious that the deck had to be replaced. Should only be another couple of weeks work though :rolleyes:

@MM: yeah I know the feeling, occasionally get into this mood myself, but I'll leave it for 2014 to be safe ;)

@petem: I'm an architect not a naval architect... I'm happy to gut things out and rebuilt them to fit my needs but not do the lot on a boat :eek: :) Actually I very much like working on tight spaces and lots of constraints and it's been very challenging thus far.

@jfm: thanks for the clip, seen it on tv 20yrs ago most likely..
Regarding the Theseus name, you'll be surprised that Mitos is actually VERY close to Theseus. OK, a fast track Greek mythology lesson:
Theseus, son of Aegeas (king of Athens) went to Crete to kill the Minotaur. There Ariadne fell in love with him and gave him a ball of thread to help him find his way around the maze. This ball of thread is called in greek Mitos, hence the name :)
Fancy detail, Theseus ship that took him to Crete had black sails on. Deal with his father Aegeas was that if he succeeded and was coming back alive to Athens they'd change the sails to white. Unfortunately for Aegeas who was at the tip of the peninsula waiting for his son's boat to return they forgot that, so Aegeas saw the ship with black sails coming back and disappointed fell on the sea and died. Hence the name Aegean, see you learn something new everyday :p

check out here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariadne#Minos_and_Theseus)for more.

Now, since it's 40+ outside I have a bit of time to post today's progress and even ask for some advice ;)

all beams (er, almost well actually all that's left!) in place. Clearly port side is affected more by rot.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_11.jpg

Beams removed, amazingly they were so weakened by holes for cabling and rot, that most broke while removing them... They are all now at my carpenter's workshop for replacing rotten/weakened parts with iroco and strengthening them with a layer of 15mm marine ply
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_12.jpg

Even more interesting was that same beams in place with two layers of delam ply and 2mm grp was ok to walk on them, ok, wouldn't dance but they felt solid under your feet. the porthole related beam sections (not full size ones) layed on the sundeck. These wont be strengthened further as there's a bit of cabinet work underneath reducing drastically the beam and loadbearing.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_13.jpg


Now, this next photo shows all the foredeck clean (the two longitual beams are just to mark where the new beams should rest.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_14.jpg

I really don't like the way that they've originally setup the anchor locker decking. As you can see in the following detail they had cross members bridging the width and filled in the centre with sections of timber. On top of that the deck and then the windlass. Since I have a massive piece of 50mm thick timber where the windlass was bolted on, I'm planning to remove all this palava and fit this piece underdeck from the anchor locker wall to the keel ending on the bow. This should create a stronger underlay for the windlass.
Further I'm thinking of placing a pocket/port (how would you call them?) on the deck with a depth of say 150mm or so to store a few things. I'm thinking that the port side area that is missing it's cross members in the following photo would be ideal (size around 350X250 sort of trapezium sized)
Was also thinking of another one symmetrically on the stbrd side with no "floor" so full access to the chain without having to go to the cabin all around. What does the panel think?
Obviously the box construction for the port thing will be done now and secured properly onto the surrounding members strengthening the lot.
Mind I'm not planning to drill any holes in the deck now (except for the railing supports, but more on that in another post) and do the ports/teak together after Easter just before she's relaunched.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_15.jpg


cheers

V.

rafiki_
08-08-12, 18:12
V, the safari will be on Rafiki, not an African Safari. However if you like pics of Kenya, and big cats, we have thousands. Hope to get a few pics on Rafiki this time. Apols for the Fred drift.

vas
10-08-12, 12:18
rafiki: wrong smiley, should've been a tongue out but added the big grin, hence me asking for pics from the wild estuaries or whereever ;)

still hot, still working, will be test fitting the beams this afternoon.
That's how the bow looks now, clean, removed railings, sanded surfaces and ready to start with west once the beams are on.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_16.jpg

The offending railing supports that caused all the damage. To be fair, they are nicely built pieces of aluminium, but if they are not maintained and instead of removing them and laying the new layer of teak you cut around and fill the gaps with silicone, you ARE looking for trouble...

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_17.jpg

Beams at the carpenter's workshop. Pieces of rotten/overly drilled and weakened wood were replaced with new iroco, glued with epoxy and a new beam made out of 15mm marine ply was glued/screwed on the one side of them. Four beams were done like that. The ply is left longer and will test fit and cut as necessary on the spot this afternoon.
Once in place and top side sanded to get the right slope, I'll coat the sandwitch and it's pockets in epoxy and get a coat on the hull edging as well.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_18.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckstripping_19.jpg

Tomorrow should be marking the shape for cutting the ply and test fitting them. Need to also rebuilt the port and stbrd side strips of chunks of wood between the beams which originally were for loadbearing stresses from the cleats and now will also double as strengthening the seams between the ply floor.

Need to spend the next week redoing the port side deck and bolting down the sundeck to the deck with studbolts and I wonder if I should get ss or bronze. For some odd reason the stock ones where mildsteel (I guess from their condition :rolleyes: ). Considering that where they fit should be now fully sealed and dry, ss should be OK. Any objections from the panel?

cheers

V.

vas
16-08-12, 12:01
long overdue update.

Repaired beams were glued/screwed back in place, curvature tested for fitting the new 15mm ply.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_1.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_2.jpg

Measuring and cutting the ply. Fancy job as I had to mark the curvature from underneath (using a felttip pen secured with tape on a long stick...) then mark the diff top to bottom and eventually mark and cut the ply. Ply fitting is not a one man job, so got some help from my trusty carpenter.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_4.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_3.jpg

Next step was to epoxy carefully all beams, fit and screw down the ply. Used two sheets 1.25X2.50m for the bow (central and two triangles for the port& stbrd side)

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_5.jpg

bow complete:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_6.jpg

Then worked on the port side, cleared the next 2.2m no horror stories, all beams are nice and sound, cleared everything and got it ready for fitting the new deck.
Above:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_7.jpg
and I like this photo with the shadows taken from within the bow cabin:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_8.jpg

Ply fitted on Tuesday:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_9.jpg

Since I'm away in Crete for a week leaving tomorrow evening, I finished off the sanding of the sundeck, cleared off any grit, dirt and muck all holes (from the strips of wood bolted at some point in the past) and started filling them with epoxy. First soaking them with runny stuff and at a later point filling the 6-8mm holes with thick stuff (west systems + microfibres) To be sanded tomorrow and left for a week. Basically trying to make sure there's not going to be any water coming in if it rains at all while I'm away (unlikely but you never know). This evening I'll do a small repair at the f/b deck where the cabling for the arch were coming in the salon and finish off the sanding of the lower helm roofing.

Bleeding Einhel orbital sander that was repaired on Monday failed again today, this time it's the bushes and or orbital mechanism as the sanding plate wobbles a good 3-4mm along the axis of rotation! Good thing I've got a prof tool of my carpenter as a backup :D
Morale of the story, only buy good quality tools (always do it tbh but this time I thought I'd try the el'cheapo route - both heatgun and orbital failed within a month...)

Small Q on batteries will go in a new thread in a mo

cheers

V.

rafiki_
16-08-12, 12:06
Good progress V. Have a great holiday. Crete is one of my favourite islands to explore. Have an Ouzo for me please.

BartW
16-08-12, 14:59
good to see that the new constructions are starting :)

is this the best plywood you can get there ?
last winter I have learned that a good quality marine plywood is solid and heavy; don't know whats available in Greece though.

have a nice and well deserved holliday (?) break (?)
good that you're used to some heat,
the only thing I remember from Crete (from my teenager years) is that it can be extremely hot over there :)

vas
21-08-12, 07:46
good to see that the new constructions are starting :)

is this the best plywood you can get there ?
last winter I have learned that a good quality marine plywood is solid and heavy; don't know whats available in Greece though.

yes Bart, that's the best I can get and the one used by all boatyards and repair places around. It's bloody heavy stuff takes two of us a great trouble to bring a sheet up to the aft deck via the ladder :(




have a nice and well deserved holliday (?) break (?)
good that you're used to some heat,
the only thing I remember from Crete (from my teenager years) is that it can be extremely hot over there :)
thanks it's almost like a holiday,
"parked" the kids at their grandparents and cousins in Hersonissos/Hrakleion since the begining of August and came to see the relatives, relax a bit and bring them back home to Volos next week (no they're not happy that they'll be back and school starts but that's expected :D )

Sure are used to the heat, but fortunately meltemi winds started (late this year I must admit) so it's hot sunny but cooler with a steady F5+ N/NW down here. Going camping on the south of Crete tonight at the Libyan sea back on civilisation tomorrow ;)

@Rafiki: trying my best with raki (noone should really drink ouzo in Crete it's like a blasphemy..., I thing we went through that in another thread last month) over the last few days. You'll be pleased to hear that I'm almost through half a litre of the stuff already (OK a pint in two evenings in your speak)!

cheers

V.

rafiki_
21-08-12, 10:31
yes Bart, that's the best I can get and the one used by all boatyards and repair places around. It's bloody heavy stuff takes two of us a great trouble to bring a sheet up to the aft deck via the ladder :(



thanks it's almost like a holiday,
"parked" the kids at their grandparents and cousins in Hersonissos/Hrakleion since the begining of August and came to see the relatives, relax a bit and bring them back home to Volos next week (no they're not happy that they'll be back and school starts but that's expected :D )

Sure are used to the heat, but fortunately meltemi winds started (late this year I must admit) so it's hot sunny but cooler with a steady F5+ N/NW down here. Going camping on the south of Crete tonight at the Libyan sea back on civilisation tomorrow ;)

@Rafiki: trying my best with raki (noone should really drink ouzo in Crete it's like a blasphemy..., I thing we went through that in another thread last month) over the last few days. You'll be pleased to hear that I'm almost through half a litre of the stuff already (OK a pint in two evenings in your speak)!

cheers

V.

Apologies for the blasphemy, but Ouzo was just the perfect drink when we were in Crete. Really refreshing, a bit like a GT in India:D

Camping sounds a challenge. What about the mossies?:eek:

Swordfish
21-08-12, 21:39
Hello V,

I note you are enjoying your time in Crete, we have been there many times, it's a wondful Island, but I never quite liked the raki. Would it be good for cleaning you paint brushes when you get back to the boat !!

vas
22-08-12, 15:23
Camping sounds a challenge. What about the mossies?

not many around, actually after 4days here, your question got me thinking of their existance. Being dry and windy means that there're none around at this time. Should be ok, will report on Fri when I'm back.



Hello V,

I note you are enjoying your time in Crete, we have been there many times, it's a wondful Island, but I never quite liked the raki. Would it be good for cleaning you paint brushes when you get back to the boat !!

if the relatives and specially father in law hears that he wont be at all happy :p

nah, I enjoy the stuff, much more than ouzo! No hangover the day after (ok, assuming reasonable quantites been consumed!)

There are alternative uses for raki, one being embrocation (not sure that came from a xlator and I've never heard this word before, hope it's right...) agent, also cooking ingredient and others, let's not turn it into a recipe thread...

I'll stick to white spirit for my brushes if you don't mind :rolleyes:

cheers

V.

vas
22-08-12, 15:25
at last my username was changed from virtuvas to the usual (for me...) vas!
thanks admins

V.

rafiki_
23-08-12, 08:24
at last my username was changed from virtuvas to the usual (for me...) vas!
thanks admins

V.

Can we stick with V? Some of us here are simple folk.

vas
31-08-12, 11:55
@rafiki
survived Crete, no mossies down south, 0% humidity, a brilliant beach I've never been before bleeding hot, and impossible to walk barefoot from 11-6 (dark thin pebbles on a s/w facing beach...)

stick to V, no problems, it's fun having foreigners call me in my full name, and since this is only a forum, Vs fine :D

Apologies for the lack of image serving over the last few days, work server has its fit, works fine, leave the office few hours later is dead, hope I fixed it this time, we shall see.

One pic I didn't post of the sundeck fully sanded (except for the lower 20cm that will be replaced soon) and no exaggeration 400+ holes filled with epoxy and sanded once, refilled if not smooth to be sanded again over the w/e The idea is to get it as smooth as possible now before getting the two full coats of epoxy on later in the month.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_10.jpg

and since I did some work yesterday the stripped stbrd side of the deck. Will finish it off tonight and start fitting new ply over the w/e. Still need to decide on the studs that will hold the top to the bottom (superstructure/sundeck vs the hull top/ending/deck). Looks like 6 or 8mm ss bolt should be fine.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_11.jpg

Aiming to finish with the deck replacement work by the end of next week and before I leave for a week for work

cheers

V.

vas
01-09-12, 18:32
few more pics of the process.

Note the detail on joining the ply sheets on the deck. The top layer of the original ply with the teak and sika is missing (er, was nicely stuck to the layer of grp put on top of it 20yrs ago and due to the delamination decided to stick there and not with its own folk...)

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_12.jpg

and closeup:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_13.jpg


The following 4 pics show the way (and the state) the deck joins with the superstructure. A beam on the ending of the deck, another at the superstructure, sandwiched between them the deck ply and all held in place with 160mm long bolts (thought it was studs but nope) 8mm dia from what looks like ss. The ones in port side are all corroded through, the stbrd side had 2 still holding. Each side had 5 of them.
Plan is to drill new holes and fit 6 on each side (I'm talking about the bow cabin, obviously there's going to be more on the way aft...) and another 5 on the bow lip.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_14.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_15.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_16.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_17.jpg

this is one of the stbrd bolts that's still functioning :rolleyes:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_19.jpg

and here's an artistic photo taken last night looking at the city lights from the 16-18mm gap between deck and superstructure :D (it took me 4 shots with my mobile phone camera to get this one!)
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_18.jpg

and this is the way the ending beam on the superstructure looks from outside. Notice the remains of black paint, makes me think that originally this iroco piece was actually the edging of the teak deck and made vertical 50mm approx ending painted black. The rest of the superstructure was overhanging by 10-15mm and painted white. Have to find a way to recreate this and possibly fit small bluish leds liting (or is it lighting?) the deck.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_20.jpg

Last photo is the finished article:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_21.jpg

Some stats (it was easy this time..) Took me 7h alone to strip the deck and semiprepare the beams and another 5h myself + the carpenter to finish off the job this morning: 17manhours. Doubt I'll bother counting and thinking about it overall :rolleyes:


Got to find a way to secure the railings again before I go any further as I've removed the first 4 bollards (doubt that's the right word... how do you call them anyway?) and things are getting a bit hairy. Wouldn't like to end up diving from 4m to the rough :eek: .

cheers

V.

rafiki_
01-09-12, 21:53
Good progress V. I think you mean stanchions for the guard rail uprights? Interesting detail on the carpentry. It amazes me that builders use anything other than stainless steel fixings on boats. I have to re-fix the boarding ladder on Rafiki. The idiots used std screws, and of course they have a limited life, maybe just about covering the warranty period. Madness!

vas
03-09-12, 22:28
thanks rafiki, ti's stanchions!

Right then, stanchions are supported on some conical alloy fittings, very cleverly designed with three concealed 6mm in dia, 25mm long ss screws (every 120deg) with allen heads clamping the stanchions in place (and enabling small tilting in relation to the deck slope). A fourth slanted hole is to drain any water reaching the hollow section.
These conical supports are bolted with a M10 ss bolt to the deck (through also a 40mm block of wood bridging the gap between the cross members)

I've now reached a point that it's dangerous to remove more deck and matching stanchion supports as I can see an accident coming...
So today bought new 8mm concealed ss screws, opened up the holes (handy way of getting rid of solidly stuck screws with mashed/fckedup allen heads ;) ), new threads and ready to temp fit to support the guard rail. :D

Since the guardrails and the stanchion assembly bits are all painted silvery/allu colour :confused: at some point, I had a go at restoring them to original ally colour planning to polish them all with the two paste job thing.
Shock horror, under the paint (of course painted with a brush on the spot! :rolleyes:) there's a nice carmin RED primer ffs!
Under the primer it's allright plain aluminium, phew!
BUT the things have been hammered a bit over the years and before the priming, hence sanding with 80grit paper unfortunately leaves a few red spots :rolleyes:

Tempted to just give them away to professionals to polish them and be done with, unless someone has a suggestion for a method that's going to create a decent result. Mind working in my garage and there's fcking dust everywhere, so not keen on doing it in a closed space, got to move my black&decker bench to the craft and do it there. If I find a decent method I may invest in a proper polishing tool (static secured in the bench most likely...)

Photos of the thing, brush painted and sanded and slightly polished. Real mess, hardly worth my effort tbh :(

both:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/stanchionsupports.jpg

the untreated article:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/stanchionsupport_before.jpg

treated one, hardly any difference! Bear in mind that I've only used the rough paste on the rough cloth (need to get another drill assembly to secure the fine cloth on and do that as well):
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/stanchionsupport_after1.jpg

concealed screws fitted, the hole in the middle is the drain one:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/stanchionsupport_after2.jpg
(typically the 4th slanted hole is sealed with white silicone on a few of the cones...)

Cheers

V.

rafiki_
04-09-12, 08:18
Vas, this again looks like a mission for you. Is there a chemical process you can use for removing the old paint? I'm not sure if something like Nitromors would do the trick? Failing that a metal treatment company that cleans material before plating/finishing?

vas
06-09-12, 22:34
Vas, this again looks like a mission for you. Is there a chemical process you can use for removing the old paint? I'm not sure if something like Nitromors would do the trick? Failing that a metal treatment company that cleans material before plating/finishing?

nice one rafiki!

I'd forgoten I'd bought a can of Nitromors back in Dec thinking of using it to strip the paint off the exterior (how silly me...) Quickly realised that it was not going to work and kept the can onboard.
Tried it on one of these supports, looks like I need a series of coats to get it going...

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/stanchionsupport_3.jpg

HOWEVER, it looks like it does work on the actual tubing of the railings and the stanchions themselves! Good!

So looks like I'll drop half a dozen stanchion supports to the guys that did the plating/polishing of my light fixtures on Monday and see how they get on with polishing them. Probably NOT plating, just polish. If it's good, I'll get them the rest and be done with ;)

---

Another two days of work and I replaced the next 2.45m bit of stbrd side deck up to engine vent:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_22.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_23.jpg

Not vastly different from the previous bit BUT it's getting narrower hence more difficult to work and I had to remove completely the railing and refit it temporarily for the deck fitting. This section is 650mm wide and after the engine vent is going down to around 500mm. I'll setup some scarfolding outside to have safe access to the working area.

I'm going down from 31mm to 15+7mm for the teak that I'll lay in spring. Should calculate the weight reduction at some point...
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_24.jpg

And the finished article:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_25.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_26.jpg

Thing is that the next 3.5m or so left to the aft deck are a hell of a job:
First 1m stbrd side I have practically no access from inside as it's helm/el.panel various other bits.
Similarly port side is the galley, cupboards, fridge, etc.
Plus an elevated floor and the fuel tanks underneath to complete the mess!

Still struggling to find a way of continuing the same process which is replacing all 3 layers of old deck, clearing up the area between the two beams the deck end one and the superstructure base on top of it, sandwich and glue the new 15mm ply properly and add M8 bolts 160mm long through the lot at 200-300mm intervals.

Further aft on the salon area, same process means that I'll be up and down through the lazarette to the engine room AND I'll have to disassemble all salon furniture, cupboards on stbrd side and sofa on port :( Niiiice....
Will probably double the time needed for it (at least)

Well, got a week off in Prague and on my return I should devise a way of continuing.
Obviously any ideas welcomed!

cheers

V.

rafiki_
06-09-12, 23:01
Sorry Vas, you're on your own with this. Best offer I can give is to go to Prague for you, giving you an extra week on the boat:)

vas
06-09-12, 23:04
S Rory Vas, you're on your own with this. Best offer I can give is to go to Prague for you, giving you an extra week on the boat:)

Nah, I'll take Prague myself and over a few drinks I'm sure I'll find a way to do it. It's good to be "distanced" from a difficult problem you know :D

V.

rafiki_
06-09-12, 23:08
Nah, I'll take Prague myself and over a few drinks I'm sure I'll find a way to do it. It's good to be "distanced" from a difficult problem you know :D

V.

Shame, never been to Prague. I hear the beer is good. Have a great time.

Hardmy
07-09-12, 00:16
Hey Vas!

Just wanted to say that I am following your big reconstruction project with great interest! As an "office rat" and averagely gifted in manual applications, I never would have dared to start any project of this kind. If you were to do it again, would still have bought a wooden hull?

BTW, I live partly in Prague and may be there this week-end. You won't only find the best beer in the world. Please shout, should you need some local advice or help!

All the best,
Hardmy

vas
07-09-12, 14:40
@rafiki: sorry, not been there myself either and looking forward to it!

@hardmy: re your Q, mostlikely I'd get a 30-40yo boat as hard cash I'm willing to spend is low for anything younger for the 43-45ft mobo market.
Don't confuse effort spent to real money though, as if I was to evaluate my labour cost would be horrendous, but I don't mind, as a mater of fact I very much enjoy it (even at this stage) Satisfaction will be much higher once I get into the interior rebuilt in late autumn. Just to give you an idea, the alternatives were GRP hull with timber superstructure (again italian late seventies Italcrafts). Wood is a nice material, if you understand it you can use it and do v.nice things with it, plus you don't get all the itching from working with glass fiber (got allergy on the thing!) and you skip the awful smells. Further, boat smells nice even after long periods of no use...

Anyway, arriving to Prague on Tue morning to meet a hundred+ colleagues from around the world as part of a international conference on the use of computers in teaching architecture. So will be based on Prague 6, Uni.
Everything is sorted bar accomodation, will be faxing one of the designated hotels in a while and hope they still honor the v.cheap conf. price ;)
Else it's searching for sub 80euro/night accomodation, wont be too difficult I guess, but the trick is not to stay too far away from the venue. Drinks/food is catered by the local hosts plus a boat tour/dinner on Fri eve.
Thanks for the offer!

This morning spend a couple of hours sanding all the 300+ points (holes from strips of timber secured on the deck originally, new screws, old failed filler on screwheads, various damages etc) on the sundeck touchedup with epoxy, and got a 3rd touchup session on around half of them. Hoping that after the next sanding session I'll only have a few dozen points to treat before I get my first full coat of epoxy on there :D

V.

vas
21-09-12, 20:01
me again :D

back in Volos after a hectic 5 days in Prague...
Managed to drink beer, but didn't have much time for sightseeing, got to the city centre, walked about at night, walked along the Charles bridge a few times, so not complaining! Excellent city btw, really worth a week long visit ;)

Now, back in track, slowly getting up to speed

Some info on alloy bits treatment and polishing (also posted on another thread, will just type it again, probably differently..)

Right, I spend a couple of hours chatting to the alledgedly best chromeplater/polisher (if thats a job description) in Greece. He recons that alloy options are few and only one's worth it:

he can chemically clean the items
he can brush them to remove kinks, bumps, et al

AFTER that I can:

1. chrome plate the items == NOT WORTH it, as the plating will eventually flake as long as 2-4years
2. laquer it (ditto)
3. anodize it == Prefered solution, ONLY CATCH is that if you do various batches of anodizing, you may end up with quite a variety of colours...

So, anodize it is (after his treatment cleaning and rubbing)

Still need to find a solution for the guard rails and upright bits of 25-30mm dia tubing though... :(


so, back at work, the day I came back it was belting down, checked and there are a few buckets of rainwater in the bilges. Mainly from not sealing properly the hull to the new plywood deck.
So, got a Sika 221 and did a few of these seems on the bow. Will need a couple more tubes to finish it but I'm not in a great hurry as the forecast is 30deg and full sunshine for the next 6-7days (wouldn't trust anything more tbh)

So, decided to tackle the rot patch on the stbrd side of the flybridge deck just where the cabling from the radar and antenna was coming down to the upper helm. Remember that in order to fit the arch, they added a 50X70mm block of wood bolted to the side panel and the arch bolted on that. Needless to say, water was passing under this block, rotting the deck ply.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_stbrd_patch_1.jpg

Anyway, patch is 1200mmX180mm slightly curved, took me 3h this morning to cut (at 45degrees), clean and prepare the surfaces for the new piece.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_stbrd_patch_2.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_stbrd_patch_3.jpg

Look at this view, would be interesting to have skylights on the saloon ceiling, wouldn't it?
JFM, I suggest that should be an option for Match 3 :p

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_stbrd_patch_4.jpg

Should be put in place and sealed tomorrow by lunchtime.

Monday onwards, I shall be tackling the rest of the deck (but will take it easy, first do the port side bit and then move to the difficult ones :rolleyes:

cheers

V.

rafiki_
21-09-12, 20:06
Welcome back Vas, have missed your updates. Good to hear that our rain has made it as far south as Greece.

It has started to go cold here. Heating on at home::eek:

MapisM
21-09-12, 21:25
Geez V., I had missed your last updates.
Your efforts and commitment are amazing...

I fully agree that anodizing is the way to go for any alu bits.
But I also had the opportunity to talk about that with a specialist a few years ago, and fwiw his suggestions were as follows:
1) to sandblast the items (rather than use any chemicals or brushing), with fine grain to keep the surface as smooth as possible;
2) to anodize with no colours at all - hence keeping the natural alu colour. According to him, not only this grants the more longlasting finishing for alu items known to mankind, but avoids any potential colour differences if you should treat various items at different times.

All the best for the deck job, that's definitely something I wouldn't want to need done on my boat! :)

vas
23-09-12, 09:14
OK,

finished the flybridge patch yesterday. Straight forward no problems:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_stbrd_patch_5.jpg

George did an interesting job in creating plugs for the 4 round holes in the sidewall (where the chunk of wood supporting the arch was bolted onto the structure). Will fill in with thick epoxy and cut/smooth next week:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/fb_stbrd_patch_6.jpg

Also removed the dodgy part of the sundeck forward ending strip (where all the rain water was draining and was held by some dodgy repairs, as per usual...)

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/sundeck_patch_1.jpg

Bolted a second beam on the front of the existing one (visible in the next pic) to better support the new piece. Should be finished tomorrow morning.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/sundeck_patch_2.jpg

Next in the immediate line of jobs are the rest of the deck work, sanding once more the sundeck filled holes, two coats of epoxy on all new deck + old stripped from paint/primer ply, strip the f/b deck from glue/primer and epoxy it. Should keep me busy for the following couple of weeks while the weather is kind to me :) 28-30max full sunshine predicted for the forecoming week. Rafiki, mind it's a bit chilly in the monring 15-17 but picks up ok during the day, typically we turn on CH in mid to end of October.

MM, fully agree, however the guy I was talking with was talking about colour discrepancies on NON-coloured anodizing mainly due to condition of chemicals and most important TEMP of the bath. We shall see, I'll try to make sure all similar bits goes together for anodizing to be safe.

Re chemical bath & brushing VS sandblasting, you are again right, but the condition of the bits I want anodized is so bad that needs brushing to remove small/medium dinks, hits, scores. I understand quality wont be perfect but I can live with that specially as the bits we are talking about are going to be at toe level and I'm getting older hence wont be able to see clearly the nasties at that distance :D .
No crawling on the deck for me :p

cheers

V.

rafiki_
23-09-12, 09:44
Vas, I guess you are really looking fwd to completing the deck, as it will show real progress.

Off to Rafiki in a few mins. A number of minor jobs after a few Safari's, and general clean up. Humbling to think what you are doing on your boat though!

Temp down to single figures today, lots of wind and rain to look fwd to:(

vas
26-09-12, 12:51
yet another update...

slightly slower than expected progress at the sundeck bow ending, with lots of reconstructing surgery on existing timber, various new bits glued/bolted etc. All set for glueing the 15mm ply cover tomorrow.
Unfortunately too bleeding hot today reaching 33C ffs! Was rather tired by 12:30.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/sundeck_patch_3.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/sundeck_patch_4.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/sundeck_patch_5.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/sundeck_patch_6.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/sundeck_patch_7.jpg

Port side deck lots of progress as the next 2m are almost ready for fitting the new deck.
As part of my experimentations, I noticed that doing cuts across the deck every 2 beams meant an awful lot of trouble and effort needed in order to remove the 3layers of old deck. And that was from 4nails and 4 screws (2+2 on each beam!) Also wouldn't come off in one package creating lots of rubbish that I had to dispose. It's amazing the strength you get along the securing on two beams. So instead of sweating like a pig and doing my arms, I tried cutting across every single beam and realised that it takes 10secs to lever and remove the strip (compared to maybe 15-20mins on the two beam assembly!). Further, it comes off in one go, minimum offbits around to pickup, so progress is much faster and I'm happier :D

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_27.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_28.jpg

Weather forecast: dry, sunny, some clouds in a week or so and 30C for the foreseeable future (OK nine days) so hope I'll finish with all this deck and have a go at removing saloon sidewindows checking for rot/replace some small bits that need taking care of and priming/sealing the LOT. We shall see.

cheers

V.

rafiki_
26-09-12, 14:19
Nice pics as ever Vas, and good progress. I guess you are learning lots about the job which you can now put into practice.

Can you mail across some of your weather please?

vas
26-09-12, 14:34
Nice pics as ever Vas, and good progress. I guess you are learning lots about the job which you can now put into practice.

yep and another job opportunity once higher education crashes and we end up jobless (ok, hope we don't get into that but there's a small possibility of that happening...)



Can you mail across some of your weather please?

I think it's too expensive to mail, definitely more expensive than an easyjet flight to down here :p

Mind Volos is one of them most wet areas of Greece. I expect lots of rain between Nov and March-April that's why I'm planning the work this way so that once the rains start MiToS will be fully sealed from rainwater and I can work under cover for the hull cleaning/repairing/sealing.
Interior work can also be done when temp outside is in the low single digits above 0. Tried the below zero, but not worth it unless I get a timer to turn on heaters in there before I arrive.

cheers

V.

rbcoomer
26-09-12, 16:24
I think it's too expensive to mail, definitely more expensive than an easyjet flight to down here :p


Hmmm! Got me thinking now - I think a forum fund is in order... How confident are you of delivery if we can raise the necessary funds? I think most of us are desperate enough to chip in after the 2012 'Summer'... :o

Great work however and good to see someone is making good headway... (even if they getting all the decent weather too!) :D

vas
26-09-12, 17:16
Hmmm! Got me thinking now - I think a forum fund is in order... How confident are you of delivery if we can raise the necessary funds? I think most of us are desperate enough to chip in after the 2012 'Summer'... :o

nope, not getting into that, you more or less know where the boat is, so no way I can risk it :p
Further I've not got a Nigerian connection/bank accnt.



Great work however and good to see someone is making good headway... (even if they getting all the decent weather too!) :D

don't complain, your 21ft project is small enough to manage and work during the 11.8month brit monsoon season with not much hassle ;) Problem is that you only have 0.2months to enjoy :(
I'm glad that during the 10yrs I spent in Bath I didn't get any summer like the one you just had. Hope it's a one off and you're back in track next year :cool:

cheers

V.

Swordfish
26-09-12, 17:39
nope, not getting into that, you more or less know where the boat is, so no way I can risk it :p
Further I've not got a Nigerian connection/bank accnt.



don't complain, your 21ft project is small enough to manage and work during the 11.8month brit monsoon season with not much hassle ;) Problem is that you only have 0.2months to enjoy :(
I'm glad that during the 10yrs I spent in Bath I didn't get any summer like the one you just had. Hope it's a one off and you're back in track next year :cool:

cheers

V.

Hello V,

I would not like to be working on your deck in this sun today, it's now down to 25.

I just wish I had my boat here, the hospitality of your countrymen is wonderful.

Regards Paul

vas
26-09-12, 18:46
Hello V,

I would not like to be working on your deck in this sun today, it's now down to 25.

I just wish I had my boat here, the hospitality of your countrymen is wonderful.

Regards Paul

true about the hospitality and the heat...
Whereabouts in Crete are you Paul?
I think you mentioned Ag.Nicolaos? If so go for a swim for me at Kakkos Bay in the south please and I'll give the name of an excellent restaurant nearby whose owner produces some really amazing wine ;)
I usually visit them every year and stock but didn't manage this time as I was only down for a week :(

V.

Swordfish
26-09-12, 18:57
true about the hospitality and the heat...
Whereabouts in Crete are you Paul?
I think you mentioned Ag.Nicolaos? If so go for a swim for me at Kakkos Bay in the south please and I'll give the name of an excellent restaurant nearby whose owner produces some really amazing wine ;)
I usually visit them every year and stock but didn't manage this time as I was only down for a week :(

V.

Hello V,

I'm in Kamari Bay Kos, we have been here for two weeks. Almost never a cloud in the sky.

I have lots photos etc. will post when back home at weekend.

Paul

vas
27-09-12, 23:04
@swordfish: sorry thought you have some links with Crete. Yep some lovely ppl around, and a very relaxed atmosphere, although not so much these days with the troika and ever increasing austerity measures :(

Another 4h today with the help of the carpenter managed to finish the sundeck ending. Slightly dodgy bit, as it seems that the whole sundeck has sagged a wee bit (ok, less than 6mm over 2m) but enough to make for some interesting discussion and testing with slanted supports to make sure that we get it level and doesn't look naff. Finally although we prepared the supports and made the appropriate grooves for them, we decided not to add them and glued/bolted it as is. Once I get the interior partitions shifted, I'll make sure I push up a bit the sundeck and then decide if there is a need for any extra supports.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/sundeck_patch_8.jpg

The following two pics show how the deck joins to the superstructure. Drilled 11 8mm holes for 120mm long bolts. Together with copious amount of epoxy, I recon it should be fine for another 30 yrs or so :D

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/sundeck_patch_9.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/sundeck_patch_10.jpg

I thought I took a pic of the finished article but not on my mobile, will get some tomorrow and post over the w/e.

Almost completed the preparation for adding the new ply deck on the next 2m of the port side. Should be done tomorrow morning.

Over the w/e I should setup the scaffolding on the stbrd side and start working on the final 3m of the deck
(yeah, then I need the final 3m of the port side and the WHOLE aft deck which is like a strainer must had collected 50+lt of rainwater over the two days in belted it down last week when I was in Prague..

Preparing a couple of Qs re partitioning walls, flooring extends, access etc but too tired now to complete and post.

cheers

V.

Swordfish
30-09-12, 17:16
[QUOTE=vas;3768106]@swordfish: sorry thought you have some links with Crete. Yep some lovely ppl around, and a very relaxed atmosphere, although not so much these days with the troika and ever increasing austerity measures :(

Hello V,

Back home now, feeling rather cold. I did mention that we have had many holidays on Crete in the past, it was good to see a different Island this time.

Have just been looking, we may try Kefalonia in two weeks.

Paul

vas
30-09-12, 18:40
@swordfish: Ionian will probably be cooler in mid October (but you never know, forecast is for 26+ for the following 10days...)

A photo of the sundeck ending towards the bow, so this bit of repair is complete:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/sundeck_patch_11.jpg

On Friday the next port side bit was done. So now I only have 4 (and not 3 that I thought) metres of deck to replace to reach the aft deck. Things are getting tight (around 50cm width) so will be using a scaffolding from now on.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_29.jpg

Note on the following pic the dark strip of wood (it's actually the main support beam for the superstructure) that acts as a "separator" between deck and superstructure. It's around 50mm high (will be 40odd once the teak is layed) and has a very lousy detailing so planning to "built" the top edging to the sundeck sloping sidewall with epoxy and woodchips when it's too much and add a thin strip of teak in it before the teak laying.
Plan is to add minute led assemblies every metre or less lighting the deck. I wonder if anyone has come across and decent and reasonably priced such leds (would probably need a dozen or so of them!)

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_30.jpg

Tomorrow will be tidying up and clearing the mess plus a bit of sanding on the sundeck and helm roof preparing them for sealing with epoxy.

cheers

V.

rafiki_
30-09-12, 19:19
Great progress Vas. Worth an Ouzo this evening, as you contemplate the painting. I am getting back ache in sympathy with you.

I spent an hour or so contorted in Rafiki's engine room, doing some plumbing repairs :rolleyes:

All ok now I think.

burgundyben
30-09-12, 20:37
Vas

You seem to be making good progress, are you happy with the result so far for the hours and spent?

Even my 28ft of rotting mahogany sometimes feels never ending.

vas
02-10-12, 16:03
@rafiki: you still haven't realised that other than asking Qs (and getting v.helpful answers!) the reason for posting all these pics is to make you lot guilty for feeling tired after a couple of hours in the e/r or after doing some small bits a bobs around the craft :rolleyes: :D

@bben: I'm happy in the sense that things progress nicely, haven't found YET any horrendous rot that will set me back seriously, all frames are sound bar one at the end of the sundeck (but for good measure I replaced all rotten bits and sandwitched it with a 15mm marine ply and soaked it in epoxy)
Yes I did more than I initially thought, but I'm happy that there's no concealed rot anywhere in the decks and the stanchion supports are going to be properly refurbished and sealed to the deck so no more rainwater will be sipping in.
Leaving personal manhours (ok mandays rather) out, was planning to do most stuff myself anyhow, costs are not that much as yet. I mean 300euro on ply 300 on epoxy and around 500 by the end of the ply repairs to George the semi retired cabinet maker that helps every now and again in patching and handling large bits of ply.

In a few weeks I should move down at the hull and then I'll see what needs to be done.
In the meantime I need to remove all window frames, repairt a few bits of rot around the frame of the saloon windows, finish paint stripping on the f/b deck and helm area and finish off the decks. Today I managed to clear up the mess around, sand the sundeck once more, apply one coat of epoxy to all new deck and run out of time... Plan was to epoxy the sundeck and surroundings as well, but will do that tomorrow as the threat for showers moved to Thu and I'm knackered after 8h under a just bearable sun and 28C.

Now, the fillet/scotia/separator between superstructure and the deck had some lousy detailing to the superstructure. George made a 45mm ply strip that temp bolted onto this "groove" and filled it up with epoxy. That's test fitting this section. Today was removed and slightly sanded. Pics of the finished epoxied article tomorrow :)

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt3/deckrebuilt_31.jpg

Clearing the mess around the windscreen frames and helm roof, we ended with a v.interesting detail devised by George in order to remove all flaky bits of ply and recreate the 12mm ply overhang. I find it excellent and worked pretty well:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_1.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_2.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_3.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_4.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_5.jpg

Regarding the round finish/overhang to the helm windows, we cut 10mm of it (following the curvature) and the new edge is immaculate bar two small patches that need a bit of reinforcing.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_6.jpg

Two new patches to be done before the helm roof is sealed for the winter.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_7.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_8.jpg


Need to spend sometime investigating proper primer (2pack is what west recommends) to apply on top of the epoxy giving it extra UV protection as I don't think we'll be suffering from lack of sunshine and west specifically mention that epoxy is affected by UV (ok, doubt that even a Greek winter will damage it, but I may start priming and filling before the snow season :D

cheers

V.

rafiki_
02-10-12, 17:48
@rafiki: you still haven't realised that other than asking Qs (and getting v.helpful answers!) the reason for posting all these pics is to make you lot guilty for feeling tired after a couple of hours in the e/r or after doing some small bits a bobs around the craft :rolleyes: :D



Guilt? Why do you think guilt should come into this? Envy is really the overriding emotion....................that you have so much time on your hands..................................:D

Actually, this is a fantastic thread, and I am really enjoying your progress, and also learning a few things to stash in my locker for the future:)

vas
02-10-12, 20:07
Guilt? Why do you think guilt should come into this? Envy is really the overriding emotion....................that you have so much time on your hands..................................:D


In the light of recent threads in the mobo forum, I'm pretty sure this is defamatory, don't you think :rolleyes:

Being a nice person I wont report you, but I'd expect an nice long ride in the canals when I'm up there...
:p

On a serious note, I've organised the autumn semester to have a lighter workload especially as I have just won a large research project and got half a dozen ppl working on it. I do work my 7+h a day, not 9to5 and not in the office... I don't go to bed before midnight and no, I'm not out and about drinking after 9pm, so let's say I have an unconventional hectic timetable seven days a week :D
Currently working on a couple of student projects correcting them (meeting them tomorrow - I should really be meeting them on Thu when it's raining though...) and just had my epsresso to keep me going for a few more hours ;)



Actually, this is a fantastic thread, and I am really enjoying your progress, and also learning a few things to stash in my locker for the future:)

wot? you thinking to getting into wood? Unless you're retired or are single (or want to become one!) and on flexi hours you shouldn't really think about it :D

cheers

V.

rbcoomer
02-10-12, 20:53
In the light of recent threads in the mobo forum, I'm pretty sure this is defamatory, don't you think :rolleyes:

Being a nice person I wont report you, but I'd expect an nice long ride in the canals when I'm up there...
:p

On a serious note, I've organised the autumn semester to have a lighter workload especially as I have just won a large research project and got half a dozen ppl working on it. I do work my 7+h a day, not 9to5 and not in the office... I don't go to bed before midnight and no, I'm not out and about drinking after 9pm, so let's say I have an unconventional hectic timetable seven days a week :D
Currently working on a couple of student projects correcting them (meeting them tomorrow - I should really be meeting them on Thu when it's raining though...) and just had my epsresso to keep me going for a few more hours ;)



wot? you thinking to getting into wood? Unless you're retired or are single (or want to become one!) and on flexi hours you shouldn't really think about it :D

cheers

V.

Agree 100% on the work hard / play hard philosophy - sadly for me I hadn't discovered the joys of boats when I was doing that! :rolleyes: Too over-committed myself now with young family, mortgage, school fees etc so now it's more work hard / work hard. :) Thus my project is more 'as and when there's a bit of time', but TBH the more great threads and projects like this I read, the more inspired I am and the better the eventual outcome I hope! You do seem to have the weather on your side however and I confess to going a bit green when I observe your wall-to-wall sunshine vs our drab and dripping outlook! :eek: Another reason that I for one am quite happy to stick with GRP as I think a wooden project boat would currently rot here faster than I could ever keep pace... ;)

Keep up the great work!

rafiki_
02-10-12, 21:01
In the light of recent threads in the mobo forum, I'm pretty sure this is defamatory, don't you think :rolleyes:

Being a nice person I wont report you, but I'd expect an nice long ride in the canals when I'm up there...
:p

On a serious note, I've organised the autumn semester to have a lighter workload especially as I have just won a large research project and got half a dozen ppl working on it. I do work my 7+h a day, not 9to5 and not in the office... I don't go to bed before midnight and no, I'm not out and about drinking after 9pm, so let's say I have an unconventional hectic timetable seven days a week :D
Currently working on a couple of student projects correcting them (meeting them tomorrow - I should really be meeting them on Thu when it's raining though...) and just had my epsresso to keep me going for a few more hours ;)



wot? you thinking to getting into wood? Unless you're retired or are single (or want to become one!) and on flexi hours you shouldn't really think about it :D

cheers

V.

Rafiki is too beamy for canals. She is really a coastal cruiser, but we moor on the river for convenience. However, you are very welcome to come and enjoy Rafs attributes, including a well stocked fridge:)

Most working days for me are 12 hours plus, and I fly long haul regularly unfortunately. Not looking for sympathy, but explaining why my boating is purely for relaxation, and quality time with my lady wife.

vas
04-10-12, 20:14
@rbcoomer: agreed, but you reaaaally should setup some sort of tent to be able to work a bit more, else you'll have to put her on a trailer bring her down here and do the work in a couple of weeks :rolleyes:

@rafiki: yep, been through the 12-14h working days and will be back there again when going gets tough and deadlines are approaching. Just don't want to think about it right now...

The following pics are the before and after the 1 only coat of epoxy that the sundeck got treated with. Reason was that I'm running out of the stuff and trying to sort out delivery from the UK but I'm slightly stuck in the hazardous and flamable nature of epoxy and may have to buy locally at almost double the price :mad:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/paintremoval_sundeck_11.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/paintremoval_sundeck_12.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/paintremoval_sundeck_13.jpg

Was rushing to get everything sealed before it starts raining and forecast (in a similar way to yours) the rain and now reports that may have a shower or two in 6days time. So time to work on the rest of the deck tackling the dodgy part where I don't have access from the cabins but through the galley cabinets and saloon sofa on port side.
Stbrd side is going to be a pain as I'll have to shift the el/panel (almost impossible!) or remove the actual helm cabinet and further aft dismantle the whole cupboard thing in the saloon. So, i'm starting with port side :rolleyes:

Spend the day organizing stuff in the saloon (was a large messy storespace), managed to finish some BMS detailing re dimmers for saloon and helm/galley (all working now) and finished the day off with the removal of the sofa. Not impressed, there was a system with sliders (bronze by the looks of it) that meant that the main bit was fixed on the floor and seating area slided out to convert to a double bed. Well, now the whole mess slides out solid as a rock and in a general messy state. Got to drop it down to the ground with two lines and get it at George's workshop to replace a few bits, get the sliding mechanism working and store it till easter. Will have much better access to the engines with this out of the way :D

George is working on the few helm roof patches. It is again interesting to realise the story (and mishap/stupidity) behind each hole...


http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_9.jpg

especially in the next pic where you see a large patch on the right (the cabling for the horns!) and a smaller patch on the left (the mounting holes for the horns!)
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_10.jpg

Well, the next one, i'm not fully convinced it was the previous owner, maybe a slight design issue as there's no way for the rainwater to leave this space. may have to drill drain holes and seal them properly. Or then maybe there were holes that the six or so coats of paint fully blocked :rolleyes:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_11.jpg

Tomorrow should see some reasonable progress in the port side deck and I should have the alu panel/window maker coming to figure out what we should use to reseal the ss window frames (that have to be removed, checked and replaced)

cheers

V.

vas
06-10-12, 16:13
some decent progress although temp was again 29C and no clouds blocking the bugger...

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_32.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_33.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_34.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_35.jpg


On the helm patches front some progress as well, should be finished on Monday as most patches were a 3 level job, first the bottom is epoxied, next day, cleared/sanded/checked, side wall part is added and the third day the capping is added...

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_12.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_13.jpg
The two photos above are taken today after day two, so sides are done.


http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_14.jpg

Sunday's day off, Monday teaching, Tuesday finish preparation and possibly test cut the bits, Wednesday fitting. Rain postponed yet again for next Sunday... Not complaining, by this rate, I may just about finish the stbrd side as well before we get a single drop :rolleyes:

V.

rafiki_
06-10-12, 19:08
Vas, looking on the bright side, at least when the temperature drops, you will have a lot of material for a bonfire:)

vas
10-10-12, 18:16
@rafiki: did that on my previous project, replaced the whole roofing and ended up with enough wood to burn in the fireplace for the following 3yrs!
I only picked up a couple of bags with the thick inner of the 15mm delaminated ply nicely broken in small bits to use it to fire up the logs in the fireplace.
Mind I've got too many things off MiToS stored at home that I'm running out of space for things like logs, cars and pushbikes in the garage...

After an 11h session yestereday together with George managed to complete the port side all the way back to the aft deck. Good enough as rain was predicted for yestereday, didn't materialise and only had a 4min shower an hour ago :rolleyes:
Was nicely overcast throughout the day yesterday and I have to say it was the first day that I was wearing a t-shirt throughout. Temps were still 20-25C.

closeup of the cleared frames:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_36.jpg

and the mess it produced in the sofa area:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_37.jpg

some delamination on the edge of the flooring ply touching the hull. Cleared some of it, will treat it and replace larger sections as appropriate. This is the one responsible for sound isolation and fumes isolation to the engine room, so I'll take a lot of care and possibly remove larger chunks of ply here (if not ending removing the lot and do spare me the jokes with the broom plz :rolleyes: )
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_38.jpg

lots of glue:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_39.jpg

and the finished article:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_40.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_41.jpg




Tomorrow I'll do the preparations for the stbrd side as I need to remove the 2.5m long cabinet with various cupboards without destroying it that is...

Helm roofing fully sealed and all of the f/b floor that I've already paintstripped and sanded was also treated with West. Next photo for rbcoomer with wall-to-wall clouds :p
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_15.jpg

Having a hard time getting hold of Clear Penatrating Epoxy Sealer (CPES) down here and turns out it's impossible to have such stuff shipped from up north (or anywhere for that mater...) due to their hazardous nature.
My West Epoxy supplies are finishing and although I'm using a thicker epoxy for glueing, I need to get my self ready for treating the keel and other bits below the waterline. Any ideas?
Will use the rest of my West as a coating for new ply and sand it down in May before treating again and laying teak.

cheers

V.

rafiki_
10-10-12, 18:38
Good progress on the decks and F/bridge. it must be satisfying to see some construction rather than destruction.

Can't help with the epoxy, sorry, way out of my comfort zone. If it can't be fixed with Gelcoat filler, then I am no good to you.

Is the epoxy a hazardous substance, or a dangerous goods? They have different connotations until UN OECD regs.

vas
10-10-12, 19:49
Good progress on the decks and F/bridge. it must be satisfying to see some construction rather than destruction.

Can't help with the epoxy, sorry, way out of my comfort zone. If it can't be fixed with Gelcoat filler, then I am no good to you.


only gelcoated bits of MiToS are the engine vents and the two exhaust covers ;) and judging from the itch I get everytime I touch glassfibre I'm happy I wont need to deal with it for a long time...



Is the epoxy a hazardous substance, or a dangerous goods? They have different connotations until UN OECD regs.


One I got hold of its specifications is this (http://marinestore.co.uk/PDF/EPOSEAL_300_RESIN%28GB%29.pdf) (suggested by littleship ;) )

Turns out that I have to get hold of that stuff locally in Greece. Didn't have time to search properly, will do now. I need to check the sites of the original companies producing such stuff for Greek dealers.

cheers

V.

jfm
11-10-12, 00:09
Following all this with interest Vas and enjoying this thread. I admire the thoroughness of your work. You're going to have a beautiful yacht when you're finished

vas
12-10-12, 20:34
thanks jfm, she'll be nice, heavily customised for my needs (or what I consider them to be atm!) and I'll definitely know my way around her for the forseable future ;)

Today most day was spent removing and loading the stbrd side saloon cabinet to George's car. To be stored, refurbed and lacquered over winter and to be added back in MiToS when the time is right.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/saloon_cabinet_1.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/saloon_cabinet_2.jpg

OK, wasn't an easy task. Bleeding thing was around 80kg and fairly awkward to deal with. Removed all cabinet doors and drawers (to reduce some of the weight...) and finaly were only 4 screws holding the whole lot in place! Two under the lower helm seat and another two at the aft end of the cabinet.

For sure it's not coming back that big! lowering it down to the ground was let's say "interesting" Me on the the f/b with a thick rope holding the heaviest part of the cabinet, George on a temp scaffolding leading it down, at some point it STUCK on the fiberglass exhaust cover and had to wiggle it about, eventually after 20mins got it down to the ground, phew!

Just considering adding a two seater sofa (1.4m wide) on the stbrd side instead of the 3 550mm narrow cabinets. I find the 3 cabinets full of glasses and cups a bit extreme and I'm sure I can get them stored in a more space efficient way. Idea is to keep the 5 drawers towards the helm bulkhead and replace the four cupboards with 1 fridge towards the bow where the height is larger and I could shove it half way under the deck and a two seater sofa. Odd plan is to use the section under the sofa towards the fridge for glassware cabinet (possibly two LARGE drawers under the seating) sliding out and revealing lots of glasses/cups) and the other half of the sofa for storing life vests (got 10 onboard and they aren't currently in an easily accessible place - under the galley floor!)

Having another look at the saloon flooring and I'm definitly going to replace the lot! It is secured on iroco frames and although the frames are perfect the flooring is a right mess! Will give me to oportunity to sort out the soundproofing on the floor to hull detail and think about the final flooring material: Carpet in hot med climate is absurd, would be nice to have a teak floor a la Bart Canados, but I have 4 hatches to the engines on the saloon floor and I'm not sure it does make sense :(

Try to figure out what's happening on the following pic:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/saloon_cabinet_3.jpg


And finally the following pic shows the routing of the diesel towards the tanks. I'm thinking of replacing the flex bit and it's loop.. Mind is this loop useful for anything? I've got my ideas but would like to know what the others think.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/saloon_cabinet_4.jpg


Ah, bearing in mind that I still cannot find any penetrating epoxy down here and reading on various ppl sites/blogs on the characteristics and contents of this elusive Clear Penetrating Epoxy Seal I made some myself as suggested by diluting 50-80% of the volume of West Epoxy mix with isopropyl alcohol. Was really impressed at it's much thinner and seems to penetrate much more into ply and iroco.
Knackered, going to bed...


cheers

V.

vas
13-10-12, 07:34
hm,

was told and just found the site of a company called Fibermaxcomposites (http://www.fibermaxcomposites.com/shop/-c-82.html)
Their list of materials is rather long and needs a bit of studying.
The amazing thing is that these guys have offices/fab/retail in a village 5km from Volos, and their depot is 3km from MiToS :eek:
Will do my studying and pay them a visit next week.
Looks like 6780slow is what could do for starters, but need to check and especially figure out UV stability, what primer and top coat is suitable for all that.

any opinions appreciated!

cheers

V.

vas
17-10-12, 15:34
YAU (or yet another update...)

finished stripping the stbrd side deck all the way back to the aft deck.
Suprisingly, there was a lot of water damage nicely covered by the saloon cabinet so no remedial action was taken by the previous owner. Although his actions were mainly stuffing the place with white silicone (from the inside!) so tbh wouldn't be of much help :rolleyes: Note the marked to be removed area of the ending of the superstructure to the deck. Apparently the ss through bolt rusted, rot affected the 35X90 iroko beam and when I was removing the outer ply bit (soon after the photo was taken) the iroko came along... So George is preparing a new piece for this section.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_43.jpg

Have a feeling that a sheet or two of 1250X2500mm ply will be needed on the stbrd side and that's above the waterline!

Frames are ok except for one horizontal member that needs strengthening on the offside.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_42.jpg

George finished working on the port side patch where the superstructure was ending and rotting together with the deck. A 5 level job with inner frame of iroko, followed by supports for the inner and outer ply skin and finished with a thin strip completing the ending to the aft deck. Looks very nice and extremely strong and solid ;) Probably took 200ml of epoxy to do as well and two dozen inox countersunk 4X50 and 5X50. Level four is shown in the following pics before glueing the cap today.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_16.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_17.jpg

Plan is to let the stbrd side frames dry (from the dampness gathered there over the two short showers we had last week-kept covered this week) do all the preparations tomorrow and cover it up on Friday.

Gives me enough space and access to tackle the leaking steering separator box or whatever you call this thing: Has two copper pipes bringing fluid down from the flybridge, and under it are two T-pieces going aft to the pump and bringing the lower helm fluid on the other side. Turns out that the top racor (is that how you call them?) on the one T is leaking (A LOT!) All cables under there are a right oily mess, but on the positive side, ply around there hasn't delaminated and looks brand oily new :D. Maybe I should bathe the whole hull in steering fluid oil :rolleyes: Definitely cheaper than penetrating epoxy...
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/steering_isolation_box.jpg

Managed to get the short pipe to the tee from the bottom of this separator box out and will check it out later on at home. Needless to say that without the deck out, this was an unbelievable job to do as I'd started it during spring and left it untouched since! So one of the good side products of stripping the whole boat to pieces...

Weather again luckily too good with temps up to 30 and enough sunshine to make it difficult, but I'm not complaining for this week. I will complain if it goes on like that during November as I want to work on the hull outside and I need cool weather and a few clouds :D

cheers

V.

LittleShip
17-10-12, 15:51
bearing in mind that I still cannot find any penetrating epoxy down here and reading on various ppl sites/blogs on the characteristics and contents of this elusive Clear Penetrating Epoxy Seal I made some myself as suggested by diluting 50-80% of the volume of West Epoxy mix with isopropyl alcohol. Was really impressed at it's much thinner and seems to penetrate much more into ply and iroco.
Knackered, going to bed...

Well done on making some CPES....... dont be tempted to put her back together without liberal coats to seal the ply.

One little tip when replacing ply... try and get an overlap that can be glued together, it maks a much stronger joint than butt joints filled with epoxy.

Keep up the good work :) I'll let you see what was done to Little Ship one day.

Tom

vas
21-10-12, 22:50
Tom,

yes, no deck ply joint is done without an at least 150mm wide piece of ply underneath for the full length of the joint. Both pieces are glued/bolted to this strip. I also used in 4places 250mm wide original joining strips so I'm confident that it's ok.

Also, finally got proper CPES locally from Fibermaxcomposites (http://www.fibermaxcomposites.com/shop/index.php) I mentioned in a previous post! Guy is brilliant, knows his stuff, spend a couple of hours at his office last week explaining what I'm doing and getting advice and got a 5lt CPES for 110euro plus 5lt normal wood epoxy for another 110euro. So for the price I paid five months ago for 6lt of West systems epoxy from the official Greek dealer I now got 10lt of epoxy 5km away from home :D No doubt where I'm going to get the rest of my supplies...

Finished the gunwales at last! But I've just realised i've not got a bow looking back photo that covers the lot to prove it, just trust me :D

Next photo shows some interesting damage which was part of water ingress and part of my stupidity when I was paintstripping with the heatgun and effectively put the inner bits on fire... Nice one. George is replacing the inner vertical column thing and builting on top layer by layer. Straight forward but takes time:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_44.jpg

Next one shows the almost finished article with glue everywhere just before fitting the final piece of ply:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_45.jpg


Once the whole of the gunwale was replaced I started working on sealing the whole of the superstructure before the rains kick in. So Fri and Sat spend a few hours sanding with 40 and 60 grit on my 150mm dia orbital festool sander the whole of the superstructure. That's bloody lot of sanding I'm telling you...
Leaving the sundeck untouched (already coated twice with west systems epoxy) I used 2.5lt of CPES on two coats on the helm roof, port side and 1 coat on the stbrd side. Doing a v.light sanding with 60grit between coats to smooth it a bit and open up the pores for more epoxy.
Looks like I could be painting CPES the whole week (one coat a day as it's slow curing epoxy that has better penetrating properties) and use another 5-7lt of CPES on the super structure.
Then I'll have to do the same with the newly installed decks (some are west systems coated the later bits are with CPES) and finish with sika rubber thing at the seam between the new deck and superstructure.
Once the wood is thoroughly soaked, I'll get a couple of coats of the "normal" marine wood epoxy to seal it properly. I'm planning to ask the guy if there's a possibility of using some pigment on this top coat so that I can get a feel of the colours I want to use and make it slightly easier on spotting areas that need filler for the final top coat. Since I'll be "playing" with tones of gray for the superstructure I'm going to investigate on availability of such pigments for the marine epoxy.

Wed onwards will start stripping the aft deck which is in a right mess. Further the previous owner added new sidepanels on top of the original ones making a mess out of shorepower port and all other ports and detailing around the aft deck. So will have to start with stripping the sidepanels before messing with the actual deck. At least it's easy to cover (mostly covered already!) if it rains (unlikely from the current weather forecast for this week)

More photos of the darkened soaked plywood superstructure tomorrow

cheers

V.

rafiki_
22-10-12, 08:25
Good to see the progress Vas.

if I were you, I'd be tempted to get some of your final year students on the "project" :D

BartW
23-10-12, 09:10
Well done on making some CPES....... dont be tempted to put her back together without liberal coats to seal the ply.

One little tip when replacing ply... try and get an overlap that can be glued together, it maks a much stronger joint than butt joints filled with epoxy.

Keep up the good work :) I'll let you see what was done to Little Ship one day.

Tom

Vas, Tom,

is this sufficient to get a complete water sealed deck, underneath the teak ?

On Blue Angel, I still suffer a few small leaks from water through the teak, and then finding its way to the rooms underneath,

I'm considering within a few years to replace the teak but first place a layer of GRP underneath, or is there another solution for 100% deck water sealing on a wooden boat ?

LittleShip
23-10-12, 09:37
I'm considering within a few years to replace the teak but first place a layer of GRP underneath, or is there another solution for 100% deck water sealing on a wooden boat ?

Bart , I have a Teak deck and I have to say I'm a fan of teak.

If you are removing the teak I would suggest epoxy coating (not GRP...polyester) and then one of the teak look a like products stuck down on it. If you have ply on the deck, sealing it with a good amount of CPES will provide a barrier to water ingress.

The biggest problem with teak is keeping it sealed any method which has a physical fastening iwill provide a point of entry for water if it isnt looked after. I have several plugs and seams on my deck that I will be repairing this winter.

If I was to remove my teak (as much as I like it) I think I would be tempted to seal with CEPS, cover with epoxy matting and "stick" one of the look a like products on it. That said I still dont think that anything can beat a real teak deck for safety underfoot.

Hope this helps

Tom

PS. If you are suggesting putting CEPS over a teak deck to seal it I would say NO !

BartW
23-10-12, 09:49
Bart , I have a Teak deck and I have to say I'm a fan of teak.

If you are removing the teak I would suggest epoxy coating (not GRP...polyester) and then one of the teak look a like products stuck down on it. If you have ply on the deck, sealing it with a good amount of CPES will provide a barrier to water ingress.

The biggest problem with teak is keeping it sealed any method which has a physical fastening iwill provide a point of entry for water if it isnt looked after. I have several plugs and seams on my deck that I will be repairing this winter.

If I was to remove my teak (as much as I like it) I think I would be tempted to seal with CEPS, cover with epoxy matting and "stick" one of the look a like products on it. That said I still dont think that anything can beat a real teak deck for safety underfoot.

Hope this helps

Tom

PS. If you are suggesting putting CEPS over a teak deck to seal it I would say NO !

Tom,

sorry, I wasn't very clear,
I'm a teak fan aswell, and I hate "any" look a like product,
Plan was to take out the old teac, and replace with new,
but have a sealing epoxy or anything else underneath the new teak,
so therefor I was considering GRP underneath the new teak,
what do you think is the best solution (what do professionals do) to make teak (or the layer underneath) 100% sealed

you mention epoxy matting ?
is this similar to the glass fabrics ?

LittleShip
23-10-12, 10:02
Tom,
you mention epoxy matting ?
is this similar to the glass fabrics ?

Epoxy matting looks like a woven fabric rather than chopped fibreglass.

The method these days seems to be to seal the base if it's ply with epoxy and matting and then stick the new teak down on to it, that way there are no holes through the ply to allow water ingress. You can however still get water under the teak if the chaulking isnt maintained.

If your deck is GRP then seal all holes and again stick down the new teak.

I never use Polyester on my boat I only use Epoxy, mind you she is wood :)

Tom

BartW
23-10-12, 10:10
You can however still get water under the teak if the chaulking isnt maintained.


I think that's my problem now, I believe you can never have 100% sealed teak/caulking, especially not old one,
and the old teac isn't well enough fixed anymore on the old plywood underlayer. so there is a space for water to find its way...


If your deck is GRP then seal all holes and again stick down the new teak.
no its old plywood


I never use Polyester on my boat I only use Epoxy

I ve seen using the Italian rebuilders sort of fabric and collorless treatment on the new steps side walls and gunwale repairs,
I thought it was GRP, will asc them, perhaps its epoxy + matting (?)

MapisM
23-10-12, 13:24
The method these days seems to be to seal the base if it's ply with epoxy and matting and then stick the new teak down on to it
When I discussed that with a wooden boat builder (quite some years ago, though), he told me that this could be a recipe for a disaster.
Fwiw, according to him, it's unavoidable that with the frequent temperature and humidity variations any boat is bound to deal with, some moisture builds up inside that plywood deck encapsulation, even assuming that no rain water finds its way inside it.
On the other hand, this moisture will not dry out as easily as it could do with a normal ("non-encapsulated") wooden deck, and this could quickly lead to rotting the plywood and the frames supporting it, thus eventually needing a complete deck rebuild...! :eek:

I'm interested to hear your view on this, anyway.
Maybe nowadays there are materials available which can keep moisture formation at bay?

vas
27-10-12, 06:04
sorry for not responding and updating this thread but was too tired after working 8-10h sanding and painting. Today I'm sort of taking a day off, so time for updates.

I agree with Tom's comments on sealing/epoxy matting and laying teak with glue only on top of it on a fully sealed base. Similar sort of thing to a grp deck. I MAY go this route, or may just lay the teak on top of the existing epoxied (but not matted/epoxied) deck. We shall see in May-June.
However, and I think that was what the constructor meant MM, I definitely WOULDN'T seal both sides of a deck: i.e. wouldn't put epoxy on the inside of the deck (towards the habitable space underneath that is) for the fear that dampness that may get trapped or manage to get in with humidity variations and/or other reasons will decay wood rather than exit gracefully when the conditions are right. So currently sanding the inside of the deck/sundeck/superstructure/beams you name it down to more or less bare iroko/ply and will soon be looking for a water permeable (if that's the right word) coating for it, protecting for running water (if it ever happens) but letting the wood breathe and throw out all dampness that's inside it. Don't think it's a difficult thing to find nowadays with all the nanotechnology and special paints and so on...
Bart, would be interesting to hear what the guys from Canados did to BA during the Rome refit last winter. Was it epoxy or glassfibre?
Regarding your small leaks, I'd go a step further and remove the internal panels in the cabins affected and see the extend of damage, if you can only see a small leak it may be a BIG leak that gets soaked into different layers of things before presenting itself in the internal lining. Act quick to avoid larger bills later!

ok, and a few photos of the superstructure as it stands now:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_46.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_47.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_48.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/deckrebuilt_49.jpg

Over the last week with two days of rain to ruin my working schedule :rolleyes:, I managed to get all the superstructure up to 3 full coats of CPES, sand AGAIN and coat the full deck a few more times reaching a total # of coats of 3-4, sika all the seams to the superstructure and the rubbing strake teak strip which i'll probably discard and redo at some point during the winter.
Further, started filling with thick epoxy all holes that were either created by previous owner or have their original filler missing over old bronze screws and galvanised steel nails. I'm talking of hundred of holes, cleaned with my dremel and appropriate brush bit first, coated with a bit of CPES and then filled in. That's what I call fun under the sun...

Result, i'm knackered, especially right knee's had enough. Also want to do the same on the decks with a few dozen 2.5mm holes that failed (as in drilled the hole to fit a 5X50 ss countersunk screw only to find that I missed the underlying frame, so move a cm and did another one... Now, all these are given a proper opening on top (with a 10mm drill) so that there is a reasonable hole to fill with epoxy. More fun working bend over the deck!

Currently trying to figure out a way of covering most of the craft without resorting to a full tubular steel superstructure and thick tent material on top to avoid all the daily humidity of the morning and be able to work a bit better over the rainy season (although i'll be mostly working inside)

Exterior work that needs doing atm is:

removing all windows, reparing any local rot with new timber/ply, sealing, coating, sanding and temp refitting windows with new seals until May-June when they'll be removed again for painting.
F/B layout redone, finish paint stripping on a few surfaces and half the deck up there
aft deck replacement
aft deck gunwale (is that the right term I wonder-talking about the "sidewalls" of the aft deck) removing of all old ply, treating existing construction and re-doing it with redesigned access hatches, builtin bench at the back etc.
Also time to decide on pasarelle and possibly cut an access door on the transom. These two relate to the decision on keeping or removing the davits as cutting door on transom and keeping davits dont work together in my book (structurally stupid...)

cheers

V.

rbcoomer
27-10-12, 08:10
Wow - that's quite a transformation and must feel good to regain some structural integrity to the decks once more. (Not having to worry what might break when you stand on it must help too! :rolleyes:)

I've been scrolling back through the thread recapping the various stages - I wonder how many hours you've done so far! :eek: A great job however and I can see a very rewarding grin when you get to the end. Please keep the pictures coming :)

KevB
28-10-12, 13:10
Probably the most interesting thread I've seen on ybw. Even more so than the infamous MB V threads. Looking forwards to seeing the finnished article. Roll on next summer.

rafiki_
28-10-12, 18:48
I have back ache just thinking about the sanding/painting. Raf's teak takes about 3 hrs a time, and it takes a bottle or 2 of wine to sort the back out afterwards!

vas
28-10-12, 19:21
thanks for all the comments guys,


Wow - that's quite a transformation and must feel good to regain some structural integrity to the decks once more. (Not having to worry what might break when you stand on it must help too! :rolleyes:)

I've been scrolling back through the thread recapping the various stages - I wonder how many hours you've done so far! :eek: A great job however and I can see a very rewarding grin when you get to the end. Please keep the pictures coming :)

Structural stability, hm, never reaaaally missed it. It was flexing alright, the worst point was when the bow end of the sundeck was chopped and was about to be replaced and then bolted to the bowdeck. That's where bow deck would flex almost 50mm :eek: but didn't break under my 80kg...

re hours, you got to fill my palm with silver only to get me in the mood of calculating days :p
Honest, I luckily enjoy most of it (yeah I know am a masochist) and other than getting too tired last week as I was racing against the weather and rain (only had two days of rain though and temps are up to mid 20s again...) I'm happy.

This week with the planned first top coat of epoxy (call it final primer if you wish) where i'll play abit with colours I could even say I'm excited and looking forward to it :D
Filling with thick epoxy the one zillion holes is another story, but still is fun :D


Probably the most interesting thread I've seen on ybw. Even more so than the infamous MB V threads. Looking forwards to seeing the finnished article. Roll on next summer.
indeed, looking forward to June/July myself!


I have back ache just thinking about the sanding/painting. Raf's teak takes about 3 hrs a time, and it takes a bottle or 2 of wine to sort the back out afterwards!
If I was following your "method" I should be seeking advice from AA by now mr ;)

Hopefully some drastic updates during the coming week

cheers

V.

FARSCO
28-10-12, 23:05
If I was following your "method" I should be seeking advice from AA by now mr.



Had heard the AA now do plumbing but boats too....all for 45 per year :D:D

Seriously, this is a fantastic thread and you are obviously very skilled, dedicated and patient. I would get fed up doing all the work you have done like preparing and filling holes so would rush it and make a hash no doubt.

Best wishes for the top coats and on to the next stages :)

jfm
28-10-12, 23:26
Fab stuff Vas. That's a big milestone getting it all epoxy sealed. You must be very pleased, as well as knackered. Looking forward to seeing pics of it in coloured paint next :-)

burgundyben
29-10-12, 09:43
And to think, in the past someone said my boat should be renamed the 'Epoxy Express'....

Looking much better.

rb_stretch
29-10-12, 12:29
A fantastic endeavour I have to say. Not something that I would ever have the perserverance to take on.

Just as a bit of inspiration, I thought you might be interested in this blog of someone rebuilding a sunken Fisher 30. He really explains everything in detail and in particular his thinking behind the various problems he encounters. I've been following it for the last year.

http://www.fisher30.lackeysailing.com/project.html

vas
03-11-12, 04:50
thanks for the kind comments!

@bb: if yours going to be called EE, then mine should be EE2 or something like MoreEE :D
@jfm&FARSCO: trying to reduce filling time after first coat of coloured epoxy so a bit of a delay and more backpain due to more bending and filling (with thick epoxy for that mater)
@rb_stretch: yes I'm aware of this thread, too organised and structured for my liking, and I think would be too boring (at times I do believe this one is too boring as well...) Good thing you posted as I'd not bookmarked it and lost it at some point before the summer!

Update time.
Too much work at real work, not too good weather (rained one day) and trying to fill more holes and improve the surfaces to avoid lots of filling sanding after the coloured epoxy. However reaching a point where it makes sense to use colour as I spot a hole to fill only to find that the clear epoxy makes it look like a hole but it's nice and smooth. After a dozen of such cases you are well p1ssed off and want to start painting :rolleyes:

George finishes all the small patches here and there in the superstructure. Today and tomorrow we'll remove the saloon windows+frames and he'll work on small patches of rotten/blackened ply around (luckily not many)
Rain is predicted for Wed, so if we believe them, plenty of time to dry, coat locally the area and refit. Not had much luck finding replacement seal for the almost 40yo original item (which is rocksolid and breaks apart if stressed!) Will probably get a temp solution with a near fit for the winter and source a proper solution over the winter.

a few examples of the stbrd side repairs

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_18.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_19.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_20.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_21.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_23.jpg


Removed the lump of timber on the port side of the f/b where the arch was secured, found a nicely rotten piece of ply underneath (as per the stbrd side...) and replaced. Photo is preparing the hole, note a dark patch on the right bottom of the pick just off the hole, had to do an extra patch there. All to be sanded and CPESed today:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_deck_9.jpg

And after the time spend filling the 4 M10 holes on the stbrd side, cut and replaced them wtih new ply on the port side. Ah, well experience...
BTW must have spent 3h sorting the filled up area on stbrd and it still looks carp. I guess it will be another 3-4h filling sanding and swearing before it looks half decent!

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_22.jpg

Another round of sanding/filling for me today (also got to finish sanding the f/b floor and remove the two godawful grp seats for the f/b helm) and stealth grey painting in various tones tomorrow for the helm ceiling/sides and sundeck.
New report on Sunday eve if not too knackered.

A new problem that arises is that I was happy with slow curing CPES taking just over a day to cure at 25-30C but now takes half a week with 15-17at night and 22-23C daytime :(
Ended up getting some faster partB component and will be matching slow and fast to create decent 1day solution. Don't really want it too fast as it wont penetrate but not too slow as it never bleeding dries!

cheers

V.

LittleShip
03-11-12, 10:25
as it never bleeding dries!

Hmmm, A little frustration setting in :)

Tom

vas
03-11-12, 21:20
as it never bleeding dries!

Hmmm, A little frustration setting in :)

Tom

yeah, I'd like to know how many months CPES with working time of 188mins would need to cure in your loverly weather :p

Switched to epoxy that only has 25min working time and all is nice with 18-23C ;)

lots of progress and some detailing that health and safety freaks would love to see...
Emptied the f/b in order to seal the rest of it. Had to remove the twin helm seat, a godawful construction rotting away and keeping the propane gas bottle (and a spare in it). Tried to remove the flex pipe (there's a hard copper pipe routed inside to the galley) and came across this amazing detail. PO had an obviously failing flex pipe and instead of replacing it (dunno would cost 20-50cent!) he opted for keeping 30mm length original pipe at each end INSIDE a clear flex water pipe... FFS!
Further, on unbolting the seating I found a nice piece of synthetic GRASS underneath the box, all soaking. Unbelievable!

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_deck_10.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_deck_11.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_deck_12.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_deck_13.jpg

3h later it was like this ready for CPES, so saved it! Note, that the stbrd side was already coated twice, there is a zig-zag pattern separating the two, but the rest will be on two coats tommorw ;)


http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_deck_14.jpg

Also removed the stbrd side saloon window frame and George repaired the rear lower corner that was rotten, not a large patch but important nontheless. Also cleared and filled two more spots and sanded/removed old layers of paint the whole surrounding and epoxied it once.


http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_24.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_25.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_26.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_28.jpg


The following is not giving much detail, but frames nicely the bloke fishing in the background. It was a really lovely and v.sunny day!
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_27.jpg


So tomorrow if I'm lucky I should be coating with coloured epoxy the helm roof and adding a coat of epoxy on the f/b deck.

cheers

V.

newWave
03-11-12, 22:23
Looking forward to see her shine ;)
Keep up the good work.

jfm
04-11-12, 11:24
Good going Vas. Anticipation buiding here because you have nearly finished the plywood fixes and so will be adding the coloured epoxy - can't wait to see

PMSL here at the fake grass. I mean, wtf? I'm thinking maybe the whole fb was done in fake grass, with the seat box screwed on top, then a later owner removed the grass but had to cut around the seat box, so leaving that patch. Can you image the whole deck in fake grass LOL?

rafiki_
04-11-12, 11:32
Good going Vas. Anticipation buiding here because you have nearly finished the plywood fixes and so will be adding the coloured epoxy - can't wait to see

PMSL here at the fake grass. I mean, wtf? I'm thinking maybe the whole fb was done in fake grass, with the seat box screwed on top, then a later owner removed the grass but had to cut around the seat box, so leaving that patch. Can you image the whole deck in fake grass LOL?

Perhaps a previous owner was a golfer, and liked to practice the swing on the f/bridge?

I'm just thinking what a Boat Safety Cert inspector would make of the gas installation too:)

longjohnsilver
04-11-12, 11:32
And to think, in the past someone said my boat should be renamed the 'Epoxy Express'....

Looking much better.

Ben, are you sure they said (e)poxy? :D

vas
05-11-12, 13:10
hm, should ask if PO was a golfer...
It would be absolutely hilarious with the whole f/b in fake grass :D
Unfortunately it MUST'VE BEEN like that for sometime, as JFM points, it's clear that they had the grass, fitted the trimmed iroko to take the curvature of the deck, bolted the two boxes for the seating on top and at some later point trimmed the grass out, wouldn't bother with the seating and retrimmed with the less godawful vinil with black strips (a la Princess deck)

Spent most of Sunday at home with the kids so that the wife could finish off some pressing work so couldn't do the coloured epoxy testing/painting, sorry guys :(
Only had time to remove the port saloon window, George did three patches I filled/sanded/epoxied again the surroundings of the stbrd window and later fitted temporarily both windows in replacing the original hard as a rock seal with some homemade from stripping a pipe foam insulation in two and pushing it in the ss edge of the frame, not elegant but works in case we do have a shower or two before I remove to sand/paint and refit.

Next set of pics are of the port window, focus on the three patches and repaired/finished article:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_29.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_30.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_31.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_32.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_33.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_34.jpg

Final pics is of the stbrd side finished and replaced:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_35.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_36.jpg

Since the weather is going to be nice and mild (sun, 18-22 a shower or two on Wed and sun again) I decided to have a go at finishing the basic work needed in the f/b before I cover the top and start working on the aft deck and then hull and inside.

So plan for the next 3-4days is to reconfigure the f/b helm, do a couple more patches on the aft of the f/b deck where the two main supports for the railings are, decide on a way to fit the railing again in place securely and paint the helm roof. See how much of that I'll manage with all the work disruption :D

One thing I'm not particularly happy and sure about is what do I do with the f/b flooring. I mean I will have a fixed L shaped seating with the actual helm seat doubling as a corner sofa sort of thing (some swapable backrest needed/half designed it already). But I don't particularly like painted ply (and I wont even discuss astra turf or other synthetic grass options!), so I'm thinking of laying teak there as well, maybe a bit thinner 8mm compared to 10 I'll probably do for the deck (or 6 vs 8mm, not decided yet).
Concerns are weight way up there, railing supports that will be lifted 8mm and wont quite fit properly on the fixed points towards the front (not really a serious issue tbh)
So, what does the panel think?

cheers

V.

BartW
05-11-12, 15:32
what do I do with the f/b flooring. I mean I will have a fixed L shaped seating with the actual helm seat doubling as a corner sofa sort of thing (some swapable backrest needed/half designed it already). But I don't particularly like painted ply

teac for me, without doubt,
same type like downstairs.

I would do the complete empty surface,
because you never know in future if you like another configuration for the seats, etc...

jfm
05-11-12, 16:12
Yup, teak. 6mm is fine; you don't need 8. Or synthetic teak as in Ellesar's current thread. Then make the seat base boxes in ply or GRP

BartW
05-11-12, 16:42
Or synthetic teak as in Ellesar's current thread.

in a fully wooden boat ?
I apreciate and accept the quality of modern synthetic teak, but I wouldn't in this case

MattM
05-11-12, 20:05
Vas,

A fantastic thread, thank you for sharing with us.:)

As the scope of your project is so complex, i wondered whether there is any sort of legal requirement to have the work inspected and certified? In the UK domestic electrical work (in some cases) requires certification as does structural building work - is there a similar requirement for pleasure boats?

petem
05-11-12, 20:34
That's one hell of a labour of love. Respect to you Vas. Keep up the good work!

rafiki_
05-11-12, 23:17
Vas,

A fantastic thread, thank you for sharing with us.:)

As the scope of your project is so complex, i wondered whether there is any sort of legal requirement to have the work inspected and certified? In the UK domestic electrical work (in some cases) requires certification as does structural building work - is there a similar requirement for pleasure boats?

Good point, but not required in the UK, and don't know about Greece. Boats, once in service, are only inspected to the Boat Safety Scheme for the inland waterways, not coastal. While I'd salute Vas for bringing his boat to the R Severn, I feel it unlikely. The inspection would cover the visible harnesses/fuel system/gas system.

wakeup
06-11-12, 10:15
Yup, teak. 6mm is fine; you don't need 8. Or synthetic teak as in Ellesar's current thread. Then make the seat base boxes in ply or GRP

+1 for teak, she'll look a classy classic .

MapisM
06-11-12, 11:13
in a fully wooden boat ?
I apreciate and accept the quality of modern synthetic teak, but I wouldn't in this case
At risk of appearing sacrilegious, I'm not so sure, B.
I perfectly see what you mean with regard to the teak "feeling" of course, but since the biggest enemy of wooden boats is the rain water, I must admit that when time will come to rebuild my boat deck (and it's just a matter of "when", not of "if"), I will give non-teak materials a serious thought.
And I'm talking of "non-teak" rather than "synthetic", because cork would definitely be one of the alternatives I would consider more carefully.

BartW
06-11-12, 12:32
At risk of appearing sacrilegious, I'm not so sure, B.
I perfectly see what you mean with regard to the teak "feeling" of course, but since the biggest enemy of wooden boats is the rain water, I must admit that when time will come to rebuild my boat deck (and it's just a matter of "when", not of "if"), I will give non-teak materials a serious thought.
And I'm talking of "non-teak" rather than "synthetic", because cork would definitely be one of the alternatives I would consider more carefully.

No experience with cork myself, but indeed this is a natural product that could be allowed on a wooden boat :)
are you sure that this is more water proof then teak ?

we both have a better solution imho, and that is a cover over the boat (at least over the FB)
coincidently I have placed my custom made cover on BA last sunday.
will post pics when I find some time, also from a few other maintenance works we did last week.

MapisM
06-11-12, 12:44
will post pics when I find some time, also from a few other maintenance works we did last week.
Please do, I for one am interested to have a look!
Re. cork vs. teak, have you ever seen teak used to seal a bottle of champagne...? :D
That aside, another important advantage of cork is that it can be laid in large panels, with just a very few junctions.
You must compromise on aesthetic, though.
As I mentioned in the thread on this specific subject, it looks even more "fake" than some fully synthetic stuff.

BartW
06-11-12, 12:52
Re. cork vs. teak, have you ever seen teak used to seal a bottle of champagne...?


but a good bottle of wine has to "breath" iirc :)



That aside, another important advantage of cork is that it can be laid in large panels, with just a very few junctions.
You must compromise on aesthetic, though.
As I mentioned in the thread on this specific subject, it looks even more "fake" than some fully synthetic stuff.

yes and therefor I wouldn't want it,
If you have a wooden boat, you have to accept that there is much more maintenance work then with plastic,
At least that is how i see it after owning a 50% wooden boat for two seasons,
might change my mind in a few years though :)

MapisM
06-11-12, 12:59
might change my mind in a few years though
LOL, you bet!
Been there, done that, and got the tee shirt... :D

vas
06-11-12, 21:48
thanks for the comments guys,

MattM, as rafiki says no need for anything fancy. Craft is tested every two years once at sea, once out. That's typical practice down here for the necessary certificates. BTW, it's not coded or anything, just plain private vessel.
What they want to see is all the safety equipment, fire extinguishers, check the hull around, ruders, anchor/backup, etc. That will obviously be covered. Noone will ever bother to check the pipework for the hob, or has a plan of the existing layout or other such things. TBH, hadn't had the pleasure to have the inspectors around yet, will do in spring, so I can report then.
Also consider that I'm not altering structurally the craft, only removed a non loadbearing bulkhead between the two bathrooms on strbrd and will be adding two to create the two bathrooms on the port side...

Re teak vs cork vs faketeak, I'd go with Bart and wont consider the faketeak (although it would be less hurting on my back to do it :rolleyes: )
As I've said before, many ppl here recommend cork for lightness, ease and cool surface to walk under the sun. However as MM points, it looks awfully fake and tbh the caulking is pointless on a reprosessed/cast/whatever material. There's no grain, no form that makes sense to preserve... So looks like it's going to be 6mm teak.
Regarding Bart's suggestion to lay teak everywhere and fit the furniture on top, I do have a slight problem that although structurally the f/b deck is sound, all beams are solid, no rot whatsoever, there is an amount of flexing as you walk on the f/b. Also with the awful helm seating I've removed I realised that the curvature of the deck has been altered on the area of the seating (it's flatter now and becomes more curved as you move towards the stern -where the saloon sliding doors are). So I was thinking of fitting a couple of "leaders" if you wish athwartship with the right curvature (traced from 1m aft) and hence "helping" the deck take the right curvature again. I'll bolt the ply seating construction on these two beams.
Not sure we shall see. For sure if I go for full length teak, I'll need to glue and bolt it down else it will be a mess...

Anyway, today was a very destructively productive (or productively destructive :rolleyes:) day. Sun was shining (excessively I may add for Nov...) temp was 27C and was quite windy that's keeping you cool but can lead to a nice sunstroke or sunburn.

Took me four hours to remove all f/b helm and a couple of hours sanding/preparing/sealing/sorting out cabling.

Started like this:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_1.jpg

Checked and documented the colour coding for all the wiring:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_2.jpg

Easy to remove the panels:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_3.jpg

as well as the old Detroit dash:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_4.jpg

Measured and cut the part of the original helm "pod" that I'm going to reuse. At this point it did look very messy...
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_5.jpg

And later on, cleared, sanded and halfway through epoxy sealing:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_6.jpg


George worked on the aft of the f/b deck sorting a couple of patches but soon decided to remove a 150mm strip of ply from port to stbrd and reconstruct the whole lip and ending of the f/b deck. Was too messy with a couple of nasty patches (one was glued with polyurethene foam!!!)

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_deck_15.jpg

The U shaped (in plan) panel that will be reused will be trimmed and measured and will be test fitted on Thursday (rain predicted for tomorrow but tbh couldn't see a single cloud so I'm not so sure about it)
This shape will help formulate the extension to the original bit of slanted ply coming out towards the helm seating.
Following pic shows original design for the f/b helm, have a dozen new sketches but no time to scan and upload atm
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt/fb_sketch1.jpg

cheers

V.

vas
11-11-12, 15:32
update,

fb reconstruction in progress, cut and test fitted the new underdash drawer thing, didn't like it as it was too large, sliced another 80mm out of it bringing it further forward and sliced 140mm on it's width making it really nice and tiny ;) The idea is that I can bring the helm bench/seating further forward and be able to helm for a bit standing with no issues.

no comments on the test seating arrangement plz :D
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_7.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_8.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_9.jpg

Next pic is with the further reduced in size drawer. Have a feeling it's going to be a pig to get the two engine controls on it and manage to bend the cabling properly, will know for sure tomorrow:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_10.jpg

The following is today with test fitting the extension to the helm "shelf" as the the design on the pic after:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_11.jpg

Now, next one is what I'm finally planning to go for, an uber sleek and minimal design with the dial, indicators and start stop buttons all mounted straight on the slanted panel. This leeds to a central boxy thing to cover the steering pump and further forward house the compass. All bits above the "shelf" will be painted black :cool:
Garmin 520 will be placed on the same slanted panel to the stbrd side of the dash
The "cover" of the steering pump will create a nice ledge over the dials shading them during the day but most likely making them invisible when helming standing (which I'll probably never do unless on v.dodgy conditions when I wont bother with the rev meter tbh).
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_12.jpg
Biggest challenge is to fit all bits straight on the curved ply without butchering the lower part to gain access. Need to draw a section to get the idea but currently there's no access to the "inside" of the slanted panel where the dials would go. Probably drill a decent sized hole in the middle where the compass box will cover it and get my hand through there for final pluggin and setting. We shall see...

Another issue to report on is colours...

Had a go at testing the final coat of epoxy with special epoxy pigments so that
A. blemishes show up
B. see how she'll look on the colour scheme I'm thinking and I'm not bothered to do on pshop :rolleyes:

Turns out that you need 50% of the volume of epoxy for the pigment to cover the wood colour/grain and the following pics are just two tests. Lower helm roof was too little pigment to register (just shown on the side and around the end where I did two coats). Sunpad was ok but not too different to the helm roof, so need to do a not so slightly darker version for the sunpad to get the right contrast. For the record, the further slanted part above the helm roof leading to the f/b helmstation will be a v.dark shade almost black as will be the helm window surroundings (that was an original feature btw):

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_37.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_38.jpg

More on both colouring and f/b helm layout tomorrow eve (was so knackered during the week that yesterday I clocked a full 12h sleep :eek: and I'm now feeling OK :D)

cheers

V.

rafiki_
11-11-12, 19:04
Vas, I like your sketch, and this should look quite neat when complete. Also like your sprocket and chain. Is this for the dumb waiter:D

rbcoomer
11-11-12, 21:03
Vas, I like your sketch, and this should look quite neat when complete. Also like your sprocket and chain. Is this for the dumb waiter:D

+1 I also think the layout looks good - I like the uber-sleek concept, but was the a bit confused by:

The "cover" of the steering pump will create a nice ledge over the dials shading them during the day but most likely making them invisible when helming standing (which I'll probably never do unless on v.dodgy conditions when I wont bother with the rev meter tbh).

Are you saying there will be a 'shelf' over the minimalist steering box, and if so, won't this obstruct the Garmin too when standing? Or are you referring to the earlier drawing with dials on the 'pod' behind the helm? (I'm taking it that the shelf only applied to the larger pod with dials therein)

I have to say that with the coloured finish, it seems to be turning a corner and once that finish is applied she'll start to look the part once more! :cool:

vas
13-11-12, 20:17
okay, maybe it wasn't clear enough, the following pic shows the layout as I'm currently considering. The central boxy thing covers the steering wheel pump and goes towards the dash extending to cover the engine gauges, indicators and start/stop buttons:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_15.jpg

In the meantime, 4X6mm plys were layered to take the proper curvature and cover the new minimal underdash drawer thingy. First clamped together:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_13.jpg
and how it looks now:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_14.jpg
I'll try and clear up the trim inside the lower helm making space to re-route the engine cables to the f/b helm and find a way of fitting them. I have a feeling that I'll have to chop a bit of this panel to get the cable to work :(
George decided that the finish on the rest of this "shelf" was bad (it really is rather tired...) and he stripped a 6mm ply down to 2mm so that he's going to glue it on top of the old ply and make a decent finish.
Spent over an hour sanding this bit of the dash both the shelf and the slanted dash but still not happy...

In the meantime I did a few more colour tests.
Initial plan was to have two tones of grey and a black. Light grey on the sides and lower helm roof, darker grey on the sundeck and sides of it up to the engine vents and blackish on the helm windows surrounds and the top protrusion forming the upper helm.
Now, did a slight cockup and ended up with two very similar greys :rolleyes:
Anyway, ended up on two coats == decent coverage on lower helm roof that was meant to be the light being rather dark.
So today tried a much lighter grey for the sundeck.
No photos as it took me ages to do the final sanding of the deck, proper cleaning it and painted and turned quite dark by the time I finished...
The following is a pic from yesterday showing the light grey and a square patch of the darker grey. Being all rather glossy the lower helm roof's darker grey and the upper helm almost black are indestinguishabe. You can also see the black on a test on the stbrd side of the windscreen frame:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_39.jpg

I wonder what ppl think of non gloss finish on a boat. They look v.nice on fixed cabinets at home, but I guess salty water and all sorts of deposits will be a pain to keep reasonably clean!
Anyone?

Unfortunately (or fortunately) winter is here, turned on CH today, rain is forecasted for the following 5-6days so I'm happy to having reach the point of more or less sealing the superstructure. However temps were up to 22 today, go figure...
Tomorrow morning George and I should finish the upper helm shelf and epoxy it before the rain comes (easy to cover it as well)

My main concern is to manage to get hold of a large enough cover for the f/b covering from the lower helm roof all the way aft to the davits so that I can work and replace the aft deck without being wet and freezing as the aft deck is looking at the sea and open to N and NW winds (ie the cold stuff down here...).

Following and when some decent and dry days come, i'll continue with filler, sanding and preparing the exterior bits. Plan is to do 80% of the preparation and only need a couple of weeks for final sanding/priming (if necessary) and two pack polyurethene paint.

Knackered, probably an update tomorrow eve

cheers

V.

rbcoomer
14-11-12, 19:54
okay, maybe it wasn't clear enough, the following pic shows the layout as I'm currently considering. The central boxy thing covers the steering wheel pump and goes towards the dash extending to cover the engine gauges, indicators and start/stop buttons:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_15.jpg



Hi Vas,

Ah yes, understand what you mean now! Not sure on the end result however and think I prefer without the 'shelf'! :o Although it doesn't extend far enough to obstruct the Garmin, to me it seems neither one thing or the other... I do prefer the dials etc on the slope however and can see that being more practical. What was the objective of the shelf?

I do like the contrasting greys and from the picture it appears almost silver/black. I think I prefer the lighter grey on the bow section, but can see the issue getting enough pigment to cover - I guess more coats or a mix of grey/white pigment perhaps to increase opacity?

Very much looking forward to the next update/fix as not much happening with mine (sorting car for MoT currently between work & work)

Keep up the good work - it's an inspiration. :)

Best regards,

Robin

rafiki_
14-11-12, 20:17
Vas, I'm not convinced about a non gloss finish. I love to see Rafiki polished up and shining. How would a on gloss finish look after a could of years.

vas
15-11-12, 16:24
Robin, I'm not either sure it's going to look good with this ledge thing. certainly the sketch doesn't do justice but working with ply/wood means you can easily test/mod/scrap all without much trouble and no stinking glassfibre...
I'm toying with the idea of slightly slanted sides to the this boxy cover to the steering pump but too busy with real work to bother modeling it in acad, so will do on the spot once the weather is kind to me (raining for the last couple of days)

rafiki, not at all sure the brilliant or silk or whatever this finish is called is going to work. It does reduce the amount of work that has to be done to get the sundeck smooth though :D the more shiny the paint the more work filling and sanding :rolleyes:

Took a couple of pics today after all the rain washed down all the woodchips and dust. Does look like the sundeck should be lighter even (this is a 10% black compared to a 32% black for the lower helm roof and a 60% black for the upper helm strip)

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_40.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_41.jpg

going to be quiet for a few days as I finish some uni work and wait for the weather.

A good thing is that I managed to trace a reasonable rubber seal for the ss window frames at around 4euro/m that hopefully will look good (it's black at least!) and last another dozen years or so :D


l8r

V.

wakeup
15-11-12, 16:34
How about a nice section of tinted Perspex instead of the ply shelf? Would provide the shade needed but also allow you to see the dials from an oblique angle.

pete1987
15-11-12, 18:28
Robin, I'm not either sure it's going to look good with this ledge thing. certainly the sketch doesn't do justice but working with ply/wood means you can easily test/mod/scrap all without much trouble and no stinking glassfibre...
I'm toying with the idea of slightly slanted sides to the this boxy cover to the steering pump but too busy with real work to bother modeling it in acad, so will do on the spot once the weather is kind to me (raining for the last couple of days)

rafiki, not at all sure the brilliant or silk or whatever this finish is called is going to work. It does reduce the amount of work that has to be done to get the sundeck smooth though :D the more shiny the paint the more work filling and sanding :rolleyes:

Took a couple of pics today after all the rain washed down all the woodchips and dust. Does look like the sundeck should be lighter even (this is a 10% black compared to a 32% black for the lower helm roof and a 60% black for the upper helm strip)

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_40.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_41.jpg

going to be quiet for a few days as I finish some uni work and wait for the weather.

A good thing is that I managed to trace a reasonable rubber seal for the ss window frames at around 4euro/m that hopefully will look good (it's black at least!) and last another dozen years or so :D


l8r

V.
Vas,

I think the colours look great. Certainly a satin rather than full gloss finish wouldn't show as many imperfections. As with satin and Matt finishes on cars, either painted or wrapped you can't polish them, just needs a wash off.
You've been quite bold with the colours, I love the look of it and hope u decide on a matt/satin finish. The boat is a really striking design (I'm biased obviously) and think a clean, satin finish will really compliment the decks and alloy hardware. Some purists will scowl of course but I think it's gonna look stunning and can't wait to see the end result.

My boat is obviously the sister ship of yours so its really good to see what can be done with a bit of flare and bravery!

jfm
15-11-12, 18:49
Looking great Vas. I think a lighter grey will work better on the sundeck. 5% black or something. But you have already figured that one out, from your post.

Fantastic stuff anyway. Much credit to you

I'm not convinced about the shelf over the tachos either, but that's a small point

MapisM
16-11-12, 00:16
Robin, I'm not either sure it's going to look good with this ledge thing.
I don't dislike the idea as such, but two things make it look as a weird sort of shelf, imho: the fact that it's horizontal, and that it's an extension of the steering pump box.
I'd rather think about a lip covering as much as possible of the dashboard, and with a downward angle towards the bow - something along the lines of the sketch below.
Btw, you shouldn't forget that a convenient way to cover the f/b helm is an absolute must, to protect it from sun and rain, and a straight lip extended over the whole dashboard could in turn be used as a support for the canvas cover.
With apologies if I'm teaching you to suck eggs... :)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b380/mapism/Various/fb_helm_12.jpg

Divemaster1
18-11-12, 18:36
Vas,

Hope you don't mind me posting here, but you asked me in another post to take some pictures of the bow, winch & roller arrangement on Navigator, so here you go...

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u100/Astrale45/2012%20Shore/IMG-20121118-00013.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u100/Astrale45/2012%20Shore/IMG-20121118-00017.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u100/Astrale45/2012%20Shore/IMG-20121118-00014.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u100/Astrale45/2012%20Shore/IMG-20121118-00015.jpg

vas
18-11-12, 21:22
How about a nice section of tinted Perspex instead of the ply shelf? Would provide the shade needed but also allow you to see the dials from an oblique angle.

nice idea wakeup,

not sure how it's going to end up, I guess it's going to develop on the spot with the jigsaw :rolleyes:
The idea of the ledge over the dials was to:
A. cut the sun so you can see what's going on
B. protect from lots of rain and dirt
C. help in creating concealed mounting points for a small, flexible cover for the area

At one point I was sketching some foldable/shiftable bits of ply that would work as shades and then pull and tilt over the dials to cover them completely for storing...
Perpex is going to indeed be functional, but you have to see my son and his crazy friends playing hide and seek on the boat, steping on anything and even jumping over the f/b helm to the ceiling and rolling down the sundeck :rolleyes:

One of them broke a piece of the perspex screen on the f/b helm and I'm seriously considering not having one, or having a very short one (original was around 350mm high, maybe a 200mm one or nothing at all!)


Vas,

I think the colours look great. Certainly a satin rather than full gloss finish wouldn't show as many imperfections. As with satin and Matt finishes on cars, either painted or wrapped you can't polish them, just needs a wash off.
You've been quite bold with the colours, I love the look of it and hope u decide on a matt/satin finish. The boat is a really striking design (I'm biased obviously) and think a clean, satin finish will really compliment the decks and alloy hardware. Some purists will scowl of course but I think it's gonna look stunning and can't wait to see the end result.

My boat is obviously the sister ship of yours so its really good to see what can be done with a bit of flare and bravery!

:D
probably we are both biased Pete.
Have to say that looks better on the pics than real life atm, as the lower helm ceiling needs a days at least work filling and sanding. Sundeck probably 3days...
But the combo of
5% black for the sundeck
35% back for the rest of the superstructure
80% black for the dark frames around the windshield and the protrusion of the f/b helm should make an interesting design stressing the original lines.


Looking great Vas. I think a lighter grey will work better on the sundeck. 5% black or something. But you have already figured that one out, from your post.

Fantastic stuff anyway. Much credit to you

I'm not convinced about the shelf over the tachos either, but that's a small point
thanks JFM, as I wrote above, we shall see if/what shelf there will be at the end
If I'm lucky with the weather (meant to be raining for the following 4-5days) I'll place the steering wheel tomorrow morning and sort out the engine controls and mock up the box for the steering wheel and compass.


I don't dislike the idea as such, but two things make it look as a weird sort of shelf, imho: the fact that it's horizontal, and that it's an extension of the steering pump box.
I'd rather think about a lip covering as much as possible of the dashboard, and with a downward angle towards the bow - something along the lines of the sketch below.
Btw, you shouldn't forget that a convenient way to cover the f/b helm is an absolute must, to protect it from sun and rain, and a straight lip extended over the whole dashboard could in turn be used as a support for the canvas cover.
With apologies if I'm teaching you to suck eggs... :)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b380/mapism/Various/fb_helm_12.jpg

First of all, no need to apologise, I can always learn or get a different perspective out of what's in my mind and that's a v.good thing!
Was in the plans MM, especially an easy to use cover that wont have all these horrible buttons/clips visible all around.
One issue I have to address carefully and which caused most of the damage up there was carefully designing the waterways from the existing shelf down.
Now, the boxy thing in the middle unfortunatelly will mean that I need 4 holes in the main shelf: two on each side at the respective ends. Only not exactly at the ends as I'll have to fit pipes routing the water down (especially at the holes in proximity to the central box) Will investigate over the next few days with the rain pouring down and drill them now. Planning on using 10mm holes so that I can seal them with epoxy properly and later on paint without blocking the actual waterway. May have to go for larger holes though :(
I wonder if there are readymade hollow sections that I can "bolt" into a hole and connect a 12mm or something hose at the lower end under the shelf...


Alf, thanks for the photos, was wondering how yours dealt with the bow roller and central stanchion for the railing, but what they've done is add another two stanchions (not possible in my case) so I have to do it the original way (after repairing and welding the existing broken stanchion..

Managed to do a couple of hours work today, sanded and epoxied the new fully built shelf, looks good but will need another filling session and another coat before I'll put colour to it. Being a cheapskate you can moreorless figure the final shape by the bits I covered with epoxy :rolleyes: :
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_16.jpg


Now, three issues to report:

A. f/b stanchion bases, nice slanted alloy bits (I recon lathed from solid billet) with a through hole and an M6 screw BENT and ending in a 20odd mm dia woodscrew that was plugged in the f/b deck. Needless to say that ALL 8 bases had worked loose, rain water seeped in, rotted the deck and part of the underlying block of timber-typical...
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_railing_1.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_railing_2.jpg

Now, first of all, I find the detailing plain silly wouldn't believe it at the beginning but seems that it is factory original. Makes for the first foul I can identify from dear Versilcraft.
Since I've removed all linings underneath, plan is to mark and drill 8mm holes (hole on the alloy bit is actually 8.something mm!) and get SS bolts through the whole deck and prepare the wooden block underneath with a proper rightangle to the bolt surface (so slanted around 20degrees) and screw them tightly down. Stanchions are push-in and secured with the allen 4M ss headless bolt (I bet you have a better name for this description but you get the point...)

B. my mechanical engine controls are by Kobalt (Canada) got to their webpage was impressed the model is there with all details (2091-2093) and their marketing blurb trying to persuade us that it's the best manual control ever made... Removed the one to test fit it on of the following days and realised that the cables from the f/b to the lower helm are around half a metre too long and have been placed in a v. convoluted way that wont work now with the minimal under helm box. That's a job that I can do even when raining so should report on that soon. I wonder if I can get cables locally or if it is possible to shorten the existing ones, we shall see.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/push-pull_1.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/push-pull_2.jpg

C. the custom temp foam seal for the two saloon windows don't work too well, and there's water seeping in at the bottom :(
So had a go at a few shops around Volos trying to find a matching rubber section to replace the original hard/burnt out one. Tested two of them would be v.happy if the second one worked as the first one is too "busy" with two folds and does look cr4p. However although technically BOTH will seal the ss frame allright, none is good enough. So I'm contacting a company in Athens that has a good number of different sections trying to find a better match.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_42.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/helm_ply_repairs_43.jpg

tomorrow I'm ordering the 8X14m 190gr/m2 cover (that's 112m2 and 21kilos of white plastic...) so by wed MiToS should be all covered (aft deck excluded!)

hm, typed too much, back to real work ;)

cheers

V.

vas
19-11-12, 20:20
hm, this time I was quick :D

another update regarding f/b helm.
Took me 3 h to measure, cut holes, disassembe and reassemble the levers in place. Now all look nice and tidy!

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_17.jpg

cut, note the fit of the 4X6mm plys to the original slanted shelf:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_18.jpg

Both engine controls on, test fitting the steering:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_19.jpg

Mock up of an old idea, trying to follow the curve of the dark/black slanted section on top of the lower helm roof and getting this slope all the way to the steering. Good idea, even looks okayish from above:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_20.jpg

but awful from low down... Was thinking of sticking the gauges/indicators for the engines in here, no way!
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_21.jpg

Then I cut a few more pieces I found lying around to test the other idea/sketch I've posted last week but with the two sides slanted both in plan and section. This creates a rather large shelf for the compass and even more space in front:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_22.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_23.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_24.jpg


This slope will be halfway between the dark/black section mentioned before and the shelf where the engine controls lie. So will be sloping towards the bow. If it's not raining tomorrow (I doubt it!) I'll do a proper mock and prepare and bolt the 30X30mm supports for it. Will also have to connect the steering so that I can replace the steering pump at the lazarette and see how many turns I'll get with the old pump.

BTW, managed to sort out the cables for the engine controls, the stbrd engine ones were too long and ended up making a 360 smooth turn before exiting, but looks and feels good:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_25.jpg

V.

jfm
19-11-12, 21:29
Fab stuff. I can't load all the pics so will check back later

Lots of drains available Vas, eg these (http://www.seascrew.com/browse.cfm?THROUGH-HULL---SKIN---BULKHEAD-FITTINGS&l=0000000027)

Headless bolts = "grub screws" :D

vas
21-11-12, 12:59
thanks jfm,

these drain bits are all a bit too large for my liking the size of the shelf, we shall see.

P155ing down the last two days, so doing some real work instead...
Tried another rubber seal local co, looking for new seals for the windows/windscreen to no avail. However he said that for around 200euro I could have a mold for the exact section I want and get a company (in Athens though) to do the 50odd metres I want. A long shot in case someone knows/works/whatever this is the section I want (size in mm and approx could accomodate a 10% - and up to 20% + on these:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/windowseal_1.jpg
it's a quick draft, will modify it slightly before going for the mold unless I get something that fits. Maybe Mystere group buy in order if Pete and MM want to replace molded seals :rolleyes:


cheers

V.

vas
23-11-12, 22:19
a few pics of the f/b helm.
It's temp, made of scrap ply, if I decide on it, I'll use the pieces as templates and cut it in new 12mm ply. Good thing with all this rebuilt is that I've got loads of scrap ply that I can make mocks with...

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_26.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_27.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_28.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_29.jpg

Quite happy tbh, but not over the moon.
I mean, it's reasonably minimal, there's place for the one gauge and 4 warning lights on each side, just level to the engine lever. I may even be able to squeeze the start/stop push buttons there as well.
Compass is also well placed up there, no problems.

HOWEVER, I'm not at all convinced I want to now have the Garmin520 on the stbrd side of the slanted panel...
Also I need a reasonable way of mounting:

the tab controls (two toggles atm!)
the windlass and
the 3pushbuttons and 2 leds for the a/p engage/dissengage and turn


the vhf will be a handset thing so will probably be secured under the shelf on port side.

I was also toying with the idea of going towards this shape bringing the compass towards the wheel and giving a bit more extra space on the slanted panel for switches and stuff (although they are far away and not in immediate reach...)
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt4/fb_helm_30.jpg
On the sketch it really resembles a coffin so not too keen :rolleyes:

Was also thinking of squeezing the windlass and a/p controls on the small trapezium shaped piece (that's currently missing in the photos...) behind the wheel.
Don't think it will be easy to accidentally hit any one, but will test again with the wheel in place.

Any ideas/comments?

cheers

V.

Divemaster1
24-11-12, 12:11
Vas,

you have locked yourself down by placing gearleavers already ... consider both leavers on one side... or, can steering pump be on an angle ??

We have four levers on far Stb, angled panes for full instrumentation and switches etc. towards wheel... on eighter side ... but you could even consider all controls on one side and navigation on other .... Plotter is there for reference when underway (but do not replace your eyes) , and when anchoring echo sounder is more of value ...

vas
24-11-12, 13:03
Alf, my levers are rather hard, so using both hands in a balanced way is imho the only reasonable way of moving them. Got used to it, no problems there.
Steering is slanted around 15deg from the already slanted shelf so comes up to a reasonable height.

Today fitted the steering in order to bleed (with little success...) the system and came up with an idea on the ledge over the gauges/ind.bulbs that I really liked!
So seems I'm settling for this:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_31.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_32.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_33.jpg

the ledges come out on the centre of the compass hole vertical to the slanted oposite edge, makes for a smooth detail (to my eyes...) that will also enable me to have a small 10-15mm ledge over the sides of this pod and thus make this cover removable without compromising the space inside with rain water leaking in.
Obviously I'm going to get this ledge to end where the lower shelf makes the turn astern and it should look v.good once done.
Even considering using two 6mm ply sheets for this cover and curving it ever so slightly to follow the top of the slanted piece of ply and make sure no water stays up there ;)

Overally v.happy today!


V.

rbcoomer
24-11-12, 13:30
Hi Vas,

I have to say that I was thinking along the same lines as Alf on the throttles. Whilst I like the symmetry of one each side, just how practical is that as it means you'd need both hands on the throttles when maneuvering? Often, one would probably suffice, keeping one free for other tasks (Holding your beer etc :D)

Perhaps throttles to s'bd and Garmin to port in a sloping 'pod' on the basis that when maneuvering, you're probably close quarters and not in need of the nav etc?

I do like the steering box much 'as is', not so sure about introducing too many angles/shapes by tapering off at the back... Sorry! :o

Very impressed with the progress however - it's coming together very well and your maiden voyage will be before I get even my floor in at this rate! :)

Regards,

Robin

rbcoomer
24-11-12, 13:35
Ah, understand the throttle reasoning a little better now - posts obviously crossed over!

Yes, I like that better too... Have you decided on position for the Garmin then?

FARSCO
24-11-12, 16:09
http://imagenes.cosasdebarcos.com/barcosOcasion/0/6/4/4/chaparral-eeuu-chaparral-usa-villain-iv-300-38610030062855556965654853524556x.jpg

Hi vas. Hope you don't mind me chipping in. This is a dash from a 80's chapperal villain IV. When I saw your steering column it reminded me of this dash. I think it looks quite well and the lower panels either side are angled up for gauges etc...

This is not a great picture but there are more online. Just a thought :)

vas
26-11-12, 21:58
thanks Farsco for the photo, didn't know of it... Looks v.interesting!

I wasn't extremely happy with the last version of the f/b helm, so over the w/e I was sketching a possible v3.
Today I spend a couple of hours in the morning and with a few more scrap pieces of ply I knocked this version up. It's basically identical to v.2 but the central pod sort of thing is 30mm wider on the steering wheel end and 10mm higher. And, it has a cover tha once removed and stored under the cabinet it reveals the GPS, A/P controls and possibly windlass, horn, navlights buttons. Other than some constructional issues I have and hopefully solve, I'm happier with this.

chopping and testing using the old pieces:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_34.jpg

cutting the new topcover:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_35.jpg

the v3 Stealth version now looks like that (the bit of ply coming up to the top by the wheel will be trimmed flush with the side panels:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_36.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_37.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_38.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_39.jpg

and testing visibility whilst sitting:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_40.jpg

and standing:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_41.jpg

Yes I know that I need to lean to access it, but having played with the interface I'm not particularly keen on adding waypoints on this, so most of the work will be done in the PC and I'll be transfering waypoints and routes via SD, so not too bothered.

Considering a lock in the cover so that I can "safely" leave the garmin there. Further by removing the garmin I get access to the internals and through them to the wiring for the indicators/rev.counter for the engines.

V.

rbcoomer
26-11-12, 22:43
Hi Vas,

That looks quite practical and probably optimal location for the plotter. Out of interest, will the panel above the steering hinge up or slide out? You will need to do one or the other to check the reservoir I guess?

Am I right in thinking you don't want to go any higher? You seem to be trying to lower the chartplotter rather than raise the compass - probably for good reason... ;) Isn't any water (rain spray etc) going to want to collect in the dip against the plotter?

Regards,

Robin

vas
26-11-12, 23:00
Hi Vas,

That looks quite practical and probably optimal location for the plotter. Out of interest, will the panel above the steering hinge up or slide out? You will need to do one or the other to check the reservoir I guess?

yes and yes :)
not sure if it's going to be sliding or hinge or what. Will decide once I get all the details and exact measurements. May just have two concealed screws at the bottom holding this panel ;)



Am I right in thinking you don't want to go any higher? You seem to be trying to lower the chartplotter rather than raise the compass - probably for good reason... ;) Isn't any water (rain spray etc) going to want to collect in the dip against the plotter?

Regards,

Robin
yep, right again :)
I'm reaching the top of the whole thing, the angle to the eye when seated cannot go any further imo...
There's going to be a 300mm approx high windscreen and that should be enough. I only managed to get some spray there on a F6-7ish N on the delivery trip and even that wasn't much. Rain, what rain?
Serious, I'll need to get the cover to seal properly with the sides and compass base. I'll probably use thin rubber strip from car windscreens or something like that in a routed groove so that when the cover is in place you wont be able to see the rubber and there wont be a chance of water coming in.
Of course there's going to be drain or two taking an water down to the f/b floor. I need a lot of time to think and get the details right on this lot.
As long as I decide on the overall shape and size and fix the unmoveable bits, I'll be okay for painting and sealing.

V.

rafiki_
26-11-12, 23:37
Vas, does your Garmin have a built-in aerial? If yes, will your installation impact on the signal? On mine, it works through the glass screen.

jfm
27-11-12, 00:29
V3.0 gets my vote. I like the garmin set down in the Vee slot very much.

vas
27-11-12, 21:56
Vas, does your Garmin have a built-in aerial? If yes, will your installation impact on the signal? On mine, it works through the glass screen.
yes built-in aerial.
Installation (when in use that is) should be absolutely fine as there's only the sky on top of it, err and a bit of plastimo compass slightly ahead. Nah, should be fine, I've been testing the garmin in the car :rolleyes: and even under the metal roof it's absolutely fine as is my smartphones gps...


V3.0 gets my vote. I like the garmin set down in the Vee slot very much.
thanks v.much jfm, I really appreciate your opinion ;)


now, tried and setup properly the 20x20mm pieces that placehold the whole pod.
Quite happy as it develops, garmin sits in a slope exactly the same as the one the gauges will be secured just 110mm in front.
As robin noticed, I'm trying v.hard to keep the whole construction low.
v.3 was slightly higher (around 20mm) trying to sort out the vee slot part over the steering pump and copper pipes. Since it doesnt quite cut it and I'll need a flat part towards the steering (god it's hard describing a few pics help much more...) I'll lower v3.1 (which is going to be the final hopefully) as much down as it can so that the steering wheel axle is going to be more central to the panel. Note how inbalanced the setup is currently (clear in the third pic...)

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_43.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_44.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_45.jpg


At one point today I thought of discarding the bow part of the pod, keeping only the part covering the steering pump and sticking the compass on top of it, putting everything else on the slanted panel where the gauges will go, but decided that ergonomically it would be carp and designwise not that interesting either, so scrapped v.4 immediatelly. Just to get an idea, that's the actual stuff inside the pod:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_42.jpg

Cut two holes in the slanted panel and routed the stbrd engine control connector in place convenient for connection and testing. That was a straightforward job EXCEPT that the idiots who setup the wiring used a 14wire thing where ALL the bleeding wires were BLACK ffs. Since the connector is too bulky and I didn't want to drill a massive hole in there, I had to disconnect the 10cables one by one (the 4 were not used go figure...) go up the f/b reconnect, then down again for the next one, etc (as you can imagine I was working alone again!)

Anyway, setup looks good, to an extend sorted (in my mind) the way the movable bits are going to work, how I'm going to waterproof the whole pod etc.
Finished the day with another coat of penetrating epoxy to the whole dash/shelf area and tomorrow I'm cutting the fix bits of ply for the pod, glueing/bolting them down and epoxy coating them.
A few showers expected on Thu then another 5 days of 12-18C and bits of sun, so will have a go at replacing the aft deck before the winter sets in and the aft deck is impossible to work on (facing N and that's the direction of the seriously cold winds bringing low temps from the snowclad Pelion...)

cheers

V.

Divemaster1
27-11-12, 23:26
Vas,

Now it starts to look neat .... consider dropping the side panels between the two elements ... so you have a open V shape between the steering pump and the Garmin ... keep the compass above the plotter... open V shape between the two elements will make water drainage a non-issue..

jfm
28-11-12, 00:13
Vas
I know it's hard sitting where you're sitting having to filter all the advice, and easy here to chuck in armchair suggestions, so feel free to ignore this one - it's each to their own. But I just wonder about your overall fly dash philosophy. Do you have an iso sketch of the whole thing that you can post, showing especially the seats?

I reckon you need a helmsman's chair and a navigators chair, else it is lonely being the boat owner. You need somewhere for the kids to sit next to you in nice weather, and in carp weather you want to read the screens while someone else looks out for trouble and holds the helm.

Just my personal philosophy of course, but this is why I've always gone to such trouble with my dashboards - both the below follow this thinking - I sit in front of the screens at night/fog/trouble and run the screens, and a less able crew person/child can operate the helm. The other side effect is that this approach makes it easy to bring the screens close to the operator, no leaning forward, which is handy when you are working the screens a lot

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj304/jfm2008/new%20Sq58/IMG_0841.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj304/jfm2008/UWL/Squadron78/IMG_2185.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj304/jfm2008/2013%20Squadron%2078%20new%20build/s78-92upperdashFINAL.jpg

So, sorry to rabbit on and not wishing to rain on any parade, but before you go final on this design are you sure you don't want to stretch it out sideways and have 2 chairs, and side-positioned screens?

rbcoomer
28-11-12, 08:01
Vas,

Now it starts to look neat .... consider dropping the side panels between the two elements ... so you have a open V shape between the steering pump and the Garmin ... keep the compass above the plotter... open V shape between the two elements will make water drainage a non-issue..

I thought the same to start with, but then wondered if Vas left the sides in-situ to support a protective 'lid' when not in use (helming below etc)? Whilst a lid could of course incorporate the side sections, it would make it awkward to stow. It's quite a difficult shape to have a sliding lid too... :)

vas
28-11-12, 20:32
Robin, you're once more spot on :D

Alf, it would be rather complicated tbh and I'm afraid the constructional details in 12mm ply would be cr4p....

JFM, no worries, just fire up all ideas: some of them are picked up, others filtered in and very few ignored ;)

Now, I think I better try to explain my thinking behind operating MiToS with the family.

First, its going to be used a lot in anchorages, v.v.rarely in marinas and I recon for a series of reasons 70-80% of the distance covered will be in flat seas and displacement speeds.
Son is getting v.easily motion sick on anything! even bleeding car lately (wasn't like that when he was up to 7yo, it's a new thing that puzzles me). As a result I want to be v.careful on where/how I travel as I dont want to loose him.
Daughter is the structured/technical minded one (at least I got one of the two kids right ;) ) and I'm not going to discuss the wife on this respect...

So I'll be mostly on the f/b with the two kids.
Haven't got a decent plan of the f/b and the overal layout, it's in some shabby sketches somewhere in a folder. I will do a plan at some point during the winter and would like your views. There will be a reasonably comfy bench that will fit us three from centre to stbrd. This bench/sofa will be turning astern at the stbrd end creating an L shaped sofa (with a twist), with a fixed (maybe?) table in front.
The "twist" is that the backrest of the 3seater facing fwrd, will be reversible so when at anchor it will move to the other side, creating a proper L sofa for socialising/sitting around the table/etc. Haven't seen it anywhere else, but seems v. reasonable thing to do at the size of my f/b.

I think I did mention that I want to work on a fairly tight budget for now and add things later. Considering that your 2X15+ inch screens on your beautifully and ergonomically designed helm cost half the value of MiToS rebuilt (ffs, I paid for MiToS the amount that the grp mold/production f/b helm cost on M1!) I've decided that the Garmin GPSMAP 520 is perfect for the pod, hidden there for the helmsman and the kids could be checking routes, bouys, etc in one of the net/notebooks on board. My decommissioned Asus901 connected with the 20USD USB2NMEA cable can have all the bus data (GPS, AIS, etc) integrated in OpenCPN and they can enjoy the route and fooling around with screens (and all that for 20USD :D ). Here the wide shelf and my extension will come in v.handy.
There's going to be a VIMAR IP67(I think) socket under the shelf with a custom plug for the USD2NMEA and obviously 220V from the inverter to keep the notebooks running ;)

Further, the longest distance between islands I'll ever have to cross will be 50nm when crossing to Lesvos and Turkey, everywhere else there's an island every 5-10-15max nm. So planning is going to be fairly easy and if the going gets tough the tough find an isle and hide for a week or two :rolleyes: ('cause if the tough get going, he'll be going alone the next year if you get my drift ;)

Concluding, the social space in the f/b design as well as the helming is I think covered (at least conceptually) in a slightly unconventional method for typical N.Europe boating. Don't forget that I'll be using MiToS from June/July till Oct at best, so the August meltemi is what I'll be dealing with.

Back in track v3.2 is implemented to almost 50% :)

12mm ply, v.happy with the fitting, took me 5h though as I first had to chop the v3 to as low as it would go THEN mark the new ply, cut, mate surfaces, etc.
Almost managed to get the steering shaft to the centre of the pod and looks much better now. Garmin is a reasonable fit with enough space for a set of toggles for windlass, a/p and maybe even trim tabs in there.

the two holes I cut in order to have access and be able to connect all the wiring:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_46.jpg

sides done:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_47.jpg

almost plan view:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_48.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_49.jpg


George also came and finished the last patch on the f/b deck. The whole width for around 200mm was removed (needed no less than 5patches due to bolts working loose/filling with rainwater/rotting, y'now normal stuff...) One part of the frame was replaced with a new piece of iroko, shaped in place (twin curvature :eek: ) and now all done and ready for epoxying.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_deck_18.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_deck_19.jpg

Also had my first almost proper accident, cut a deep 12mm groove in my right thumb, sheer stupidity/negligence. H&S would be impressed to see me working a small angle grinder without the protective shield and with a 180mm dia inox cutting disk :rolleyes:
Anyway, nothing that clear 95% alcohol, a napkin and a bit of insulation tape (white to match the napkin..) wont solve.

Plan is to get cracking on the aft deck (I know I've said that a few times before but more interesting things to do...) replace the lot and then cover up the whole boat with the 8x14m 190gr/sqm tarpaulin and start working inside.

cheers

V.

rafiki_
28-11-12, 20:46
Interesting stuff Vas. Getting the right spec for the family is very important, unless you want to be a solo boater. You do have a wonderful cruising area though, so ther will always be something new for your children to see.

F/bridge dash coming on nicely.

BartW
29-11-12, 16:06
The "twist" is that the backrest of the 3seater facing fwrd, will be reversible so when at anchor it will move to the other side, creating a proper L sofa for socialising/sitting around the table/etc. Haven't seen it anywhere else, but seems v. reasonable thing to do at the size of my f/b.


On Blue Angel, I have sort of a similar twist on my fb helm seat,
in the left bottom corner of the pic,
might give some inspiration, (sorry its the only pic I have from this)

http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq162/Bartwillems/P1070679edit.jpg

when the backrest is in its forward position, I can lean on it with my arse, when helming while standing.
Or you can sit on the bench looking to rear.

I have been thinking to move this bench to port, and fix 2 x recaro seats on that position, but actually I'm quite happy with the bench for now. can sit or lie on it in many weird positions ;-)

then another interesting item is the fb table,
in the picture, its in the folded position, (for drinks during normal day use)
when you turn the top 45 clockwise, 4 x support beams appear,(these remain in diagonal fixed position) and you can fold open these triangle segments which are on top of the square middle panel
the triangle segments then rest on the beams
then you have a big table for dinner with 8+ ppl
difficult to explain. need a scetch ?

vas
30-11-12, 21:14
Interesting stuff Vas. Getting the right spec for the family is very important, unless you want to be a solo boater. You do have a wonderful cruising area though, so ther will always be something new for your children to see.

F/bridge dash coming on nicely.
thanks raf, I always have this problem of imagining the needs of the family on whatever I design... After 10yrs with the kids, I can work their needs out, but even 23yrs with wife are not enough to understand her, I guess that's normal :rolleyes:


On Blue Angel, I have sort of a similar twist on my fb helm seat,
in the left bottom corner of the pic,
might give some inspiration, (sorry its the only pic I have from this)

http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq162/Bartwillems/P1070679edit.jpg

when the backrest is in its forward position, I can lean on it with my arse, when helming while standing.
Or you can sit on the bench looking to rear.


aha!
I'll buy that! it's simpler than my rather elaborate and difficult to switch from helming to socialising version. Actually it's genius, thanks a lot!



then another interesting item is the fb table,
in the picture, its in the folded position, (for drinks during normal day use)
when you turn the top 45 clockwise, 4 x support beams appear,(these remain in diagonal fixed position) and you can fold open these triangle segments which are on top of the square middle panel
the triangle segments then rest on the beams
then you have a big table for dinner with 8+ ppl
difficult to explain. need a scetch ?

yeah! you completely lost me there Bart!
However, I'm on 43ft and the f/b is 2.5m wide only so no space for dinner table for 8 I'm afraid. Just a corner sofa for 4-5ppl or one lying on each side :D

Short update,
Following this nasty cut in my finger, I only did a bit of cleaning yesterday and managed to get the aft deck from this ugly mess:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/aftdeck_rebuilt_1.jpg
to this:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/aftdeck_rebuilt_2.jpg

:D

Today I spend the full day under glorious sunshine and warm weather reaching 20C on the f/b. Half the time was swearing trying to dismantle the fcking f/b railings, using wd40, heat, impact drivers, more heat and eventually a cobalt 3mm drill bit and a plain old 5mm afterwards :rolleyes:
Ralings are all alloy, all stanchions are featuring at least 4-5 unwanted holes in them that need welding, filling, sanding and unfortunately anodizing at the end of it all :(
Main railing is shabby and should be polished and restored somehow... Seriously tempted to replace the lot with ss but it wont be easy, we shall see...
Or if someone has an idea of a good v.sticky paint for alluminium just shout!

Took me 3h with 40 and 60grit on the 150mm orbital sander and a small trianglural 93mm sander to fully prepare the f/b deck and shelf for painting. Weather tomorrow is going to be nice and warm, so I'll do the epoxy with paint tomorrow morning. Pics to come on the colour coding
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_50.jpg

On a lighter note, I was unpleasanly surprised when I used a few bits of delam ply I brought home from MiToS to light the fireplace a few days ago; they went up in flames in secs :(
Good for the fireplace though :rolleyes:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/MiToS_on_fireplace.jpg

cheers

V.

rafiki_
30-11-12, 22:18
Nice to see the Mitos recycling plan working well. I don't think there will be a paint finish for your alu rails that will look good, unfortunately. I know you have covered this before but is there a chemical dip that will clean and finish the alu?

EME
01-12-12, 14:21
.. but this is beginning to take shape and doing my head in as to how you 'saw' her.

We have some special aluminium coatings done in Germany . I suspect you will hate them on basis of cost but delighted to give you the references!

vas
02-12-12, 18:28
Nice to see the Mitos recycling plan working well. I don't think there will be a paint finish for your alu rails that will look good, unfortunately. I know you have covered this before but is there a chemical dip that will clean and finish the alu?
:D
that's a small scale recycling plan raf, when I did my house I had over a ton of chestnut beams to burn in the fireplace, took me 3yrs!
There is a chemical dip, BUT spend some time today trying to sand a few of them supports and the results are not good.
For some odd reason PO has beaten the hell out of these supports, dunno what he was up to but they have lots of dinks, grooves, you name it.
Now, since they were originally anodised and then he primed them (with the carmin thing) and then brush painted silver again all dinks show once you sand them.
Went ahead with the 150mm dia orbital sander I'm using for all flat surfaces and with a 120grit paper and here's what it looks like after 5mins on each:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/railingsupport_1.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/railingsupport_2.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/railingsupport_3.jpg


I can obviously try a 60grit to "cut" all or anyway most of the marks off and then finish off with a 180 or so, but I need to find what I'm going to do afterwards!
BTW, tomorrow these are going to the machine shop to weld 5-6 holes on each one and fill the base that's badly pitted on a few. Originally the stanchion was supported with 3 6mm hex screws (120degrees apart) When they failed, PO did various tricks in mixed order:

drilled 3mm holes on the top (two on each) and bolted a ss countersunk on each side :eek:
overdrilled the bottom holes and fitted M10 bolts with massive allen heads (that I cannot remove :( )
tightened it down with wires???

So now I have to fill/weld the M10s so that I can redrill and fit M8s all around. Have only managed to do 5 of them already and have them currently on MiToS to support the railings.
Slight catch is that the weld comes proud of the area and I have to file and then sand it down to a smoothish finish. That'll take some time.

Next pic shows a perfect bottom on the left and a badly pitted on the right. Unfortunately the rare one is the one on the left :(

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/railingsupport_4.jpg



.. but this is beginning to take shape and doing my head in as to how you 'saw' her.

We have some special aluminium coatings done in Germany . I suspect you will hate them on basis of cost but delighted to give you the references!

EME thanks for the kind words, don't forget I'm a designer and I get to feel and imagine something way before getting it down to paper/drawing and doing it...
However I early on realised that designing is too important to do it for money so turned into teaching :D
I just need my design fix often and I rarely find someone to do things the way I want them hence I'm diying mostly (that's the typical excuse for the wife, but it's true ton an extent!)

re aluminium coatings, I need to keep my options open, so please do sent any info!

At the moment I have:
plywood deck and teak on top in June
aluminium stanchion supports
secured with M8 SS bolts and bronze nuts
In these supports come 33mm external dia (and 3.2mm thick) aluminium stanchions
secured with now M8 ss headless jobbies (sorry cannot search back right now for the proper term that JFM gave me :o )

All this has aged reasonably well considering its 37+yo

One solution would be to scrap the lot and do it in ss
not happy as I quite like the original setup!

Another option is to find new pipe and redo bits (mainly the f/b stanchions that are excessively drilled and damaged.

HOWEVER, I need to get a finish to that lot :(

The stanchion supports are small enough to send them for anodising again with a reasonable cost.
The rest is I think splash painted somehow very thinlly/badly. Got to try with wirewool or polishing compound and see what happens.
The stanchions are 600-700mm high
The actual railing is in 4m long pieces :eek:

Concluding, no mater what I do with the small bts of the stanchion supports I need to clean/polish/coat/whatever the railings and stanchions.

So, any ideas welcomed!

cheers

V.

FARSCO
02-12-12, 22:10
Have you considered sanding and polishing them on a buffing wheel. I did quite a few aluminum bits on a few bikes over the years. Obviously they weren't as bad as yours to start with but came up to a mirror finish in minutes.

Would take you a while that's for sure but you certainly have patience :):):)

vas
02-12-12, 22:40
Have you considered sanding and polishing them on a buffing wheel. I did quite a few aluminum bits on a few bikes over the years. Obviously they weren't as bad as yours to start with but came up to a mirror finish in minutes.

Would take you a while that's for sure but you certainly have patience :):):)

yes I have but I understand that whatever buffing, they'll come nice and shinny for a few weeks but by Sept they'll be dull and need extra buffing, no?
I mean you cannot just leave untreated un anodized aluminium like that and expect it to work in this harsh environment?
Did you laquer or do something as a top finish to your bike bits?
and most importantly did you destroy the anodizing by the polishing?

Yes, I can be patient especially if I know it's going to work ;)

BTW, haven't had much luck with 32mm OD aluminium with 3mm walls (only getting 2mm which is going to be too thin) found locally a 33mm with 6mm wall though :eek:

V.

rafiki_
02-12-12, 22:47
Vas, could you pop the bases into a lathe and see if you can turn a new finish? You could then re anodise with no lumps or bumps?

vas
02-12-12, 22:51
Vas, could you pop the bases into a lathe and see if you can turn a new finish? You could then re anodise with no lumps or bumps?

thought of that but it's going to be a pig of a job to align them properly on a lathe as the cone is assymetrical and checking them carefully I *think* there's a port and stbrd side to them as well :eek:
Will investigate further once I clean a few more and see, but I think I'd rather do the 60grit to 180 in passes and then anodizing unless EME's suggestion works out better/cheaper.

V.

rafiki_
02-12-12, 22:55
thought of that but it's going to be a pig of a job to align them properly on a lathe as the cone is assymetrical and checking them carefully I *think* there's a port and stbrd side to them as well :eek:
Will investigate further once I clean a few more and see, but I think I'd rather do the 60grit to 180 in passes and then anodizing unless EME's suggestion works out better/cheaper.

V.

It will be really hard to do this by hand. Good luck;)

CobraYellowfin
03-12-12, 01:23
Vas
Is it possible to powder coat?
I'm not sure, but would have thought it possible on alloy

That way you can pick whatever color you like for the bases and rails
(Surprisingly the silver powder coat I've seen looks quite good)

Just a thought


Andy

FARSCO
03-12-12, 06:52
yes I have but I understand that whatever buffing, they'll come nice and shinny for a few weeks but by Sept they'll be dull and need extra buffing, no?
I mean you cannot just leave untreated un anodized aluminium like that and expect it to work in this harsh environment?
Did you laquer or do something as a top finish to your bike bits?
and most importantly did you destroy the anodizing by the polishing?

Yes, I can be patient especially if I know it's going to work ;)

BTW, haven't had much luck with 32mm OD aluminium with 3mm walls (only getting 2mm which is going to be too thin) found locally a 33mm with 6mm wall though :eek:

V.

Hi Vas

I polished up the pieces, wiped down with acetone and dried, then sprayed with 3 -4 coats Alloy Wheel Clear coat(VHT I think). Stood up well to the abuse especially the heal guards on the rearsets that get rubbed against a lot.

It would be lots of work though :rolleyes:

vas
03-12-12, 22:43
thanks for the input,

discussed again with the guy that did the chrome plating for my interior light fixtures and I trust his opinion.
He believes (and it does make sense) that unless you go for anodizing, whatever else you do (powder coating, spraying etc) will be OK up to the point it is stressed and the coating flakes off the alloy.
I'm talking about the stanchion supports, so there flaking can happen on the threads where the M8s fit and most importantly on the top rim where the stanchions fit (and occasionally move/rub against it) :(

Considering the relatively small size of them, I'll most likely anodize them (waiting for EME's option and looking for liquid metal applications for the dinks, grooves, etc).
The rest (i.e. the pipework) will be initially polished and see how they look.
Took the first 5 supports for welding/filling of holes today, will report tomorrow when I get them back and redrill and sand them.


A bit of progress with the annoying weather we had last couple of days. Managed to get the first coat on the f/b helm area:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_51.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_52.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_53.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_helm_54.jpg

The option of:
5%black for the light grey,
30%black for the dark grey and
80%black for the "black"

is not quite right as 30 and 80 are surprisingly close :eek:
To get an idea, from the f/b deck up to the "shelf" it's 30%black. The slanted part where the gauges fit and the pod with the steering are 80% black.
Er, definitely doesn't look like. Mind the 80%black was still wet when I took the photos, the 30% was two days old. The dark patches on the lower part are simply wet thick epoxy with some 80%black dye on it...
Anyway, not to worry as it's just testing with epoxy colours, did some filling of screw heads/dinks/etc and depending on rain and cold I may manage to sand and get another coat before covering up for the winter.

Excuse the lousy detailing but I only had a small roller and no brush :rolleyes:
Mind it does look v.good in the photos, not so in real life, but I've not actually done any proper filling, just the very rough bits, so not complaining.

cheers

V.

rbcoomer
04-12-12, 07:45
Hi Vas,

That's quite a transformation - amazing what a bit of 'paint' will do! :D

I'm not actually surprised that 30% & 80% are close as surely the base is neutral - in effect colourless? I think you are increasing the particle density (and thus coverage) but not the tone/colour... Did you try adding white pigment? I'd have though that 5% black + 5% white would be very similar to 40% black + 40% white, but the latter would improve coverage? Thus for the 'black', use 80% black, but for the grey perhaps 60% black & 20% white?

Don't take my word for it however as I'm no resin expert! Perhaps a test somewhere... :rolleyes:

Best regards,

Robin

vas
04-12-12, 10:44
Hi Vas,

That's quite a transformation - amazing what a bit of 'paint' will do! :D

I'm not actually surprised that 30% & 80% are close as surely the base is neutral - in effect colourless? I think you are increasing the particle density (and thus coverage) but not the tone/colour... Did you try adding white pigment? I'd have though that 5% black + 5% white would be very similar to 40% black + 40% white, but the latter would improve coverage? Thus for the 'black', use 80% black, but for the grey perhaps 60% black & 20% white?

Don't take my word for it however as I'm no resin expert! Perhaps a test somewhere... :rolleyes:

Best regards,

Robin
indeed a great transformation ;)

I realised that the way I described my colour mixings is confusing, so will have another go :D

Right, I use on these coats 40%pigment 60% epoxy. That's approximate ratio after various tests to get decent coverage. Don't forget these coats are more or less filler coats -either sealing small hairline blemishes or generally showing where filler is needed (cannot do that on clear epoxy!) hence the darker patches on the 30%grey that shows in the pics above (filler using the darker pigment as that was available yesterday :rolleyes: )

The pigment is mixed separately and when I'm saying 30% black I mean for every 100mg of WHITE base I mix with 30mg of BLACK and 5% means 100mg white - 5mg black.

tbh I don't dislike the two dark greys it's just I'd really like a bit more of a difference but again that can be done with different types of finish, brilliant vs gloss etc. We shall see, got to see also what the wife thinks of it (always threatens she's going to come and visit but never manages...)

cheers

V.

jfm
04-12-12, 21:17
Imho Vas the greys you are mixing are too dark. Seems to me you need to be in the 3-20% black range to get lighter grey and then some areas of darker grey. I'd expect there is quite a differnce between say 3% and 6%

It's not much of an analogy in terms of paint chemistry but I've recently ordered some mosaic tiles in mixed blacks and greys then had to specify a % of bright silver tiles to create a speckled effect. I was expecting a number like 10-15% silver tiles but no way. The sensible choices were 1,2,or 3% and all three of those looked different. I ended up speccing the 1%

Anyway, we're all sitting in our comfy armchairs enjoying your boat building and I gotta say I really can't wait to see her fully painted :D

Later on, when you get to exterior upholstery, I can help you with silvers and greys if that's what you choose. I have samples here of just about every grey and silver vinyl, movida and sunbrella here and I've made all the selectiosn for Match 2 so I'll happily post the whole lot in a parcel to Volos when you're ready :)

petem
05-12-12, 22:10
It's not much of an analogy in terms of paint chemistry but I've recently ordered some mosaic tiles in mixed blacks and greys then had to specify a % of bright silver tiles to create a speckled effect. I was expecting a number like 10-15% silver tiles but no way. The sensible choices were 1,2,or 3% and all three of those looked different. I ended up speccing the 1%

Crikey that was tough decision I imagine!


Anyway, we're all sitting in our comfy armchairs enjoying your boat building and I gotta say I really can't wait to see her fully painted :D

You're not going to let me live that one down are you!

jfm
05-12-12, 23:07
You're not going to let me live that one down are you!
Oh no Petem! It hurt me to my very core! :D Since that exchange I have had a major rush on and prepared 20+ detailed drawings for deck furniture manufacture and such like. I've a would post them if I had time. Factory visit tomorrow

petem
06-12-12, 06:32
Oh no Petem! It hurt me to my very core! :D Since that exchange I have had a major rush on and prepared 20+ detailed drawings for deck furniture manufacture and such like. I've a would post them if I had time. Factory visit tomorrow

Excellent, keep finding the time! We love all the detail and it's really cool havin projects from you and Vas (no offence) at with end of he spectrum.

Vas, just like JFM's project yours is starting to look like a boat. Keep going!

burgundyben
06-12-12, 08:35
I know I have harped on about this before, you need to get those window frames out and get the epoxy right up over the edge of the ply and into the inside.

Unless you are painting it black? Why the Grey? It'll be a mare to cover with white?

jfm
07-12-12, 16:58
I know I have harped on about this before, you need to get those window frames out and get the epoxy right up over the edge of the ply and into the inside.
BB, I think Vas has done this and followed your advice 100%

vas
10-12-12, 21:20
Imho Vas the greys you are mixing are too dark. Seems to me you need to be in the 3-20% black range to get lighter grey and then some areas of darker grey. I'd expect there is quite a differnce between say 3% and 6%

yep, seems that the scale is logarithmic and not linear.

Next attempts will be
3
10-12
80

;)


Later on, when you get to exterior upholstery, I can help you with silvers and greys if that's what you choose. I have samples here of just about every grey and silver vinyl, movida and sunbrella here and I've made all the selectiosn for Match 2 so I'll happily post the whole lot in a parcel to Volos when you're ready :)

Thanks JFM!
Looking forward to the day i'll be too busy choosing textiles :D


I know I have harped on about this before, you need to get those window frames out and get the epoxy right up over the edge of the ply and into the inside.

Unless you are painting it black? Why the Grey? It'll be a mare to cover with white?
BB,

JFM is right, I'm following your advice fully ;)
I've already removed the two saloon windows, repaired and replaced parts of ply around the edges, epoxied the lot (a couple of coats of CPES) and temporarily put the frames back in place.
Once I cover up the whole boat, I'll remove the rest of the windows, repair ply, epoxy and refit. May actually do all the epoxy coats and the two pack polyurethene painting and cutting now on them and fit the windows properly with new seals.

And yes, the lower helm windows originally had black surrounding, I'll do the same, hence the dark epoxy ;)

Only problem I have regarding the windows is finding new seal, posted the section (I think at least) a couple of weeks ago and found a company that for 200euro can create a mold for me to construct new seals. Not that cheap but may have to resort to this. Original seals are a no-no after almost 40yrs...


And a bit of progress although we are unfortunately now down to winter (with a chilly NW wind aligned to the aft deck) and temps down to 2-9C

Took the stanchion supports to the welder and after an hour or so with a file and 80grit paper I sort of smoothed ONE of the 40 odd welds. Took it in Athens to the guy that did all my chrome plating, but he immediately stopped me. He argues (v.reasonably) that no matter what you do, tig welding will leave small heat/gas related imperfections at the borders of new/old material. That means that no matter what I do, I wont be able to get a smooth finish non porous and good enough for anodizing.
So anodizing out of the question and according to him only decent option is powder coating. It comes with the danger of paint flaking where the stanchion enters the conical support, but not much one can do about that...

Looking forward to hearing EMEs magic chemical and was also thinking of ordering a small portion of epoxy liquid aluminium to try filling the tiny holes. We shall see.


http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/railingsupport_5.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/railingsupport_6.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/railingsupport_7.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/railingsupport_8.jpg


Ah, and by the way, MiToS is now a full year on the hard (was lifted first week of Dec 2011), definitely don't want to be posting in this thread same day next year without having spent sometime in the summer in the water!

cheers

V.

petem
10-12-12, 22:16
Vas, I worry about the time you're taking on the Stanchion bases. I understand you're on a budget and want to keep the boat as original as possible.

If there the end result of refurbishing them was going to be perfect it might be worth the effort. It doesn't even seem like they are that well designed. Wouldn't it be better replacing them with some nice new ones and use the time saved to move the rest of the project on?

Sorry, if this sounds negative - it's not meant to be.

Pete

rafiki_
11-12-12, 08:28
Vas, I worry about the time you're taking on the Stanchion bases. I understand you're on a budget and want to keep the boat as original as possible.

If there the end result of refurbishing them was going to be perfect it might be worth the effort. It doesn't even seem like they are that well designed. Wouldn't it be better replacing them with some nice new ones and use the time saved to move the rest of the project on?

Sorry, if this sounds negative - it's not meant to be.

Pete

Pete, I tend to agree on this. Huge mission to get the old stanchion bases perfect. Do they need to be perfect? If yes, buy new ones. I think this will be cheaper.

BartW
11-12-12, 08:46
Pete, I tend to agree on this. Huge mission to get the old stanchion bases perfoect. Do they need to be perfect? If yes, buy new ones. I think this will be cheaper.

+1
and more flexibility in choosing the right fit for your app.

new ss stanchions and fittings and railing, will give the boat a totally "new" look

vas
11-12-12, 10:54
hm, I could possibly agree with the three of you gents, BUT,


I really like these conical stanchion supports!
I find them exceptionally clever
I like the fact that with the three headless_whatever_JFM_called_them_screws I can regulate and tilt/roll/pan (ok, not quite :D) the whole railing and get it properly aligned.

+

I've only spent 60euro on the whole stanchion rebuilt and 5h and that's mainly checking options and thinking/testing methods
A new whole set of stanchions/railings in ss for MiToS would be close to 3K I'm told and no way I'm spending that right now


Once I test clean/polish the actual stanchions and a bit of railing and establish how much effort is needed and aproximate result quality I'll be able to judge.

Mind have only spent 2h on MiToS over the last 6 days and another 2h at home working on the supports ;)

Bleeding freezing cold out there, waiting for Southerly winds :(

cheers

V.

vas
19-12-12, 18:50
not much happened over the last week due to the lovely weather, not! and me having an awful lot of real work to deal with :(

Two things to report before I dash off to Athens for a couple of days:

all railings back in place, not all stanchions in place yet. All f/b ones will be on Monday as I failled miserably in removing the M8 bolts out of the alloy supports, all bar one were solid as a rock and no matter how much hammering/wd40/heating I treated them with, wouldn't release. So off to the machinist to be redrilled on the lathe ;)

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_deck_20.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_deck_21.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_deck_22.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fb_deck_23.jpg

you can also see the repairs on the f/b deck all complete, just need a bit more sanding, a few more coats of epoxy and then the final layer of teak in June...

George did the edging of the superstructure over the deck which was carp and on the port side was done using insets of teak on the stbrd side decided to go for the "proper" job of making shapes as needed to fit the gaps and fill them with epoxy. Took me on Wed something like 2.5h to sand (40-60grit) the sundeck ending to the deck down to a reasonable finish (you can see that better on the last pic in this post).

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/helm_ply_repairs_44.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/helm_ply_repairs_45.jpg

Cut and cleaned the port engine intake. Was a real mess with lots of glue stuck on rotted ply, screws all over the place, awful. Now down to clean/replaced ply waiting for an endplate to be fitted.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/helm_ply_repairs_46.jpg

This the salon outside wall on the port side, not sanded that yet. Winds are N, NW and that's where all the cold stuff come down, so bleeding freezing!
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/helm_ply_repairs_47.jpg

all bow railings are in. There's an issue with the modified by the PO bow roller mounted support for the central railing, probably has to be redone but will think about it. Also at the anchor light it's obvious that the railing is bent so need to straighten it somehow (a log across and a rope with a bloke on the ground pulling and another on the bow sitting on the stbrd frontmost railing seems to be the best idea up to now...)
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/helm_ply_repairs_48.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/helm_ply_repairs_49.jpg

the stbrd sundeck ending being prepared, note the triangular in section piece of ply in place.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/helm_ply_repairs_50.jpg

OK, got to leave, next update on xmass eve ;)

cheers

V.

Divemaster1
19-12-12, 21:41
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/helm_ply_repairs_49.jpg



Vas,

Looking at this picture, the only real difference between MiTos and Navigator bow railing setup is that our two forward stanchions are angled forwards and provide support further forwards than when they stand up straight like yours.... this in turn removes the need for the central support at the bow which you have....

Great progress by the way and great to see the proud craft transforming back to her former glory and getting the attention she deserves!!

Third mate
04-01-13, 20:56
Who said Vas could go on holiday ???

rafiki_
04-01-13, 21:06
Who said Vas could go on holiday ???

He says it is too cold for him to work, must be about 20c :)

vas
04-01-13, 22:34
Happy new year everyone!

you're just being jealous of our warm climates aren't you?
:p

temps are indeed low (2~5C), came back from a week in Istanbul yesterday late at night after an 10h drive and spent the day sorting out things at home.
Not much will be happening over the next week as I'm up to my neck with real work stuff and they're expecting snow over the w/e.

will be working outside stripping paint off the hull and inside cleaning hull, frames on the cabins testing integrity and preparing for reconstructing the whole lot.
Too cold to touch engines (planning to remove and clean all heat exchangers) so that is postponed for March :D

The 8X14m cover I fitted on the 27th survived some serious wind on the 29th (50-60kph W) and a 24+h downpour so I'm happy.

Just give me sometime to recover from the food and catch up with work and I'll start posting again ;)

cheers

V.

rafiki_
04-01-13, 23:17
Welcome back Vas. Popped over to Rafiki on the river today, but the Severn is now about 1 mile wide at Upton:eek:

vas
12-01-13, 18:36
hello,

first official day at work (only couple of hours though...)

weather was fantastic 14-15, sunshine all round, couldn't miss it!

spend sometime checking securing and retightening the tarpaulin which survived some 50kph gusts on the 29th and couple of days ago, so happy with it.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/undercover_1.jpg

then spend an hour scrapping antifoul, primer and various carp off the hull on port side, continuing on work I've done back in June (iirc) whilst chatting with next boat neighbour that came around to check how things are...
Don't expect much progress, it was mainly the warm up for the year ;)

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_1.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_2.jpg

I reckon I can do 1sqm per 2h, but we shall see. Chines are costing me lots of time :rolleyes:

Finally, a good thing running the same BMS @ home and boat is that following a major cockup i managed at home that fried one controller that's now back at the factory for repair, I removed one from MiToS and took it home for reprogramming and fitting there :D

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/fyes_1.jpg

Proper 3-4 day a week work should resume the week after following a truckload of deadlines I should meet over the next week or so :(
Awful thing this real paying money work at times :rolleyes:

cheers

V.

rafiki_
13-01-13, 11:03
Thanks for the update Vas. The a/f looks like another mission. Is this not a job for a rotary sander? I understand the toxicity of the dust, so how about a project for a couple of your students? :)

BartW
13-01-13, 11:34
You're a very brave man Vas,
and I'm sure that us who are desparetely waiting for updates and pictures,
motivate you for continuing this challenging project :)

best wishes to you !!!

vas
13-01-13, 11:38
Thanks for the update Vas. The a/f looks like another mission. Is this not a job for a rotary sander? I understand the toxicity of the dust, so how about a project for a couple of your students? :)

:D

nah, got to find students that really like me too much and I hate them immensely. Not easy to find either I think :rolleyes:

In the past I 've tried scrapping, just hurts the arms and progress is not blindly fast tbh...
Sanding OTOH with a 40grit 125mm scratch on on a small angle grinder was a disaster with me coughing and eyes hurting for a couple of days although I used secure safety googles and breathing mask. So never again! (and was only for an hour as well...)

so I see it as an exercise for the cervix syndrome I'm suffering a bit. A way to break away all salt deposits and work out the poor body after siting so many hours working in front of a screen ;) Maybe should design a scrapping helmet so the neck muscles do a bit more work :cool:

Weather is brilliant to day with glorious sunshine and 14C with no wind, but not gone to MiToS as I'm helping the preperations for sons 12th bday (I guess one of the last that wife and I will be participating, so trying to make the most out of it!)

cheers

V.

vas
13-01-13, 11:40
You're a very brave man Vas,
and I'm sure that us who are desparetely waiting for updates and pictures,
motivate you for continuing this challenging project :)

best wishes to you !!!

Bart, brave is a dangerous word as the typical connotation is stupid :D

I just enjoy a decent sized challenge.

Happy new boating year for all!

V.

rafiki_
13-01-13, 16:07
:D

nah, got to find students that really like me too much and I hate them immensely. Not easy to find either I think :rolleyes:

V.

I would have thought this job perfect for a pair of scrotes. ;)

vas
15-01-13, 07:15
update after yesterday's first proper day at work!

first of all nicely wrapped up bow:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/undercover_2.jpg

Started working my way along the port side (that's were most of the damage due to leaking deck was at the first chine (if you call the first change of hull skin direction for the top at around the waterline a chine...)

It seemed there was a bulge from whereabouts the second cabin was till halfway the forward cabin. 1800W heat gun and trusty stripper at hand and shock horror, they've done an "interesting" patching work where it seems they've removed 1-2layers of the delam ply and replaced it with new ply that sits proud of the existing one :rolleyes: nice one...

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_3.jpg


at some point the new patch sits 10mm proud.
:eek:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_4.jpg


Interestingly on the inside all looks fine (except for a series of ss screw pointy bits clearly visible and a point where two planks of timber have been slapped from the inside.
Well impressed, not.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_5.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_6.jpg


The following is the result after 6h, cleaned around 4m and all slowly getting the full view... I quite like this industrial archaeology work :D

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_7.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_8.jpg

At the end started stripping the lower hull areas from bow towards stern and hope that by the end of the week I'll be in a position to start removing the fugly patches and with the help of George start rebuilding.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_9.jpg

Iroko frames are solid, so this particular patch should be straight forward albeit time consuming. And yes I'll get the yard owner to help in choking up the whole side carefully before starting removing bits so that it doesn't go pear shaped (shouldn't really just to be more sure about it)

BTW, 6h@ MiToS + 5h teaching == knackered!
This morning when I woke up I felt like I've been repeatedly beaten up, everything hurt. Good thing is that neck is fine :D
So, two weeks off work, just eating and drinking is bad for a rebuilt project...


cheers

V.

rb_stretch
15-01-13, 07:39
Hats off to you.

I would have lost heart discovering something like that.

vas
15-01-13, 07:46
Hats off to you.

I would have lost heart discovering something like that.

I just hope that's the worse I'll come across... ;)

although coming to think of it, replacing all the decks wasn't trivial, wasn't underwater, but so what?
I had MiToS in the sea for 2 months following the delivery trip and the bilge pump was working for 30-40secs every quarter of an hour or so. I would see one of the leaks but I needed an arm half a metre longer and with two extra joints to reach it :rolleyes:

Mind you, not excavated that patch yet, probably day after tomorrow, will keep you posted :D

V.

vas
16-01-13, 17:22
quick update,

managed 3h today so it seems that the dodgy hull parts below the waterline can be done at a rate of 1sqm per 2h (give or take...)

Hoping that the stbrd side is cleaner so quicker.
This is a bit that went smoothly:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_10.jpg

but overall these white patches (that surprisingly coinside with the frames) are a pig to clean so I'll leave them to a scarpel and not a heat gun. Looks like they are all only 2-3mm deep which means that they removed the delam first ply sheet and filled it in with some sort of v.hard and strong filler!

So next photo shows a clean patch around 1.6mX1.2m done in 4h
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_11.jpg

Since I'm up to my neck with real work, looks like I'll employ a mix system (8-12 in the office and 12-4 at the boat) so wait for the day to heat up a bit and then work outside in the cold (15C today) ;)

cheers

V.

vas
19-01-13, 13:24
yet another update,

managed 7h in total yesterday and today, progress's good.
First chine almost fully stripped. Missing the final metre but it's a bit of a pig as the main pilar support the boat is there so not keen on doing it atm

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_11.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_12.jpg

spot the patches:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_13.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_14.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_15.jpg

Interesting to note that most damage (caused by rainwater coming in and staying at the first and then second chine internally) are between the first and second chine. That's where a massive badly done patch still lives (will be replaced altogether). In order not to spend too much time in vain, I'm not cleaning the to_be_removed areas (i.e. bad patches) just cleaning there borders...
Moved further down towards the keel and things are clean if a not a bit damp down there. Ply is solid, will leave everything to dry for a week or two before progressing with CPESing or whatever needs be.

Patching removal and repairing starts on Tuesday.

I got an email from a good friend whist working at the boatyard yesterday with pics from snowclad Bath, I thought I'll post some different ones from down here to cheer/p1ss you up/off :D

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/bow-sun.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/yard_Jan-sunclouds-snow.jpg

cheers

V.

rafiki_
19-01-13, 15:02
Thanks Vas, yes the view is a little different here today. My greatest concern is the weight of the snow on Rafiki's canopy. I have seen them collapse under this weight before. We are expecting more on Monday, so will have to find a bit of time to brush off the current covering. Temps forecast below zero for the next week:(.

I've seen fewer patches on a quilt than your poor boat :)

Keep up the posts please.

vas
23-01-13, 17:31
Thanks Vas, yes the view is a little different here today. My greatest concern is the weight of the snow on Rafiki's canopy. I have seen them collapse under this weight before. We are expecting more on Monday, so will have to find a bit of time to brush off the current covering. Temps forecast below zero for the next week:(.

I've seen fewer patches on a quilt than your poor boat :)

Keep up the posts please.

got any more snow up there raf?
Down here, weather is suspiciously good, 12-13C at night :eek: 16+ daytime, with lots of sun. CH hasn't kick on over the last two three days... I'm afraid some snow will come our way soon!

Back on the quilt project, ;)

cleared out of the white stuff (epoxy, or some two part glue thing...) a few patches towards the bow just to check condition of ply and depth and all patches are around 2mm deep. Effectively only the first ply delaminated and cut off, replaced by this white thing. Happy to leave it as is on the small ones, just use some epoxy mat and fill it in (obviously after the 5-6coats of CPES I'll get to it first...)
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_16.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_17.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_18.jpg


Also sanded a sqm of stripped hull to see how it looks, and it's fine and solid.
George started work today, removing the dodgy patch done just above the first chine and although at the begining it was okayish, he was later on shocked by the lack of workmanship. There's a point that they removed the delam ply, left the lower skin (that was well bonded to the frame) and slapped a thin piece of ply. but it was too thin so they slapped another one on top that stayed proud of the hull by 4-5mm. Nah, no probs, use some filler and feather it up to above the waterline :rolleyes:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_19.jpg

Here's the whole port side at it's current state:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_20.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_21.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_22.jpg



And now for something different :D

Looks like i'll be getting a telescopic passerelle, so got to get rid of the davits (that will enable me to cover up the stern properly so that I can soon replace the aft deck.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/davits_on.jpg

Am I right in thinking that I have to strip the inner skin of the transom in order to access the screws/bolts that hold them in place???
That's not a problem as I was going to remove them anyway, but I'm just wondering...

Davits are Whittall btw.

cheers

V.

rafiki_
23-01-13, 19:06
Still wintery here Vas, blizzard earlier, and temp down to -9 c overnight. Great:(. You have some substantial davvits there. How big was the tender? 30 footer? You will have to look at the ballast when you get rid of that much tin.

Good luck with the quilt. Looking good.

rafiki_
23-01-13, 19:07
Still wintery here Vas, blizzard earlier, and temp down to -9 c overnight. Great:(. You have some substantial davvits there. How big was the tender? 30 footer? You will have to look at the ballast when you get rid of that much tin.

Good luck with the quilt. Looking good.

vas
23-01-13, 19:11
Still wintery here Vas, blizzard earlier, and temp down to -9 c overnight. Great:(. You have some substantial davvits there. How big was the tender? 30 footer? You will have to look at the ballast when you get rid of that much tin.

Good luck with the quilt. Looking good.

Alf was saying that the passerelle I wanted to fit is too heavy, that will teach him then :p
I guess these davits are going to be a good 50kg...

Tender was 2.7m rib with ripped baloon thingies that I stupidly threw away at the yard in Athens only to find out that it would cost me a few hundred euro to replace with hypalon stuff and make it as new :(
Did keep the 9.9hp two stroke engine, anchor, ropes, oars etc though :D

V.

rafiki_
23-01-13, 20:12
Alf was saying that the passerelle I wanted to fit is too heavy, that will teach him then :p
I guess these davits are going to be a good 50kg...

Tender was 2.7m rib with ripped baloon thingies that I stupidly threw away at the yard in Athens only to find out that it would cost me a few hundred euro to replace with hypalon stuff and make it as new :(
Did keep the 9.9hp two stroke engine, anchor, ropes, oars etc though :D

V.

Just goes to show, one mans rubbish, is another mans rubbish, unless repairable, when it is more valuable rubbish;)

Divemaster1
24-01-13, 09:41
Alf was saying that the passerelle I wanted to fit is too heavy, that will teach him then :p
I......
V.

Oii ... I just said that you'll have about 300 Kg hanging out on the back..., which is more than you have today, so it probably will be noticed... :)

vas
24-01-13, 22:15
Alf,

I feel that whittall davits + old passerelle + ropes et al VS 140kg besenzoni is probably 50kg difference, no big deal.
The bathing platform wont be done this year, so don't know how and how heavy it will be.

However, I noticed as I was stripping antifoul, primer and other carp, that the original antifoul waterline is way higher than were the boat was sitting in the water last year (with full water tank and halfful diesel 500 vs 1200lt)
How much heavier are the Detroits it had vs the ivecos? I vaguely remember reading in a spec sheet that the ivecos are 650kg with the gbox each.
I also remember ppl mentioning (YPB I think!) that re-engineering boats with lighter engines alter seakeeping properties.
where I'm getting at, is that probably a bit more weight is going to be fine, obviously you want it a bit further front... but then again I have to fit a black water tank and a few other things that carefully placed should try to balance out the whole thing..

cheers

V.

Divemaster1
24-01-13, 22:44
.......How much heavier are the Detroits it had vs the ivecos? I vaguely remember reading in a spec sheet that the ivecos are 650kg with the gbox each.

I also remember ppl mentioning (YPB I think!) that re-engineering boats with lighter engines alter seakeeping properties...........cheers

V.

Not concerned about the ovarall weight... just location of it...

The DD's 6/71's are seriously heavy and they will have filled the ER pretty well at about 1,500 Kg each, with Allison gearboxes (1,200 without)... unless you had the lightweight ones (used in minesweepers), that shaved off about 200 Kg.. ..(you could also have had 6V/53's which were much lighter @ a meere 1,050 Kg each).

vas
26-01-13, 10:23
morning all,
being keeping a photo track of the "operations" carried out at hull level, but realised I've not posted any photos so here are a few more...

So, portside waterline patched area just above and ending at the first chine. What the guys had done was strip the first layer of ply (on some areas the second one as well) and patched (literaly!) with a new piece of marine ply. This way the new strong piece was squeezing the slightly delaminated remaining layers onto the main iroko frames keeping it all together. On a couple of spots where the patch was not supported by a frame, they'd just slapped a couple of pieces of marine ply inside so that the ss (at least!) screws that "clamped" the whole thing together would find solid material to tighten against.
Er, hope it makes sense, not particularly good trying to explain structures/complex processes using text only. Hands and body should be part of it :rolleyes:

so removed patch + rest of original ply. Nice detail of the ply pieces supporting the wedge patch
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_23.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_24.jpg

cleaned roughly the area, lots of glue on the first pic, work was pretty poor at that point...
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_25.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_26.jpg

following pic shows the extend of the final area removed making sure that the remaining ply is trully solid. You can probably spot the black line marking where we'll cut a straight line for the patching.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_27.jpg

and here is the patch area after removing/cutting all old bronze screws and ss ones from the recent patches, with the lower chine beam/frame/whatever you call that piece sanded, cleaned and ready for fitting the new piece of ply.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_28.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_29.jpg


So, all the old ply was removed (for the history the bottom two layers were exceptionally strong, solid and glued perfectly to the frames even after 35+ yrs, and that's reassuring!) and we now have a long strip removed. We marked the straight line for the cut for the new patch. BTW, hull side ply is 12mm only (I'd expect it would be 15, but nope seems that 12 is enough)
I want to do a reasonable job at joining the two pieces hence I'm now slightly stuck. My industrial archaeology work revealed that the original joinery of two sheets of ply was done with a (excuse the wrong terminology) slanted cut of the two pieces at an amazing angle. I mean the overlap was over 55mm!!! There's no way in hell I can cut the ply on the boat at such an angle with any accuracy. So I want to use a handheld router with a tip that will let us have 65+ degree angle (better than the typical 45 but worse than the original 25...) Of course a solid piece of 15mm ply will be epoxied on the inner side of the join strenghtening the join. Now, that is where I'm stuck as I have to order the tip in Athens and will be 50euro and a week at least to get it here. Since I'll be in Athens half of next week I'll do it on the spot then ;)


Slowly moving my way to the stern, 6.5m of the overall 10.5m waterline is fully stripped, the rest will be done when I have the time and weather plays ball like it did most of the week but temps coming rapidly down and even worse wind is picking up... Seems that I can do around 1sqm (with keel and chines) in 2.5-3h, after that unsurprisingly the tools become "heavier" and the stripper blund. Interesting that the same tools work much better the next day :rolleyes:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_30.jpg

continued the cabin stripping where I managed to remove both beds in the second cabin, plus the drawer cabinet and today should be able to remove the door and the two floor panels so that I can get down to the hull to lightly sand the original grey bilge paint and get it cleaned and ready for CPESing.

Next mental deadline to fail to reach will be end of Feb for inner work preparation (hull, sides, ceiling) fully epoxied/painted/whatever so that I can start the slow re modelling process, route piping, bring cabling up front, new bulkheads for the two heads and redoing flooring et al.

cheers

V.

rafiki_
26-01-13, 10:29
Very interesting Vas. So how do you think the builders achieved the original chamfer angle? Presumably this degree of chamfer was required to achieve the prerequisite bond?
When screwed and glued, does the wood "pant" (stretch and contract?). I am guessing it will, so the trick is to give the structure the flexibility to do so, but you know all of this.

vas
26-01-13, 10:39
raf,
these vertical joints (all I've found is vertical) as lengthwise is the problem, top to bottom you have the chines stopping the continuity of the ply in regular intervals, are on double frames with a massive iroko plank (around 180X30 in section) all along the join. I see that the chamfer with the mating surfaces are in the middle and the screws securing the two pieces of ply to the underlying iroko are well OUTSIDE the chamfer area. So, it doesn't actually stress at all, and all forces are transfered to the iroko and via it to the frames in normal frame to ply manner. Simple and effective.
In essence I feel that the join between the ply sheets is not expected to be loadbearing, which of course makes you asking, why bother then? I think it's a matter of doing it properly so that it wont flake/delam etc. Mind you on the ply sections above the lower chine, I noticed that the joint area has suffered a bit and I had to be careful when stripping paint in patches that were damp as I tended to lift some of the top layer ply. Not a big deal though.

V.

jfm
26-01-13, 12:45
Great stuff Vas. The angle/overlap joint is called a scarf joint btw, or scarfing is the verb. It adds a nice benefit as you say in making the finsihed surface less prone to cracking by removing a "notch" ie a point or crease with different stiffness from the rest.

Ref the davits, the bolts will for sure be exposed if you remove the transom lining. But surely you want to keep the davits till you've done the aft deck, becuase they form a nice frame for your canvas tent?

Anyway, thanks for the pics. I'm enjoying following the story

rafiki_
26-01-13, 14:35
Great stuff Vas. The angle/overlap joint is called a scarf joint btw, or scarfing is the verb. It adds a nice benefit as you say in making the finsihed surface less prone to cracking by removing a "notch" ie a point or crease with different stiffness from the rest.

Ref the davits, the bolts will for sure be exposed if you remove the transom lining. But surely you want to keep the davits till you've done the aft deck, becuase they form a nice frame for your canvas tent?

Anyway, thanks for the pics. I'm enjoying following the story
JFM, can you start a glossary of terms please, for us boating plebs? Maybe a drop down thesaurus? :)

vas
27-01-13, 21:31
Great stuff Vas. The angle/overlap joint is called a scarf joint btw, or scarfing is the verb. It adds a nice benefit as you say in making the finsihed surface less prone to cracking by removing a "notch" ie a point or crease with different stiffness from the rest.


John, I owe you another one...

by giving me the right name for this joint, I managed to search successfully on the web, found ways of doing it, and how the pros do it. I'm not a pro, but with the help of George should be able to prepare the area for the first patch. Organised so tomorrow we'll have an electric plane and a belt sander for finishing off...

Preparing for the patches that will follow, I had to remove the flooring on the second cabin. Spent half an hour trying to figure out how to do it without destroying the ply and underlying frame, and eventually decided to scrap the lot. Ply was already affected (and of lower quality to the one I've seen around MiToS), frame was plain white timber.
Further I noticed that after the stbrd side bed of this cabin (i.e. towards the corridor) there's a nice flat bottomed area that I could install my black water tank. OK, I can hear you saying various things, but I'll try that spot as it's just offset from the keel, it's easily accessible, close to the two heads (just towards the bow of this cabin) and plenty of space: Max size of tank I could fit is 1.9mX0.45mX0.50m, that's massive! but could easily fit a 200-250lt tank there.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_31.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_32.jpg

apologies for the crappy photos, today wasn't a good day for some reason. Note the doubled up frames, the inner patches and the whole mess around this large patch that is about to be replaced:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_33.jpg

And a v. interesting discovery! When I was cleaning and generally walking above at the galley (OK walking maybe an exaggeration as you can just about make 1.5 steps in there...) I noticed that part of the floor was feeling a bit loose. Well, found out why. There's a secret hatch sawed in the floor ply and underlying frames. I really don't want to think what the PO has used it for :rolleyes: didn't find anything suspicious there :D

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/dodgy_hatch.jpg

So, all settled for tomorrow's operation



Ref the davits, the bolts will for sure be exposed if you remove the transom lining. But surely you want to keep the davits till you've done the aft deck, becuase they form a nice frame for your canvas tent?

Anyway, thanks for the pics. I'm enjoying following the story

f/b goes far aft almost reaching the transom, so no need of the davits to support my temp cover. Actually it's creating a problem as I could do the job with a 3m high cover and now I need something around 5m plus the stress points at the two peaks. So got to go soon, just checking my options re passerelle before removing them ;)

ah, +1 on rafiki's request for a glossary of terms! Would be v.nice and help me improve my terminology and sound like a pro;)

cheers

V.

vas
29-01-13, 22:39
last update for the week as I'm off to Athens till the w/e

Cleaned and sanded the inside of the second cabin frames/hull ply checking how the whole thing is constructed in order to organise the 2nd and larger patch between 2nd and 3rd chine.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_34.jpg
you can clearly see the pieces of ply used to bridge the gap between the old and new piece. Mind, no slanted cuts to be found in the patches, just straight vertical cuts and lots of black sika like rubber:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_35.jpg
same here:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_36.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_37.jpg

Turns out that the chine is a piece of iroko glued and screwed on top of the ply straight under a frame longitual support beam (JFM? terminology plz!)
Effectively we have the normal frames, a longitual beam 30X90 (approx) and a piece of ply at the slope of the hull glued and bolted UNDER the beam.
This way the ply that goes under all that distributes the forces to the frames and longitual beam keeping the whole thing in shape. Nice, clean and it works.
Which means that in order to do a proper patch, I need to cut and remove the chine outside, make the scarph join where the chine fits and refit the chine. This way patch is nicely, strongly and securely seated and I don't need to start adding crappy and awkward looking pieces of timber all over the place. Much neater!
Catch is there's no fcking way of removing 40yo bronze screws and the glue they've used is fortunately strong. This effectively means that the chine is destroyed and George will do new ones in the same shape and same timber to fit after the patch. Sound hard and horrible, but i'm quite happy with it as it makes a much stronger and neat repair.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_38.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_39.jpg

The port patch was prepared by George and looks like this. It's not fully finished, just roughly cut for now.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_40.jpg
note the old scarph joints, just perfectly done:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_41.jpg
that's the patch:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_42.jpg
However we run out of time so area covered up and patch slopes. mating and fitting will be done on Mon or Tue.

BTW, counted 7 layers of paint on the hull, I think one less than the superstructure :rolleyes:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_43.jpg

In the meantime, I decided to have a go at the stbrd side just to ascertain that it is indeed in much better shape than the port side.
Did a test excavation as my archaeologist friends would say between the first and second chine (where damage was revealed on the port side) and indeed it's in much better nick so quite happy.
There is a smaller patch (will be replaced!) on the first chine as per the port side but overall condition is indeed better...

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_44.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_45.jpg

enough for today, next installment next week.

cheers

V.

Nautorius
30-01-13, 18:48
Vas,

Once again I have nothing but admiration for the Job you are doing. She is being put right in every way. I love all the pictures and please keep posting. The inside of the cabin frames is fascinating...as for the Secret Hold...did she have many trips to Morocco?

Cheers

paul

vas
03-02-13, 12:31
Vas,

Once again I have nothing but admiration for the Job you are doing. She is being put right in every way. I love all the pictures and please keep posting. The inside of the cabin frames is fascinating...as for the Secret Hold...did she have many trips to Morocco?

Cheers

paul

thanks for the kind words...

as long as I enjoy the work, all's fine ;)
Morocco, hm, I've seen the old paper charts in the boat, saw routes traced all over the place, she's been practically everywhere around Greece all the way to Corfu, Rhodes, Crete. Have to check if there's any further south, doubt will be marked though :D

so, back from Athens, managed to buy a s/h gas oven in v.good nick for 150euro. 48cm wide 40 and 42 the other dimensions, in other words reasonable sized one good for a meal for 4+, so happy. It's a SMEV, no model # on the sticker. Task is getting it to fit somewhere but just been on MiToS and it looks like the old chart pocket under the chart table will be removed and the oven fitted there. Bit low for my liking (top of the oven will be at 750mm, but ergonomically sound.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/smev_oven_1.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/smev_oven_2.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/smev_oven_3.jpg

Next task is to get another (larger fridge as I can just about stick a 110lt job under the worktop and move the existing one to the saloon replacing some of the useless cabinets by the new to be built sofa. Sizes match, just a matter of getting the right fridge/freezer at the right price (i.e. cheap! )

Inner of MiToS is covered in a fine dust as George sanded all the inside of the frames/hull/superstructure on the bow cabin and port cabin and couldn't get the vacuum cleaner to fit the bleeding pipework of the small orbital sander :( He's using a decent mask and goggles but dust is everywhere. Will have to vacuum everything in the next few days, that'll be fun!

cheers

V.

rafiki_
03-02-13, 20:40
Vas, what's happened? Why aren't you rebuilding the oven? :)

vas
03-02-13, 20:55
Vas, what's happened? Why aren't you rebuilding the oven? :)

If you mean the original, there wasn't one :(
Actually for a 43ft (without a bathing platform) craft galley is well placed but v.small. Just a two gas hob thing integrated in the sink ss assembly and a fridge. I guess it is a 80s thing...
Things are getting more complicated as I'm replacing the series of cupboards with an extra sofa on the stbrd side and I'm trying to find places to store plates and glassware.

If you mean the one I bought, of course, it went downstairs to the garage/workshop to be dismantled/cleaned and examined. TBH, there's a bit of surface rust on the galvanised steel panels around it, but the actual oven is practically new. Well looks as it's never been used.

V.

jfm
04-02-13, 01:52
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_41.jpg

Thanks for update Vas. I gotta say, the original plywood, pic above, is beautiful looking quality stuff. Mahogany or sapele all the way through, it appears, and really well pressed and bonded, and free of voids/joints

Longitudinals have to be "stringers", afaik. It's "scarf" not "scarph" though you can of course be forgiven for "ph" being Greek :) You only have one chine: the edges below the chine are "spray rails" or "lift strips"

vas
06-02-13, 00:47
Thanks for update Vas. I gotta say, the original plywood, pic above, is beautiful looking quality stuff. Mahogany or sapele all the way through, it appears, and really well pressed and bonded, and free of voids/joints

Longitudinals have to be "stringers", afaik. It's "scarf" not "scarph" though you can of course be forgiven for "ph" being Greek :) You only have one chine: the edges below the chine are "spray rails" or "lift strips"
thanks JFM for the terminology, must find some time to go back to previous posts and do the corrections, not today though :D

scarφ would be nicer don't you think? :p

Sometimes I wish MiToS work would progress at 1/10th of the speed that M2 goes, amazing work!

anyway, some reasonable progress after two days hard work:

Removed the floor in the bow cabin (well most of it) after sanding the hull inside. It was only a thin(ish) coat of bilge grey which slightly confuses me. I'd expect they'd done a decent job at coating all the surfaces, but nope. I guess it was a matter of wanting to let the ply breath somehow. I'll be treating all frames/ply with clear penetrating epoxy once the weather turns foul and I wont be able to work outside. Apparently Wed is the last of the alcyon days as they call them here, weather was brilliant, no wind, clear skies and 16-17C, so got to rush and do the port patch tomorrow.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/alcyondays.jpg

ok, back to work this is how the bow cabin looks now. Yes, still a lot of rubble to be shifted (cannot really call all that plain debris...)
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_46.jpg

nicely sanded hull sides up to the chine, rest to do keel to use the heatgun and stripper.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_47.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_48.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_49.jpg


Stbrd side patch was opened up, checked and George started cleaning it (one gazzilion ss screws clamping the new thin ply on top of the two final layers of the original with lots of glue... Brilliant workmanship, not!
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_50.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_51.jpg
serious quantities of glue here. It's quite reassuring that the whole thing didn't sink with such bad repairs...
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_52.jpg

Port side ready for patching, applied the first coat of CPES today, next tomorrow morning before patching.
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_53.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_54.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_55.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_56.jpg

Here you see the first non scarf joined hull ply. Yes, there's another 12mm ply underneath, but it's rather odd they did it like this. Further, seems that they've also changed ply as the aft one is much more white than the forward one...

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_57.jpg


Diesel tanks revealed for the first time. Looks like they are covered with fiberglass, look quite original though. Anyone got any clue as what's happening here? Further should I be worried of leaks?
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_58.jpg

Finally, proud to report that I've only got half a metre left to finish off stripping the port side. Stbrd should be faster as arms are growing stronger and condition is much better on stbrd side!
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_59.jpg


cheers

V.

longjohnsilver
06-02-13, 02:23
Well done Vas, what you have achieved so far is amazing. I'm really looking forward to seeing the end result, she will be stunning. If there was a forum award for hard work and perseverance you would win it by a country mile!

rafiki_
06-02-13, 08:13
Well done Vas, what you have achieved so far is amazing. I'm really looking forward to seeing the end result, she will be stunning. If there was a forum award for hard work and perseverance you would win it by a country mile!

+1

Great pix as ever Vas, and really interesting to see Mitos revealed in all her gory.

KevB
06-02-13, 12:20
Vas,

Following your progress is the main reason I return to the forums on a regular basis. It's amazing to see the transformation. All your hard work will be worth it and I look forward to seeing the finished project.

Kevin

rustybarge
06-02-13, 12:32
Vas,

Following your progress is the main reason I return to the forums on a regular basis. It's amazing to see the transformation. All your hard work will be worth it and I look forward to seeing the finished project.

Kevin

+1

Congratulations on a fantastic blog. I built a 60' steel barge for scratch, so I know exactly what you're going through. I'm amazed how light the frames are, just shows how strong and durable plywood is. I think it's lighter and stronger than fibreglass, and easier to repair.

Keep up the good work!

mikef
06-02-13, 15:26
Well done Vas, what you have achieved so far is amazing. I'm really looking forward to seeing the end result, she will be stunning. If there was a forum award for hard work and perseverance you would win it by a country mile!
I agree with that. This is a huge project that not many of us would have had the guts or determination to tackle. Well, I wouldn't anyway so great work, vas

MapisM
07-02-13, 22:11
I agree with that. This is a huge project that not many of us would have had the guts or determination to tackle.
+3.
Actually, not just the guts and determination, but also the capabilities.
Congrats!

Robg71
07-02-13, 22:22
Wow, just read this all the way through. What a task, and fantastic work.
Great stuff, brilliant thread

vas
08-02-13, 20:12
thanks all for the kind words!

LJS, hard work and perseverance are first cousins to stupidity, right? I'm not complaining as I'm not really the office type person and get bored easily, so serves me right atm

rustybarge, no built thread/pics? pitty, when was that barge building anyway? Regarding plywood, you may be right that it's strong, but don't forget that if it was grp, it wouldn't need repairing in the first place ;) All damage was due to water ingress from the decks above delaminating (mainly) the hull plywood.

MM, haven't felt that MiToS rebuilt is technically challenging as yet. A lot of hard work, yes but nothing technical/exceptional as such. It's going to be more interesting over the next couple of weeks when I try to find ways to support the new heads bulkheads that:

are not coinsiding with the underlying frames!
are not even parallel to the frames :eek:

got a few 1:20 scale printouts at the living room, keeping company to my daughter that wanted to see again! Mama Mia and trying to figure out how to do it properly and still have decent access to the hull from inside, be able to fit floors that wont leak, etc...
Will do some mockups tomorrow and get a proper feel of the space.

Now, two days of hard work and today we managed to fit two of the three w/l patches on the port side. Not being able to use a press/clamp, we resorted to the many small ss screws to keep the edge properly mating the old ply. I'll remove many of the ss screws placed on the edge to the old ply tomorrow and epoxy/sand/fill it

Job was easily done, no hiccups, nice and clean:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_60.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_61.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_62.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_63.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_64.jpg

Stbrd side stripping progresses in a very patchy way, depending on wind, temp and ofcourse which part of the arms/back ache :rolleyes:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_65.jpg

Still looks like I'll be finished with the hull before the end of the month ;)

cheers

V.

vas
10-02-13, 08:54
quick update,

finished the port side w/l patching with the third and largest one:

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_66.jpg
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_67.jpg

Note, there are too many screws some of them will be removed once epoxy cures as they're doing what a clamp should do but couldn't be fitted...

Prepared the stbrd side patch. It's a long orthogonal one, but too long for a piece of ply, so will be done in two:
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_68.jpg

I had a go at clearing up the mess in the fwd ex-cabin and figuring out the best way to strip paint down to bare wood.
Seems that a combination of heat and sanding is in order, heat first to scrape some extra layers of various colour paint and then finish off with 40grit on the small orbital sander. Corners to be done using the immitation fein tool of mine with a 90mm triangular sanding attachment.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_69.jpg

Looks good but awfully messy even with mask/googles etc. Progress is swift though, so should be preparing the framework and construction details for the heads bulkheads very soon. A few questions in different threads to come soon.
Next pic is from the bow cabin looking aft you can see the frames and stringers (JFM?) and the bulkhead. Need to remove the rest of the floor (only 40cm left of this bow cabin) and clean the rest. Mind moving about in an empty hull with lots of thinish strips of timber protruding, keel bolts and whathaveyou is not great fun or relaxing for your feet/legs...
http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_70.jpg

cheers

V

burgundyben
10-02-13, 21:28
Next pic is from the bow cabin looking aft you can see the frames and stringers (JFM?) and the bulkhead.


A scanlting in the bilge running for'n'aft I would call a stringer. Similarly, above the waterline a scantling running for'n'aft I would call a carlin.

Those timbers in the bottom of the V that are through bolted to the lower extremities of the frames I would call floors.

Interesting how you have choosen to use a scarf where your ply repairs meet the existing timber, with a moulded or ply hull that's very important, I would have routed both peices to half thickness with a 50mm overlap, but your method looks an excellent job to me.

vas
12-02-13, 22:04
A scanlting in the bilge running for'n'aft I would call a stringer. Similarly, above the waterline a scantling running for'n'aft I would call a carlin.

Those timbers in the bottom of the V that are through bolted to the lower extremities of the frames I would call floors.

Interesting how you have choosen to use a scarf where your ply repairs meet the existing timber, with a moulded or ply hull that's very important, I would have routed both peices to half thickness with a 50mm overlap, but your method looks an excellent job to me.

Thanks for the terminology update BB :)

Moto is better be safe than sorry. In terms of loadbearing properties and transfer of loads from member to member, to my engineering eyes scarf always looks better than other solutions. Turns out that it's not that difficult either. OK, it's not machine made 1:8 proportions, but 1:5 handmade and test fitted a few times ;)

Still thinking if I should sheathe the hull with a fine epoxy mat and the necessary coats of epoxy.
Still not persuaded that it's a V.Good idea as the ply wont be able to breathe at all when out and that cannot be a good thing unless you're absolutely sure you don't let any water in.
Dunno, open to ideas atm!


Today the two patches on the stbrd side were put in place and some of the extra screws that were temporarily fitted were removed and holes epoxied.
Also did some more hull stripping as the weather was brilliant (rain was forecasted though...) and if I do believe these guys, winter is coming by the w/e. Not sure what that means this year though.

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_71.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_72.jpg

Inside, removed the rest of the ex bow-cabin floor and continued paint stripping and finishing with a good sanding (60grit is enough to create a big dust fog although the filter is on...)
I guess that another two full days inthere will get me a clean space to start fitting the new bulkheads. Did my tests both on autocad and with a tapemeasure on the spot, looks good, so happy. Overstressed my wrist and looks like I may be out of action for a couple of days :( Nothing serious a 30yo damage coming back whenever I overdo it and today it was a matter of not tightening enough the wristwrap I'm always wearing when working manually.


http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_73.jpg

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt5/hullstripping_74.jpg

Happy to report that got a bowthruster off e-bay at a good price QL800 5KW/24V and should have it down here by the end of the month.
Should be interesting getting the 185grp tunel to fit and secure on the plywood :D

Also should be getting a second fridge/freezer 60-70lt for the galley, moving the existing one to the saloon.

BTW, did like very much the grey colour on the video that Portofino posted on the surface drive thread. Will photoshop a pic and think about it!

cheers


V.

jfm
12-02-13, 22:38
A scanlting in the bilge running for'n'aft I would call a stringer. Similarly, above the waterline a scantling running for'n'aft I would call a carlin.

Those timbers in the bottom of the V that are through bolted to the lower extremities of the frames I would call floors.

Interesting how you have choosen to use a scarf where your ply repairs meet the existing timber, with a moulded or ply hull that's very important, I would have routed both peices to half thickness with a 50mm overlap, but your method looks an excellent job to me.

Ooh. I would call the fore-aft members "stringers" whether above or below the w/line. In my book a carlin is a fore-aft "joist" that supports the deck. And while we're at it, the athwartships "joists" that support the deck, visible in the Mitos pics, are "beams".

I agree about the "floors" though. If anywhere other than on the boat's centreline I think I'd call them "knees", but where they are they are floors :)

Finally, I think a joint where you remove 50% of the material's thickness each side of the join is still a scarf. It doesn't have to be tapered to be a scarf.

It's all fuzzy, and the above is just where I am on the topic. I'm happy to be shown to be wrong!