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dylanwinter
11-10-12, 21:00
a comment on the Kudu thread got me thinking about Bilge keels/twin keel prejudice

they are now part of Britain's sailing heritage

yet a lot of poeple I have met would never touch a boat with them

Katie L is parked at Brough above the Humber Bridge

the estauary drains to about 2m in the channel - if you can find it

yet most of the yachts there have deep single keels

so they sail ay high tide and then go back to Brough to hide in the deep mud

I have had the triple keeled slug, I have had a a couple of drop keelers and a fin keeler and now I have two sub keels and a centre plate

I don't think I would ever go back to a single keel

I love the shallow bits too much

Dylan

Tranona
11-10-12, 21:17
Same reason as they (often the same people) despise AWBs. They are prejudiced and unable to see that individuals want different things out of their boats which horror of horrors might result in them buying something these ostriches despise.

Having said that, one of the first things I did when I refitted my Eventide many moons ago was remove the bilge keels. Reason simple - I have a deep water mooring and by deepening the central keel I improved the sailing ability, but lost the facility to dry out on a mooring.

The keels now perform the useful function of blocking a gap in my back fence to stop my new labrador puppy from escaping.

chinita
11-10-12, 21:34
Although I adore my long keel wooden Vertue I often crave for the flexibility offered by my bilge keel Konsort when I took her from Whitby to Beaumaris back in 1998.

If I ever have another boat it will certainly be one able to take the ground.

galadriel
11-10-12, 22:03
I'd say there is a big difference between bilge keels and twin keels. Bilge keels Kingfisher 26 (?) sails sideways a lot, or twin keels Sadler 26/29, well DJE can tell you better than I can, (psst, sail pretty well)

onesea
11-10-12, 22:06
Horses for courses, I grew up deep keel, started here on the Solent bilge keel and have now switched to 1.9m of fin.

Change of life style we now appreciate performance and sail through lunch. The size of boat we wanted and depth of keels needed with the local tidal range means we appreciate the sailing performance more than we would large bilge keels that would take most of the tide to dry out...

If you cannot walk ashore you are going to need a dinghy so you might as well anchor. If there is not a marina handy...

Allot comes down to area and how you sail.

For the Humber (having never sailed there) can I suggest that if shallow draft does not help you get on and off the mooring. The tidal range is such that the wait for the keel to lift from the mud is such its not significant.That there are sufficient bolt holes and river with suitable depth at LW to enjoy a LW sail people are appreciating the performance of deep keels.

Oh and the ability to sail away form Hull and Great Grimsby :D:D:D

Pleiades
11-10-12, 22:08
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv137/NikonFM3/portrushsnappy_zps380ca754.jpg
A bilge keeler like the above little Snappy can provide fantastic value for money and can be kept afloat in shallow harbours where a long or fin keel would fall over. As far as sailing performance goes, well that Snappy will sail all day long on a small Raymarine autohelm which is a good indication of a light helm and good tracking. She tacks and heaves too easily. And in comparison with similar boats of any keel configuration she is certainly fast enough to be fun even if not ultimately as slippery. An advantage over a lifting keel is that the cabin can be open and surprisingly spacious because you don't have the lifting keel aparatus to take up precious cabin space and none of the maintenance problems associated with lifting keels as they age. Having owned lifting keel, long fin, bilge and long keel I found that when I moved to a long fin I did appreciate the better sailing performance. As I kept them on a deep water mooring I rarely dried my bilge keeler out or needed to lift the keel so had no need for the advantages of bilge. And now with a long keel I prefer that to all but certainly little bilge keelers can be just the craft for perfect coasting.

Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

photodog
11-10-12, 22:13
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv137/NikonFM3/portrushsnappy_zps380ca754.jpg
A bilge keeler like the above little Snappy can provide fantastic value for money and can be kept afloat in shallow harbours where a long or fin keel would fall over. As far as sailing performance goes, well that Snappy will sail all day long on a small Raymarine autohelm which is a good indication of a light helm and good tracking. She tacks and heaves too easily. And in comparison with similar boats of any keel configuration she is certainly fast enough to be fun even if not ultimately as slippery. An advantage over a lifting keel is that the cabin can be open and surprisingly spacious because you don't have the lifting keel aparatus to take up precious cabin space and none of the maintenance problems associated with lifting keels as they age. Having owned lifting keel, long fin, bilge and long keel I found that when I moved to a long fin I did appreciate the better sailing performance. As I kept them on a deep water mooring I rarely dried my bilge keeler out or needed to lift the keel so had no need for the advantages of bilge. And now with a long keel I prefer that to all but certainly little bilge keelers can be just the craft for perfect coasting.

Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

Well... It can't sail that well if he needs TWO motors! :eek:

Searush
11-10-12, 22:27
Twin keels are perfick for big tides, sandbanks & drying harbours around N Wales & Anglesey. There are only a handful of all tide harbours (Holyhead, Amlwch & the Straits) but there are dozens of delightful drying harbours & anchorages all around the area, so a fin keel (without legs) would be so restrictive as to be not worth having, except for the long passage makers.

I find short coastal hops are far more fun than 12 hour open sea passages, but fortunately we are all different, otherwise the price of twin keelers would be astronomical!

Pleiades
11-10-12, 22:35
Two engines cause its a proper little sea going ship -a main OB (6hp) and an auxiliary (3.5hp - perfect for trolling for fishes) - reminds me of the time the skipper had occasion to offer to tow in an RNLI Rib there on a windless day when their (single) outboard packed up - much to their embarrassment. He could even have offered to lend the RNLI the spare engine but that would probably have been rubbing it in......Two engines is better than one no matter how well it sails :p

glashen
11-10-12, 23:07
Katie L is parked at Brough above the Humber Bridge

the estauary drains to about 2m in the channel - if you can find it



Having sailed from Christchurch all my life the idea of having 2 meters in the channel at LW sounds like absolute luxury, we don't get 2 meters on HW so most of us have bilge keels or lowering/swinging keels. I have a triple keel Trident 24 and enjoy the flexibility the shallow draft gives and the ability to take the ground when I want. It is something I have noticed cruising that a lot of deep keel yachts are excluded from some of the idyllic spots that us bilge keelers enjoy. But I must admit the regime of the tides dictating when you can set off as never been that big an issue for me. I think I actually enjoy the discipline it enforces.

Wansworth
11-10-12, 23:35
Back in the early 60 yachting in cabined boats took off and there was not enough room in deep waterfor the indusrty to grow so they built bilge keelers to sit on the mud.Probaqbly the majority where lousy sailing boats with little science applied to their design.They got off to a bad start.My tutor thought bilge keels were an abomination and looking at a fine keel boat compared to a stubby B/K it was hard to argue.With the coming of the Westerly 26 things started looking up .With the golden years and credit people gradually could afford keel boats and their moorings. and they wanted bigger boats so out whent the bilge keelers.Maybe now there will be a return to them....

dylanwinter
11-10-12, 23:42
Back in the early 60 yachting in cabined boats took off and there was not enough room in deep waterfor the indusrty to grow so they built bilge keelers to sit on the mud.Probaqbly the majority where lousy sailing boats with little science applied to their design.They got off to a bad start.My tutor thought bilge keels were an abomination and looking at a fine keel boat compared to a stubby B/K it was hard to argue.With the coming of the Westerly 26 things started looking up .With the golden years and credit people gradually could afford keel boats and their moorings. and they wanted bigger boats so out whent the bilge keelers.Maybe now there will be a return to them....

sounds like a great summary

Dylan

Tomahawk
12-10-12, 05:56
Few years ago I saw an article about a French boat... (it would be French as they like to inovate) designed for a three peaks type race.. where one has to run ashore and up a hill for some odd reason... The design issue was that there were no marinas. only drying beaches and inlets

It was only 24 feet long but had a mini transat type hull form but with swinging twin keels some 2m long.. She could sit on the ground with the keels up then deploy the leward one for beating... apparently it was very fast...

Merry Girl
12-10-12, 06:17
Here's Roger Taylor on choosing bilge keeled Corribee Ming Ming:

'For my money, the shallow draft was good for both coastal cruising and blue water work - a light boat with a deep keel can easily by tripped and capsized if thrown sideways by a breaking sea; shallow draft reduces this possibility'.

Voyages of a simple sailor, p149.

bemugg124
12-10-12, 06:37
Bilge keels and twin keels is quite difference
A bilge keeler can be kept afloat in shallow harbours
As for the twin keels are perfick for big tides

dylanwinter
12-10-12, 07:25
Here's Roger Taylor on choosing bilge keeled Corribee Ming Ming:

'For my money, the shallow draft was good for both coastal cruising and blue water work - a light boat with a deep keel can easily by tripped and capsized if thrown sideways by a breaking sea; shallow draft reduces this possibility'.

Voyages of a simple sailor, p149.

so the ideal sea boat

twin keels

and as old Middleton says

21 feet long

“Seamen tell me that there are great curling seas which will swallow up anything;and I can fully understand that no vessel could live in the heavy breqakers to be met with on the Cornish coast; but I have run before curling seas, of certainly from 18 to 20 feet high, off Cromer, and yet nothing of any importance has ever come on board. I have looked behind and seen waves which threatened to curl right over me; but they always run under the ster, the white water rushing along the descks on each side sifficient to drown an open boat, but of no consequence to a decked on.

Again the length of twenty-one feet is of the greatest advantage when running , for the boat only contends with one sea at a time; whereas greater length is sometimes hung on two, and frequently overruns the seas. The wave usually carries The Kate along with it – for this rreason, that the greatest beam is about three feet aft of the mainmast. The sea therefore holds onto that point and sweeps the boat along on its edge (if it is curler) until broken, when the staunch little craft rushes through the white water as smoothly as possible.”



EE Middleton – the Cruise of the Kate 1868

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/blogs/the-ideal-length-for-a-yacht-is-21-feet/

DJE
12-10-12, 07:50
I'd say there is a big difference between bilge keels and twin keels. Bilge keels Kingfisher 26 (?) sails sideways a lot, or twin keels Sadler 26/29, well DJE can tell you better than I can, (psst, sail pretty well)

It's all been said before many times. Some people listen, others don't want to hear it. There is a huge difference between the early bilge keelers with two stubby vertical keels and internal ballast (which were designed to keep the moulds simple) and modern designs with high aspect inclined keels like the Sadler 290 or RM880. But for some people a bilge keeler is a bilger keeler is a bilge keeler and that's all there is to it.

The Sadlers are somewhere inbetween the two extremes but fairly sophisticated as the keels are fairly deep, inclined, and of assymetric section so that they develop lift to windward when heeled. Ours has been know to give bigger fin keeled boats a run for their money to windward (ask Galadriel :eek:)!

Ours lives on a deep water mooring and we rarely dry her out completely except for a scrub or to visit places like Brignogan Plage or Sauzon! But the greatest benefit in crowded waters is the ability to anchor in the shallows and happily take the ground for a couple of hours at low water.

dt4134
12-10-12, 07:54
Is there not a middle ground between 'hate' and just prefering the sailing characteristics of deep fin keeled boats?

dylanwinter
12-10-12, 08:07
Is there not a middle ground between 'hate' and just prefering the sailing characteristics of deep fin keeled boats?

and I am sure you inhabit that lovely middle ground

but I think there might be some people who hate the whole idea

not hate as in "I hate people who flog horses or dogs"

but hate as in

"I would never ever buy one as all bilge/twin keelers sail like dogs and should never go more than two miles from shore because they are dangerous and should really be banned"

sort of hate

Dylan

DJE
12-10-12, 08:10
"I would never ever buy one as all bilge/twin keelers sail like dogs and should never go more than two miles from shore because they are dangerous and should really be banned"

sort of hate

prej·u·dice
   [prej-uh-dis] Show IPA noun, verb, prej·u·diced, prej·u·dic·ing.
noun
1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
4. such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending.
5. damage or injury; detriment: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority.

Dockhead
12-10-12, 08:21
I have never owned one, but with 2.4 meters of draft I often have to stand off and watch with pure envy as bilge keelers tuck into places I would love to go, but can't even get near.

For tidal areas like the English Channel, I would love to have a bilge keel boat, if I were rich and/or crazy enough to keep two boats. I used to have quite a lot of fantasies about having one, and where I would go with it, and what I would do. It probably doubles or triples your cruising area, compared to a deep fin keel boat like mine.

It's the ideal type of boat for this area, in my opinion, if you don't care about ultimate sailing performance. Considering how few sailors around here really work hard upwind ("gentlemen don't go to windward"), I am surprised that bilge keelers don't make up the majority of the fleet.

Barr Avel
12-10-12, 08:23
Few years ago I saw an article about a French boat... (it would be French as they like to inovate) designed for a three peaks type race.. where one has to run ashore and up a hill for some odd reason... The design issue was that there were no marinas. only drying beaches and inlets

It was only 24 feet long but had a mini transat type hull form but with swinging twin keels some 2m long.. She could sit on the ground with the keels up then deploy the leward one for beating... apparently it was very fast...

Heol 7.4 ?

http://www.allboatsavenue.com/blog-bateaux/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/Heol-7.4-Altona-Echouable-Beechable-2.jpg

Seajet
12-10-12, 08:54
The first boat I ever sailed on as a boy was a Robert Tucker designed Mystic plywood twin keeler.

She was achingly pretty, red white and blue, her owner our friend Charlie Solley was a veteran of the Murmansk convoys, in those days I'm sure he could never have dreamed of his own 'yacht', this is where such 1st generation twin keelers scored, getting people afloat who couldn't have gone the old route with Vertues & similar.

However she sailed like a house ! We tacked up and down the Solent seeing the same mark each time...

Much later my Dad had a Centaur; it was a very capable, go almost anywhere boat, BUT, and here is I think a source of some of the prejudice, the handling / feedback was terrible.

It would do anything asked of it, but there was absolutely no feel, feedback or enjoyment to be had from the tiller.

Alright dad had been spoilt by my boat which has a particularly rewarding feedback, but even so I'm afraid the Centaur was a travelling machine, not a fun boat.

I believe boats like a Sadler 29 or Fulmar twin keeler would probably get over this and they certainly sail well; over about 26' it becomes hard work to design and operate lift keels, so if looking for a boat around 30' it would certainly be a Sadler or Fulmar for me; even if I had a deep water mooring / berth I'd still go for a twin keel job, though I'd want to sail it first to check the feel on the helm...

Tomahawk
12-10-12, 09:12
Heol 7.4 ?

http://www.allboatsavenue.com/blog-bateaux/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/Heol-7.4-Altona-Echouable-Beechable-2.jpg

That is the one!
seems to be a jolly good idea for our left inclined friend...

georgeo
12-10-12, 09:40
It's all been said before many times. Some people listen, others don't want to hear it. There is a huge difference between the early bilge keelers with two stubby vertical keels and internal ballast (which were designed to keep the moulds simple) and modern designs with high aspect inclined keels like the Sadler 290 or RM880. But for some people a bilge keeler is a bilger keeler is a bilge keeler and that's all there is to it.

The Sadlers are somewhere inbetween the two extremes but fairly sophisticated as the keels are fairly deep, inclined, and of assymetric section so that they develop lift to windward when heeled. Ours has been know to give bigger fin keeled boats a run for their money to windward (ask Galadriel :eek:)!

Ours lives on a deep water mooring and we rarely dry her out completely except for a scrub or to visit places like Brignogan Plage or Sauzon! But the greatest benefit in crowded waters is the ability to anchor in the shallows and happily take the ground for a couple of hours at low water.

I have said it before and I will say it again......my RM suits me just fine, for all the reasons pointed out in this thread. And, although she loses a bit on pointing ability, but goes like a train just slightly off the wind

ospreyk30
12-10-12, 10:51
I'd say there is a big difference between bilge keels and twin keels. Bilge keels Kingfisher 26 (?) sails sideways a lot, or twin keels Sadler 26/29, well DJE can tell you better than I can, (psst, sail pretty well)

A Kingfisher 26 won the OSTAR in 1972 on handicap by going 'sideways'. BTW - there is no bilge so therefore Twin Keel would be correct. Deep aerofoil keels with skeg, lots of bite.

Owned one for 14 years - great little boats.

dylanwinter
12-10-12, 11:04
That is the one!
seems to be a jolly good idea for our left inclined friend...

not my cup of tea at all

imagine how easy those keels would be to damage next time I hit a supermrket trolly

wotayottie
12-10-12, 11:04
They dont "hate" them Dylan. You are suffering from headline syndrome where no one had a "dislike" - they only "hate". No one has a "minor problem" - only a " disaster".

dylanwinter
12-10-12, 11:14
They dont "hate" them Dylan. You are suffering from headline syndrome where no one had a "dislike" - they only "hate". No one has a "minor problem" - only a " disaster".

aplogies for the hyperbole

old hack syndrome

I once got into a lot of trouble

it was an item about glue sniffing among teenagers

I headlined it

"UHU Hoo-Ha"

the boss had a class A rant at me

and it really was a rant

his reason....

every fule kno that the second H should be lower caps

Dylan

Perry
12-10-12, 11:17
I used to sail out of Christchurch on a Centaur and really loved going to the shallow places like through Poole Harbour to Wareham, up the Medina to Newport, the Beaulieu River Etc. Been to loads of placed the other side of the Channel as well on the Centaur.

It is great fun sailing on 50 footers but sometimes it is just a different to slow down and have a little one again

Sybarite
12-10-12, 11:21
aplogies for the hyperbole

old hack syndrome

I once got into a lot of trouble

it was an item about glue sniffing among teenagers

I headlined it

"UHU Hoo-Ha"

the boss had a class A rant at me

and it really was a rant

his reason....

every fule kno that the second H should be lower caps

Dylan

There are twin keels and twin keels. Some of the recent ones such as the RM series or Surprise have high performance profiled twin keels. One RM owner told me however that they weren't too good downwind.

It's perhaps interesting that two leading architects: Michel Joubert and J-P Brouns both have twin keelers for their personal boats.

Searush
12-10-12, 11:24
FWIW, the inventor of twin keels (& they always were designed to an aerofoil section) was Lord Riversdale with his various "Bluebird" & Bluebird of Thorne" boats from the 1930's on. The last of these was designed as an ocean going yacht & was cruised extensively around & across the Atlantic (North & South).

One of them was spotted by D A Rayner at Beaumaris shortly after the war & he spent a bit of time studying the hull form & chatting to he owner & designer. The result was the Westcoaster & then the Westerly 22, 25, Nomad, Windrush, 30 et.al. All of these boats had swept back cast iron keels slightly toed out & with a distinctive aerofoil section (curved outside & flat inside). The also sailed quite well, especially when compared to the more traditional long keelers.

Uffa Fox went for narrow deep keels which are more efficient - but restrict the owner to deep water, which is no problem for teh racing man, but of no interest to a shoal water cruiser.

The later stumpy flat GRP keels were designed by people who simply didn't consider what the keels were for & just assumed that cheap little moulded legs would suffice.

It's horses for courses, if you like shoal water, you need shallow draft & twin keels offer that without the risk of a lost or jammed centreplate & the intrusion of a large centre board casing into the cabin.

Seajet
12-10-12, 11:25
aplogies for the hyperbole

old hack syndrome

I once got into a lot of trouble

it was an item about glue sniffing among teenagers

I headlined it

"UHU Hoo-Ha"

the boss had a class A rant at me

and it really was a rant

his reason....

every fule kno that the second H should be lower caps

Dylan

Dylan,

I remember seeing a 'Punch' front page when glue-sniffing first appeared, with the 'Bisto Kids', noses in the air, " Ahhh, Bostick ! " :)

dt4134
12-10-12, 11:35
and I am sure you inhabit that lovely middle ground

but I think there might be some people who hate the whole idea

not hate as in "I hate people who flog horses or dogs"

but hate as in

"I would never ever buy one as all bilge/twin keelers sail like dogs and should never go more than two miles from shore because they are dangerous and should really be banned"

sort of hate

Dylan

I'm afraid I don't think I would ever buy a bilge keeler , but best wishes to anyone who wants one whatever sailing they do, so no 'hate'. Even though I'd be aground in your more or less 2m of depth in the channel.

And anyway, if I wanted shallow draft I suspect something like this is more likely to appeal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkrOphtlcrw

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?CLASS_ID=5465

As others have pointed out, the French do seem to have the initiative with shallow draft boats.

Sybarite
12-10-12, 11:58
I'm afraid I don't think I would ever buy a bilge keeler , but best wishes to anyone who wants one whatever sailing they do, so no 'hate'. Even though I'd be aground in your more or less 2m of depth in the channel.

And anyway, if I wanted shallow draft I suspect something like this is more likely to appeal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkrOphtlcrw

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?CLASS_ID=5465

As others have pointed out, the French do seem to have the initiative with shallow draft boats.

I know the person who demonstrates these Pogos. He's in his 70's looks 50 and has a boat freely at his disposal on condition that he is available for demonstration sails. Now there's a retirement job!

Sybarite
12-10-12, 11:59
FWIW, the inventor of twin keels (& they always were designed to an aerofoil section) was Lord Riversdale with his various "Bluebird" & Bluebird of Thorne" boats from the 1930's on. The last of these was designed as an ocean going yacht & was cruised extensively around & across the Atlantic (North & South).

One of them was spotted by D A Rayner at Beaumaris shortly after the war & he spent a bit of time studying the hull form & chatting to he owner & designer. The result was the Westcoaster & then the Westerly 22, 25, Nomad, Windrush, 30 et.al. All of these boats had swept back cast iron keels slightly toed out & with a distinctive aerofoil section (curved outside & flat inside). The also sailed quite well, especially when compared to the more traditional long keelers.

Uffa Fox went for narrow deep keels which are more efficient - but restrict the owner to deep water, which is no problem for teh racing man, but of no interest to a shoal water cruiser.

The later stumpy flat GRP keels were designed by people who simply didn't consider what the keels were for & just assumed that cheap little moulded legs would suffice.

It's horses for courses, if you like shoal water, you need shallow draft & twin keels offer that without the risk of a lost or jammed centreplate & the intrusion of a large centre board casing into the cabin.

A good compromise might be a Scheel keel which is reputed to have about the same performance as a deep keel. For drying out, twin skegs? Or possibly the Collins tandem keel?

Tranona
12-10-12, 12:07
A good compromise might be a Scheel keel which is reputed to have about the same performance as a deep keel. For drying out, twin skegs? Or possibly the Collins tandem keel?

The Scheel keel seems to have gone out of fashion along with wing and tandem keels. Long bulbs were popular for a while with some builders like Beneteau to get shallow(er) draft. My Bavaria has 1.4m draft and a long bulb to keep stability the same as the deep keel but loses performance as it is not a good foil. Does enable transit of Canal du Midi though!

DJE
12-10-12, 14:01
All of these boats had swept back cast iron keels slightly toed out & with a distinctive aerofoil section (curved outside & flat inside).

So that's what's wrong with my boat then; my keels are flat on the outside and curved on the inside! :confused:

dt4134
12-10-12, 14:04
So that's what's wrong with my boat then; my keels are flat on the outside and curved on the inside! :confused:

Do they have 'P' and 'S' stamped on them? Or even 'L' & 'R'? :)

aquaplane
12-10-12, 14:42
So that's what's wrong with my boat then; my keels are flat on the outside and curved on the inside! :confused:

I think yours are the right way round and Mr Rush has got it wrong for a change.

Our Leisure 27 had them as you describe. On my Centaur they are more symetrical but do have a bit of toe in.

Roger Ball posted a link to his blog/picassa on the Centaur update thread:
https://picasaweb.google.com/110182886418433827802/CentaurReDesign#5738774234527722258

Jonas
12-10-12, 15:15
Do they have 'P' and 'S' stamped on them? Or even 'L' & 'R'? :)

Just realised why all the wife's knickers have 'C&A' on them...

AntarcticPilot
12-10-12, 15:17
aplogies for the hyperbole

old hack syndrome

I once got into a lot of trouble

it was an item about glue sniffing among teenagers

I headlined it

"UHU Hoo-Ha"

the boss had a class A rant at me

and it really was a rant

his reason....

every fule kno that the second H should be lower caps

Dylan
You must have been well-respected - I thought headlines were the job of sub-editors!

A1Sailor
12-10-12, 16:03
My first two yachts, a Sadler 25 and a Moody336 were both fin keel. I ended up purchasing cradles for both, which tended to determine where I'd store them each winter...
When selecting my current boat, another Sadler25, I set out to purchase either that or a twin keel Sadler26. It just seems so much more practical and flexible - you can do this, for example:
http://www.rpdpublications.eu/images/DR/YBW/Scrub.jpg
Apart from a "slapping noise" from waves on the windward keel when heeled, I haven't noticed a huge difference in performance.

Searush
12-10-12, 16:31
I think yours are the right way round and Mr Rush has got it wrong for a change.

Our Leisure 27 had them as you describe. On my Centaur they are more symetrical but do have a bit of toe in.

Roger Ball posted a link to his blog/picassa on the Centaur update thread:
https://picasaweb.google.com/110182886418433827802/CentaurReDesign#5738774234527722258

:D:D probably not much of a change really! :o

But yes, the aerofoil curve does need to be on the inside, doesn't it!

Seajet
12-10-12, 16:52
:D:D probably not much of a change really! :o

But yes, the aerofoil curve does need to be on the inside, doesn't it!

Searush,

I was going to question that, then realised you're only considering the leeward keel, which I suppose is all one can do.

One factor I've seen some designers of twin keels ( and the odd fin ) apparently ignore is frontal resistance, no point being foil shaped if it's a foot thick !

Also some people seem to be getting their knickers in a twist over twin v bilge keels;

Bilge keels were originally plates to allow a boat with a usually shallow central stub keel to dry out.

Twin keels are purpose designed without a central ballast stub.

Even some 1st generation bilge and twin keel designs had splayed keels, no reason not to as they were wooden boats.

Twin vertical keels came a touch later to make moulding early grp twin keelers possible with encapsulated keels, and be able to get them out of the mould; VicS's Sea Wych being possibly the best known example.

DownWest
12-10-12, 17:11
:D:D probably not much of a change really! :o

But yes, the aerofoil curve does need to be on the inside, doesn't it!

Yes, I was a bit puzzled by that. I grew up next to the drawing board of my aeronautic trained father, who went on to design several boats in the 50/60s. Cox Marine asked him to design the 21, but spect twin keels. So he gave them a nice foil section and toed them in a bit. There was also a fin option, which sold a few.
The reasoning being that the angle of heel gives the leeward one a better bite to offset the windward one which is working against it. I helped a bit on that design.
There were plenty of early designs that favoured cheap moulding over performance, which may be the reason for the 'hate' talked about.
Taking the ground does allow more scope and cheaper cruising, just depends on how you go about it.
DW

Seajet
12-10-12, 17:20
In honour of Down West and his Dad, I always thought she looked a good, bullet-proof sort of boat;

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee132/gvtol/Cox21-1.jpg?t=1350062333
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee132/gvtol/Cox21-2.jpg?t=1350062473
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee132/gvtol/Cox21-3.jpg?t=1350062544
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee132/gvtol/Cox21-4.jpg?t=1350062609

DownWest
12-10-12, 17:26
.

One factor I've seen some designers of twin keels ( and the odd fin ) apparently ignore is frontal resistance, no point being foil shaped if it's a foot thick !

Even some 1st generation bilge and twin keel designs had splayed keels, no reason not to as they were wooden boats.

Twin vertical keels came a touch later to make moulding early grp twin keelers possible with encapsulated keels, and be able to get them out of the mould; VicS's Sea Wych being possibly the best known example.

Humm,
Thick good foils stall less easily, something noticed by the high efficiency fin mob, when their thin high aspect keels get a bit off the 'curve'. Same with rudders.

Many of the popular ply boats had canted bilge keels, but often in steel plate, with no foil shape at all. Cost was important. And windward abilty less worried about as an absolute.

DownWest
12-10-12, 17:34
Hey SJ, Thanks for that!

We had quite a few discussions on the deck layout and ergonomics of the cockpit and the plug was built by the old man at home in Norfolk.
The angular coachroof was to avoid a sliding hatch (cost)
I gather one did a Transat.
DW

Edit: Like the flowery language in the literature. Def not my father's......

Seajet
12-10-12, 17:44
DownWest,

as you may have guessed I was the sort of brat who annoyed salesmen at boat shows going aboard everything and collecting brochures.

I saw the Cox 21 at Southampton I'm pretty sure, but my folks didn't and I had a hard time persuading them.

She was high on my list, until we saw an Anderson streak past a friends' boat, that was it !

I've only ever seen the odd one around, thought they deserved more success; maybe there are enclaves of them in different spots around the coast.

Keels look OK too !

DownWest
12-10-12, 18:03
DownWest,

as you may have guessed I was the sort of brat who annoyed salesmen at boat shows going aboard everything and collecting brochures.

I saw the Cox 21 at Southampton I'm pretty sure, but my folks didn't and I had a hard time persuading them.

She was high on my list, until we saw an Anderson streak past a friends' boat, that was it !

I've only ever seen the odd one around, thought they deserved more success; maybe there are enclaves of them in different spots around the coast.

Keels look OK too !

Yes, I used to be on our stand at EC in the early days. Saw a lot like you with bulging bags of brochures (wonderwhat they did with them?) Peeps were of various types: Yours... then the ones that already had one of our boats and wanted to talk about it. The tyre kickers and.. the very few that actually were interested in buying. Father gave it up in the end. The cost never outweighed the result. Except.. if you weren't there, people assumed you had dropped off the edge. But, other advertising was more effective.

Thanks for the feedback, BUT this thread is about keels...so I will drift off.....

OGITD
12-10-12, 18:15
I’m so glad that people haven’t forgotten the explanation and diagram from (RT) about the reduced drag, and therefore the less likelihood of being rolled in a twin-keel boat. :)

Also the fact that some are designed with splayed keels and incorporating an aerofoil design / casting (which mine have,) (flat inside, curved outside.) :confused:

Plus the fact that they can ‘take the ground’ and therefore offer more opportunities in small coastal harbours etc. ;)

But! …. I can’t honestly say which way they are toed & by how much ….. so it’s out with the measure as she’s being lifted out tomorrow.

OG.

dgadee
12-10-12, 18:38
I'm afraid I don't think I would ever buy a bilge keeler , but best wishes to anyone who wants one whatever sailing they do, so no 'hate'.

I never did either - looked at various deep keelers when I was looking to buy but changed mind during search and now very happy with a Seawolf 30. Sails very well indeed.

DownWest
12-10-12, 18:41
[QUOTE=Old Glow In The Deeps;3795485]I’m so glad that people haven’t forgotten the explanation and diagram from (RT) about the reduced drag, and therefore the less likelihood of being rolled in a twin-keel boat. :)

Also the fact that some are designed with splayed keels and incorporating an aerofoil design / casting (which mine have,) (flat inside, curved outside.) :confused:

Plus the fact that they can ‘take the ground’ and therefore offer more opportunities in small coastal harbours etc. ;)

But! …. I can’t honestly say which way they are toed & by how much ….. so it’s out with the measure as she’s being lifted out tomorrow.

OG.[/QUOTE

A simple aerofoil has a flat underside and a curved topside. The highest point of the curve is around 1/3 back from the front edge. The lifting effect is caused by the differing speeds of the airflow over the two surfaces. It lifts towards the curved side, so if you are expecting the lee keel to do the lifting, the curve needs to be on the inner side.
In reality, the section would be similar on both sides, just tilted (toed in) to the centre line.
DW

OGITD
12-10-12, 19:11
A simple aerofoil has a flat underside and a curved topside. The highest point of the curve is around 1/3 back from the front edge. The lifting effect is caused by the differing speeds of the airflow over the two surfaces. It lifts towards the curved side, so if you are expecting the lee keel to do the lifting, the curve needs to be on the inner side.
In reality, the section would be similar on both sides, just tilted (toed in) to the centre line.
DW

Surely …. If the curve on the leeward keel is on the outside, then it is trying to right the boat and counter the force of the wind on the sails pushing her over, and as leeward is deeper than windward there is more pressure and therefore more force?:confused:

mikeinkwazi
12-10-12, 19:25
Surely …. If the curve on the leeward keel is on the outside, then it is trying to right the boat and counter the force of the wind on the sails pushing her over, and as leeward is deeper than windward there is more pressure and therefore more force?:confused:

No that is not the case. Think of a the wing on a glider, the curved bit is on the top. As the the glider moves forward and toward ground (to leaward) the wing generates lift. So in a boat the curved side of an asymetrical foil (keel) is on the inside in the case of twin keels

OGITD
12-10-12, 19:34
No that is not the case. Think of a the wing on a glider, the curved bit is on the top. As the the glider moves forward and toward ground (to leaward) the wing generates lift. So in a boat the curved side of an asymetrical foil (keel) is on the inside in the case of twin keels

I'm off for a good look tomorrow! :o :rolleyes: :confused:

As I think you might be right! & it's curved on the inside!

CAPTAIN FANTASTIC
12-10-12, 20:37
Over the years, I have owned and sailed all type of keel configurations; the twin keels is a compromise which suits me and I enjoy to sail.

Most people hate them because they can not sail them. To make a twin keeler to sail well, you need to know how to trim the sails and balance the boat. In addition, the twin keelers have the advantage of going where others can not; low cost moorings; sail upright; dry out upright (very convenient in the boat yard)

dylanwinter
12-10-12, 20:49
Over the years, I have owned and sailed all type of keel configurations; the twin keels is a compromise which suits me and I enjoy to sail.

Most people hate them because they can not sail them. To make a twin keeler to sail well, you need to know how to trim the sails and balance the boat. In addition, the twin keelers have the advantage of going where others can not; low cost moorings; sail upright; dry out upright (very convenient in the boat yard)

great response

I shall remember that

you need to be a better sailor

Dylan

Seajet
12-10-12, 20:58
Over the years, I have owned and sailed all type of keel configurations; the twin keels is a compromise which suits me and I enjoy to sail.

Most people hate them because they can not sail them. To make a twin keeler to sail well, you need to know how to trim the sails and balance the boat. In addition, the twin keelers have the advantage of going where others can not; low cost moorings; sail upright; dry out upright (very convenient in the boat yard)

I think I have a fair idea how to sail and trim a boat, but it proved impossible to get decent 'feedback & feel' with a late model Centaur even when we tried various trim tabs, fences, sections and vortex generators; good luck getting any 'feel' on the helm of a MacWester !

Then again I was utterly spoilt by things like Scorpion & Osprey dinghies and the Anderson, when we came in alongside a club member once under sail at dead low speed the Macwester owner - a pro airline pilot - couldn't believe our low speed feel and control authority.

grumpy_o_g
13-10-12, 00:01
Don't understand the whole premise of liking or not liking a boat because it's got more than one keel. Bit like deciding whether or not you like a bloke by the colour of his hair or skin or something. There's lovely twin/bilge keelers and lets say those with a lovely personality, same as fin/single keelers and different boats have different aims/compromises. I'm not sure I'd like a boat that did everything perfectly actually - half the fun is getting the best out of boat despite her limitations.

I agree with Dylan though - if you don't explore the backwaters you're missing a beautiful world. When I started sailing on the east coast in the '70's it was one of the reasons for putting up with a decent tender dragging along behind when cruising - you could use it to get ashore in comfort and to explore the shallows.

Re: toe-in on the keels, this can be minimal or even zero as the leeway will give you some angle of attack so generating lift (and drag of course). Like everything else to do with boats it's a compromise as the toe-in and curve (which gives a bigger frontal area and a greater wetted surface) means more drag off the wind. The good thing is you can't do much about it so you can blame the designer. :):)

Sgeir
13-10-12, 00:12
We chartered a twin keeled Hunter once and were slightly put off by its lack of bite going into wind. That was probably largely down to our lack of experience at the time, and our unfamiliarity with the self-tacking jib, but I felt that it just could not cut through choppy seas while going into wind. We later bought a long finned boat which we believed to be better suited for our cruising area in The West.

As it happens, I'm wondering about getting my bawbees together for a wee trailerable bilge or lift keeler for splodging about on the Forth in the winter. Must be Dylan's influence.

Seajet
13-10-12, 00:18
We chartered a twin keeled Hunter once and were slightly put off by its lack of bite going into wind. That was probably largely down to our lack of experience at the time, and our unfamiliarity with the self-tacking jib, but I felt that it just could not cut through choppy seas while going into wind. We later bought a long finned boat which we believed to be better suited for our cruising area in The West.

As it happens, I'm wondering about getting my bawbees together for a wee trailerable bilge or lift keeler for splodging about on the Forth in the winter. Must be Dylan's influence.

Sgeir,

could well be it needed paying off a little to get the sails and more to the point the keels working as speed built up ?

CAPTAIN FANTASTIC
13-10-12, 06:29
great response

I shall remember that

you need to be a better sailor

Dylan

It is obvious; is it not?? Perhaps the RYA should introduce the " Yachtmaster Twin Keeler" qualification; theory and practical :D:D:D:D

dylanwinter
13-10-12, 08:55
It is obvious; is it not?? Perhaps the RYA should introduce the " Yachtmaster Twin Keeler" qualification; theory and practical :D:D:D:D

probably the most evil post of the thread........



however, I have an idea

I am going to start a series of courses on shoal water sailing

several modules

1/ chart work - the use of google earth to look for places where the sea is close to the land - crinkly bit analysis - ten winter evenings - shorebased

2/how to sail a bilge keeler (don't harden everything up to breaking point and stop sailing the bloody thing on its ear) - five day course

3/the use of a pea stick echo-sounder - three days - including tip analysis, wrist action and interpreting the results

4/reversing off when you get your keels stuck - two days

5/rocking the boat to try to get it unstuck - one day (physical fitness certificate needed)

6/making tea, building sandwhiches, reading books, using the bins to look at birds, going for a walk while waiting for the tide. This will include a unit on determining the depth of the mud using the pea-stick before stepping over the side. There will also be some Zen based training to help you to enjoy watching the tide slowly creep back under your boat




the whole suite of courses will be priced at an exceptionally affordable £5,000 plus VAT

while the price might put some people off then that might be a good thing as people should know that sailing is expensive, hard to do and dangerous

You will be awarded a certificate that will qualify you to buy a **** little boat for under £1000 and start sailing.

Searush
13-10-12, 09:00
People might pay that to spend a fortnight on the water with you, Dylan.

doug748
13-10-12, 11:42
Further to Wottayottie's point.

I turned to the Kudu thread expecting to see the fascist fin keelers ripping into the bilge rats, red in tooth and claw. What a let down.

I paraphrase, One bloke said:

"I think it is a bilge keel boat"

The other bloke replied:

"Oh, I did't know that"








Twinkeelgate.

Habebty
13-10-12, 16:33
Sadler 290

1 tonne lead on each keel with slightly more rounded profile on the outside. Slight toe-in angle as well.

Not exactly shallow draught at 1.4m but points well and goes like a goodun.

Very stiff boat.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee82/Wherry_2007/Image006.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee82/Wherry_2007/Image005.jpg

dylanwinter
13-10-12, 16:42
Sadler 290

1 tonne lead on each keel with slightly more rounded profile on the outside. Slight toe-in angle as well.

Not exactly shallow draught at 1.4m but points well and goes like a goodun.

Very stiff boat.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee82/Wherry_2007/Image006.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee82/Wherry_2007/Image005.jpg

great looking boat

perfect

but - each keel weighs the same as my whole boat

D

A1Sailor
13-10-12, 17:26
Lovely boat! How do you keep her so clean and shiny? Even the fenders are polished:).

lustyd
13-10-12, 17:39
Lovely boat! How do you keep her so clean and shiny? Even the fenders are polished:).

Simples, it lives in that carpark! Yours only gets dirty because you put it in the dirty water :D

Sybarite
13-10-12, 18:17
probably the most evil post of the thread........



however, I have an idea

I am going to start a series of courses on shoal water sailing

several modules

1/ chart work - the use of google earth to look for places where the sea is close to the land - crinkly bit analysis - ten winter evenings - shorebased

2/how to sail a bilge keeler (don't harden everything up to breaking point and stop sailing the bloody thing on its ear) - five day course

3/the use of a pea stick echo-sounder - three days - including tip analysis, wrist action and interpreting the results

4/reversing off when you get your keels stuck - two days

5/rocking the boat to try to get it unstuck - one day (physical fitness certificate needed)

6/making tea, building sandwhiches, reading books, using the bins to look at birds, going for a walk while waiting for the tide. This will include a unit on determining the depth of the mud using the pea-stick before stepping over the side. There will also be some Zen based training to help you to enjoy watching the tide slowly creep back under your boat




the whole suite of courses will be priced at an exceptionally affordable £5,000 plus VAT

while the price might put some people off then that might be a good thing as people should know that sailing is expensive, hard to do and dangerous

You will be awarded a certificate that will qualify you to buy a **** little boat for under £1000 and start sailing.

Great idea - I presume it's a residential course so how many couples can you deal with?

dt4134
13-10-12, 18:26
probably the most evil post of the thread........



however, I have an idea

I am going to start a series of courses on shoal water sailing

several modules

1/ chart work - the use of google earth to look for places where the sea is close to the land - crinkly bit analysis - ten winter evenings - shorebased

2/how to sail a bilge keeler (don't harden everything up to breaking point and stop sailing the bloody thing on its ear) - five day course

3/the use of a pea stick echo-sounder - three days - including tip analysis, wrist action and interpreting the results

4/reversing off when you get your keels stuck - two days

5/rocking the boat to try to get it unstuck - one day (physical fitness certificate needed)

6/making tea, building sandwhiches, reading books, using the bins to look at birds, going for a walk while waiting for the tide. This will include a unit on determining the depth of the mud using the pea-stick before stepping over the side. There will also be some Zen based training to help you to enjoy watching the tide slowly creep back under your boat




the whole suite of courses will be priced at an exceptionally affordable £5,000 plus VAT

while the price might put some people off then that might be a good thing as people should know that sailing is expensive, hard to do and dangerous

You will be awarded a certificate that will qualify you to buy a **** little boat for under £1000 and start sailing.

You can't just leave it at that. Just like RYA Day Skippers have to do a little bit of night sailing in case the day runs out, you will need to include something like "Consideration of action when echo sounder goes off the scale". You could perhaps even set up a number to a counselling help line at £1/min.

chris46
13-10-12, 18:34
i quite like the idea of buying a twin keel boat like a corribee,as long as you know what you are doing while sailing it ,i suppose you could go anywhere within reason and the added bonus of plonking her down on a bit of mud and goo without falling over.
JeSRsDg2Rf8

JustinC
13-12-12, 13:55
I have a 35 foot Westerly OceanQuest bilge keel and agree with one of the former comments that you simply need to adjust your weight and sail set up differently. Once you´ve got the hang of that, then the rest follows.

And the definite advantage is you get to anchor places where others don´t or can´t.

My only query would be whether the general movement on a bilge-keel is different - perhaps more sensitive than the same weight in a fin keel - as I notice we tend to bob around a bit more than other similar size boats, and wonder if that´s because the weight is split in two, and perhaps may make it more "sensitive". Any thoughts on this ?

That said, once we load her up with full tanks and the rest, she tends to sit a bit quieter!

dgadee
13-12-12, 14:23
My only query would be whether the general movement on a bilge-keel is different - perhaps more sensitive than the same weight in a fin keel - as I notice we tend to bob around a bit more than other similar size boats, and wonder if that´s because the weight is split in two, and perhaps may make it more "sensitive". Any thoughts on this ?

That said, once we load her up with full tanks and the rest, she tends to sit a bit quieter!

My 30 foot twin keeler has a very tall mast, and with the wind howling it is always the most inclined in the marina. I've - almost - got used to that now.

BruceDanforth
13-12-12, 14:31
I think often the twin / bilge keelers are older boats and many of them have totally knackered sails. With my Hurley 22 bk she sailed pretty badly with a lot of leeway when I got her but with a new main from Jeckells this season she's going like a train. Headsail to follow next season hopefully.

So it isn't just keels.

johnalison
13-12-12, 15:48
I would rather criticise a man's wife than his choice of boat. I have sailed a few bilge-keelers and they seem to do what it says on the tin, but not much more in the case of these old designs.

What surprises me though, is the number of owners who don't actually use them for their best feature - drying out. There are places in the Scilly Isles, Brittany and the Channel isles that are just crying out for boats taking the ground and many sailors who have bought suitable craft but don't.

Camelia
13-12-12, 16:14
What surprises me though, is the number of owners who don't actually use them for their best feature - drying out. There are places in the Scilly Isles, Brittany and the Channel isles that are just crying out for boats taking the ground and many sailors who have bought suitable craft but don't.

Shhh we don't want to fill our lovely secret hidaways up with yachts...

wotayottie
13-12-12, 17:33
Same reason as they (often the same people) despise AWBs. .

I reckon you are completely wrong here. There is only one AWB maker with bilge keels and they are relatively recent. Most bilge keel owners will own MAB boats usually British made. So if anything those who dislike AWBs will like bilgies.

Storyline
13-12-12, 18:45
Someone earlier in the thread said - horses for courses and I completely agree.

We had a 31' bilge keeled Westerly for the best part of 20 years and sailed mostly around the Irish Sea and frequently dried out in many harbours and anchorages. Although the racers in our club poured scorn on her, she was a strong sea boat and although she could not point very high sailed really well with the wind on the beam. Each summer we would have a fortnight in Scotland. After many years we got fed up of the 36 hour slog up and down from Liverpool and decided that a 5 hour drive was preferable so based her up on the west coast.

After 5 years we wanted a bigger boat (actually all we really wanted was more luxury) and it was a real wrench to lose the ability to dry out but when we analysed it, the tidal range was so low and we realised we never actually dried out in Scotland.

Now we have a 36' long fin and have no regrets. The boat sails much better and is so powerful it provides all the adrenaline needed before spending the night at anchor sipping chilled wine and beer from the new fridge. I am not a rabid ex smoker type convert but if drying out is not a priority then I think the sheer extra sailing pleasure of a fin keeler wins out.

JimC
13-12-12, 18:54
... There is only one AWB maker with bilge keels and they are relatively recent...
More than that I think.
http://www.wrightonyachts.com/
http://www.marinesalesuk.co.uk/
http://www.britishhunter.co.uk/
http://www.rm-yachts.com
though not sure if British Hunters or RMs fall under the heading of AWBs

jwilson
13-12-12, 19:10
a comment on the Kudu thread got me thinking about Bilge keels/twin keel prejudice

they are now part of Britain's sailing heritage

yet a lot of poeple I have met would never touch a boat with them

Katie L is parked at Brough above the Humber Bridge

the estauary drains to about 2m in the channel - if you can find it

yet most of the yachts there have deep single keels

so they sail ay high tide and then go back to Brough to hide in the deep mud

I have had the triple keeled slug, I have had a a couple of drop keelers and a fin keeler and now I have two sub keels and a centre plate

I don't think I would ever go back to a single keel

I love the shallow bits too much

Dylan
Have owned a centreboarder, twin-keeler, long-keeler and now a modern deep-fin-keeler. Each was ideal for my £££ at the time, and where I sailed at the time. Occasionally I hanker after a good twin-keeler, maybe an RM, or an Ovni-type centreboarder.

A1Sailor
13-12-12, 19:30
What surprises me though, is the number of owners who don't actually use them for their best feature - drying out. There are places in the Scilly Isles, Brittany and the Channel isles that are just crying out for boats taking the ground and many sailors who have bought suitable craft but don't.

St Ninian's Bay on the west coast of Bute on the Clyde. Firm, level sand - perfect, particularly in northerly winds.
http://www.rpdpublications.eu/images/DR/YBW/Scrub.jpg

Storyline
13-12-12, 19:39
St Ninian's Bay on the west coast of Bute on the Clyde. Firm, level sand - perfect, particularly in northerly winds.
http://www.rpdpublications.eu/images/DR/YBW/Scrub.jpg

Oh, you make me jealous :) - apart from the advantage of being able to walk to the pub it is so nice to be able to walk around and check out all is well with the hull.

Jaguar 25
29-12-12, 12:19
I have a twin keeler but have never dried out. Lots of beaches around Liverpool but they are very shallow in terms of water normally a long way from the start of the beach e.g. Southport, Ainsdale. So:
1. How do you decide where is suitable for drying out.
2. Once settled onto the sand, etc., how do you stop her tipping over if you walk up to the bow or hang over the stern. In a boatyard for my twin keel Jaguar, it was essential to prop up fore and aft. No props in the picture.

Searush
29-12-12, 13:10
I have a twin keeler but have never dried out. Lots of beaches around Liverpool but they are very shallow in terms of water normally a long way from the start of the beach e.g. Southport, Ainsdale. So:
1. How do you decide where is suitable for drying out.
2. Once settled onto the sand, etc., how do you stop her tipping over if you walk up to the bow or hang over the stern. In a boatyard for my twin keel Jaguar, it was essential to prop up fore and aft. No props in the picture.

Is it essential to prop fore & aft? Have you tried without? Some boats tip when they dry out but it shouldn't do them any harm - they ought to be designed to take it. Tipping over on and is no more than inconvenient.

You need a sheltered beach to dry out, Southport, Ainsdale etc can be VERY exposed. Once a front passes thro the NW'lies could esily break your boat apart. Meols is protected by a drying sandbank & quite few boats have drying moorings there, The same goes for West Kirby & Heswall. They are exposed at HW, but you take the ground & lift off before the sandbanks are covered. You may find similar conditions up river towards Hale too.

Best places to take the ground are Anglesey & N Wales or IoM, or head up towards Ravenglass. The Mersey isn't that good for cruising options, whch I why, despite living there for many years I have hardly ever sailed it.

dylanwinter
29-12-12, 13:15
Is it essential to prop fore & aft? Have you tried without? Some boats tip when they dry out but it shouldn't do them any harm - they ought to be designed to take it. Tipping over on and is no more than inconvenient.

You need a sheltered beach to dry out, Southport, Ainsdale etc can be VERY exposed. Once a front passes thro the NW'lies could esily break your boat apart. Meols is protected by a drying sandbank & quite few boats have drying moorings there, The same goes for West Kirby & Heswall. They are exposed at HW, but you take the ground & lift off before the sandbanks are covered. You may find similar conditions up river towards Hale too.

Best places to take the ground are Anglesey & N Wales or IoM, or head up towards Ravenglass. The Mersey isn't that good for cruising options, whch I why, despite living there for many years I have hardly ever sailed it.

I carry a peastick or dowell

that way you can find out what the bottom is like before settling down

Dylan

LittleSister
29-12-12, 13:45
Few years ago I saw an article about a French boat... (it would be French as they like to inovate) designed for a three peaks type race.. where one has to run ashore and up a hill for some odd reason... The design issue was that there were no marinas. only drying beaches and inlets

It was only 24 feet long but had a mini transat type hull form but with swinging twin keels some 2m long.. She could sit on the ground with the keels up then deploy the leward one for beating... apparently it was very fast...


Heol 7.4 ?

http://www.allboatsavenue.com/blog-bateaux/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/Heol-7.4-Altona-Echouable-Beechable-2.jpg

Innovative French? That's all old hat - witness the Fairey Atalanta, twin swing keels, hi-tech lightweight construction: 24ft prototype 1955, on sale 1956 as a 26 footer, later 20 foot and 31 foot versions. (For Dylan - there used to be one on the Humber at Brough about 10 years ago.)

Searush
29-12-12, 14:00
Fairy Atalanta? wasn't that one of Uffa Fox's based on his airborne lifeboat concept, triple layer cold moulded wooden hulls. Strong enough to be dropped from aircraft into the North Sea for ditched aircrews to be able to rescue themselves & sail/ row/ motor home complete with rig, oars, engine, food, cooker, fuel & medical kit.

IIRC the Admiralty didn't believe it could be done, so he made the prototype himself & demonstrated the concept worked. Saved a lot of air crews lives & without the need for constant, dangerous sea borne rescue patrols.

A1Sailor
29-12-12, 14:34
St Ninian's Bay on the west coast of Bute on the Clyde. Firm, level sand - perfect, particularly in northerly winds.
http://www.rpdpublications.eu/images/DR/YBW/Scrub.jpg
I have had my present boat since May and have dried it out once - so don't consider myself an expert. I did it to do it! Also to do some cleaning and investigate prop & anodes. I didn't go fwd of the mast once the water had disappeared - there was no need. The skeg supports the aft end when aground. The anchor & chain were obviously not on board!
Essential, as others have said, to pick your location and weather. Avoid significant waves, and a change in sea conditions in the hours before you refloat.
The picture above is taken looking south; the one below looking north. Click for a googlemap. (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=St+Ninian%27s+Bay&hl=en&sll=55.802058,-5.131638&sspn=0.02552,0.084543&oq=st+ninians&t=h&gl=uk&hnear=St+Ninian%27s+Bay&z=14) The bay is totally exposed to the south-west, so I picked a day with a north-westerly wind. I wouldn't have done it with any amount of south in the wind. I anchored at HW with about a metre under the keel(s), and the water was so clear/the sand so clean that I knew there were no obstructions. The occasional rock had seaweed growing from it, so easy to avoid. The water reappeared remarkably quickly when it did!:)
http://www.rpdpublications.eu/images/DR/YBW/StNiniansBayBute.jpg

dgadee
29-12-12, 14:39
Drying out is ok, but how do you get up and down off the boat? This is currently occupying my thoughts - a collapsible ladder? A rope ladder? Some sort of sliding ladder on the stern (a long folding one may be difficult to fit beside my self steering ...)? Ideas welcome.

A1Sailor
29-12-12, 14:51
Drying out is ok, but how do you get up and down off the boat? This is currently occupying my thoughts - a collapsible ladder? A rope ladder? Some sort of sliding ladder on the stern (a long folding one may be difficult to fit beside my self steering ...)? Ideas welcome.
http://www.rpdpublications.eu/images/DR/YBW/ladder.jpg Boat has a draft of just under a metre, but it is still about 2-3ft from the bottom of the ladder to the ground. I used the rubber dinghy, while it could still float - with everything I needed just reachable in the cockpit.

JimC
29-12-12, 17:16
I use one of these http://www.telescopic-ladders-direct.com/acatalog/Standard-telescopic-ladders.html?gclid=CPG0s6iOwLQCFcjKtAodXj8ANA You have to remeber to pull them back aboard before the tide comes back in as they don't take kindly to salt water.

A1Sailor
29-12-12, 17:23
The other thing that struck me on refloating was that I hadn't forewarned HM Coastguard. Imagine the embarassment of being "rescued" by a lifeboat if somebody watching me 'run aground' had dialled 999! Unlikely - but possible...:o
The local residents are probably used to such goings on.

causeway
29-12-12, 19:18
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv137/NikonFM3/portrushsnappy_zps380ca754.jpg
A bilge keeler like the above little Snappy can provide fantastic value for money and can be kept afloat in shallow harbours where a long or fin keel would fall over. As far as sailing performance goes, well that Snappy will sail all day long on a small Raymarine autohelm which is a good indication of a light helm and good tracking. She tacks and heaves too easily. And in comparison with similar boats of any keel configuration she is certainly fast enough to be fun even if not ultimately as slippery. An advantage over a lifting keel is that the cabin can be open and surprisingly spacious because you don't have the lifting keel aparatus to take up precious cabin space and none of the maintenance problems associated with lifting keels as they age. Having owned lifting keel, long fin, bilge and long keel I found that when I moved to a long fin I did appreciate the better sailing performance. As I kept them on a deep water mooring I rarely dried my bilge keeler out or needed to lift the keel so had no need for the advantages of bilge. And now with a long keel I prefer that to all but certainly little bilge keelers can be just the craft for perfect coasting.

Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

But what were you doing in Portrush?? :)

Pitterpatter
29-12-12, 19:24
Drying out is ok, but how do you get up and down off the boat? This is currently occupying my thoughts - a collapsible ladder? A rope ladder? Some sort of sliding ladder on the stern (a long folding one may be difficult to fit beside my self steering ...)? Ideas welcome.

I am fitting a ladder to our new to us Fulmar. The main aim is to be able to get on and off the boat while dried out. I reckon http://www.force4.co.uk/9370/Force-4-Boarding-Ladder-with-Wooden-Steps.html will do and give a sensible height when dried out. Although I have also seen one of the emergency type ladders has additional, hook on sections sold seperately that may hook onto the bottom to give an extra rung when needed.

interloper
29-12-12, 20:12
I remember seeing many years ago an article in Yachting Monthly that compared four variants of the Sadler 32: Deep Fin, Shallow Fin, Bilge Keel, and Lifting Keel. Snooping around on the web, I found a document that features some of the conclusions from the article < http://www.mikelucasyachting.co.uk/sadler-starlight-boats/articles/keel-choice.pdf >:

Performance comparisons. Comments have already been made regarding performance for the various keel configurations in relation to each type of boat. However, an interesting exercise was conducted by Yachting Monthly in 1981 to compare the four main keel options fitted to a Sadler 32 and I have drawn from this article a few conclusions which are relevant and I am sure
you will find interesting.

SADLER 32

Under power turning circle (x length) in ahead
Deep fin 1.3
Shallow fin 1.5
Bilge keel 1.0
Lifting keel 1.3 plate up 1.5 plate down

Under power turning circle (x length) in astern
Deep fin 2.5
Shallow fin 2.5
Bilge keel 1.7
Lifting keel 2.5

Under sail (wind 22 knots, close hauled) weather helm, tiller angle
Deep fin 10º
Shallow fin 12º
Bilge keel 20º
Lifting keel 14º

Under sail (wind 22 knots, close hauled) angle of heel
Deep fin 20º
Shallow fin 20-25º
Bilge keel 25-30º
Lifting keel 25º

Under sail (wind 22 knots, close hauled) effective tacking angle
Deep fin 73º
Shallow fin 75º
Bilge keel 80º
Lifting keel 75º

Summary. Not surprisingly, the 32 tests show that deep fin keel gives the best performance and "stiffness". However, the shallow fin pays only a small penalty in this respect, with the advantage of 12" less draft.

Choice of twin keel does sacrifice a fair amount of performance, but has the advantage of shallow draft and stability aground. However, manouverability under power is significantly better with twin keel.

In practice, a shallow fin and twin keel yacht is likely to reef earlier than the deep fin keel yacht and would thence display less heel angle and weatherhelm than shown, at 22 knots of wind.

Only broad conclusions can be drawn from these tests, insofar as the other Sadlers are concerned, but the indications are interesting. It is likely that performance differences would be less evident with the 29 and 26, where twin keels are more popular.

OGITD
29-12-12, 20:34
No that is not the case. Think of a the wing on a glider, the curved bit is on the top. As the the glider moves forward and toward ground (to leaward) the wing generates lift. So in a boat the curved side of an asymetrical foil (keel) is on the inside in the case of twin keels


I'm off for a good look tomorrow! :o :rolleyes: :confused:

As I think you might be right! & it's curved on the inside!

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk31/JMosson/PortKeel_1Small.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk31/JMosson/PortKeel_2Small.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk31/JMosson/BothKeelsSmall.jpg

dgadee
29-12-12, 20:39
Very interesting comparative data on the Saddler indeed. My twin keel Seawolf 30 turns on a sixpence and I find I reef quite early (though the main is very large anyway) to keep my heel at around 20 degrees for best speed. Not sure about pointing - will have to look into this and compare the figures with the one's you have provided.

Seajet
29-12-12, 20:49
The Seawolf 30 has a relatively huge rig, there are two in my club and even the quite daring owners have learned to treat them with respect.

LadyInBed
29-12-12, 21:18
Bilge / Twin, not sure what the difference is, and those with two plates of metal strapped to the bottom!
I just love the flexibility of mine with aerodynamic encapsulated keels :)

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h278/MontyMariner/AFMay067.jpg

lw395
30-12-12, 18:14
....

Under sail (wind 22 knots, close hauled) weather helm, tiller angle
Deep fin 10º
Shallow fin 12º
Bilge keel 20º
Lifting keel 14º

Under sail (wind 22 knots, close hauled) angle of heel
Deep fin 20º
Shallow fin 20-25º
Bilge keel 25-30º
Lifting keel 25º

Under sail (wind 22 knots, close hauled) effective tacking angle
Deep fin 73º
Shallow fin 75º
Bilge keel 80º
Lifting keel 75º

.....[/i]

Seems to me sailing with 20degrees of tiller is just plain wrong, unless the boat is doing something very odd. Sounds like a boat designed for a fin keel with a poor bilge keel adaptation, or a need to change sailplan.
22knots true is probably above the point where the rig is optimised.

I have sailed all three flavours of Sonata, none of them are bad boats IMHO.
Is the Sadler designed by the same bloke? But it's masthead rig?

A1Sailor
30-12-12, 18:35
I have sailed all three flavours of Sonata, none of them are bad boats IMHO.
Is the Sadler designed by the same bloke?

No. See http://www.sonata.org.uk/about/index.php and http://www.mikelucasyachting.co.uk/sadler-starlight-boats/sadler-starlight-history.php

JimC
30-12-12, 18:58
Seems to me sailing with 20degrees of tiller is just plain wrong, unless the boat is doing something very odd. Sounds like a boat designed for a fin keel with a poor bilge keel adaptation, or a need to change sailplan.
22knots true is probably above the point where the rig is optimised.

I believe the comparative tests were performed with Sadler 32s. This was one of the earlier Sadlers and possibly not originally designed with twin keels in mind. On the other hand the twin-keeled version of the later Sadler 26 sails very well.

Simondjuk
30-12-12, 19:05
I just love the flexibility of mine with aerodynamic encapsulated keels :)

The were taking every eventuality into account, obviously! :D

georgeo
31-12-12, 10:25
More than that I think.
http://www.wrightonyachts.com/
http://www.marinesalesuk.co.uk/
http://www.britishhunter.co.uk/
http://www.rm-yachts.com
though not sure if British Hunters or RMs fall under the heading of AWBs

RMs don't !! (IMHO)

dgadee
31-12-12, 10:45
More than that I think.
http://www.wrightonyachts.com/
http://www.marinesalesuk.co.uk/
http://www.britishhunter.co.uk/
http://www.rm-yachts.com
though not sure if British Hunters or RMs fall under the heading of AWBs

Interesting link to what seems to be a PBO article from 2005 from your Wrighton url:

http://www.wrightonyachts.com/wp-content/themes/wrighton/wrighton_data/articles/en_inpraiseoftwinkeels.pdf

Pleiades
31-12-12, 14:00
But what were you doing in Portrush?? :)

Pleiades has been known to snuggle down in Portrush:-
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv137/NikonFM3/PortlfbPleiades.jpg
And of course what she does there mostly is enjoy the vagaries of Portrush weather
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv137/NikonFM3/Portrushrain_zps07110774.jpg
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv137/NikonFM3/Portrushsky.jpg
The Norn Irn Coast is perhaps not what where would expect a bilge keeler to be at home but Portrush Harbour is quite shallow at the inner rows of mooring buoys where a deep fin or long keel would not take kindly to low water springs.
And that little bilge keel Snappy makes the most of the Port
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv137/NikonFM3/snappy9_edited-1-1_zps27a3671c.jpg

Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

JimC
31-12-12, 15:07
Interesting link to what seems to be a PBO article from 2005 from your Wrighton url:

http://www.wrightonyachts.com/wp-content/themes/wrighton/wrighton_data/articles/en_inpraiseoftwinkeels.pdf

Yes, isn't it. The author, Andy Cunningham, was British Hunters' Sales Manager at one time I believe. He refers back to the work of Lord Riverdale who is credited with with inventing the twin-keeled cruising yacht. He was a Sheffield industrialist and his later boats, all twin-keelers called Bluebird, were built of steel. He cruised them all over the world. He met Fred Rayner on the beach at Beaumaris in the early 60s. Rayner was fascinated by Bluebird's keel configuration and went on to found the Westerly company with the Westerly 22 & 25ft twin-keelers.

KellysEye
31-12-12, 15:17
I sailed on the East coast and there wa a preponderence of bilge keels for obvious reasons. I suspect there are few of them in the Solent again for obvious reasons.

I don't understand why people knock AWB's, bilge keels or anything else, boats are designed for different purposes and and people make thier own choice for good reasons.

JimC
31-12-12, 16:49
I sailed on the East coast and there was a preponderence of bilge keels for obvious reasons.

They're much appreciated on the West coast too!

http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q528/jimc954/Strider640jpg640x480_zpsac312c44.jpg


I don't understand why people knock AWB's, bilge keels or anything else, boats are designed for different purposes and and people make thier own choice for good reasons.

+1

interloper
31-12-12, 16:54
...
I don't understand why people knock AWB's, bilge keels or anything else, boats are designed for different purposes and and people make thier own choice for good reasons.

+2

A1Sailor
31-12-12, 17:13
+2

+another. I've previously owned a fin keel Sadler25 and now own a twin keel Sadler25. Strangely enough I noticed when I bought it!:p

CAPTAIN FANTASTIC
31-12-12, 19:53
I don't understand why people knock AWB's, bilge keels or anything else, boats are designed for different purposes and and people make thier own choice for good reasons.

+3

Grumpybear
31-12-12, 19:56
+3

One of the advantages of buying our first boats before discovering the Internet was that we were able to enjoy our sailing in blissful ignorance of the terrible mistakes we were making.

LittleSister
31-12-12, 23:01
I don't understand why people knock AWB's, bilge keels or anything else, boats are designed for different purposes and and people make thier own choice for good reasons.

+1
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(Jet-skis excepted, of course;))


One of the advantages of buying our first boats before discovering the Internet was that we were able to enjoy our sailing in blissful ignorance of the terrible mistakes we were making.

A late bid for the Forum post of the year 2012, methinks!:)

Grumpybear
01-01-13, 11:59
+1
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.
(Jet-skis excepted, of course;))



A late bid for the Forum post of the year 2012, methinks!:)

You are too kind. happy New Year!

KellysEye
02-01-13, 15:35
>Jet-skis excepted, of course

Of course ;-)