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Beau Nidle
07-04-13, 20:09
Hi all

I have a paid of Barbarossa 44.1 winches and would like to replace them with a pair of self-tailers. In a perfect world I would be able to unbolt the old ones and bolt on the new ones but I doubt its going to be that simple!

Does anyone know if the modern harken winches share the same hole patterns and if so how I can find out what size (40st or 46st) would fit the same holes, if any?

I am aware this is quite an expensive upgrade so I want it to be as painless as possible, which preferably means not having to fill or re-drill any holes if there is any way I can avoid it..

Any help much appreciated.

TradewindSailor
07-04-13, 22:14
Hi all

I have a paid of Barbarossa 44.1 winches and would like to replace them with a pair of self-tailers. In a perfect world I would be able to unbolt the old ones and bolt on the new ones but I doubt its going to be that simple!

Does anyone know if the modern harken winches share the same hole patterns and if so how I can find out what size (40st or 46st) would fit the same holes, if any?

I am aware this is quite an expensive upgrade so I want it to be as painless as possible, which preferably means not having to fill or re-drill any holes if there is any way I can avoid it..

Any help much appreciated.

If you look at the winch details here:
http://www.americanriggingsupply.com/Harken_Winches.pdf
you will see that for each winch there is stated a fastener circle measurement, and the size and number of the fasteners (bolts). You should be able to find the same for the Barbarossa winches ..... and then compare.

This should be more help to you than just saying yay or nay to your question.

Personally I'd go for Lewmars ..... but then I loath Harken roller furling so much that it may have clouded my judgement; although they do make great bat cars.

Plevier
07-04-13, 22:23
+1, the Harken winches I have now (admittedly not the current model, 2003) are poor compared with Lewmar I had before.

Beau Nidle
07-04-13, 23:05
I was going with harken as I figured there was a better chance of the hole pattern matching up seeing as they bought Barbarossa.
Can find harken info but nothing on the Barbarossa on the web.

Daydream believer
08-04-13, 07:56
My Harken winches are great, had since 2003 & serviced only 3 times in that period
The ratchet spacing is good. 2 of my 6 winches are smaller Antel ( from an earlier boat)& the ratchets are coarser making them not have such a pleasant feel to use
Never tried Lewmar winches but as all the factory fitted blocks had to be replaced in 3 years from new & having heard problems of Lewmar hatches failing i tend to be wary of lewmar

ghostlymoron
08-04-13, 10:02
Since Harken based their design on Barbarrosa, there's a good chance that their winches will fit existing holes. But the only sure way is to remove one of your existing winches and measure the pcd before you buy new. It's not that difficult to fill the old holes and re-drill.

Debenair
08-04-13, 11:21
IIRC Harken acquired Barbarossa, and in Europe at least Harken winches are made by the old Barbarossa factory in Italy.

I doubt that the hole fixing centres on the Radial range of Harken winches will fit an "old" Barbarossa footprint, but when I changed some Harken 48A for 48STA on a previous boat the mounting holes matched up precisely.

Beau Nidle
08-04-13, 20:02
Since Harken based their design on Barbarrosa, there's a good chance that their winches will fit existing holes. But the only sure way is to remove one of your existing winches and measure the pcd before you buy new. It's not that difficult to fill the old holes and re-drill.

I thought about that but I doubt getting the old ones out will be quite that clean as they are original so it's likely to be a bit of a faff.

I had considered that the old and new would be similar, and the drawings seem to beat that out to a point but there is no direct size equivalent in the current range so I would have to go down to a 40 or up to a 46 and can't find out the size difference.

ghostlymoron
09-04-13, 19:58
I thought about that but I doubt getting the old ones out will be quite that clean as they are original so it's likely to be a bit of a faff.

I had considered that the old and new would be similar, and the drawings seem to beat that out to a point but there is no direct size equivalent in the current range so I would have to go down to a 40 or up to a 46 and can't find out the size difference.
I don't quite understand your last post. It probably won't be that easy removing the old winches (it never is!) but they've got to come off before you can fit the new ones and, once they're off, you can measure either the holes, or the fixing positions. Good luck.
Edit. Info from Harken site

MaterialAll-Chrome
ConfigurationSelf-tailing
Size 40
Speed2
Drum (mm)76 mm
Base (mm)152 mm
Height (mm)176 mm
Weight (kg)6.8 kg
Line entry height (mm)70 mm
Minimum line (mm)8 mm
Maximum line (mm)12 mm
Fastener circle (mm)112 mm
Fasteners (mm)6 FH mm
Number of fasteners5
Gear ratio - 12
Gear ratio - 26
Power ratio - 113.4
Power ratio - 240.1

MaterialAll-Chrome
ConfigurationSelf-tailing
Size 44
Speed2
Drum (mm)92 mm
Base (mm)172 mm
Height (mm)196 mm
Weight (kg)9.5 kg
Line entry height (mm)85 mm
Minimum line (mm)8 mm
Maximum line (mm)14 mm
Fastener circle (mm)128 mm
Fasteners (mm)8 FH mm
Number of fasteners5
Gear ratio - 12.5
Gear ratio - 28
Power ratio - 113.8
Power ratio - 244.2

Both sizes have 5 fasteners, size 40 are 6mm on 112mm pcd, size 44 are 8mm on 128mm pcd. I suspect that your old winches may only have 4 fasteners so it seems likely that you will have to 'fill and drill'. The size you use will probably be governed by the base size that you can fit into your fixing point - 152mm or 172mm respectively. Price is also a consideration, you'll need very deep pockets for either option. As it's not going to be a straight swap, you could look at other makes. Barton are cheaper but I don't think they do self tailers.

Anderson 40 949
Antal 40 659
Lewmar 40 789.95

Beau Nidle
09-04-13, 23:40
I had found the info on the new harkens but not on the old Barbarossa. I was trying to avoid the need to take out the headlinings in the aft cabin and removing the old winches until I had new winches sorted as it is unlikely I will get more than a few days in the uk without rain, so holes in the deck aren't desirable!

Unfortunately it is the Barbarossa information that is difficult to find. Filling and re-drilling is fine but I want to ensure the new holes don't partially overlap the old if possible. The pads are big enough for either size so the 40st would be the preference if it will work.

At the end of the day it's boat hardware so deep pockets are a given but I have been saving up and the current winches are very old.......:o

Tranona
10-04-13, 10:56
Not a big deal to fill and redrill mounting holes. Make up a ply backing pad for underneath, fill the old holes with epoxy and drill the new ones through both the GRP and ply.

Boo2
10-04-13, 11:30
If you look at the winch details here:
http://www.americanriggingsupply.com/Harken_Winches.pdf
you will see that for each winch there is stated a fastener circle measurement, and the size and number of the fasteners (bolts). You should be able to find the same for the Barbarossa winches ..... and then compare.
Note that not all winches (eg Lewmar) have the holes evenly dispresed around the pcd so you cannot assume that just because there are, say, 5 holes on x pcd for both winches that they are compatible. DAMHIKT.

Boo2

Boo2
10-04-13, 11:32
Not a big deal to fill and redrill mounting holes. Make up a ply backing pad for underneath, fill the old holes with epoxy and drill the new ones through both the GRP and ply.

I think Tranona's right - IMHO better to pick the winches you want and invest the time to refit as he suggests.

Boo2