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Vara
10-06-15, 17:43
I suspect that mine is getting clogged up, any body removed and replaced one, any hints and tips.

Have got the relevant manuals and it looks fairly straight forward.

joha
10-06-15, 18:04
It is fairly straightforward. Had mine off a couple of weeks ago, it was clear! If you have a problem with it and need to replace I think Coastal Rides in Dover are doing stainless steel ones for about 125.00.

John

aluijten
10-06-15, 20:20
Make sure you have a new gasket before you start

corinthmistral
10-06-15, 21:57
Have done this several times. As stated, have a new gasket beforehand. Sometimes it can be difficult to seal perfectly; last time I used red hermetite and no problems since after many running hours at high load. Hardest part can be getting exhaust hose off. I use a thin screwdriver inserted and wiggled and used to lever the hose from the manifold all the way round. When replacing I applied a liberal dose of water pump grease and next time it made removal much easier.. Not much more to it. It needs to be torqued up hard. No idea what level. - I just did it as right as I felt I could get away with without risking stripping the bolts. Hope that helps. Good luck.

Vara
11-06-15, 11:40
Thanks all, armed with gasket, spanners and gunge, I'll give it a go.

lampshuk
08-09-15, 23:19
Hi, Vara. I am considering the same job, more as a bit of preventive maintenance than in response to a concern.
On the other hand, I'm a firm believer in not making unnecessary work for myself.
Was it a tricky job, or straightforward in the end? You mentioned that you have the relevant manual: which is that? I did not see this procedure in my PDF of the workshop manual.

Neeves
09-09-15, 06:20
Its an easy task, really requires only common sense rather than a lot of skill. As corinthmistral says, getting the hose off is the most difficult part. It really does not need a manual - its not that difficult, but I'm sure a Volvo service engineer will want to charge oodles. Simply follow the advise above and you will not go wrong.

Joha, I had heard that stainless would give a longer life, any comment, or recommendation.

Jonathan

MM5AHO
09-09-15, 06:34
Not quite same engine, but see my pictorial here..
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?430129-MD2030-changing-an-exhaust-elbow&highlight=exhaust+elbow

main point I learned was to have spare exhaust hose (new) ready, as old might not come out whole!

lampshuk
09-09-15, 07:00
Thanks, Geoff. Excellent posting, many thanks.
I think I'll have go at it this year. No issues yet, but the engine has about 1600 hours, so time for a look, at least.
Fingers crossed I can avoid complications like hose replacement.

PeteCooper
09-09-15, 07:16
From memory when I did this it's straight forward - the only thing that I would say is pay attention to which bolt goes where - there are 4 mounting bolts and two are slightly longer than the others. I put the longer ones in the holes for the shorter ones and then wondered why the two remaining bolts wouldn't engage:o

RichardS
09-09-15, 07:50
Its an easy task, really requires only common sense rather than a lot of skill. As corinthmistral says, getting the hose off is the most difficult part. It really does not need a manual - its not that difficult, but I'm sure a Volvo service engineer will want to charge oodles. Simply follow the advise above and you will not go wrong.

Joha, I had heard that stainless would give a longer life, any comment, or recommendation.

Jonathan

Thread here about stainless steel: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?438877-Exhaust-Elbow-S-steel-grade

Richard

Neeves
09-09-15, 09:06
Thanks Richard.

Jonathan

lampshuk
16-01-16, 18:09
Just reviving this old-ish thread with a question:
I removed the 4 fixing bolts, plus a 5th short one that seems to engage in one of those "locator" jaws that Volvo love.
The elbow, however, is locked solid and doesn't move with a very strong pull - even using the exhaust hose as a lever.
Looking at the base of the elbow, it seems happily painted in position. As though it hasn't been removed since new (1988 boat - 1500 hours on the engine, which isn't much, I guess). Having said that, the exhaust has been cut and joined again, about 8 inches back from the elbow, which I suppose is where you would cut it if you were struggling to get it back on. So I'm puzzled. Maybe it was previously removed, then re-attached using some gunk that is now holding tight...

I'm torn between getting a cold chisel and giving it a whack at the base of the elbow to persuade it to let go, and leaving well enough alone, since the engine seems to run quite happily.

What are the opinions? Could I damage the elbow by bashing it? Is it worth trying heat on the elbow?

Slowtack
16-01-16, 18:54
Probably just adhesion at the gasket and possibly some carbon build up maybe connecting the elbow to the block. I would remove, inspect and clean at the water injection points. Mine was completely blocked on one side.

Len Ingalls
16-01-16, 20:09
Possible source of VP 2003 SS Exhaust ell.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331518131659?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Stork_III
16-01-16, 20:24
Exactly what hammers are mode for. :encouragement:

VicS
16-01-16, 20:44
Exactly what hammers are mode for. :encouragement:

but cushioned with a block of wood and close to the joint with the head

Stork_III
17-01-16, 00:18
but cushioned with a block of wood and close to the joint with the head

Wimp. ;)

Gladys
17-01-16, 12:56
I love my rubber hammer, which really allows you to take out your frustrations on such things as you can lay about them at full welly without fear of damage.

Daydream believer
17-01-16, 13:12
I would take care with a hammer as you may crack the casting on the engine flange. When I removed my elbow I found the carbon deposit in the water connection be smaller than a pencil. ( explains the poor water flow out the exhaust) I tride chipping a piece of the deposit & immediately cracked a piece of the cast.
That suggests a poor quality cast iron & if the same happens with the flange then you are in for deep trouble
I would suggest gently chipping with a plastic handled screwdriver in the gasket joint & moving gradually around the joint.
But first check with a mirror to see that all bolts are off , including the washers which may be gripping the studs.
I suppose another option might me to put a piece of timber in the exhaust bend & just lever up & down so you do not have to tap it too hard

As for exhaust hose, I found mine to have become a little " burned" so i changed that as well

lampshuk
17-01-16, 22:04
Thanks, all, for advice and encouragement. A couple of whacks with a lump hammer and a wooden block and it came off. So, perhaps a bit wimpy for Storky, but good enough and nothing broken yet. Slight congestion of the main chamber, as well as in the injection tube, so probably worth doing but I doubt it will improve the performance much. I will have a poke around and maybe leave it to soak in HCL overnight.

Less straightforward, though, there was Lots of gunk on the block face - looked like some liquid gasket on top of the solid one. It was blocking up a small channel on the side of the main chamber. Not sure if that is supposed to be open or not. I have some photos and will post, Would appreciate advice.

Len Ingalls
17-01-16, 23:09
This is what a new SS ell for VP 2003 looks like.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331518131659?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

lampshuk
18-01-16, 07:36
Very interesting. Thanks, Len.
Those 3 rounded rectangular channels either side of the main one were blocked by the gasket-goup stuff (actually it looks like araldite, but I hope it'll be easier to remove).

What are those channels for?

I'd like to post a picture but I seem to have "exceeded my quota" in some mysterious way. The picture is only 95kb, so I'm puzzled by that. Will check into it.

(added below)
Hmm. even blocks me adding a 25kb JPG file. Definitely something screwy there.
Maybe a link to the photos? https://goo.gl/photos/3pyqoLwsrditEZTN7

Len Ingalls
18-01-16, 09:44
Very interesting. Thanks, Len.
Those 3 rounded rectangular channels either side of the main one were blocked by the gasket-goup stuff (actually it looks like araldite, but I hope it'll be easier to remove).

What are those channels for?

I'd like to post a picture but I seem to have "exceeded my quota" in some mysterious way. The picture is only 95kb, so I'm puzzled by that. Will check into it.

(added below)
Hmm. even blocks me adding a 25kb JPG file. Definitely something screwy there.
Maybe a link to the photos? https://goo.gl/photos/3pyqoLwsrditEZTN7

Link to shop manual:

http://www.bluemoment.com/manuals/volvo_penta_2002_worksh.pdf

The passage ways are only in the ell & do not continue into the cyl. head.They are cooling water jackets for ell only & use the same water that gets injected into the exhaust hose. You are probably seeing built up corrosion on the cyl head from this jacket water that just contacts the head thru the rectangular holes in gasket. Scrape the face off smooth & just use a new gasket without sealant . I keep a spare gasket aboard as it is a waste of time trying to get an old one tight after eng. has run for more than 10 hrs or so. These elbows tend to weep a bit at times-either from the gasket or the donut rubber rings used at the inlet copper pipe or one of the diamond shaped blocked off plates on sides of ell. Replace these rubbers & scrape their sockets clean. Use a bit of Vaseline or similar on the new rubbers. In fact,these engines are notorious for weeps at these copper pipe rubber donut connections,so I bought several of each size.If you have a leak,just clean the socket & pipe & use a new donut.The old ones get hard after a while. I will provide a link to VP 2003 parts book also. One more thing-my elbow attaching bolts were quite corroded about halfway along their length so I replaced them with SS equivalents. Wouldn't hurt if they were 5mm or so longer than originals.I don't believe there would be any problem if the bolt ends protruded thru the tapped holes in cyl head.I don't think there is anything but open space below them. Reason I suggest this is that on mine one of the bolts feels a bit mushy when I torqued it-as if the threads in the head were about done for. Be very careful when tightening these 4 bolts for that reason-not a lot of threads are used. Tighten the bolts criss cross as you would a cyl head-drawing the ell down square to cyl head .

Cleaning scale out of elbow passages-I just used a screwdriver & hammer with ell held in a vise & chipped it out. Acid bath sounds ok to me-perhaps an auto radiator shop can do that. A new SS elbow would be the ultimate cure & less $$ than VP cast iron replacement. Saving my pennies for this ;)
I have had my 2003 out & overhauled everything except pistons,rings & bearings myself,so if I can help let me know.

Cheers/ Len

Len Ingalls
18-01-16, 09:50
Link to exploded parts manual-VP 2000 series:

http://www.marinepartseurope.com/en/volvo-penta-cat-7726000.aspx

Len Ingalls
18-01-16, 09:51
Link to VP2000 series owner manual:

http://www.bluemoment.com/manuals/volvo_penta_2002_owner.pdf

Len Ingalls
18-01-16, 09:53
Link to VP Dash Panel with theory of alarm lights:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s483ek6t42rqhmq/INSTRUMENT%20PANEL12V.doc?dl=0

RichardS
18-01-16, 09:55
Wow - that's a really complicated casting compared to the usual concentric-pipe-with-a-flange type of elbow.

What connects to the three fittings either side of the elbow? Is that a triple injection water feed and do those rounded rectangular channels in the elbow connect through into the injection points, if that ls what they are.

If the rectangular holes do connect through to the injection points then they should be unblocked at the manifold as they appear to be some kind of manifold cooling device. If they do not go through to the injection points but are dead-ends then they are not circulational so probably not very important. When you get the new manifold gasket you will soon see whether it is designed to keep the holes blocked or not.

Richard

Overlapped posts and Len has answered all those questions - ports connect through to injection point so an active manfold cooling device. First time I've ever seen active manifold cooling although I'm not a marine expert!

lampshuk
18-01-16, 10:44
Thanks, Len and others. Len, your answer and other posts are particularly helpful.

Interesting point about the threads on the bolts. No corrosion on mine, but they were not tightly secured - which may explain the gunk/glue. Perhaps the previous owner (or maybe even before him) felt the threads were stripping (or even worse, had stripped) and only part-tightened the bolts, so the glue was a backup. Ooer. That's horribly plausible.

Your idea of extending the bolts - maybe even through-bolting them to a nut on the far side, if the holes go that far - sounds like a sensible one. I'll clean everything up first, then see what the options are. The gasket itself is quite thick, so maybe a liquid gasket would give an extra couple of turns of thread. Of course, being careful not to block the manifold cooler holes.

One question: the surface of the gasket seems different on one side compared to the other. Does it matter which way up it goes? My inclination is to put it on with the writing uppermost.

(and finally - just a quick check to see if the pictures are visible here: https://goo.gl/photos/3pyqoLwsrditEZTN7 - you can see that the rectangular holes are blocked with a glue-like substance. It's not rust or other deposit)

Thanks, all.

Martin.

jonrarit
18-01-16, 13:56
I did mine this winter. It took 3 days of soaking in patio cleaner before I cold eventually poke the channels clear with a bent coat hanger.

Note it wouldnt have last 4 days soaking .... the cleaner started eating away at the recesses for the rubber seals. Caught it just in time but having seen the link for SS one from the states it's a no brainer...just ordered one

JR

DJE
18-01-16, 14:19
....Hardest part can be getting exhaust hose off. I use a thin screwdriver inserted and wiggled and used to lever the hose from the manifold all the way round.....
Get one of these for getting hoses off couplings:

http://item.shopping.c.yimg.jp/i/l/hirochi2_sga173br_1

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?search=true&item_ID=646478&PartNo=SGA173BR&group_id=681665&supersede=&store=uk&tool=all

lampshuk
18-01-16, 14:53
Ooh. A hemmorhoid chisel. Lovely!

Seriously: the link to snap-on-tools site does not resolve. What is it?

lampshuk
18-01-16, 14:55
Rubber seals?

DJE
18-01-16, 16:16
Ooh. A hemmorhoid chisel. Lovely!

Seriously: the link to snap-on-tools site does not resolve. What is it?

Can't see what's wrong with the link but the description is:- Pick, Radiator Hose, Soft Grip, 10.30" Stock#: SGA173BR

lampshuk
18-01-16, 16:49
Thanks. That link works for me now, too (previously, I got an error report from the Snap-on website). ebay search for "hose pick" also works.

lampshuk
19-01-16, 00:50
I've left the elbow marinading in 23%HCl (standard strength from SuperU and other French supermarkets). It's fizzing gently.

Having scraped off the gunge I can see that the casing around one of the internal cooling channels is quite badly eroded, which would probably lead to it leaking to the outside of the elbow if it weren't blocked in some way. Which probably explains the gunge.
Maybe some plastic padding "metal" would do an equivalent or better job, and I could target it a bit better than the previous attempt.

That SS Elbow is looking quite attractive right now, if a little pricey.

I'll post some pictures in the morning when the fizzing has stopped.

Len Ingalls
19-01-16, 03:52
Thanks, Len and others. Len, your answer and other posts are particularly helpful.

Interesting point about the threads on the bolts. No corrosion on mine, but they were not tightly secured - which may explain the gunk/glue. Perhaps the previous owner (or maybe even before him) felt the threads were stripping (or even worse, had stripped) and only part-tightened the bolts, so the glue was a backup. Ooer. That's horribly plausible.

Your idea of extending the bolts - maybe even through-bolting them to a nut on the far side, if the holes go that far - sounds like a sensible one. I'll clean everything up first, then see what the options are. The gasket itself is quite thick, so maybe a liquid gasket would give an extra couple of turns of thread. Of course, being careful not to block the manifold cooler holes.

One question: the surface of the gasket seems different on one side compared to the other. Does it matter which way up it goes? My inclination is to put it on with the writing uppermost.

(and finally - just a quick check to see if the pictures are visible here: https://goo.gl/photos/3pyqoLwsrditEZTN7 - you can see that the rectangular holes are blocked with a glue-like substance. It's not rust or other deposit)

Thanks, all.

Martin.

Great pics! It helps to see what you are up against.

As you can see from the shop manual pics,the rectangular holes do not go thru the manifold. I can see "bumps" of rust on your manifold mating surface caused by years of water lying there.That is normal-just scrape them off as best you can. The object is to get as flat a surface as possible on the manifold so that the gasket will seal where it is supposed to seal . The gasket has the rectangular holes in it & the remaining "bumps" will just set up into the gasket holes & cause no problem as long as they don't stick up too far.
The elbow does have these passages open to allow cooling water to surround the central exhaust hole.They lead to the injection hole on the outlet side of the hump. These passages need to be cleaned out fairly well & the acid bath may do it.

Cheers/ Len

Neeves
19-01-16, 04:05
We have found that you can only acid wash the elbow once. The build up is calcium, in some form (but soluble in acid), and carbon (which is why its black). Unfortunately rust or iron oxide also dissolves in acid and as the elbows corrode or rust the simple technique of removing the clogging also removes some of the oxide, leaving a fresh surface to rust. I think the steel is also soluble, slowly, in acid so the act of cleaning need to be done with caution - it might not work (or it works to well) and you end up with a hole in elbow, been there, done that!

Stainless seems the way to go, especially if you intend keeping the yacht. I have heard tell that stainless does not result in the build-up or clogging in the first place - but I actually do not know of anyone with one to verify this.

Jonathan

jonrarit
19-01-16, 08:44
I have heard tell that stainless does not result in the build-up or clogging in the first place - but I actually do not know of anyone with one to verify this.Jonathan

If you hang around long enough Jonathan, I'll be able to tell you having just ordered a SS one. In the grand scheme of things I didnt consider it to be that expensive especially given the peace of mind it will give.

JR

Neeves
19-01-16, 09:07
If you hang around long enough Jonathan, I'll be able to tell you having just ordered a SS one. In the grand scheme of things I didnt consider it to be that expensive especially given the peace of mind it will give.

JR

I have no plans to go anywhere, or not out of contact of YBW - though the best laid plans of :)

If its as good as suggested it will last for ever!

Good luck

Jonathan

Len Ingalls
19-01-16, 14:05
We have found that you can only acid wash the elbow once. The build up is calcium, in some form (but soluble in acid), and carbon (which is why its black). Unfortunately rust or iron oxide also dissolves in acid and as the elbows corrode or rust the simple technique of removing the clogging also removes some of the oxide, leaving a fresh surface to rust. I think the steel is also soluble, slowly, in acid so the act of cleaning need to be done with caution - it might not work (or it works to well) and you end up with a hole in elbow, been there, done that!

Stainless seems the way to go, especially if you intend keeping the yacht. I have heard tell that stainless does not result in the build-up or clogging in the first place - but I actually do not know of anyone with one to verify this.

Jonathan

I think the advantage of SS is that it shouldn't corrode/rust . The build up in exhaust ells is a combination of rust & lime scale.
You may still get some mineral scale build up but no amount of rust flakes mixed with it,meaning a lot longer time before significant blockage occurs. This is personal opinion only-it will be awhile before I have actual results.

Cheers/ Len:)

RichardS
19-01-16, 14:39
I think the advantage of SS is that it shouldn't corrode/rust . The build up in exhaust ells is a combination of rust & lime scale.
You may still get some mineral scale build up but no amount of rust flakes mixed with it,meaning a lot longer time before significant blockage occurs. This is personal opinion only-it will be awhile before I have actual results.

Cheers/ Len:)

I'm not sure if that is always the case. My SS Yanmar elbows are both totally clear after 3000-odd hours of use. However, I'm sure we have had forumites on here with SS Yanmar elbows who have found them severly congested.

I suspect that it's more to do with engine usage patterns and techniques rather that the elbow material but I'm open-minded either way.

Richard

Neeves
19-01-16, 22:24
Calcium build up is one of the most common issues on this forum, it occurs (the threads) with depressingly regularity. Depressing - only because there seems to be no solution. I find it odd that the actual mechanism has not been defined, at all, such that owners can try to reduce the problem.

I had this idea at the back of my mind that the calcium build up did not occur on stainless stee., that it was thus a function of the steel casting - but I really don't know.

Jonathan

lampshuk
19-01-16, 23:18
Well, I washed out the acid this morning, and had a good old scrape around inside the elbow tonight. Unfortunately I couldn't wash it properly, since our outdoor tap has frozen up and I don't think I would be forgiven for rinsing out all that sooty gubbins in the kitchen sink.

The last 3 photos here show the grisly tale: https://goo.gl/photos/3pyqoLwsrditEZTN7

The side-channels are now open, at least. They were not only blocked by the resinous glue (I think) from the previous service, but clolgged by internal deposits. Worryingly, as I was scraping them out with an old chisel, the metal around the edge of the channel seemed rather soft. So much so that at first I assumed I was just scraping away the deposit, but the scraping just seemed too extensive, and the dust coming off was magnetic, so I stopped. Could HCL do that to iron? Ooer. Better check the stainless steel sink. No, wait, that's hydrofluoric acid, isn't it?

The 3rd from last picture shows the erosion around one of the side channels (not my efforts, it was like that when I found it yer honner). You can see the amount of light between the edge of the rule and the flat edge of the elbow.

I will also need to buy about 8 inches of exhaust hose. Anybody got a scrap at the bottom of their spares box?

That S/S elbow is looking more attractive by the minute

Len Ingalls
20-01-16, 13:27
Well, I washed out the acid this morning, and had a good old scrape around inside the elbow tonight. Unfortunately I couldn't wash it properly, since our outdoor tap has frozen up and I don't think I would be forgiven for rinsing out all that sooty gubbins in the kitchen sink.

The last 3 photos here show the grisly tale: https://goo.gl/photos/3pyqoLwsrditEZTN7

The side-channels are now open, at least. They were not only blocked by the resinous glue (I think) from the previous service, but clolgged by internal deposits. Worryingly, as I was scraping them out with an old chisel, the metal around the edge of the channel seemed rather soft. So much so that at first I assumed I was just scraping away the deposit, but the scraping just seemed too extensive, and the dust coming off was magnetic, so I stopped. Could HCL do that to iron? Ooer. Better check the stainless steel sink. No, wait, that's hydrofluoric acid, isn't it?

The 3rd from last picture shows the erosion around one of the side channels (not my efforts, it was like that when I found it yer honner). You can see the amount of light between the edge of the rule and the flat edge of the elbow.

I will also need to buy about 8 inches of exhaust hose. Anybody got a scrap at the bottom of their spares box?

That S/S elbow is looking more attractive by the minute

One side passage is eaten out to the exterior of elbow at the flange face & will leak-probably why PO had it gooped up with sealant. The other side passage is well on it's way to the same problem.
Cheap? & dirty fix may be to have a machine shop plane enough metal off that face to get down to a flat surface all round. Not sure how thick the flange face is. Your original bolts will be a bit long but that could be a good thing as I previously posted.
I'm not recommending this as a "proper" fix,but may get u by for a couple of yrs. A new elbow is the proper fix.
Before you do this,you can check for other leaks by plugging the water injection slot where it meets the exh. gases. Pour Methyl Hydrate(wood alky) into the oblong holes at flange & see if there are any leaks from water jacket to exhaust gas passage.Methyl is a good test fluid as it is thinner than water & causes cracks to expand for some reason.

I note that the inlet water spigot appears to be a short pipe welded to elbow.The original VP copper pipe,crowfoot clamp & rubber ring is no longer there. That is the solution to the cursed weeping VP method,but a new elbow will be machined for the old VP set up. This means you will have to have a spigot welded to new ell or buy a short section of VP copper pipe,crowfoot,rubber & bolt from VP-expensive!-or locate used parts. Your choice.

Cheers/ Len

Len Ingalls
20-01-16, 14:28
Wow - that's a really complicated casting compared to the usual concentric-pipe-with-a-flange type of elbow.

What connects to the three fittings either side of the elbow? Is that a triple injection water feed and do those rounded rectangular channels in the elbow connect through into the injection points, if that ls what they are.

If the rectangular holes do connect through to the injection points then they should be unblocked at the manifold as they appear to be some kind of manifold cooling device. If they do not go through to the injection points but are dead-ends then they are not circulational so probably not very important. When you get the new manifold gasket you will soon see whether it is designed to keep the holes blocked or not.

Richard

Overlapped posts and Len has answered all those questions - ports connect through to injection point so an active manfold cooling device. First time I've ever seen active manifold cooling although I'm not a marine expert!

Richard & other interested members

The reason that the VP 2000 series exhaust elbow gasket has the oblong cooling passages cut out is,I believe, purely production economics.
This same gasket is used on extended elbows for engines mounted below waterline,or,at least lower in vessel. A 4" spacer block is inserted between elbow & flange surface of manifold. In this situation,raw cooling water is wanted in the complete elbow & spacer jackets.
But in no case is raw water ever circulated down thru manifold flange to the manifold itself.The oblong passages are not cut thru the manifold flange.

The manifold is part of the cyl head casting(not bolted on) & is cooled by the "fresh water/antifreeze mix that is circulated thru the engine & block. Even in the case of a raw water cooled VP2000 series,the cyl head/manifold water does not pass up thru the exhaust flange.

In both cases,raw cooling water enters the elbow assy. thru a pipe attached to the fwd side of exhaust ell & fed by a copper pipe or rubber hose with raw water.

The blocked off passages on the sides of the elbow are used for optional equipment,SOLAS versions & by the turbo charged VP 2003.
5550655507

Cheers/ Len

lampshuk
20-01-16, 17:02
Richard & other interested members

...
But in no case is raw water ever circulated down thru manifold flange to the manifold itself.The oblong passages are not cut thru the manifold flange.

The manifold is part of the cyl head casting(not bolted on) & is cooled by the "fresh water/antifreeze mix that is circulated thru the engine & block. Even in the case of a raw water cooled VP2000 series,the cyl head/manifold water does not pass up thru the exhaust flange.
...
5550655507

Cheers/ Len

Thanks, Len. From what you're saying it sounds like it's quite important that the rectangular channels are sealed from the main exhaust chamber in the elbow, to avoid the water circulating through the head itself becoming contaminated (I have a Martec aftermarket fresh-water cooling system fitted). So in my case I either need to clean up the channels so they seal properly, or goop them back up altogether. Since the engine was functioning quite well before I embarked on this project, the gooping option sounds like the path-of-least-resistance.

And thanks for the tip about the modified injection point.

Sigh.

The unintended consequences of preventive maintenance....

Len Ingalls
20-01-16, 19:49
You don't ever want water in the exhaust passage until it is injected at a point below the exhaust valves. Otherwise some of it will run backwards thru the exh. valves & into the cylinders causing corrosion & waterlock.

If you must patch elbow flange for now, I suggest using one of the heat resistant "metal" epoxies,rather than any kind of sealant. This area gets hot.

You really need a new elbow soon. If water gets into a cylinder it will not compress & you end up with a smashed piston,etc.

Cheers/ Len

Stork_III
20-01-16, 19:53
Well, I washed out the acid this morning, and had a good old scrape around inside the elbow tonight. Unfortunately I couldn't wash it properly, since our outdoor tap has frozen up and I don't think I would be forgiven for rinsing out all that sooty gubbins in the kitchen sink.

The last 3 photos here show the grisly tale: https://goo.gl/photos/3pyqoLwsrditEZTN7

The side-channels are now open, at least. They were not only blocked by the resinous glue (I think) from the previous service, but clolgged by internal deposits. Worryingly, as I was scraping them out with an old chisel, the metal around the edge of the channel seemed rather soft. So much so that at first I assumed I was just scraping away the deposit, but the scraping just seemed too extensive, and the dust coming off was magnetic, so I stopped. Could HCL do that to iron? Ooer. Better check the stainless steel sink. No, wait, that's hydrofluoric acid, isn't it?

The 3rd from last picture shows the erosion around one of the side channels (not my efforts, it was like that when I found it yer honner). You can see the amount of light between the edge of the rule and the flat edge of the elbow.

I will also need to buy about 8 inches of exhaust hose. Anybody got a scrap at the bottom of their spares box?

That S/S elbow is looking more attractive by the minute

HCl will turn your stainless sink black, reaction with Chromium in the steel, I think. Stainless and hot sea water do not necessarily go together well. http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=100

lampshuk
20-01-16, 22:03
OK, something doesn't quite add up.
With help from my son, I had a closer look at the channels in the elbow. The raw water injection point IS connected to the rectangular channels. I poured water down the raw water injection point, blocking up the exhaust outlet, and eventually the water came out of the rectangular channels. All 3 of them.
You can see the torch shining through from the injection inlet to the central rectangular channel in the last photo here: https://goo.gl/photos/3pyqoLwsrditEZTN7

So now I'm confused. If these rectangular channels connect to the cooling in the engine head, I would be getting raw water in the cooling.
...
Doh! Penny drops!
...
The "conversion" to fresh water cooling must involve blocking the circulation of raw water from the injection point back into the head, since that would ruin the whole point of having fresh water cooling in the first place.
So, in fact, I have to block the rectangular holes, or I will bu**er the cooling system.
Does that sound right, Len? I think that's different to your earlier posting (unless I misunderstood) but it's the only thing that makes sense to me, looking at the way it's all laid out.
Would I be better off making a blank gasket (and cutting a hole for the exhaust, obviously), rather than gooping it up?

Len Ingalls
21-01-16, 11:34
OK, something doesn't quite add up.
With help from my son, I had a closer look at the channels in the elbow. The raw water injection point IS connected to the rectangular channels. I poured water down the raw water injection point, blocking up the exhaust outlet, and eventually the water came out of the rectangular channels. All 3 of them.
You can see the torch shining through from the injection inlet to the central rectangular channel in the last photo here: https://goo.gl/photos/3pyqoLwsrditEZTN7

So now I'm confused. If these rectangular channels connect to the cooling in the engine head, I would be getting raw water in the cooling.
...
Doh! Penny drops!
...
The "conversion" to fresh water cooling must involve blocking the circulation of raw water from the injection point back into the head, since that would ruin the whole point of having fresh water cooling in the first place.
So, in fact, I have to block the rectangular holes, or I will bu**er the cooling system.
Does that sound right, Len? I think that's different to your earlier posting (unless I misunderstood) but it's the only thing that makes sense to me, looking at the way it's all laid out.
Would I be better off making a blank gasket (and cutting a hole for the exhaust, obviously), rather than gooping it up?

You have been working too hard :)

In both raw & fresh cooled engines,the only water in the elbow is the raw water injected into that welded spigot,filling the oblong jackets & exiting into the exhaust at the water outlet hole near the exhaust hose. The outlet I speak of is that hole that you see light shining thru.
Fresh water is never sent thru the elbow in either raw or fresh cooled versions.
Use the gasket as it comes.The raw jacket water can't get back into the manifold since it can't pass thru the solid metal of the manifold flange.
Ignore the oblong holes in gasket.They aren't required at the manifold flange that is true. But this same gasket could be used if you had the 4" riser block option(which you don't). VP just use same gasket for 2 different places.

Don't feel bad about taking the elbow apart for maintenance. It wouldn't have lasted much longer the way it was.Better to find these things at your convenience than to have it break while offshore. That is the purpose of maintenance:)

Cheers/ Len

lampshuk
21-01-16, 16:09
OK. Thanks, Len!
I have been working on the assumption that the rectangular holes in the elbow match up with similar channels in the engine block where the elbow attaches, leading me to think that the water from the elbow channels also circulated around at least the exhaust outlet stage. Looking back at my original photos of the engine I can't tell one way or the other. I didn't have time to clean that surface up before I came away.
Thanks for your patience! It beats me how duffers like me kept their boats working before the internet and web forums. I suppose they relied on more professional help, or just found out the hard/expensive way.

Len Ingalls
21-01-16, 21:19
OK. Thanks, Len!
I have been working on the assumption that the rectangular holes in the elbow match up with similar channels in the engine block where the elbow attaches, leading me to think that the water from the elbow channels also circulated around at least the exhaust outlet stage. Looking back at my original photos of the engine I can't tell one way or the other. I didn't have time to clean that surface up before I came away.
Thanks for your patience! It beats me how duffers like me kept their boats working before the internet and web forums. I suppose they relied on more professional help, or just found out the hard/expensive way.

That is the great thing about forums & the net. We can all benefit from each others sometimes hard learned experience.
Pay it forward & best of luck.
Cheers/ Len

RIBW
23-01-16, 10:13
In both raw & fresh cooled engines,the only water in the elbow is the raw water injected into that welded spigot,.......Cheers/ Len

Len,
There have been many postings on the subject of cooling 2000 series engines and, taken with a very poor description in the manuals, I have never seen a final clear undisputed description of how the cooling works. I am far from being knowledgeable about engines so, for my own use, I try to distil the information available and do a little write-up for my own benefit. (I see one of these, on the Instrument Panel, escaped to Dropbox in your #27 posting). I have done a write up on the cooling based on the following gleanings.

Referring only to a raw water cooled engine, I had understood that there are two routes into the elbow:-
A permanent flow through Pipe #8 on the diagram
http://www.marinepartseurope.com/en/volvo-penta-explodedview-7726000-26-11620.aspx
This flow is routed through the engine on a perforated end-to-end tube and provides exhaust cooling before the thermostat opens.
The second input comes eventually from the open thermostat through what this posting refers to as the 'welded spigot'.

It would be good to hear your views.

Cheers
Bob

lampshuk
23-01-16, 18:56
Thanks for your point, Bob. Like you, I am struggling to make sense of this.

I have no Pipe number 8 installed, nor do I have the extension block 29 (marked obsolete).
Oddly enough, I do have a random spare part that looks like pipe number 8. but it's just sculling around in the bottom of a tuopperware box that was on the boat when I got her.

So on my engine, the only source of water going in to the exhaust is the spigot. This usually appears in the cooling water within 10-15 seconds of startup, so is it accurate to say that it's controlled by the thermostat? I can see the exhaust gases coming up to temp before the main engine block does.

Today I got down to the boat and cleaned up the block side of the connection. You can see the before and after photos here: (the last 2) https://goo.gl/photos/3pyqoLwsrditEZTN7

What's interesting is that although the 3 channels that would correspond with the 3 in the elbow exist, they have been blocked with something that isn't quite metal. You can't really see from the photos, but I was easily able to gouge out holes in them using a wood chisel. I stopped rather quickly, but there definitely have been channels there. So where do they go? Wherever it is, if not blocked, it's going to get raw water pumped down it, since those channels connect with the elbow, which squirts raw water through the elbow (in my case, via the spigot).

Right now my main concern is to reattach the elbow in such a way that it doesn't leak exhaust gas into the cabin, nor cooling water into the exhaust chamber. I have been ferreting around looking for a machine shop in the Andover area. Found one that charges only 45 per hour...perhaps I'll stick with the goop...sometimes there's a reason that the PO did the things he/she did...

(on a not-unrelated topic, should I be worried that another discovery in the same tupperware box as Pipe8 is a brand new "anti-siphon device", complete with fitting instructions. Is that important?)

Len Ingalls
23-01-16, 21:55
Len,
There have been many postings on the subject of cooling 2000 series engines and, taken with a very poor description in the manuals, I have never seen a final clear undisputed description of how the cooling works. I am far from being knowledgeable about engines so, for my own use, I try to distil the information available and do a little write-up for my own benefit. (I see one of these, on the Instrument Panel, escaped to Dropbox in your #27 posting). I have done a write up on the cooling based on the following gleanings.

Referring only to a raw water cooled engine, I had understood that there are two routes into the elbow:-
A permanent flow through Pipe #8 on the diagram
http://www.marinepartseurope.com/en/volvo-penta-explodedview-7726000-26-11620.aspx
This flow is routed through the engine on a perforated end-to-end tube and provides exhaust cooling before the thermostat opens.
The second input comes eventually from the open thermostat through what this posting refers to as the 'welded spigot'.

It would be good to hear your views.

Cheers
Bob

Hi Bob
You are 100% correct on the raw water version. RW cooled have the additional pipe # 8 from rear of block(perforated tube outlet) to another rubber ring fitting on the port side of the elbow. As you say,this path supplies raw water cooling during engine warm up on the RW cooled version.
This path is not used on a fresh cooled version since raw water does not pass thru the thermostat. RW comes out of the RW pump as soon as engine is started & goes directly via the anti-siphon & thru the RW section of the external heat exchanger,out of the heat exchanger & into the "spigot" or rubber ring fitting in elbow front,thru the jackets of elbow & into the exhaust gas via an "injection hole" near the elbow outlet/exhaust hose joint.
What I meant & said very poorly is that there is never any fresh water used in the elbow. It is cooled only by raw water in all versions regardless of the routes that the raw water takes to get to elbow cooling jackets & injection to exhaust gas.
Thanks for pointing this out.
lampshuk was concerned about possible need to open the elbow cooling jacket oblong holes thru the flange on manifold. They are never open in any version as you would have RW pouring into manifold & in thru exhaust valves.
In my printed parts manual there are near 50 pages covering the various 2001,2002 & 2003(Turbo & non Turbo) -in Raw Cooled,Fresh cooled, SOLAS versions with hot & water cooled exhaust - no wonder there is no simple description of 2000 series cooling!!:)
Keep this in mind when you look at online parts manuals for these engines & not just the cooling system. Check & read carefully the heading at top of parts page to make sure it is the pics for your engine.
I bought the paper version 8 yrs ago as I couldn't make sense of the online version. Not that online is incorrect or missing anything-everything appears to be there-but I just couldn't follow piping especially & some other things.

Here is another Dropbox link that shows cooling flows.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ei0ui9tp6fgpkxl/VP%202003%20Cooling%20%26%20Ext%20Heater%20Sys.pdf ?dl=0

Cheers/ Len:)

Len Ingalls
24-01-16, 05:44
Thanks for your point, Bob. Like you, I am struggling to make sense of this.

I have no Pipe number 8 installed, nor do I have the extension block 29 (marked obsolete).
Oddly enough, I do have a random spare part that looks like pipe number 8. but it's just sculling around in the bottom of a tuopperware box that was on the boat when I got her.

So on my engine, the only source of water going in to the exhaust is the spigot. This usually appears in the cooling water within 10-15 seconds of startup, so is it accurate to say that it's controlled by the thermostat? I can see the exhaust gases coming up to temp before the main engine block does.

Today I got down to the boat and cleaned up the block side of the connection. You can see the before and after photos here: (the last 2) https://goo.gl/photos/3pyqoLwsrditEZTN7

What's interesting is that although the 3 channels that would correspond with the 3 in the elbow exist, they have been blocked with something that isn't quite metal. You can't really see from the photos, but I was easily able to gouge out holes in them using a wood chisel. I stopped rather quickly, but there definitely have been channels there. So where do they go? Wherever it is, if not blocked, it's going to get raw water pumped down it, since those channels connect with the elbow, which squirts raw water through the elbow (in my case, via the spigot).

Right now my main concern is to reattach the elbow in such a way that it doesn't leak exhaust gas into the cabin, nor cooling water into the exhaust chamber. I have been ferreting around looking for a machine shop in the Andover area. Found one that charges only 45 per hour...perhaps I'll stick with the goop...sometimes there's a reason that the PO did the things he/she did...

(on a not-unrelated topic, should I be worried that another discovery in the same tupperware box as Pipe8 is a brand new "anti-siphon device", complete with fitting instructions. Is that important?)

Hi again
Your engine is fresh water cooled isn't it? You have a bronze RW pump on lower port front & a fresh water circulator pump under the alternator on the stbd front of engine plus you have a heat exchanger.

I'm willing to bet that the short pipe found in Tupperware box is the original copper tube that used to go where the welded spigot is now. A fresh water cooled eng. doesn't have pipe # 8 .

Anti siphon valve is important. If you leave your intake seacock open,seawater could siphon from seacock thru RW pump,heat exchanger & elbow & fill muffler. Water could back up thru exhaust injection hole in elbow & over the hump & into the manifold & exh. valves. The siphon break is located a foot or more above the waterline & if any suction occurs in the elbow,etc. due to siphon flow,a small port on anti siphon valve opens & allows air into the RW circuit thereby stopping any siphoning.
Check that this little vent valve is working by sucking on one port of anti siphon valve & finger blocking the other port. Vent port should open when you suck & close when you blow.

The oblong "dents" in the manifold flange were never supposed to go all the way thru the flange & into manifold/cyl. head. On a new engine,the manifold flange is flat & the only holes are the center exhaust & the 4 tapped bolt holes.
Over time,water from the matching oblong elbow holes lies on the manifold flange & rusts the oblong depressions you are seeing.
Put your finger in the center exhaust hole & feel beneath each oblong depression. There should not be any indication that these holes ever went all the way thru.
Dig the loose rust out of the depressions with a screwdriver.You should find solid cast iron.
If they are rusted thru,or PO punched them thru for some wrong reason,they must be blocked off.
If that is the case,I would not trust any kind of sealant myself. I would make a 1/8" (3mm?) plate with the 4 bolt holes & center exh. hole. Use 2 gaskets. One gskt on top of plate & one under it. Longer elbow bolts would be needed.

Cheers/ Len

lampshuk
24-01-16, 22:29
Thanks, Len. That Dropbox doc is very clear. It shows the blocking of the Pipe 8 vents.
My FW cooler is a Martec aftermarket one, so my layout is a bit different. RW pump is lower port side front ( that should be the same, I suppose), FW pump is rear starboard side, under the heat exchanger.

Thanks for the advice on the siphon valve. I've been wondering about that for a while. Sounds like I should get on with it.

For completeness, the cleaned-up elbow is photographed here https://goo.gl/photos/3pyqoLwsrditEZTN7
(last 2 pics). I was surprised how tough the encrusted deposits were. I ended up filing away at the narrow point to get it to open a bit.

Thanks, all, for your helpful advice. I will update the thread when I get Drifter back in the water and fire her up.

Len Ingalls
24-01-16, 23:36
Sounds good!!

Cheers/ Len

Len Ingalls
27-01-16, 14:28
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Volvo-penta-2003-engine-and-gear-box-complete-except-fuel-pump-/231825963529?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:CA:1120

lampshuk
27-01-16, 22:37
Things aren't THAT bad yet!
Although, more seriously, I had thought of buying an old diesel engine, dismantling and rebuilding it as a learning experience. 750 quid is a bit expensive, though.
Plus: it would almost certainly end up sitting in dismantled state for years before being thrown away.
For that reason: Ah'm oot.

RIBW
28-01-16, 08:15
............ I had thought of buying an old diesel engine, dismantling and rebuilding it as a learning experience. 750 quid is a bit expensive, though.

750 bought me a fully working spare engine with instrument panel on a transport pallet. I run it up every couple of months. Inevitably, since I bought it, the boat engine has behaved impeccably! The only items I have robbed so far are the anode holder and intake silencer. As a non-mechanic, it has been useful (because it is local to home) for ensuring I have the right tools for work on the boat engine (e.g. the square spanner for the anode and a foreshortened allen key for the starter motor bolts). Refurbishing the instrument panel was very instructive - hence the document Len found on dropbox.

Len, I was going to email you the cooling system dit I cobbled together but couldn't work out how to add an attachment to a PM.

Cheers
Bob

Len Ingalls
28-01-16, 09:35
750 bought me a fully working spare engine with instrument panel on a transport pallet. I run it up every couple of months. Inevitably, since I bought it, the boat engine has behaved impeccably! The only items I have robbed so far are the anode holder and intake silencer. As a non-mechanic, it has been useful (because it is local to home) for ensuring I have the right tools for work on the boat engine (e.g. the square spanner for the anode and a foreshortened allen key for the starter motor bolts). Refurbishing the instrument panel was very instructive - hence the document Len found on dropbox.



Len, I was going to email you the cooling system dit I cobbled together but couldn't work out how to add an attachment to a PM.

Cheers
Bob

That used VP 2003 would list at $US 2500-3500 over here.

I sent you a PM with my email address if you would like to try sending your cooling info to me.

Cheers/ Len

RIBW
28-01-16, 11:36
That used VP 2003 would list at $US 2500-3500 over here.
I sent you a PM with my email address if you would like to try sending your cooling info to me.
Cheers/ Len

Wow! That value is a surprise.

Email sent.

Cheers
Bob

Len Ingalls
01-02-16, 11:15
I am posting this link of a VP 2003 RW cooled that has been stripped of accessories for photo reference.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Volvo-penta-2003-engine-Spares-or-repairs-/151968908766?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:CA:3160

Cheers/ Len

jonrarit
01-02-16, 11:55
New elbow arrived from the states today ....... great service & quality stuff

see here (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2532034/2016-01-30%2010.35.25.jpg)

Len Ingalls
01-02-16, 12:55
New elbow arrived from the states today ....... great service & quality stuff

see here (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2532034/2016-01-30%2010.35.25.jpg)

Beautiful !

Slowtack
01-02-16, 21:20
Jonrarit
Have you a link to the elbow provider please?

Len Ingalls
02-02-16, 01:23
Jonrarit
Have you a link to the elbow provider please?

This is one source. http://www.ebay.com/itm/331518131659?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I'm not sure if jonrarit got his there or elsewhere.

Cheers/ Len

jonrarit
02-02-16, 09:29
This is one source. http://www.ebay.com/itm/331518131659?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Yup that's the one. Customs will grab another 20 before you get your paws on it though

jr

Slowtack
02-02-16, 20:39
Great, thank you both

lampshuk
07-02-16, 19:05
Penultimate post, I hope, since the last one should be one announcing complete success.
One last twist, though.
I left the elbow sitting on the engine for a week, in completely dry conditions and returned to find this peculiar "sweating" on it.
(last photo in the series)
https://goo.gl/photos/3pyqoLwsrditEZTN7

I wiped the drips off then tasted it. Horrible smokey, acidic taste.
I had painted the elbow with anti-rust paint, which believe is acidic, but the HCL previously used I flushed clean away.
You can see some similar drops on the engine block itself (in the oddly eroded bit where the "ports" connect", and that had no HCL or other treatment.
There was no condensation beading elsewhere on the engine.
Seems bizarre to me.
Anyone got any suggestions why my engine is apparently sweating (without doing any work!) ?

NormanS
07-02-16, 19:25
Perfectly normal and nothing to worry about. Cast iron is relatively porous, and as the elbow has been subjected to hot salt water, it is not surprising that the actual metal contains salt water. The salt is hygroscopic, and so in a damp atmosphere, water will show on the surface.

lampshuk
07-02-16, 22:37
Thanks, Norman. Good to know.

Happy to hear that my 28 year old, spongey diesel engine is not unusual.

Daydream believer
08-02-16, 05:19
Anyone got any suggestions why my engine is apparently sweating (without doing any work!) ?

Fear of you messing about with it:encouragement:

Len Ingalls
22-02-16, 11:10
This used elbow just popped up on ebay UK
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Volvo-Penta-2001-2002-2003-Exhaust-Elbow-/281941720213?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:CA:3160

lampshuk
22-02-16, 23:02
Fear of you messing about with it:encouragement:

It's 28 years old.

I can fiddle with its gaskets without fear of reproach.

Or prosecution.

Slowtack
04-03-16, 22:00
Just received my new elbow from Marineparts Europe for €228 (no other connection)
Roughly same price as from US but no VAT issue
Any advice on degreasing/priming/painting welcome................