LadyJessie
regular
Reged: 21/11/2006
Posts: 986
Loc: the Med
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This is a question following from the 'genset' thread below, but it really opens up another issue so I think it warrants a different thread:
One of the problems of 'liveaboardness' is that it is often extremely difficult to chase up warranty commitments and you can be left high and dry. The experience related on the 'genset' thread below by Englander and myself of seemingly the same genset with the same sort of problems, but a very different result is very typical of this problem.
When I finally understood what the problem really was with my genset (very well described by Englander on that thread), I was in the Caribbean. Something like 4000 nm's away from the installer and the manufacturer. They both pointed fingers at each other and I was too far away to get them into a room and 'bang heads together' to resolve this issue. I had to make new repairs by 'non-FP' authorised repairshops (not a lot of those in the Carib) just to get going. Then when I returned to the Med to revisit this issue, I found that the local FP 'authorised representatives' actually knows less about this genset than I now do from having to fix it continuously. By now FP disowns any responsibility because 'warranty repairs' have been performed by 'non-authorised' persons. Well, doh. That is what happens on a cruising yacht in remote places; you do not wait for the FP repairman to helicopter in, as if they would..... You try to solve the problem.
In summary, there is a serious issue with manufacturer's responsibility that they can easily muddle for liveaboards cruising the world. The only solution I can think about is tough testing of all equipment onboard before you set off, but it is often difficult to always simulate liveaboard conditions.
This is partially a 'beware' thread for new 'would-be-liveaboards' and a question for present liveaboards: how do you deal with long distance warranty and 'fit-for-purpose' claims?
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Troutbridge
regular
Reged: 19/03/2007
Posts: 332
Loc: Cruising, mon, cruising
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Fit for purpose is a bit of a joke. Fit for a sunny Sunday on the Solent maybe but rarely on a long distance cruiser. I think you'd be hard put to get anywhere with a claim, there's too many variables.
Warranty claims, on the other hand, should (should) be easier to deal with. I have a theory that most suppliers reckon long distance cruisers will just give up, because it becomes too expensive, time consuming and difficult to pursue a warranty claim long distance. That said, if there is no possible get out (for the manufacturer) then I think the warranty would be honoured. The problems come when the manufacturer can claim the organisation that fitted the equipment fitted it incorrectly.
Incidentally, there is a web site called 'F P's are cr*p' (full makers name). Trust me, you're not alone with your problems.
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Some see the glass as half full, some see it as half empty. I see it as too damn small.
http:/blog.mailasail.com/troutbridge
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LadyJessie
regular
Reged: 21/11/2006
Posts: 986
Loc: the Med
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Troutbridge, thank you very much for that web link! It does make me feel a lot better knowing that I am not alone.
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KellysEye
regular
Reged: 23/07/2006
Posts: 668
Loc: Curacao
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Unfortunately it's well known FP don't deliver on their guarantees. On the general issue I don't really see the answer unless the item is small enough to courier back to the manufacturer and has sufficient value.
There were a surprising number of Raymarine autopilot computer failures out here. Raymarine said send them back, couriered a new one in return and picked up all costs. That's rare though and many things are too big. We had an instance (in Venezuela) where we had to pay the courier to return the item and the cost was more than the item.
You are right about testing but I wonder if it might be worth a "what kit broke/didn't break on your boat" thread.
I suspect a number of manufacturers would feature highly on the breakages (FP generators, Jabsco toilets and Simrad pilots for a start). And a number would feature highly on the reliability (e.g. for me Hydrovane, Icom, Lofrans) But would the mods allow such a thread if it it includes naming and shaming
Edited by KellysEye (22/04/2008 22:07)
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Grehan
regular
Reged: 11/06/2001
Posts: 1071
Loc: Inland France
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Quote:
But would the mods allow such a thread if it it includes naming and shaming
I can't see why not, YBW is (rightly) tolerant of free comment, honestly (not vindictively) expressed. Members are also sensible enough to take opinions with a certain pinch of salt as well - maybe someone's got an axe to grind over some particular, personal, issue. Fair enough. Over the years here have been any number of individual posts delivering brickbats - and also awarding plaudits - to one product or company or another.
What hasn't happened is a concentrated or consolidated listing of the 'good' and the 'bad'.
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___ Grehan :: French Waterways information ___
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ribrage
regular
Reged: 25/06/2006
Posts: 211
Loc: south coast
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Hi guys
I dont proclaim to be an expert having only lived on board for two years but ive found that trying to lead a "normal" lifestyle on board meant buying specialised equipment that was not made to a high enough standard for frequent use.
The vast majoity of that kit is aimed at the leisure market and is built to a very low standard and seems to last the length of the guarentee or less.
for example: I replaced the cabin lamps with a couple of spotlights and recessed LED's , the LED's have been ... ok (ish) the spotlamps have ALL been replaced (under guarentee) in the last 12 months and now the guarentee is up I will now have to pay to replace them at £26 each.
2 years ago I bought a couple of 240v swivell lamps in sainsburys £5 for the pair I thought .... disposable when they blow they go... theyve been bounced around in a locker with junked piled on top of them and they are still working fine.
These were just cheap purchases compared to your generator issues if I had paid £5000 ish for a fischer panda (oopps did I just say that )generator that failed within months Id be seething !
I have a 2.2kva volt regulated generator built by Suzuki was originally purchased 24 years ago to run an engine tuner in the back of a van. That genny has a squashed fuel tank (used as a seat) has never to my knowledge been serviced has been bashed and trashed day after day commercialy.
It now sits on the foredeck powering the boats 240v on the odd time I need power tools or leccy for the sandwich toaster.... never let me down >> touches wood<<
people just seem to put up with these shoddy goods and high prices. A what to buy website is what we need with no commercial pressure from advertisers and hosted in china to stop the companys closing it down !
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Mess with me .... and the fender gets it !
www.absoluteaqua.co.uk
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Troutbridge
regular
Reged: 19/03/2007
Posts: 332
Loc: Cruising, mon, cruising
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I suppose that in a consumer society, companies make money by producing 'stuff' that needs regularly replacing. If somebody produced a bullet-proof bit of kit, they'd sell a finite number of them then go out of business. Most cruisers have 'stepped-out of' the consumer society, so what we want is the bullet-proof kit that goes on forever at minimal cost!. Almost everything to do with boats (or aircraft) is vastly over-priced. On my (new) boat there is a lot of surface rust in various places where obviously inferior stainless has been used. Interesting to see what the agent says in a week or so when she goes back for some warranty work. To be perfectly fair, so far all faults have been fixed (maker Broadblue, agent Multihull World). Aha, have I started a new thread? Boat was produced in Poland to keep the manufacturing costs down. fair enough, but maybe quality has suffered a bit.
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Some see the glass as half full, some see it as half empty. I see it as too damn small.
http:/blog.mailasail.com/troutbridge
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jimbaerselman
regular
Reged: 18/04/2006
Posts: 1683
Loc: Greece in Summer, Southampton ...
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Quote:
Almost everything to do with boats (or aircraft) is vastly over-priced.
Things to do with aircraft are expensive, but not over-priced. You're talking very high levels of reliability, achieved by using tested and certificated components, with the items themselves inspected and tested . . . you are paying for the cost of reliability.
Boats; ah, yes. Go to the caravan suppliers, diesel engineers whose business is supporting farming equipment . . .
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Jim Baerselman
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/ or Google 'jimb sail'
Compares the Cruising areas of Europe
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5309
Loc: Mediterranean France, cruising...
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Quote:
Quote:
But would the mods allow such a thread if it it includes naming and shaming
I can't see why not, YBW is (rightly) tolerant of free comment, honestly (not vindictively) expressed.
A couple of days ago, on an LED thread, I expressed the opinion that one should only buy nav lights that claim to be approved or comply with the requirements. I opined that since a particular company (the one about whom the OP was asking for advice) did not state that it complied with the requirements but had only, according to its website, asked its insurers for their opinion, I would buy elsewhere. Fairly sensible advice, you might say? After all, you ask insurers about insurance, not the technical requirements of marine equipment?
Yesterday, I had a PM from the moderators to say that they had had angry letter from the company about my post and that consequently they had pulled the entire LED thread. The PM to me was a warning.
Tolerance, like freedom and beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
Sad, isn't it?
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I have turned off PMs for the cruising season, instead please email to ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com If you recently sent me an email to ybw.20.... I will not have received it as it got spammed-out and expired. The new address is ybw1.20.... as above
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Abigail
regular
Reged: 06/10/2002
Posts: 616
Loc: South of France
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I'm v sorry to hear that about the LEDs - hadn't seen the original thread and do not know the name of the company concerned but I would completely agree with the advice. LEDs for nav lights seem to me only acceptable in the light of assurances from the manufacturer. (Are they checking their insurance against litigation or shipwreck?!)
There are a number of times we have named people from whom we've had shoddy services or products - and believe me, the companies have known we were pissed off before we posted here. The only comeback we've ever had was from Square Mile after a litany of problems in Brighton. They emailed me expressing regret that I felt it necessary to make such comments; I referred them to earlier email correspondence and said that I would speak as I find. End of correspondence.
And it is of course true they hide behind distance, even here in Europe. Yes - I'm really going to (at my cost) ship my inverter to Britain from Portugal, for them to probably ship it to Holland then still argue that any problems are user error or something else!! Can't fault the people in Lisbon who came down to Portimao to help us sort it out (but can;t remember the name right now!)
So come on YBW - a piece of unbiased advice or complaint based on direct experience should be permissible and the lawyers should be less scared of the letters.
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Sarah & Pip
s/v Roaring Girl
www.sailblogs.com/member/roaringgirl
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