tripleace
regular
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 819
Loc: Camberley
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Bla Bla Bla , looking at problem
bla bla bla.. etc etc..
final paragraph, we can buy up to 2300 litres under the small quantity scheme and get round the vat.
I dont think any of them understand the problem or maybe they are just sending up smoke signals to pretend to be doing something
Broom 38 details
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Gludy
regular
Reged: 19/08/2001
Posts: 6705
Loc: Brecon, Wales
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I do not think anyone in government is even aware of the problem facing the marine industry and its customers.
All respnses just miss the target completely - I do not think its a ploy, or intentional - they are just idoits who live in a sort of wonderful isolation.
Paul
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tripleace
regular
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 819
Loc: Camberley
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do you not think it strange that we all write very clearly about the problem and we all seem to get back answers that are slightly off subject????
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Gludy
regular
Reged: 19/08/2001
Posts: 6705
Loc: Brecon, Wales
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I think that no one in government has any understanding of the issue.
I also beleive that the price hike is is big that it will be a major blow to the UK boat industry - in my marina we pay about £120 per gallon - that could go to £5 - a 400% price increase - there is not a power boater I know that, if the price hike happens will not pack it in. Most say it 'would never be allowed to happen" - I hope they are right.
Paul
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tripleace
regular
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 819
Loc: Camberley
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we have T*ss£rs in whitehall and a load of boaters who don't think it will happen.
well if it does I'm off..
HM government can stick it.
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Meddy
regular
Reged: 10/09/2002
Posts: 3084
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The government won't be too worried about those who pack it in, if they do increas the price fourfold then if three out of every four boaters pack it in, it will still be tax neutral to them. I know that my arguement is based on averages but the point I am trying to make is that the TAX YIELD would almost certainly still be higher than it is now, therefore they will not loose out.
Sadly, I believe that the respose you got was a politicians answer, they are aware of your concern and don't want to LIE to you so they will duck the question.
Martyn
Living the dream
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Gludy
regular
Reged: 19/08/2001
Posts: 6705
Loc: Brecon, Wales
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I do not think the tax will remain nuetral - they will be losing the VAT and other taxes on marinas, reapirs. parts. boat sales etc. In many of these areas the total tax yiled including VAT is very high - coporation tax, VAT, PYE etc.
I know that I will be off and I know some in the business of repairing and servicing boats who will also be off. The total tax lost is very much greater than any possible extra they can raise on fuel.
As already stated we have a pile t***ssers in power and a pile of boaters who do not think it can happen. Almost every boater I speak to thinks it cannot happen because the effect would be so huge.
Years ago income tax was 98% top rate then some brilliant politician invented a wealth tax of 3% - when they applied this the twits managed a marginal tax rate of 101% - it is for such reasons that I have to assume that they are really stupid!!!
Paul
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Meddy
regular
Reged: 10/09/2002
Posts: 3084
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At the end of the day it will be tax yield that decides the issue, you make a good point about VAT etc, perhaps someone with a better grasp of the facts and figures that you and I (eg the RYA) should make more of this.
That said I am not sure that it will be true that tax yield will drop - why? Because we are a pretty apathetic and pragmatic race and the liklihood is that a lot of people will just shrug their shoulders and carry on (perhaps cutting down on their cruising distances but still owning boats).
It will take a MASS exodus of boaters to reduce the tax yield and that will just not happen. There will be casualties and victims, namely the family boaters who try to fund their hobby from their earnings. I am afraid that their numbers will not influence an election so they don't count to the politicians.
Please be aware that my cynicism is aimed at the politicians and not at this campaign, I just think that it is already a done deal and the responses you are getting from MPS, government etc are just their normal smokescreens.
Regards
Martyn
Living the dream
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Gludy
regular
Reged: 19/08/2001
Posts: 6705
Loc: Brecon, Wales
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"It will take a MASS exodus of boaters to reduce the tax yield and that will just not happen"
In Swansea we pay about £1.20 per gallon for diesel - this will go up 400% and not one single boater I have met can afford to continue boating after such a price hike. A boat that now uses say 15 gallons an hour on today's terms would suddenly in today;'s terms shoot up 4 to five fold = equivalent fuel consumption of 60 to 75 gallons per hour - a boat that now does 50 gallons an hour will be costing the same as if it did 200 to 250 gallons per hour at today's prices.
There would be a dramatic effect on the entire power boat UK market.
One £300,000 boat built and sold in the UK yields say about £135,000 in government revenue (VAT, tax from all the salaries, wage costs, corporation tax etc.) The same boat goes on in running costs to provide well over £10,000 p.a. yield to the treasury. Combine this with the fantastic drop in fuel consumption that would have to happen and you are looking at a net loss in total tax yield. There is just no way that the tax yield can be the same or higher than it is today - it would drop. I would like the RYA or a magazine to commission a proper report on this - I cannot see other than a dramatic drop in tax yield.
Now would anyone really want to purchase a power boat for use in the UK - the only market left would be the round the bay small speed boats.
Paul
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Meddy
regular
Reged: 10/09/2002
Posts: 3084
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Paul
Tax yield - I do think this is the "best club" in our bag and I hope it is played up.
But, I still don't think there will be a MASS exodus of powerboaters. There will be an undoubted reduction in running hours, but large motorboats are still sold in countries where there is no red diesel.
Do you think your buddies in Swansea are a truly representative sample? - unlikely. If they are your boating/friends and aquaintances then their demographic profile is likely to be simlar to yours and there is an increased likelihood of them sharing your views. On Windermere, where I was until this Spring, many of the large boatowners don't take their boats out of the marina and the price of fuel is a non issue (There is one story, possibly apocriphal, that one particular boat owner has never taken their large Sealine out of its berth and had to get the Marina staff to take it around to the fuel pump as the heating system had run out of diesel.)
I bet the Treasury are well aware of the likely effect on tax yield despite their wishy/washy responses.
There will still be a British boat industry - a lot of production goes abroad anyway and suprisingly enough the Builders silence is deafening, if they were really worried wouldn't they be screaming by now, they probably recognise that its a done deal and are concentrating on changing their marketing strategy.
Oh dear, I'm beginning to sound a bit like Private Frazer from Dads Army - "we're doomed, we're doomed". Sorry about that but my opinion about the integrity of politicians ( particuarly this shower) drops daily. By the way I have signed the petition
Martyn
Living the dream
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