| Allan |
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| 15/05/2008 21:50 |
Budget, again.
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I know budget has been discussed on here at length and normally ends with "depends on lifestyle" etc. I am interested to hear if anyone has done anything similar to my idea. Unlike others on here I would like to start by sailing the Welsh, south west Scottish, Irish and south west English coasts. I would like to spend a lot of the time at anchor and in more out of way harbours. I plan to buy a suitable boat and I am happy live on little money. Any comments gratefully received.
Allan
| roly_voya |
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| 15/05/2008 22:50 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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You will need quite a sophisticated boat if you are going to be happy spending UK winters on board.
Must haves - Hot water, high capacity dry heater, really good electrics and lighting designed to cope with demands of long winter nights. Lots of good warm cloathing so you will be comfortable outdoors in all waethers. Somewhere to put coats and wellies without them dripping below - ether enclosed wheelhouse or full cockpit tent. Legs/twin keel ability to dry alongside or up a creek is a must.
Even the best equiped boat is not going to do much in Nov/Dec, its not so much the temp as the darkness so you need to find somewhere snug and secure to hole up. Creeks/mud berths etc are exellent for wintering but sometimes take a bit of finding. Alternative is to get well up one of the biger rivers oronto a section of canal. Might be worth considering hopping accross to S.Brittany for 3 moths if you can. From Feb onwards there is some glorious sailing. I did try it but found that because I work full time it wasnt practicable to spend winter onboard unless in a marina but the boat was quite basic then. Even with the boat finished I think I would find it tough if I had to go to work, rowing ashore every morning in the dark when its freezing and blowing takes perseverence. If I didnt have to work reckon it would be practical because you have a much wider choice of spots.
As far as budget goes I tend to go with the Pardys formula of about 60% of what you spend on the bank. The previso in the uk is that marina fees have become so high that getting stuck for even a few weeks in the wrong place could blow the budget for a year. Unless you are ruthless about not using them marina fees will probably be you biggest singe expense, even just dropping in once per week for fuel & water + shower & laundry could set you bacl £1500-£3000pa depending on area. Food and boat maintainace are probably the other main areas at about the same level.
On boat size I think you tend to want a little more space for higher lats because you spend more time below and need more cloaths. Length O/A is a poor guide and the only reason so much attention is paid to it is because it controls berthing charges, boat prices tend to go on wt not length amd lenth W/L x Beam is a more reliable assessment of space. I would want a min of about 6T, 26ft waterline, 10ft beam. Bilge keels are fine but should have metal shoes fitted to the bottem and you need to check that the design was intended to regulary take the ground because a lot arn't. Cat is also a posibility and dont rule out long keel + legs. Quite easy to ues once you get the hang of it and the strongets design + very good leaning on a wall.
I have been based at milfor haven for the last few years and before that was in Morcombe bay. I lived abourd in UK for about 3 years but the last 2 have been back on the bank due to work/family & refitting. Intend setting off again next year heading for N spain this time. PM me if you have specific questions
| Troutbridge |
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| 16/05/2008 09:39 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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I've lived onboard in a marina in the Channel Isles whilst working. The winters can be really tough, even with decent heating, shore power TV etc etc. Don't forget the laundry 'problem' during the winter months. Another thing to consider is power requirements, long dark nights! Solar won't be much good so you're looking at wind and/or a generator of some sort. I don't know your age, what you regard as little money or your ability to disregard being uncomfortable, but boats in the higher latitudes can get very damp, very cold and thus very uncomfortable. A smaller boat is easier to keep warm and dry, but what about 'cabin fever'? A lot to consider, much of which depends on age/budget/expectations, but if you start with the premise you need to be warm, dry and secure at anchor in pretty 'iffy' weather then you won't go far wrong. Speaking of the Pardeys, don't forget they always seemed to have jobs in various places to top up their funds.
| Jock89 |
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| 16/05/2008 10:14 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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Allen, when I retire & my cruising life begins in earnest I will be doing exactly the same thing, with pretty much the same objectives as yourself. I'm currently fitting my boat out accordingly WRT Eberspacher heating/220aHr Lifeline (x4) batt's, wind-charging etc.
I can't wait for my boat to be finished, so I can be independent from Marinas for months at a time if I so wish.
I have a Nicholson 38-not a bilge-keeler I know-but having been in love with the Golden Hind 31' bilge-keeler for several years...I almost bought one. Very affordable, (even more so in the USA) well known sea-keeping qualities, & can get in just about anywhere, & have an enthusiastic owners group. Over 6'-2" head-room too, a big plus for me.!
Only reason I backed away from the GH was the smaller tankage & storage space for long-distance cruising.
roly' & trouts' posts sum it all up very well.!
Jeff
| mike_bryon |
| (regular) |
| 16/05/2008 14:18 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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We spent three winters living aboard in the UK and have so far completed one in Venice where we now live and where the winter is even colder (but shorter). I would agree that a cockpit tent is a big help and we would not want to do without our drip feed oil heating with radiators (a Kabola). A dehumidifier makes life a lot better too. Without it condensation is a major pain. We knew people who kept nice and warm with their diesel cooker which heated their boat as well as cooking their food.
I would suggest investigating the price of marinas in winter. Many have a winter deal which is far more reasonable than the rest of the year. We found that the less popular marinas did deals on their list price and were happy for us to live aboard. In winter we found the ability to walk ashore essential and took every advantage of the showers, laundry etc and I suggest if it is at all possible then it is well worth budgeting for. if it allows you to heat with electricity rather than oil then you should recover some of the extra cost.
Best wishes with your plans.
| Allan |
| (regular) |
| 16/05/2008 15:57 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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Many thanks for all of your replies, they are all interesting to me. If I get my finger out over the next year I would ready to leave around this time next year. I may be able to arrange some work with one of my present employers but would prefer to live on just the income from my house. It will produce, at todays rates, around £1000 per month. Realisticly I would need to be able to survive on £800 a month, allowing for times with empty rooms etc. I would see income from work as a bonus. How does this sound as a budget?
Allan
| mollyoxford |
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| 16/05/2008 16:58 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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Best of luck and let us know how you get on.
I am currently planning on going off sometime next year, also on rent (bit less that you mention, but have a partner to share the load).
By conicidence I am also trying to work out what heating to fit - I want something simple and non-electricity-drawing. had Eberspracher on previous boat - great but pricey and complex.
Looking at Taylors/Sigmar/Refleks paraffin/diesel heaters, as the boat is a gaff cutter wthe Taylors cooker, seems more in character. Prices still scary and can't summon anything up 2nd hand.
Got a 20yr old "worst of both worlds" paraffin blown air job that came with the boat (not installed) that I really don't want to refit as I'll lose a whole locker....
| mogy |
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| 16/05/2008 17:27 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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You should read "THE TWO HUNDRED POUND MILLIONAIRE" BY Weston Martye ?
| Tranona |
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| 16/05/2008 17:48 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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Or Annie Hill Voyaging on a Small Income (inspired by Weston Martyr). OK if you spend most of your time at sea, like living off beans and know how to use a pressure cooker!
| JamesFrance |
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| 16/05/2008 18:47 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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Quite a few have mentioned UK winters, which are far from ideal for boat life.
When we lived on a narrowboat around Britain, we also had a motorhome and spent the winters in Spain. That was a good combination and kept the interest going.
| SeaVenture |
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| 16/05/2008 19:16 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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We have a Newport diesel heater taking the damp and cold out of a 50' boat. Works wonderfully. Granted, the winter here hasn't been horrible this year, but we had to wear mufflers, sweats, a jacket, hat, and gloves on July 3. A few warm days in fall and spring, mostly blowy and cold. I also recommend oil lamps for added heat, though they don't help the damp at all--in fact, they add to it. Next week we head south toward Mexico. Yea!
| Squeaky |
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| 17/05/2008 09:04 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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I wish forums had been around when I started in 1977 but they weren't so I had to learn as I went along. For a start I was in a Halcyon 27 with a partner (for a few years) which is almost a dinghy compared to the usual size of yacht now-a-days. The partner was replaced numerous times over the years but that's another story.
One thing we didn't have was electrcity so I used a 2 kg propane bottle with a mantle lamp which provided more then enough heat and lots of good light for reading. Had to leave the central hatch open for ventilation and keep the heat down. This caused condensation but a few hours with the companionway open every day or so solved that.
For showering we used a l0 ltr "Sunshower" bag half filled with water from the tap and a kettle fulll of boiling water suspended from a cleat on the mast outside with the shower head led down through a dorade vent.
We/I lived for 17 years in the eastern Med with about £300 a month working when ever work was on offer which wasn't all that often but if so any funds was used for "extras" or banked. I divided by monthly income by 5 and drew 20% every Monday - half went for house keeping and the rest for the boat and extras. If there was only four Mondays in the month, the 20% remaining in the bank built up an "emergency" fund for slipping, major repairs etc. If there was any cash left on Sunday we spent it foolishly by eating out or having a few drinks as a refill was waiting on Monday morning.
Laundry was done in a bucket in the cockpit. Fill it with cold water with lots of soap powder and leave it sit over night so you will just have to rinse it the next day - once you have the soap rinsed out the dirt will be gone also. My T shirts were whiter then white and not to be ashamed off. Modern thought seems to be convinced that hot water on tap is a necessity of life - it isn't.
I was introduced to the "French" system of washing dishes - lots of liquid soap and a sponge left to air dry. Spoke to someone the other day who couldn't go sailing as their water heater was broken - thought he couldn't live without hot water.
I never used marinas because it was just beyond the budget although I had to pay for use of the town quay from time to time but one soon learned which harbours charged and which didn't. Of course, now everyone is on the band wagon and a marina berth is almost a necessity for winters but certainly not during the summer months.
You will find that life has greatly changed since the days of Pardeys with yachties especially the ladies expecting all "mod cons" while cruising. It is still possible to cruise on a small budget but you won't be able to follow the herd from marina to marina and will have to make your own amusement but you will also learn a lot about how to maintain your own yacht and equipment out of necessity. I am glad I didn't have the cash to pay others as I had to learn how to do things myself - didn't enjoy being faced with seemingly insurmountable problems but solved them eventually and look back on all the happy memories.
An article by Frankie Dixon about the cost of living/sailing in a 24 foot Eventide in YW in Dec 76 convinced me that it was possible.
Cheers
Jac
| baggypipes |
| (regular) |
| 17/05/2008 09:24 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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PM sent
ps our 9mtr catamaran is for sale fully equiped for living aboard pm for details.
| Troutbridge |
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| 17/05/2008 09:44 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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£1000 per month (I assume net) should cover it. Despite books by Annie Hill et al don't kid yourself that living on a boat is a really cheap option. Heating will, pro-rata, work out more expensive than heating a house. I enjoyed Squeaky's post, but have to say that was then and this is now. If you're prepared to live by boiling kettles to get hot water for a shower, traipse off in the driving rain to [probably] slightly dubious toilets and showers, do your laundry in a bucket [fine in a warm climate, but the UK in January?] then go for it, personally I have a great heads/shower set-up on my boat and use them most of the time.
Incidentally, somebody mentioned the £200 millionaire. Good book BUT that was £200 in the early 1930's, the equivalent today would probably be about £12-£15K today, maybe a bit more.
Your project is do-able. I'm told that solid fuel heating produces a 'dry' heat which helps with condensation and drying things out. ventilation would then be a problem of course. If you plan on living 'on the hook' you'll need a good dingy...not always possible to come alongside to go shopping, top up with fuel and water not to mention gas refills.
It all depends on how you want to live, i.e. what your expectations wrt levels of comfort are.
| AndrewB |
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| 17/05/2008 09:55 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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Quote:Possible, but seriously spartan. If you can live on land for this amount, then you can live on water. You'll find many people, me included, who have retreated to a boat when times have got hard, so actually its cheaper.
Realisticly I would need to be able to survive on £800 a month, allowing for times with empty rooms etc. I would see income from work as a bonus. How does this sound as a budget?
What is more difficult is to keep the boat in good cruising order and face the expenses associated with regular cruising away from base. It means keeping entirely away from marinas during summer and holing up in a cheap mudberth during winter - you really do have to be somewhere that electricity is available. You'll become something of a water-gypsy, would you enjoy this lifestyle? Incidentally a yacht that can take the ground easily is an asset here.
| JamesFrance |
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| 17/05/2008 10:35 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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We spent the winter of 69/70 in Malta with no electricity. I would not like to do that in the UK though, as you would probably ruin your motor from running it off load a lot.
For heat and light we used a tilley lamp, I fitted whale footpumps for water and bought a secondhand kerosene fridge for £5 which made wonderful ice in summer too.
We too used a solar shower and filled our calor cylinders from local ones using a piece of plastic tube. The soak bucket worked well for us also, a family with 2 small children.
The next spring we set off on a leisurely cruise ending in Falmouth. We visited 75 harbours on the way and didn't have to pay in any of them. In those days even in marinas you normally had a free night. I wish it were the same now.
I would happily do the same again, the whole point was to go for a simple life. Money does not buy happiness.
| pW2 |
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| 20/05/2008 10:38 |
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Re: Budget, again.
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I´ve wintered from northern Norway and on south, including England, Ireland and Galicia in my 40ft cat on and off since the 70´s and I´ve never had more than a 100 quid a week for everything but I´ve always been warm and well fed, and, mostly, the old dear gets painted and new gear when necessary. It´s all in the mind. Fortune favours the bold, even sailors, but she castigates the foolhardy.
We´ve never spent a night in a marina except once or twice in northern Finland, Estonia and Latvia because they were cheap and everything was included.