(regular)

17/05/2008 09:24

SSB Radio - Please check my check list

I'm just putting together my checklist for installing my Icom 710 and want to ensure I have everything. What's missing from this list? What kind of cable should I be using and so on...

- 710 unit
- ATU 130
- insulated backstay
- ground-plate
- copper wire somewhere???

(regular)

17/05/2008 10:40

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Not copper wire, but copper strip (as wide as possible)

(regular)

17/05/2008 10:49

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

What's it for?

(regular)

17/05/2008 10:57

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

I'm not an expert on this, but IIRC, it has something to do with transmission and must be below the waterline (inside the boat). The more you have, the better your SSB will work. It connects the ATU to the ground plate, which should be as near to the ATU as possible.

(regular)

17/05/2008 11:11

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

To provide the groundplane against which your antenna works - the counterpoise.
Copper foil about 3" wide provides a good groundplane when run below the waterline picking up anything grounded, such as keel, watertanks etc. It then connects to your antenna, ATU and radio ground connections.
Flat conductors such as copper foil provide a counterpoise whereas round wires don't.
I had this system, recommended by the radio guru Gordon West, and it worked very well.

(regular)

17/05/2008 11:13

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Hi DB
good list, forget the ground plate, use a single bronze through hull (isolated) to start with.
You dont need an insulator on the lower end of the backstay if a fibregalss or non metal boat. bjust slip a 6 foot length of wire cover over the portion that someone may touch

To add more ground - if ever needed - connect heavy items - like the engine ! by a piece of 6mm earth cable (Certainly doesnt need to be flat strip) to the isolated through hull VIA a 0.1 microfarad 1000v disc ceramic capacitor (Sounds expensive and comlicated lol - but they are pence, and have 2 legs !!! - use a piece of cable block (the plastic type strip with brass inserts) stick 2 bits of cable (the 6 mm earth ) on one side, and the capacitor on the other.. this provides RF path but blocks DC hence no risk of interaction.
Use a 30 amp fuse in the supply (Ahead of the installed fuses in the lead). take a direct feed to the batteries if possible and if you need to extend the supplied cable go up to larger cable.
You will need a couple of pl259 plugs to suit the so239 connectors on the radio and atu, and another small length of 6mm cable to connect the atu output to the chainplate - either use a ring terminal large enough to go under one of the chainplate bolts - or, drill and tap a small hole in the bottom of the plate and use a small ring terminal.
Connect the ground on the atu DIRECTLY to the through hull - the capacitors are only needed if you add additional items.

try to keep the rg58 coax cable - that you fit your pl259 plugs on - away from the power leads if possible.

The most difficult thing is finding space for the enormous bulk of the large but incredibly good 710

Have fun.

Joe

(regular)

17/05/2008 18:02

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Quote:

To provide the groundplane against which your antenna works - the counterpoise.
Copper foil about 3" wide provides a good groundplane when run below the waterline picking up anything grounded, such as keel, watertanks etc. It then connects to your antenna, ATU and radio ground connections.
Flat conductors such as copper foil provide a counterpoise whereas round wires don't.
I had this system, recommended by the radio guru Gordon West, and it worked very well.

I completely agree with you although I do not feel you need to connect to water-tanks and the like unless you don't have a CI keel or sintered plate. This is the way I, and many others I've helped over the years have installed their rigs. I think CS's method is unnecessarily complicated. I don't see the need to use anything other than the (CI) keel or sintered plate and would definitely connect the ATU to either of these with a 75mm wide copper tape (it's not very thick so be careful as it can tear) which can be laid along the bilge or adjacent bulkheads and impact glued into place. A coat or two or Danboline (bilge paint) will prevent corrosion.

FWIW, I would always use two insulators on the backstay. If you omit the lower one, you run the risk of salt water crystals creating a problem. The insulators have fins to reduce this risk.

Demonboy, the installation above is very simple and works extremely well.

(regular)

17/05/2008 18:40

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Seems a lot of work to connect a simple antenna.... mucho hyperbole on the internet..

Al I can say is I have 25 years ACTUAL real world experience.. not surfed.. and it works.. you can spend money. or not.. and get excellent results..

Tell me surfed gurus... what is the benefit of using strip as opposed to wire.. why do hams not use the same thing.. why are ground plane antennas made of wire counterpoises...

cos you READ it somewhere ?? or you KNOW ??.. major difference...

Salt water crystals in insulators ?? give me a break lol ??.. I have heard it all now. utter dross.

sorry, but it is.. please YOU tell me why.. dont quote some dubious site..

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez Crizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz n Allaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

Fins on insulators.. sorry.. lmao... Absolutely totally ridiculous.

(regular)

17/05/2008 19:09

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

I have installed quite a few rigs on yachts over the years and can only confirm that, without exception, those concerned reported superb results. You do not have the exclusive to this type of work. If you do not agree, simply say so, and keep your banal remarks to yourself.

I'm afraid I find you a rather unpleasant, 'know-all' character, so will place you on my ignore list as, I believe, many others have recently done.

(regular)

17/05/2008 19:20

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Superb, no worries,,

I have installed HUNDREDS and do so all the time. unpleasant is as unpleasant be.. but ill informed posters quoting thing they have no understanding of is the norm on internet sites,,,

Please feel free to NOT reply as you chose to ignore me.

I KNOW what I KNOW.. if you find that less than appealing.. bye bye. but I am fed up to the teeth of would be techs without substance.
If, you want to discuss the ins n outs or techy merits of a solution, I would be happy to oblige.

Otherwise.. yes, the ignore poster is a great option.

I offer facts, you offer anecdotes supported by clueless owners who report 'superb results'

I make more than I ever need doing this, and will continue.. I dont offer snake oil promises, just reality. I dont quote mega bucks for needless kit - like sintered ground plates or foil.. just tell it like it is - hopefully to the benefit of all.

Jerry.. sorry ol' boy. if you feel that way.. but err well.. good bye !.
When you have an objective and technical argument to offer, please feel free to add.

(regular)

17/05/2008 21:55

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Oh come on

capt slarty has a lot of experience which we can all learn by.

A lower insulator is not needed from a rf point but corrosion may be a problem so attach the hot Rf in a way corrosion won't be a problem.

RF earths are good with copper strips but also just a cable to an earth also works. (my ref earth cable just attaches to the sternrail and its performance is brilliant. )

So forums give us a chance to hear other ways to skin a cat

(regular)

17/05/2008 23:10

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

>>So forums give us a chance to hear other ways to skin a cat <<

Precisely! Something CS appears to forget. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone disagreeing with me, but he does, hence I presume, his very rude remarks.

That aside, it's the assumption that I (and others) don't know anything about the subject that annoys me. What I and others posted re the installation is perfectly correct and acceptable. Of course, there are other ways that will work to a greater or lesser degree, but why not be pleasant about it and agree to disagree.

He has a way of upsetting people (see some of the recent posts) and has now succeeded in that endeavour with me.

It's a shame because, as you say, we can each learn from each other.

(regular)

18/05/2008 11:34

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Jerry
If you want to offer an objective reason WHY one thing is 'perfectly correct' - no worries. We can discuss. but I see no hard facts in your reasoning.
If you want a techy discussion, fire away..

RF is not a finite subject, theory and practice no not tally in the real world. IF you say a lower insulator is needed - WHY >>> ?
or strip foil ? WHY ?? how is it better than wire in the real world..?

WHY is a dynaplate 'good' - I can tell you it ISNT.. not needed..
WHAT are you trying to achieve with a 'groundplane' system that a single wire counterpoise on the apx freq of use cannot offer ?.. WHY do hams use multiple counterpoise wires in some vertical installations ?.

Why spend money on things you dont need.
Most boats have a through hull as a start - and often ALL they need for groundplane.. WHY NOT use 5p capacitors to link an rf ground using heavy items ?

People are too quick to post WHAT THEY HAVE READ - not, what the have understood and experimented with in an objective way..

Mind you, you wont reply, ignore user is a great thing.
Joe

(regular)

18/05/2008 17:58

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

A number of us have good effective installations and possibly they are all different, some might be more efficient than others...For what it's worth I have used 2 backstay insulators with the lower as close to the deck as possible to minimise the length of GTO15 connecting it to the SGC230 ATU. Some folk have had very good results using a manual atu and hoisting a wire to the top of the mast...Others have cut dipoles for ,say, 20m and have cracking signals. For a ground on previous boat I used 2 plates and tied in ss fuel tank and the engine; in current boat I've no ground plates and have just used ss water tank and tied in the engine and can extend this to a keel bolt although that isn't necessary since it works well enough as it is. I've used 3" copper tape throughout the ground system - something to do with RF currents preferring large surface area - I think it has a specific name which someone out there will remind me...xxxxx effect? I also use a number of ferrites but still have a problem with the AutoHelm, but I can live with that. Battery drain can be a problem so as a matter og "good" practice I rarely Tx at more than 20/30W. Good idea to have a small digital VoltMeter aboard for fault finding, etc.

(regular)

18/05/2008 19:15

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

You havent offered any data driven evidence either, just your usual boorish rude stuff making the assumption that you and only you know all the answers.
I just don't understand why you have to make everything personal.
Why dont you just give it a rest?

Or go sailing perhaps?

No?

Thought not.

I am not going to put you on ignore, but I will see the back of you eventually.

(regular)

19/05/2008 00:16

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

I think transmitter installation is now on a par with ensigns, anchors, speed cameras and power boat wash.

In fact for ignorance expounded with fanatical ferocity it perhaps exceeds some of the above.

I long since gave up posting advice/opinions on the subject despite >40 years professional and amateur experience.

I would suggest that everyone should read the theory then do their own thing and learn from experience.

PS

I think the term everyone is looking for is "Skin Effect"

The effect of high frequency currents to flow on or close to the surface of a conductor. At the sort of frequencies we use it has a very small effect. It has a greater effect at VHF but no-one seems to get excited about that.

Everyone gets excited about skin effect in the earth lead but of course they invariably forget that exactly the same effect occurs in the aerial - frequently parts of the aerial will be carrying much higher currents than the earth lead.

The other thought about earthing is that the earth you use on a boat is the sea. Whether you use tape or wire, a sintered plate or a keel bolt or wet string whatever, the only thing they all do is connect to the sea. That is unless you use a true counterpoise which is a resonant component and will only work on a few frequencies (odd quarter waves)

And thats my lot on the subject - no doubt everyone will tell me i'm wrong - again.

(regular)

19/05/2008 10:07

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Hi Beadle!!

Yes, I'm beginning to think you're right and, as you'll note from my earlier post, there are several different ways to get a result in this field. I wouldn't think anyone (except C slarty) would disagree.

I take your point re the tape, but even if the improving affect is small (I didn't think it was 'small' actually, but real experts will know) I think it's worth having, bearing in mind the relatively tiny additional cost over a cable in a full installation.

I just wish people would post, as you have done, in a sensible, pleasant way. Why there is the need to be abusive and INSIST that a (their) method is right, to the exclusion of all others, baffles me.

Like many on here, I have learned a huge amount over the years, some things I completely disagree with, and others have been a revelation.

No doubt you have an HF transceiver installation and you are happy with its performance. I installed mine after seeking much written and direct advice (my ham radio club) and installation experts. It's been installed since 1996 and has done three Med cruises and several transats, and still has a SWR of almost 1:1 which is good enough for us.

I mentioned Herb's net in an earlier post, and it was he who, on several occasions, asked us to act as a relay for three other yachts as our transmissions were so cystal clear and loud. In fact on the last trip when we reached the Azores, two boats asked us to check and modify their installations to 'try and get it as good as yours was coming across!'

Certainly not blowing my own trumpet, but merely pointing out that my system works, so does yours and, no doubt, does C slarty's. Why then the need for abuse from the latter?

(regular)

20/05/2008 09:00

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Er...blimey. Was off-line for a couple of days and didn't realise this thread had turned into a bun fight! Thanks to all for your opinions but please try to avoid the play-ground scraps. It makes reading your valued advice a little more frustrating.

I forgot something off my list: Pactor modem. Now is a modem ONLY for airmail or can I download synoptic charts/grib files with it? Ultimately this is why I would like SSB - to download weather data. I guess the USB version of the modem would be best (I'm bored of buying USB to serial converter cables!).

(regular)

20/05/2008 10:17

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

And thats my lot on the subject - no doubt everyone will tell me i'm wrong - again.

**************************************************

You replace Captn S at the top of the class....

(regular)

20/05/2008 10:24

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Quote:

I forgot something off my list: Pactor modem. Now is a modem ONLY for airmail or can I download synoptic charts/grib files with it? Ultimately this is why I would like SSB - to download weather data. I guess the USB version of the modem would be best (I'm bored of buying USB to serial converter cables!).

Pactor can let you use Airmail (if Ham licenced) Sailmail (if HF licenced). The Airmail software (which confusingly is the same software whether you use Airmail or Sailmail!) has a built in weatherfax viewer and GRIB downloader. You can therefore receive weatherfax, GRIB data with the pactor (although you can receive weatherfax without a modem).

We have the Pactor IIex version - which is a bit of a pain as you need to have a serial - usb converter (which took ages to configure in Windows). The USB version should be better for you. Some versions you will need to plug the radio and the modem to the computer (to allow the computer to talk to the modem and to control the radio), other versions (Pro version I think) you just plug the modem to the computer and the modem controls the radio itself - so less wiring.

Also, with the Pactor, you can send position reports to something like Google Maps so people can track your progress.

Go for it ...

Jonny

whipper_snapper

(regular)

20/05/2008 10:32

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

JVCcom can use the pactor for getting weather fax, RTTY, navtex etc. The quality may be marginally better than via a soundcard, the control is better, but the main advantage is that you don't have to keep grovelling behind the radio to change plugs when you want to change.

The serial version of the pactor would always be my preference over the usb version, but some will disagree.

Also, having the PC control the radio directly rather than through the modem has advantages. Notably there are several other useful programmes for doing various things that work much better if you give them control of the radio.

(regular)

20/05/2008 10:39

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Apart from the serial-usb converter we have found the PIIex to work well so far. Someone did mention increased RF noise using the USB modem, but that was just a second hand comment I heard so cannot rationalise this.

We have Meteoscan Pro which receives fax, RTTY and Navtex - as you say that likes to control the radio itself directly. Still need to fettle with the setting on this to get the picture perfect though (but the Airmail fax seems to be fine so must be the Meteoscan settings).

I haven't used JVCcom - whats it like compared to Meteoscan?

Jonny

whipper_snapper

(regular)

20/05/2008 12:16

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Quote:

I haven't used JVCcom - whats it like compared to Meteoscan?

I compared them a long time ago and developed a hatred of Meteoscan - can't remember why now! Maybe because it was unusable until you paid ? Can Meteoscan get data from the Pactor ?

USB vs Serial: I had big problems with a USB-serial converter crashing when I transmitted. But that with an old and primitive modem. However, SGC themselves appear to acknowledge this problem. I can't find the quote now on their site, but they say that USB cannot be shielded from HF because they run at the same frequency and that seems to be what drove them to offer the bluetooth option for the USB modem.

But a simpler and cheaper option seems to be to go for the IIex and connect with a PCMCIA-serial card. This is a dead simple and flexible solution which provides a 'true' serial connection(s) (I have a card with 2 serial ports) which can be used for other things.

(regular)

20/05/2008 12:24

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Quote:

Maybe because it was unusable until you paid ? Can Meteoscan get data from the Pactor?

I've got the full version (pro not lite) so not sure on the first point.
Yes, it does talk to the Pactor.

Agree re the PCMCIA cards - the only thing I find is that in general PCMCIA uses a LOT of power (halves the battery usage time). I had a serial - usb lead that I managed to get working - seems fine using Sailmail, but if I were to go out and buy something it would def be a PCMCIA card.

Jonny

(regular)

20/05/2008 12:45

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Just out of interest, if you would like to learn a bit more about skin effect there is a very good analysis here:

http://fermi.la.asu.edu/w9cf/skin/index.html.

Its done by an "amateur" but a very very knowledgeable one.

(regular)

20/05/2008 13:29

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Hi Beadle,

I'm getting an error message on your link. I'd like to see what the guy had to say too, but getting no response to any of the sub-links.

(regular)

20/05/2008 20:50

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

A bit tied up at the moment, I'll try to find it again later.

(regular)

20/05/2008 21:41

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Perhaps try:

http://fermi.la.asu.edu/w9cf/skin/index.html

(regular)

21/05/2008 08:12

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Quote:

Perhaps try:

http://fermi.la.asu.edu/w9cf/skin/index.html

Good Lord Beadle, my maths stopped at 'What is the value of 'B' in the equation A=B, where A=2 !!!!

If you can understand that lot - serious respect and salutations!!

I've saved it in case Einstein is ever resurrected, but hope there's a simpler explanation somewhere for idiots like me.

Many thanks for taking the trouble though

(regular)

21/05/2008 09:22

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Yes

I know what you mean.

The Maxwell stuff in the first bit makes your brain ache, but then I don't think even Maxwell really understood it.

Its looking at the effects on the magnetic and electrical fields.

The real point is that there is much more to this than a simplistic DC loss type of argument.

Really you have to look at the whole thing, aerial, ATU and earth as a single "system" - which has an input from the xmitter and whose output is radiated energy in the form of electrical and magnetic fields.

Certainly changing the bit from the ATU to earth will have an effect but changing from a wire to a tape will only be a small effect at the sort of frequencies, say 2 - 20 MHz, that we use. Particularly when you consider the "aerial" part of the system which is usually stainless steel wire and is perhaps 10x longer than the earth bit and is affected by proximity to other conductors.

Perhaps a bit like polishing your car to make it go faster by reducing wind resistance.

whipper_snapper

(regular)

21/05/2008 09:39

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

I am no expert and don't want to get drawn into this. But my take is that the variables once your signal leaves your antenna are so huge that you can not usefully make claims such as 'this works perfectly well for me so there is no point in doing more' or 'I get 5x9 reports from around the world so my system must be perfect' or 'dynaplates are useless'. All you CAN do is listen to the real experts*, listen to a large body of opinion (old wives tales possibly) and do what appears to make the 'best' theoretical installation given the practical limitations you face.

And for me the mass of old wives (including plenty of professionals) are saying that grounding should be by short runs of broad tape and have the max surface area in contact with the sea. And that is not hard to achieve, so I do it.

We all know that truly awful installations will occasionally achieve amazing performance, and similarly that truly wonderful systems will sometimes fail to make a contact that all the predictions say should be easy.

* I am not sure how to identify these; but there are some pretty obvious bu11shitt3rs around!!

(regular)

21/05/2008 10:46

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Yep! Perfect sumnation!!

(regular)

21/05/2008 11:23

Re: SSB Radio - Please check my check list

Yes I wouldn't disagree.

If you look at the trouble end expense that goes into a professional installation for even a very basic transmitter and receiver and compare that to an installation in a boat then almost every aspect in the boat will be considerably sub optimal.

Getting worked up about any single aspect is quite pointless, as you rightly say the variables in the path losses from transmitter to receiver are so great and so variable that the any single aspect of the boat installation is not going to have any great significance

Which I think is where I came in on this.

And its not just us amateurs who have problem.

Look up the story of "Cobra Mist" which was a "over the horizon" radar built on Orford Ness - money no object cold war installation - built by very experienced US company - and they couldn't make it work. The received signal was affected by noise problems that they could not find the source of.

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