Pendlecats
(regular)
24/06/2008 20:21
What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

For our next boat, I am looking in a new direction for us, mainly for onboard living space.

Were used to the traditional style cruising yacht hull shape, solid all weather types, but really we don’t need one to take us safely round the southern oceans etc.. just marina to anchorage now and then with say 2/3 day sailing stints max.
We have an interest in say the Legend (36,38 or41) style or say a SO but never sailed in anything like this.

Thing is people say they get a bit uncomfortable if out in a bit of a swell, what do they mean – with the flatter bottom is it bumpy, banging or teeth crashing – what’s a bit of a swell? Force 4, 8?

What about holding on to things (there very wide and open), or are all these aimed at creating fear.



I mean, they cant be that bad surely, or no one would ever leave the marina in one.


KellysEye
(regular)
24/06/2008 21:45
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

If you mean the American built Hunter Legend (very swept back spreaders and no backstay) then they are very lightly built. The Americans call them 'lake boats', in the sense of what they are fit for.

Pendlecats
(regular)
24/06/2008 22:00
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

I must admit to hearing that, people have them around the UK (don't know if they leave the marina's in them), what about Sun Odessy's etc, I have heard similar comments about comfort at sea with them.

Would you fear for your life, or a bit like going down a cobble street in an old car?

Just trying to get an opinion on how much sacrifice the modern production boat is to the benefits of space, in our endeavours to find our future.


roly_voya
(regular)
24/06/2008 23:06
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Yes it is the flat bottem, yes it is both teeth rattling and potentially dangerous, boats have been abandonded not because they a sinking but because the motion was so sevear people where breaking limbs (see reports from the Fasnet). it doesnt need a F8 just a short steep chop, F4 and a couple of knots of tide the wrong way will make life horrenduse and breack crockery. On the other hand they are very fast and exciting, they are big dingies and sail like them.
One thing to watch is the plated load, if you are used to traditional heavyweights you are use to being able to chuck anything on board without worrying. When I looked at the load level on a Bavaria 34 I found it was less all up than the wt of my ground takle and that had to include fuel, stores and all the boat kit. You need to be strick about keeping it light and if you go over stability can be seriously jepodised. (From memory I think the bavaria had a max load about 1/2 ton above light ship wt)


Bav34
(regular)
24/06/2008 23:26
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Quote:

Yes it is the flat bottem, yes it is both teeth rattling and potentially dangerous, boats have been abandonded not because they a sinking but because the motion was so sevear people where breaking limbs (see reports from the Fasnet). it doesnt need a F8 just a short steep chop, F4 and a couple of knots of tide the wrong way will make life horrenduse and breack crockery.




Good grief!

Thank God you have warned us.

To think that we actually survived 10 weeks of force 7's in Southern Brittany last year and were actually daring to set off for North Brittany next Tuesday for another 6 weeks.

Oh what a fool I was to even think of such a thing

I suppose that the only comfort will be that the broken crockery won't be a problem as we won't be able to use it due to our shattered limbs


tony_d
(regular)
25/06/2008 06:13
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

modern boats are uncomfortable because they are fast. 6 knots to windward into a 2m chop and our boat is banging so hard you can barely stand up below. In the sort of boats I started sailing in in the 70's 6 knots to windward was a dream. You would be lucky to manage 3 into any sort of sea. Slow a modern boat down to 3 knots and the motion is the same as the old boats - you just have a lot more room to moan about it in.

I have taken our Bav into the southern ocean during a round tasmania trip. Worst we saw was 55knots of wind and 4m seas but it stood up pretty well and much drier than I remember old boats being.


TigaWave
(regular)
25/06/2008 07:58
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Another can of worms here...all boats will be uncomfortable or dangerous in some types of sea, but comparing twisters, Rival 38's, Sweden 38, sigma 36, old half,3/4 tonners and a 1991 Bav. The Bav was the prefferred boat for rough weather. Fine entry heavy boats dig into steep waves take on board huge ammounts of water and pitch to very steep angles. Wider flatter bottomed boats will slam (but you can often shift the angle of attack to help)

My Bav hove to in 10m swell with lots of wind and breaking waves and was comfortable below, it also was happy with a following breaking sea for a couple of days of a similar size, lifting her bum as waves passed under. fine entry heavy yachts were getting cockpit filling seas from astern and were not happy, lots of extra loads as the boat was slow to react to the approaching waves.

With any boat you sail it to the conditions, and you treat them very differently. Pushing them hard while racing is very different from cruising and I'd agree with crockery smashing slamming on 3/4 tonners of 1980 going upwind in steep seas, where a Rival 38 would a softer ride.


FullCircle
(regular)
25/06/2008 08:22
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Coo, I wouldnt have one of those Bavs if they only hold 1/2 tonne. Try my Jeanneau SUn Odyssey 35 instead. 2.1 tonnes on the plate.
There, thats better isnt it?

I have only had mine out in Force 3 or less, but I sail it upright, as it says in the instructions. Any more than 10 degrees of heel and its going slower. There seems to be some merit in the argument that I will be moored up, in the shower block and then the pub before the MAB hoves into view even. Iwill also be far more comfortable for the rest of my stay. I calculate that 85% of my cruising time is stood still either at anchor or tied to a pontoon, so that means I want to shorten the journey as much as poss, so I will put up with a bit of discomfort on passage to achieve this.


alant
(regular)
25/06/2008 08:47
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?


I have taken our Bav into the southern ocean during a round tasmania trip. Worst we saw was 55knots of wind and 4m seas but it stood up pretty well and much drier than I remember old boats being.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

To windward???


Tranona
(regular)
25/06/2008 10:23
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Very muddled thinking here. My Bav 37 displaces 5.36 tonnes. Its "capacity" is 8 crew, which at 80kg a person is well over the 1/2 tonne you suggest! I don't have the full RCD certificate with me but like Fullcircle I recall a figure of around 2 tonnes.

Anyway, it is not weight per se that is important, but where it is placed and how it used. Big lumps of lead at the bottom of a boat serve little purpose except to require heavy construction to take the loads and reduce the volume of overall space that can be allocated to other uses.

As to load carrying capacity, this is a function of waterline plane area, not weight. Lighter displacement boats sink less than heavy displacement boats for a given weight. Suggest you go back over PBO back numbers for a series of articles on the subject by Andrew Simpson (who lives and cruises aboard a very modern boat of his own design).

The Fasnet event is not a good example to use - mainly because the boats that were most criticised were built to IOR rules and much of modern design thinking, particulalrly on stability has developed in response to those criticisms.


Tranona
(regular)
25/06/2008 10:41
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

In direct answer to your question, suggest you charter a boat for a week to find out. Either in UK to get the local experience (ie weather conditions, tides etc). Or if you want some sun go to Greece and make a holiday out of it. If you go to the Aegean in the summer you will get some serious wind at times to test out whether you like modern boats in heavy weather.

This is exactly what we did (I have a traditional wooden boat in the UK). Ended up buying a Bavaria which is mostly a floating platform for drifting around the Ionian, but I have had it out in the odd spot of heavy weather and have no concerns about its ability - certainly exceeds mine!


Pendlecats
(regular)
25/06/2008 11:25
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Quote:

Another can of worms here...



Your not kiddin’. The views of this are quite strong, unfortunately the only boating people I know personally have heavy boats and are unhelpful and the lightest I have been on is a Gibsea.

Interesting that some of the comfort issues could be down to speed, SWMBO has seen a Legend (or as a mate pronounced Legg-end) and cant initially see the difference between this and the Bev’s, Ben’s etc…

If sailing and caught out in poor weather, slowing down could help, but it’s concerning that just simply being out can be bad.


Pendlecats
(regular)
25/06/2008 11:37
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Quote:

I calculate that 85% of my cruising time is stood still either at anchor or tied to a pontoon



This is exactly what I see our life being, we are more likely to be living on her and sailing to get somewhere as a break. I am prepared to put up with some sailing comfort issues – especially if by slowing down a bit this is only slight

The threads brought up concerned about loading issues, this I’ll look into as we would need to carry a bit


Pendlecats
(regular)
25/06/2008 11:43
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

We hope to charter a boat in September, as there is a choice I posted this in advance of booking anything.

Some of what I'm after is do these types of boat actually differ, or are they more or less all the same when out.


Tranona
(regular)
25/06/2008 11:49
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Think the difference is that the Legend majors on accommodation (big fridge, television, vast aft cabin etc) and are less "performance" orientated. They never really caught on here, despite setting up a factory and aggressive marketing.

Note you have a Folkboat. Obviously any modern boat will be very different, but they are very different design concepts and it is a nonsense to try and make any direct comparison.

I am in the unusual position to be able to compare the merits of the two different design approaches as I have both an old wooden boat and a Bavaria. Both are perfect for the use I put them to. I have wandered around the Channel for nearly 30 years in my Eventide, including single handed cross channel and love it. However, SWMBO only likes being anchored in Poole harbour, enjoying the rich glow of the mahogany and the hiss of the Taylors cooking supper. My grandchildren are going to spend their first night on board this year - big adventure!

However in the Bavaria, a 40 mile passage from Paxos to Gouvia with a force 3/4 over the quarter, boat triimmed to sail herself, cold beer from the fridge - what could be better. Have done much the same passage with a NW 4/5, reefed down with the engine ticking over, autopilt on, sprayhood up. Square topped waves just like the Solent so a bit bangy and wet but never scary.

As I suggested, charter one if you are serious about going this route. If you don't like it at least you base that position on some experience, not on guesswork and prejudice.

Good luck!


HoratioHB
(regular)
25/06/2008 12:17
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Just spent 7 months in the Caribbean in a new SO 42i. Met loads of other liveaboards in all sorts of boats. Would not trade mine for any of them - why?
Comfort - large, open, spacious, especially the cockpit which was the envy of all those who came on board. Loads of handholds absolutely no problem moving about in any sea and we had some bloody rough passages on occasions.
Manoevarability - we can steer backwards in Marinas!! and we don't have a bow thruster. Talk to an Island Packet owner how he goes stern to - the answer is with a lot of help from shore!!
Speed - bloody quick, I did Antigua to Guadaloupe at an average of 8.8 knots (GPS not log). When we left Grenada in with three Island Packets - we left 1 hour later and arrived 2.5 hours before them. Getting somewhere 25% faster than a traditional boat is worth a hell of a lot.
Sea Keeping - yes she does slam head into sea especially when motoring - so we don't go!! Thats the beauty of living aboard. But once sailing she is no worse than any other type I have sailed (37years) it all depends on the wave and swell type as much as the hull design.
Would I go further offshore? - we were parked in Nelsons Dockyard in Antigua for Christmas along with most of the Blue Water rally boats, many of which were of the same type -seemed to get across the Atlantic alright. We have a hankering for the Pacific in a year or two and I am not changing my boat.
So do I consider modern yacht designs uncomfortable? - no more so than any other boat. A traditional hull may be slightly more sea kindly in some sea states but I will have been in the bar with a large one chilling out, while he is still bouncing around. Meanwhile SWMBO and I can fully stretch out on either side of the cockpit and watch another brilliant sunset, rum in hand.


Guapa
(regular)
25/06/2008 13:07
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Quote:

the only boating people I know personally have heavy boats




Maybe they know something you don't (yet)


Robin
(regular)
25/06/2008 13:48
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Well said.

Our Jeanneau Sun Legende 41 is rather older, dating from 1988, but has all the space and pace (the original of the class was a French One Tonner and French Admirals Cup team member). We go upwind at 7kts at 28degs to the apparent wind (22degs is possible in flat seas but VMG is no better). Normally she doesn't slam under sail, but if we were to motor straight into as head sea then yes the flatter section forwards can slam. However, I remember well a trip along the North Brittany coast, sailing dead upwind with F5/6 wind blowing against a spring tide. We caught up and overtook a similar sized heavily built long keeled wooden ketch that was motor sailing. He was pitching heavily and throwing up loads of spray and was certainly not at all comfortable, yet we were sat up on the cockpit coamings, leaning into our Position A backrests on the dodgers, sprayhood DOWN and really enjoying a 7kt beat and with wall to wall grins. So who says you need a long keeled heavyweight to be comfortable!


Tranona
(regular)
25/06/2008 14:38
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Yes, they differ in much the same way as Focus, Golf, Astra, Megane etc differ. Most builders have two ranges, one more "sporty" than the other eg Beneteau First (sporty) and Oceanis (cruisy). At the top end sizewise there has been a move towards deck saloons eg Bavaria Vision.

These different ranges are designed to fill all the gaps in the target markets. Just like cars they may be based on the same hull design, but have different rigs and keels, posh sails, more luxurious interiors etc as the builder tries to meet specific customer requirements.

This becomes much clearer when you start looking seriously and try to match what is on offer with your requirements. As this thread has shown, many people use modern boats successfully for passage making and live aboards.

Despite what some might say, the one thing you won't have to generally worry about is standard of build and quality of materials. Although, as with cars, the odd dog gets through, if it is a specific model it gets sorted very quickly, or equally a specific boat gets fixed early in its life.


Adaero
(regular)
25/06/2008 14:59
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

I will probably get shot down in flames here but have you considered a Catamaran for live aboard? This isn't bait for a multi/mono debate.
Advantages: -
Living space all on one level, less motion in heavier seas (though a very different motion), obviously sails a lot flatter, better performance, a 36ft cat has the interior space of a 45ft mono, the wife will love it, you can sail at 8+ knots and you won't spill your beer, no gimbaled stoves or need to tie everything down, run your watch from the dry comfort of the saloon with an autopilot remote.
Disadvantages: -
Cost, they are a lot more expensive to buy and to berth, much more sensitive to weight so leave the best china at home, feel, they don't give you the same feedback as a mono.

Worth a thought.
Adaero


Pendlecats
(regular)
25/06/2008 18:05
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

The space advantages are really coming out with the experience of you lot.
"Tranona" Has a very good point in chartering, I never considered UK which could be more convenient in time and lower cost, the general impression I get is that Bav’s and your SO’s are amongst the most popular of them, Must admit that the possibility of some time in the future venturing much further is helped when these types have done it.

We looked into the Legend as I quite like the main build and SWMBO liked the space, now I must admit I would not get a boat that is unproven so I think our charter is likely to be a SO – We may have a chance of crewing on a Bav of a friend of a friend.


Pendlecats
(regular)
25/06/2008 18:11
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Quote:

Quote:

the only boating people I know personally have heavy boats



Maybe they know something you don't (yet)



SWMBO said my Dad'll turn in his grave, I said buying a plastic boat would do that - with what were planning he'll be spinning.


Pendlecats
(regular)
25/06/2008 18:17
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Considered a cat, looked at a Prout, was frightend off mainly with the marina costs, but also they look so big (I have a hard enough job with just one Bow and Stern let alone two).
SWMBO hasn't been on one yet thank god or this decision would take too long.


KellysEye
(regular)
25/06/2008 18:24
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

If you are sailing for two to three days then you are within a fairly accurate weather forecast. As such, IMO, a lightweight boat is fine.

We've sailed lots of different Beneteaus (First and Oceanis), Jenneaus and Gibseas and, frankly, didn't like them. All flat bottom fin keel boats slam going upwind, they all broach and they are all skittish.

Some get into deep trouble. For example some good friends of ours were delivering a Jeanneau 42 from the BVIs to Antigua in a near gale and it was slamming big time. It sank NW of Antigua in short order and the sinking was put down to hull failure or a water tank in the bows breaking free and puncturing the hull..

However most owners of such boats (with obvious exceptions on this forum) don't go out in such conditions, so going light shouldn't be a problem.


Tranona
(regular)
25/06/2008 19:05
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

I think it would be more helpful to me and the OP if you could give us the benefit of your experiences with your preferred kind of boat rather than making dismissive statements about other types.

This thread unlike many on this topic has been positive and helpful in the advice given to the OP who wanted to know about experiences with modern boats. And if you read them all you will find many use them successfully in the kind of conditions you describe. Something in the same vein from a different perspective would indeed be useful.

Look forward to hearing from you


Morgana
(regular)
26/06/2008 13:34
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

I've got a 40' Oceanis.....

i've sailed it in upto 40kts of wind, and large seas, and it handles them without any real concern at all...

Yes, we've had a bit of slamming when motoring upwind into large seas, but even then, a good helm can reduce the slamming significantly.

Never once have I worried about hull strength or integrity.

I would happily (and indeed intend to) cross oceans in her.

We too can echo the comments above... in perhaps 20kts of wind, we are trucking along, and can often overtake many heavier boats who are busy pushing the waves out of the way rather than going over them!...


Guapa
(regular)
26/06/2008 13:50
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Quote:

in perhaps 20kts of wind, we are trucking along, and can often overtake many heavier boats who are busy pushing the waves out of the way rather than going over them!...




Sounds like a challenge to me

Care to put your money where your mouth is? How about 50p?
Sails at dawn!


Morgana
(regular)
26/06/2008 14:21
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

50p...... what are you... made of money?.......

Guapa
(regular)
26/06/2008 16:39
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Me? Last of the true 'big spenders'



KellysEye
(regular)
26/06/2008 17:08
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

>I think it would be more helpful to me and the OP if you could give us the benefit of your experiences with your preferred kind of boat rather than making dismissive statements about other types.

Actually I'm a fan of all boats provided they are used for purpose - I certainly didn't mean to dismiss boats, even Hunters have their place.

For example it is possible to day sail from England to Turkey with just a few overnights. A lightweight boat can do that easily with no problems. Go the straight over Biscay route and you risk facing severe weather. So I'd choose a different boat for that type of sailing.

Specifically, if I was doing daysails and weekends (even long total distances as mentioned) I'd choose a lightweight boat (although I don't particularly enjoy sailing them), they are cheaper.

For offshore long distances I'd choose either a long fin and full skeg, encapsulated keel and straight spreaders or a long keel with cutaway forefoot.

In terms of going the lightweight route for short passages and heavier built/more seaworhty for long passages that's exactly what we did over the years. We now own a long keeler which we are very happy with.

Certainly the lightweights are faster but I'll give an example of why I wouldn't want one in certain conditions. We were in a force seven for twenty four hours, peaking at eight for an hour. Seas were about fifteen feet, wind from the east, there was a northerly swell of four to five feet and a south easterly swell of two to three feet, going downwind. So the sea and wind conditions were unpleasant but not severe. However the boat wasn't rolling it was corkscrewing violently. In such conditions spade rudders and keel bolts can fail - and do fairly often.

As I said, horses for courses.


Tranona
(regular)
26/06/2008 18:43
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Many thanks for your explanation. I would, however take up a couple of issues.

I suppose, firstly there is growing empirical evidence that many people make ocean passages in boats that do not have long keels or skeg hung rudders.

Secondly the reference to "lightweight", which I am not sure whether the reference is to the construction or the displacement - in which case it needs to be related to some other characteristic such as length. Weight per se is largely irrelevant, it is how it is used as I pointed out in an earlier post. Simply having a lot of weight in ballast does not necessarily make a boat more seaworthy. Indeed the first consequence is heavier (but not necessarily stronger) construction and heavier gear to deal with the larger sail area and bigger motor to move the weight. As to strength of construction, modern boats use materials in an engineered way, rather than just adding more in the hope that the structure will be stronger.

Thirdly, keels and rudders do not fail with the frequency you suggest. The three recent reported keel failures, one in South Africa and two in the English channel were all extreme racing boats (at least one with a fundamental design and construction fault, the reports on the other two are not out yet). Of the two recent reported failures of rudders, one was a composite stock of a type that is rarely used in cruising boats. The other, well investigated by the Irish authoriities involved a mass produced German yacht. Its aluminium stock was made by a company that supplies most of the major European boat builders. Not only could the exhaustive investigation by a German metallurgical consulting firm not find a definitive cause of the failure, but there are no other reported failures of this design, even though thousands are in service all over the world. Incidentally the yacht in question was a commercial sail training boat and had successfully crossed the Atlantic both ways without any problems.

This does not mean to say, of course that there are not failures, and in the early days of "modern" boat design and construction a lot was learned, but a statement such as your last line "spade rudders and keel bolts can fail - and do so fairly often" is an "urban myth" that is not supported by any credible evidence. Such statements gain credence if they are made and not challenged as they take on the appearance of a "truth". If you are going to make such statements support them by documented independent evidence.

I am pleased you like your heavy displacement steel boat - there was a time when I hankered after just such a beast. However the world has moved on and as many other posters have said in this thread, based on their own experience modern boats are quite capable of doing more than "day sails and a few overnights".

Happy sailing in the boat of your choice!


HoratioHB
(regular)
26/06/2008 19:03
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

I really take exception to the word 'often' in the Kellys Eye's post, firstly its not true and secondly its scaremongering. The word infers a common occurence and it is not. Yes some rudders have failed on the ARC etc I am not aware of any keel bolts however. They normally fail becasue some clot has rammed the keel into something hard and clots are not only to be found in modern AWBs. I seem to recall at least two rigging failures in recent months in 'stronger boats' yet no-one is going about saying there is a design failure endemic to these types. Bearing in mind the number of miles all boats do there are bound to be failures in all types, I get fed up with people focusing on ones that seem to mitigate against modern designs. I feel totally safe in my flat bottomed plastic, easily manoeverable, fast and comfortable modern boat.!!

Tranona
(regular)
26/06/2008 19:05
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Glad I am not a lone voice!

Cheers


HoratioHB
(regular)
26/06/2008 19:13
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Just out of interest and mentioning no names, we met a couple this year in Guadaloupe who had done the ARC in the epitome of the heavy traditional steel 'offshore' boat. They went home early quite fed up with lack of room and modern facilities. Oh and they felt the crossing had been really uncomfortable despite being able to 'cleave' the seas. Having seen the 'opposition' I would not be surprised to see them next year in a spade ruddered narrow keeled AWB.

ironmaiden
(regular)
26/06/2008 19:54
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Re; "old heavy traditional steel off shore boat" has anyone heard of a full length keel droping off one of them ?.....

KellysEye
(regular)
26/06/2008 21:28
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

>I suppose, firstly there is growing empirical evidence that many people make ocean passages in boats that do not have long keels or skeg hung rudders.

Yes they do and most have no problems, it's simply I would prefer to reduce the odds of rudder/keel problems.

>Secondly the reference to "lightweight", which I am not sure whether the reference is to the construction...

I meant construction. If you strip the interior linings out of many lightly constructed boats you can see daylight through the hull. If people are comfortable with that in a gale it's fine by me but again it would worry me. Also I remember seeing a four month old Bavaria that had been lightly used and already one of the bulkheads had parted from the hull. To me that was scary.

>Thirdly, keels and rudders do not fail with the frequency you suggest..."spade rudders and keel bolts can fail - and do so fairly often" is an "urban myth" that is not supported by any credible evidence.

I wish there was a worldwide database of all rudder/keel etc failures I suspect it would open a few eyes. I can only speak about what I've seen and somebody mentioned the ARC. We've done the finish line twice and seen the damaged boats come in. Understandably it's not something the ARC publicises but I can assure you that both years boats were coming in with keel bolt problems and rudder problems/failure. Some boats were abandoned. Out of interest, goosenecks are another regular point of failure (people don't tie the boom down properly). Looking around the yards in Trinidad a month or so ago there were at least half a dozen sloops having their keel bolts repaired. There was also a cat that was being delivered SA to USA and the 'bulkhead' on the main beam had fractured. It's sister ship disappeared and was never found. I could go on but wouldn't claim any statistical accuracy it's just what I see.

>I am pleased you like your heavy displacement steel boat - there was a time when I hankered after just such a beast. However the world has moved on and as many other posters have said in this thread, based on their own experience modern boats are quite capable of doing more than "day sails and a few overnights".

Yes indeed, it's just not something I would want to do. Everyone to their own I think.

> Happy sailing in the boat of your choice!

And to you!


Kioni
(regular)
26/06/2008 21:39
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Come on hlb, why don't you tell us what you think of Island Packets?

I've manouvred mine around backwards in marinas and spun her around in her own length in a few tight spots, all without a bow thruster.

Haven't found much shortage of space aboard either come to think of it.

Speed? Well, I go cruising to enjoy the sea experience as well, not just race from one wine bar to the next (mobo bestest for this purpose shorely?)

So, in summary, yes I support the argument that modern cruising yacht designs like Island Packets are in fact supremely comfortable, with a sea kindly motion and lots of accomodation

Boat choice is personal, especially with family involved when all must feel safe and comfortable with the choice. Some will like to fly around on the hairy edge, others won't. All emotional, subjective, with rationales like this for one's own decision mostly argued after the fact.

All imho of course


Spicemariner
(regular)
26/06/2008 23:03
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Well I am a fan of the AWB and have crossed the Atlantic twice in two. GRP is translucent and you can ALWAYS see daylight through it unless it is painted. Our previous boat fell during a hurricane and two bulkheads were cracked, we were told by the surveryor and repair yard, it didn't matter as they were not structural, the repair was simple. We know of a beautiful looking steel boat that sailed to USA and was hauled for anti-fouling when the owners discovered that they could push a screwdriver through the hull. To their horror they were able to do this all over the hull and ended up abandoning the boat. Crossing the Atlantic downwind we had a 50kt storm for 10 hours our boat handled the 6m waves with no problems and was steered by our windvane steering, we were scared but the boat was fine. Looking around at the cruising boats most are GRP and production built. Bennies were the majority boat in last year's ARC and I believe all of them made it. No boat is bomb proof, even a long keeled, steel one, there are plenty of hulks on reefs everywhere. There was one in Martinique last year that you could see straight through into the heads, by the time they had stripped it back to good steel most of the hull was gone.

Tranona
(regular)
26/06/2008 23:03
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Once again you are basing your observations on hearsay. For example, in a Bavaria the bulkheads are not normally bonded to the hull structure, so how can you say that it has parted from the hull. Being able to see through a GRP hull is not a measure of strength. I ccould see through the hull of a "heavily constructed" 1970s boat that I sailed on regularly - but this is simply because the grp layup (which was nearly 1 inch thick), was transluscent. I used to lie in the forecabin watching the water rush by! Would pigmenting them black so you could not see reassure you?

Please, please look carefully at where the materials are used in the construction of boats. A hull does not have to be thick to be adequate for its main role - keeping water out. It does however, need to be strong in the parts that take the loads of rigging and keel. It should also be made such that it has high impact resistance in vulnerable areas which is why Bavarias, Jenneaus and no doubt others have Kevlar in the laminate in the bow section.

In an earlier post I compared my Bav 37 with an HR 36 on the weight issue. If you take out the ballast weight and the extra weight of the heavier equipment to drive the higher displacement of the HR you will find that the weight of materials in the basic hull/superstructure are not very different. What is different is that Bavaria can give you more volume because it uses the material in a different way.

Keel damage is almost always (by observation) the result of hitting something such as a rock, not from loads under sail. This is indeed a weak point of fin keel design. Therefore if one were planning to sail in areas where contact with rocks or coral was expected you might want to choose a different design. I remember Nigel Calder writing an eloquent article on this very topic. However, most cruisers never go near this sort of situation, so have no need to accept the compromises in design to cope with something they won't encounter.

I could not agree more about the paucity of information about failures. However, we have statutory bodies that are required to investigate incidents that result in foundering or loss of life, and they are the primary source of independent data on failures. We are also living in a world where consumers have no compunction about pursuing manufacturers that produce substandard product. By definition people who buy yachts worth many thousands or hundreds of thousands of pounds, dollars or euros know the price of fish. If there was a serious problem with substandard products, the yachting community would know about it.

Instead, as these fora show, you find more praise than complaint. The major manufacturers in Europe produce between them close on 10000 yachtsof 30 ft plus a year, probably more than the total number of "traditional" yachts of similar size in use at any one time!

As to your last comment, I could not agree more, but please don't rubbish other peoples' choices to support yours!


Pendlecats
(regular)
27/06/2008 00:42
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Thank you for your helpful and frank views.

So I don't end up with my 1000th post in one thread forgive me for adding things you didn't comment on.

From a strength point I personally think that the modern construction is very good for bad seas as they flex (even if the bulkheads don’t), some abandoned boats have gone on to sail the oceans.

The lightweight comments on build I have heard before, are relating to equipment, I have to say as an engineer I understand some of this on a few boats I've seen, but in the most IMO it is of a very good quality and very fit for purpose.
On both old and new boats I have also on occasion winced at under rated or badly placed/fitted gear.

I have heard a lot of friends comments regarding the problems of keel failures, but most appear to be talking about the same few instances, some of which are design issues (one I remember was re-worked against the designers recommendations), the Keel I think is a potential problem - if you run into anything, the long fin is likely to be better off, I tend to take the position if unsure either navigate clear or fit wheels.

The blade rudder is another Issue, I know of a full keel hung rudder type coming to grief and sinking because of rudder failure and seen the pic last week of a Hunter on the beach because the rudder fell out (both maintainance issues), I would prefer not venture too far in any boat without a backup rudder, thing is, does a blade effect the stability or comfort factor during normal conditions.

The light displacement boat floating over the waves compared to the heavy ploughing through them gives me a variation of comfort, while I see which one would be drier, I also see one cutting a groove, my opinion of the modern design is for what we as a family want, the better boat.


Pendlecats
(regular)
27/06/2008 00:46
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Personally I’d rather not get a mobo just to get there quick, although I enjoy sailing this move will probably result in less of it, mainly because it will also be home, and as such don’t expect to be able to just jump in and go anymore.

I see another thread taking shape here.


michael_w
(regular)
27/06/2008 07:55
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

The cockpit on a modern boat often has vastly better ergonomics than her traditional sister. Angled seat backs are a boon as are coamings wide enough to sit on and steer at the same time.

Decent cockpit drains are the norm, rather than the exception on a modern boat. Sure, some boats are just marina cruisers, with vast expanses of slippery gel coat and no handholds.

Take a look at the mid 1980's boats. The worst excesses of the IOR Rule are behind us, strength of construction is still very important. Below decks, the boat is expected to sleep her crew at sea and in harbour. On deck, the layouts are just about perfect.


Tranona
(regular)
27/06/2008 10:01
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Without wishing to prolong the discussion I missed one point in my rather hasty reply.

You state "I can only speak about what I have seen". There is a saying in academic enquiry "A way of seeing is a way of not seeing". In this context, if you going looking for damaged boats - and where better to look than a boatyard where boats are repaired - you will see damaged boats. However, what you will not "see" is all the undamaged boats in the yard, nor all the other boats happily sailing.

We both mention the paucity of information on failures. I suspect that this is because there are so few! We have classification societies (Lloyds, ABS etc) that set design standards and approve designs and construction; we have statutory bodies such as the MAIB; we have organisations representing yachtsmen such as the RYA and the ORC; we have large charter companies owning and running these boats all over the world; we have an active and independent specialist press; we have insurance companies that pick up some of the bills for failures. None of these seeem to see a problem on the scale you suggest - or is it a conspiracy?

None of this of course stops you from holding an opinion, but please don't generalise from a specific.


Pendlecats
(regular)
27/06/2008 11:12
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

This has had some extremely helpful personal experienses, It was SWMBO that pointed out we do have to "Live" on (with) our choice, and an artical in YM on family freindly design of new boats.

This thread I think has gripped a few nettles, and shown we can and "in our case" should consider the newer designs.

Just need to tell SWMBO is right again, as she always is

We have now got a sail lined up on a SO in August, and hope to go on a Bav in September just prior to crewing with an old stick in the mud trad sail to the Azores - Two weeks of brain washing and active debate, that'll help pass the time if winds are light.

Hope to thank some of you in person someday


Pendlecats
(regular)
27/06/2008 11:23
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Bloom in ek! 1024 views and 44 posts - I'm still watching!

The next post will be more mundane

I promise not to bring up anchors
I promise not to bring up ColReg's
I Promise ......

At least for now


asteven221
(regular)
27/06/2008 14:42
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Quote:

>
In such conditions spade rudders and keel bolts can fail - and do fairly often.




There are many thousands of AWB's out there. Can you actually back that statement up up by informing us how many have suffered from their keels and/or rudders falling off? Other than one highly publicised Bavaria Match 35 failing, I have never heard of a catastrophic failure such as you describe. With thousands sold you would think we would have heard of hmmmm.... maybe....... say....... 250 sinkings if it's "fairly often". Surely someone at BenBavJen would have twigged that there is maybe, just maybe a design/build issue if that were the case.


Kioni
(regular)
27/06/2008 18:02
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

You'd be surprised. It is a wonderful feeling to live on a boat, wake up and just decide to "go somewhere" if the weather is right. You will probably find, as we did, that you sail more, not less, and the time taken to make the trip becomes less important than just getting out and enjoying it. It's not a race, that's the whole point

Marsupial
(regular)
02/07/2008 10:11
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Ive sailed heavy boats and light boats old and new designs, long keels, deep keels, bilge keels and no keels, made of wood, steel, grp and concrete in all weathers. IMHO the if the old ones were so wonderful then the new ones would be that shape. But they're not, things have moved on and provided you buy a boat that manufacturer thinks is fit for your purpose then it will be. There are various measures you can use as a GUIDE, like STIX and category and they make sense as a starting point. My experience of crockery breaking conditions in any boat is pretty similar, in old designs perhaps a periscope would be appropriate as they tend to go through the sea rather than on it, but overall its the sea not the boat that breaks stuff, and most boats exist in the, at times, rather troubled 3 or 4 meters of the surface - not a comfortable place to be in anything when its rough IMHO that is!

The only microwave cooker I have seen ever "lost" was on a 70ft steel boat where the skipper was so convinced that his boat would somehow smooth out the 4 meter waves that he didnt tie it down, even when its lack of attachment was pointed out! With its loss came the usual comment "if you think this is bad think yourself lucky you're not in a new boat", I was thinking that on a new boat we would have been 100 miles further on perhaps out of this weather altogether and enjoying a hot something and not being drenched by every wave that tended to break over this very ponderous tin thing.


DavenHelen
(regular)
02/07/2008 15:11
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Quote:

The cockpit on a modern boat often has vastly better ergonomics than her traditional sister.




Except where you can't brace yourself from one side to the other because it is too wide. (A simple fix with a central footrest would do the trick).


Boat44
(regular)
05/07/2008 18:52
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Can I add my two pennies worth?

Nobody has mentioned money, or at least I have not seen mention of it.

Money and quality generally, but not always go hand in hand. so...

A lot of talk about Bavaris, Hunters, Catalinas etc. All cheap and bottom of the market in terms of build quality, but perfectly good "lake boats" as somebody put it. Personallly I would not want to get caught in a gale in one. And in my expereience they don't handle that well either. But for bobing around the "islands mon" great.

If you want a modern crusing ocean boat, Najad, Hallber Rassey, Malo etc. are up the top in terms of build quality, have bigger displacements so more volume and more comfortable in a swell.

Its horses for courses. If you just want to sit in marinas and do short hops when the weather is "guarnateed" to be fair, get a Bavaria, Jenneau etc. Will be more than adequate for the job. If you are interestd in longer hops cross oceans go you want somethig you don't have to worry about!

Or is you have deep pockets and want to sit in style in marina still get a Najad etc.

And before anybody askes I don't own any of the above. Never have, wouldn't mind though.

Like everything in boats its all a compromise.

But there is some excellant advise on the site, "try before you buy." You can charter anything these days from a 21 foot benetau to a 100 foot Swan. Worth spending a little money up front to make sure you are makeing a decision eyes wide open.

A
(Does that count as two pennies worth?)


Pendlecats
(regular)
05/07/2008 23:26
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Sorry for not replying sooner, now the forums up and running again.

I'm glad you indicated we may actually sail more often when living full time (though I think it'll take a while tying all our day to day stuff down).


Pendlecats
(regular)
05/07/2008 23:34
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Quote:

IMHO the if the old ones were so wonderful then the new ones would be that shape.



I would agree in the main, however some part of the new designs are cost/high production based, as such at the extremes the sail anywhere factor has suffered, but for normal sailing it would appear the moderen designs are more than just acceptable but as you say very worthy boats.


Pendlecats
(regular)
06/07/2008 00:02
Re: What do you mean "Modern yacht designs are uncomfortable"?

Thanks for the two pennies worth, will you accept a virtual pint instead.
I didn't put any price down as for me the modern designs are about the same cost just a few years in difference.

Only IMO but the new boats coming from Halberg Rhassey etc are as I would describe more towards traditional design (with the latest of materials etc.. of course).

We have in our budget to either go for a new'er modern (low cost high production lake boat - if you prefer) or an older traditional one (HalRass, Endurance etc...).

This thread has shed a lot of light on them and some misconceptions to the point of seriously looking at them.



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