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Roj1
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(regular)
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04/08/2008 12:10
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183 Days in France !
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Is anyone aware of the definite law re. staying in France on a boat?
We have been told that 'an accumulation' of 183 days or more - calculated from the 1st of January each year - means that for French Govmnt. purposes that person is 'resident' in France and therefore subject to taxation 'of all income and taxable benefits worldwide.
We were always under the impression that the 180 days had to be consecutive and could be broken by spending a few days outside France, but now we are told that each day, or part day, is included in the total calculation.
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Re: 183 Days in France !
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Correct. And the onus of proving that you've been in France less than 183 days in the calendar year is going to lie on you . . .
But the authorities only rarely start investigating how long you've been over there . . . just live-aboards and property owners occasionally face some questsions . . .
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Re: 183 Days in France !
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So look at paying tax to france than charlie brown!!!!
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Re: 183 Days in France !
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This is not just valid for France; this is the standard 'tax residency' rule for all EU countries.
However, in reality; I have never heard of any cruising liveaboard with an EU flag that had ever had any problem with this rule in another EU country. The tax authorities are not interested in yotties, they are more focused on residents with properties. Now, if you are in a Spanish marina and you have clearly been there for years and never moved; you might have a problem. Otherwise: relax. That is not a guarantee that you will never be checked, but I think the odds are better that you will win the lottery before this happens. (and then they will be interested.....)
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anteak
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(regular)
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04/08/2008 21:48
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Re: 183 Days in France !
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I agree. Don't ask, don't tell.
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Re: 183 Days in France !
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Before I sailed to France to gio down to the Med I spoke to RYA legal section and they told me that the people who have problems with this are the ones who have a house in France or Spain and are resident there but have a British flagged boat.Basically provided liveaboards keep a low profile and - if asked - are 'on passge' to another country you are ok - unless you meet the Douanier from hell! When I got there and was in France for nearly a year this advice held good.Was boarded after about 8 months in country by Douaniers - no probs - told them I was wintering and then off to Spain in the spring.They were happy with that,checked all my papers and left.
The ones who did have a problem were the Americans - from talking to some of them in Barcelona they were very likely to get pinged for some reason.
But the bottom line is that 183 days in any one year in any one country and you are in play.
Having said that loads of boats have been there for years continuously without problems.
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Re: 183 Days in France !
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P.S. It was the same with cars in Spain apparently.When we were there the Spanish authorities had an occasional blitz on the Brit cars that had been there for more than 6 months so the local buzz was to make sure you kept your ferry tickets etc as proof of how long you had been there.
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Re: 183 Days in France ! Yes, BUT!
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What has been said so far is correct, HOWEVER, be aware that in France, if you being investigated, and cannot prove that you are paying income tax elsewhere, the 183 days residency allowed comes down to 4 months.
In practice, yotties -large or small- are rarely investigated. In the early nineties the authorities wanted to crack down on the wealthy yachts berthed in up market Riviera marinas. These boats simply left these ports for Italy. The immense loss in business that followed soon encouraged a change of heart and they then returned.
For example, it was pointed out to me recently that the annual bill for flowers for one such yacht is more than my boat is worth!
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Re: 183 Days in France ! Yes, BUT!
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Common question and tax law is somwhat complex to say the least. There s a principal in the UK that if you ask the tax office for advice they have to give you the best advice thay can, to the piont that is they get it wrong and it costs you they they have to give you the money back with interest!! I think it is probably the case accross europe that if you are up front with them they will be helpful. What they are looking for is the people who use properties abroad, offshore accounts etc to dodge paying taxes. I think there is suposed to be a principle as part of U tax harmonisation thy nobody would ever finish up paying tax on the same thing in two countries so presumably if you become tax resident in France you cease to pay tax in the UK. Since tax seams lower and benifits greater in France this seams to be a good thing.
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Re: 183 Days in France ! Yes, BUT!
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Quote:
I think there is suposed to be a principle as part of U tax harmonisation thy nobody would ever finish up paying tax on the same thing in two countries
Correct. This is one of the things in the EU tax system that actually works very well. I can stick out my neck and guarantee that you will never pay tax twice on the same income within the EU. So it pays to 'shop around' and chose your residency where it is most beneficial for you. Sailing liveaboards are in the unique situation of being able to do that a lot easier than most other EU residents. Make the most of it!
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Lemain
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(regular)
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08/08/2008 22:08
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Re: 183 Days in France !
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As others have said, this is correct and is an EU-wide thing. It has been a problem in southern Spain from Gibraltar to Valencia. Most, but not all, of those I am aware of have a residence on land and/or some kind of earned income but I am aware of several cases where they seemed to be just ordinary yotties.
The important thing is to find out what the law says, and fully understand that (impossible in Spain, I think) then consider the consequences of 'breaking' the law. Personally I hate to break laws if for no better reason than I don't sleep so well! If you can organise your affairs to keep well clear of these things then you never need to be looking over your shoulder. By the way, the Spanish exclude the Channel Islands, Gib and tax-havens from allowable bolt-holes so you probably cannot flip between, say, St Malo and Jersey - at least, that's the case in Spanish law and you might find it's the same in French law too.
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Re: 183 Days in France !
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Sorry to be late here but I have been without internet for a month on my boat.
French income tax seems low, but what does seem to be overlooked often is that all investment income is subject to social charges of about 11% on top of any income tax.
Furthermore anyone with assets over about 760000€ has to pay an annual wealth tax. Taxes on death can also be higher depending on who the inheritors are.
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Grehan
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(regular)
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18/08/2008 20:09
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Re: 183 Days in France !
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Also a bit late, and with some self-interest (although I think we are - formally - outside the scope) . . . does anyone know of anyone, on a boat, who's actually been tackled under the 183 (or whatever it is) day rule - in France?
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