| tangomoon |
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| 31/03/2008 13:15 |
RYA money money money
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Have posted this here in case any one doesn't go on other forums anyway this is my main forum!
We thought we'd join the RYA and explore the fantastic world of discounts, of their prices, advice, free International Certificate of Competence - OOhHH we thought! - What do we need to get that - ring them up - Day skipper not good enough - Yachtmaster theory not good enough - Power boat level 2 - Yes, but only for a power boat up to 10 metres - we have a yacht would it do for that? - NO - you need Yachtmaster practical - £3/400 ish for automatic qualification to ICC.
As an aside - wife thought she'd like to teach theory to youngsters say up to 18 about seamanship or to Day Skipper standard - for free except for cost of books - can't expect the RYA to supply them for nothing - fair enough - What do you need to qualify as teacher for Day Skipper theory? - Yachtmaster Practical - £3/400 ish quids - so much for our wish to help youngsters get going. It isn't even the money - she doesn't want to take the Yachtmaster Practical not that she can't she does all the navigation, sails up/down/trim/logbook/weather/helps teach Yachtmaster theory to adults has done Physics, Pure Maths, Applied Maths. So we're talking one of the sharpest tools in the box here.
The conflicting advice and statements from that organisation don't help matters either. Any thoughts to get through the shambles we all know or shouldwe just leave the kids on the streets to do enough mischief until they get an ASBO/ Caution/added to the increasing list of disaffected.
RYA as PBO mentioned has been short of teachers in the past and -well we don't care about that - they do have a monopoly though and its a lovely money making one that is affecting us all. Well that's the blue touch paper lit.
| Damo |
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| 31/03/2008 22:01 |
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I think everyone is too scared to answer you, after the performances next door
| wotayottie |
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| 31/03/2008 22:39 |
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The ICC isnt an RYA piece of paper for them to set the standard as they wish. Its an IMO document and the test has to be to a standard acceptable to overseas jurisdictions . Thats the Day skipper level (note - not the shorevased course but the proper day skipper ticket). Not surprising really since the alternative exam includes practical boat handling which cant be done on a shorbased course.
At one time the ICC was dished out by club commadores on the "he's a jolly sound chap "basis, and not surprisingly the foreiners across the channel refused to accept it. Interestingly, the Germans are already muttering about the SRC licence course we do - apparently they take three days to teach you to operate a marine VHF radio!
As for instructing kids, do you think teachers in schools should be well qualified and checked by exams? Why not teachers of sailing kids? And its hardly as if you are talking of lots of money and a difficult test.
| tangomoon |
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| 31/03/2008 23:34 |
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I do love a bun fight. Forum has deteriorated badly in two years though. Not here though.
| Damo |
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| 01/04/2008 07:40 |
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Do that here and you will be forced to go to the naughty-mooring, and have your burgee confiscated for a lunar month
| tangomoon |
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| 01/04/2008 10:30 |
Re: RYA money money money
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Exactly
| johnchampion |
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| 01/04/2008 23:41 |
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Assuming your comments are serious and not just a general stir I'll rise to the bait.
Where do you get the figure of £3/400 for Yachtmaster practical from as this seems incorrect to me. The cost of the Yachtmaster exam is the cost for the examiner for a day and is around £100 (I can't be bothered to look up the exact figure but it's not bad for a full day of someone's time with admin overheads).
The cost you are quoting is the cost of doing a commercial 5 day course prior to the exam and is not a requisite, of course if you feel you need the training to be able to meet the standard then that's a different matter but if someone can't pass the exam without it perhaps they should carefully consider their qualification to teach others anyway.
It is all very well knowing the theory but if the owner of that knowledge is not capable of putting the theory into practise would you have faith in them?
As to giving out ICC's willy nilly as has already been pointed out there is a set standard for automatic issue and that has nothing to do with the RYA who are acting responsibly in insisting on the standards.
In any case if you don't want to go the Yachtmaster route to get an ICC why not just do the ICC?
| tangomoon |
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| 02/04/2008 13:25 |
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No, it is a genuine debate.
Have you read the last issue of PBO where Chief Examiner debates this and mentions shortage of teachers due to haviing to be 'over-qualified.'
Cost is if you don't have your own boat and go to a school using theirs.
Careful in fact detailed consideration has been given to whether others can be taught.
http://www.ryasailingcourses.co.uk/rya_sailing_courses/seaschool.htm
ICC as said in my post - you are quite correct and giving them out 'willy nilly' has only been mentioned by you.
Ref taking ICC alone - of course that is an option but that is not the discussion.
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but if someone can't pass the exam without it perhaps they should carefully consider their qualification to teach others anyway.
I would have thought but am not advocating it, that for someone who is going to teach, doing the whole course whole where a person is assessed and filthy habits they have picked up since passing theory and while watching other less than skilled players, would be ironed out by an instructor who puts them right all day evry day for a week and then they have to sit an exam that the examiner was sure that person was fit to teach others.
Afraid your statement seems to say a lesser standard is acceptable whereas someone who aims higher and wants the expert guidance is frowned upon.
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It is all very well knowing the theory but if the owner of that knowledge is not capable of putting the theory into practise would you have faith in them?
I only have faith in me, what I can see and know is right and my ability to get myself an others out of mischief. Your statement applies to most people, including me, who achieving their YM or DS theory. Yet off they go - family in tow and trust to what they can remember gradually honing their skills and having narrow escapes or listening to others that they learn from. The RYA evening classes is supplying a lot of info, which if absorbed will keep you out of trouble but it is you who must make yourself skilled in its application (obviously)
However a slight digression it is good to know what others think but what we want is youngsters out on the water and learning NOW.
| chrishelen |
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| 02/04/2008 14:42 |
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post deleted sorry,my info was duff.
| graham |
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| 02/04/2008 15:17 |
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The examination charge for the YM offshore practical is very reasonable for a highly qualified and experienced man usually on a weekend. Compare that with the cost of a plumber / electrician for 12 or more weekend hours.
You cant hold the RYA responsible for the cost of chartering a boat to do the exam in.
Im not sure what alternative there is. The RYA campaigns for voluntary qualification in the UK then sets up a system where those that choose to can obtain qualifications that are respected worldwide.Either take up the challenge or dont ,its not compulsory.
| mrbloto |
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| 02/04/2008 16:41 |
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a growing claim culture in this country, everybody is very jittery about teaching ,and learning and getting qualifications,everybody seems to not want take the blame when the s**t hits the fan. since joining e u its paperwork ,nothing gets done when iwas young you had boys brigade, sea scouts , sea cadets.
| graham |
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| 02/04/2008 17:09 |
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I agree about the claim culture bit Tim .
You make it sound as if noone is willing to do anything these days and that isnt right.There are at least 3 active scout groups in Barry Alone. I believe the Sea Cadets still exist as well.Was over the boat this morning and there were dozens of kids being taught in Oppies and toppers with a mixture of proffesional instructors and willing volunteers in safety boats etc. Really great to see so many of them doing something worthwile.
Sure the leaders and helpers have to jump through a few more hoops to keep within the rules these days. Just to be a parent helper with the scouts I had to attend a short course on child protection and have a police check. Not a bad thing IMHO.Theres no doubt that in the past these organizations have been used by some adults with evil intent.
Fortunately there are still some decent people willing to run scouts etc .
| chrishelen |
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| 02/04/2008 19:33 |
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There is also an organization called the Maritime Volunteer Service(MVS)that meet up on a wednesday night over the dock and teach all aspects of seamanship they also have their own craft to practice on.
| tangomoon |
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| 02/04/2008 19:39 |
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Thanks for your considered points.
I do not blame the RYA - their courses are doing a good job of disseminating information for safer boating.
Your 'experienced man may have been on a week's course and become certificated as YM - not a lot of experience there. Don't you think. It's fine because what he passes on to others will make a big difference to their skills
You're missing the point. I am saying that it is an over-qualification to expect to have to do the practical to be able to teach the theory of a lesser exam.
You have also exemplified the other point that it is those with the money who can do it. This causes exclusion and does not give us the best teachers.
Because of our backgrounds we would not describe sailing, seamanship, navigation particularly challenging. The sextant is a bit heavy! We can and do teach it to other people though.
You are right it's not compulsory - yet.
| graham |
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| 02/04/2008 21:21 |
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I can understand your frustration at the system that requires you to have YM practical when you only wish to teach theory.
i do think that a person with considerable practical experience will make a better all round instructor.
The "experienced person" I referred to in the earlier answer to you was the YM examiner who will have done a lot more than a weeks course. I have a feeling you know that allready .
Im not missing the point,I hear what you say but dont agree with you.
Not worth us debating it too much I doubt the decision makers at the RYA will be much influenced by our little forum.
good Luck
| Damo |
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| 02/04/2008 23:12 |
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"I am saying that it is an over-qualification to expect to have to do the practical to be able to teach the theory of a lesser exam."
I wasn't going to get involved, but I would like to take issue with this point. My background is in mountaineering and I am a qualified climbing instructor, and when teaching at novice level I think it is very dangerous if the instructor has not been able to demonstrate that they have reached a certain degree of practical knowledge, and have enough experience. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, as we all know, even in the theoretical aspects of an activity.
I have sometimes cringed when hearing a well-meaning but "poorly qualified" instructor saying stuff like "This is what you must do when such-and-such happens" or "You should always do this" or "This is the way you must always tie a knot" etc etc. A teacher with good experience would be able to point out why sometimes an alternative might be better, and be able to give examples from their own history.
I have been in an RYA classroom when the instructor said "An anchor rode should have a scope of 4:1", and when I pointed out that this would depend on numerous factors, especially in the Bristol Channel, he said that that was beyond the scope of that level of course. Fair enough I suppose, but not to make clear that it merited further study, and wasn't a fixed rule, was remiss of him IMO.
The main point I am trying to get across is that a well-meaning instructor MAY not have the requisite experience to know when their advice is inadequate, and the RYA is quite right to require someone to be able to demonstrate their practical knowledge at a higher level. There is nothing to stop someone teaching others, but in the name of the RYA you must play by their rules.
| tangomoon |
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| 02/04/2008 23:34 |
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The RYA are aware 'over-qualification' has been a problem to them in the past.
You may have had an 'experienced' person in mind', I only had the person who could take a 7 day course and be qualified as per the RYA stance that you have put forward.
Good sailing
| tangomoon |
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| 03/04/2008 00:01 |
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Knew you would get involved
Bit unfair ref RYA chap saying 4 to 1 They only carry out RYA instructions. human error is not accounted for only that those going to sea must use their heads even after an RYA course that gives them an excellent insight into what they have to do. It is however only an insight like your mountaineering instruction. it is ony when you are out there or in your case up there that you can hope to use what you have ben taught. Sometimes teachers do put it over badly for what ever reason but you're the one with the responsibility and what ever happens you have to drop anchor and wait to see if it drags then lengthen the rode if it does or you may be too close to shore or the guy next door or the tide is dropping further than you thought. It's not nannying because what happens to you when you're doing the stuff is not always going to be covered by what you were told in the class room. You will however know which knots to tie or try
IF you (whoever) listened. I would guess that the majority of boaters, all kinds, went out there with little knowledge but muddled through getting the experience in as they went. We know numerous people who have been sailing for donkey's years who have only just decided to do a course in navigation or don't want to and rely on chart plotter. One has, after 25years, oly just learned that you should sail by tell-tales for best performance and doesn't know how to navigate but follows the arrow on his GPS! He has survived thus far like many others! Some texhing has to be better than no teaching and the more that are taught the better. if it's affordable they will take the course, if not they don't. It was an elitist hobby, now a huge number can afford the boat but won't or can't afford the RYA course. I'm sure plans are afoot and hope they can be given a nudge.
Hey! I just thought. i knew a chap in Dorset years ago. he was 72 or so I think. Joined the RAF les than 6 weeks training - up in a Spitfire. Come on chaps. Best of British Let's not promulgate the nanny state (EU) straight cucumbers and all that!
| mrbloto |
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| 03/04/2008 00:13 |
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wether your glass is half full or half empty, the one thing you have to get across is that common sense preveils, boating can be avery dangerous pastime, especially in this channel. seamanship is not an exact science you must always err on the safety factor which somebody who has just passed an exam dont do. look at the mortality rate of young drivers
| tangomoon |
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| 03/04/2008 10:01 |
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Thanks for the reply
That mortality rate you refer to is much lower than the number of pedestrians killed by the older much older (more experienced?) drivers in the 30s and 40s.
Boating has a wonderful safety record. I do believe though that the highest call-out for the RNLI ref boats is for 'older' people. The young do well and must be encouraged to push the boundaries. Their capabilities are vast when given direction.
| wotayottie |
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| 06/04/2008 18:11 |
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The comment about pedestrians being killed by experience drivers as opposed to new drivers is simply nonsense. Its well established that the risk of accident in any activity is greater for a/ beginner b/ newly qualified c/ young males because they are more risk inclined. Doesnt matter whether that activity is driving, divi9ng, sailing or operating machinery.
No reason for not training them - in fact a very good reason for training them. And its fair to say that even for the new and young, sailing is still far safer than motoring.
| tangomoon |
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| 07/04/2008 20:36 |
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Thanks for the comment. It was not a comment it is a fact
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5256506.stm
You do understand I am talking about the 1930s and 1940s? When there were 2.7 million cars on the road killing 7,000 people as opposed to 27million now killing 3,000. As you (sic) would not be an adult until your 21st birthday in those days, you would not start earning full pay until then therefore it as older people who had the money to be able to afford a vehicle. I will leave you to extrapolate.
As to the second part of your post ref training. Training is what we're advocating. Read my first post.
The third part of your post ref ....safer than motoring. I did say
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Boating has a wonderful safety record. I do believe though that the highest call-out for the RNLI ref boats is for 'older' people.
The highest RNLI call-outs are for older people, not youngsters, who are to be encouraged into training and enabled in what they wish to do as per initial post.
| wotayottie |
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| 09/04/2008 10:32 |
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I was puzzled by your apparent reference to older people currently causing more road accidents. I can see now that you were referring to road accidents 60 to 70 years ago - which if anything is even less relevant and more puzzling. I have no knowledge of the age profile of drivers in those days as compared to today, but then as I already posted "the risk of accident in any activity is greater for a/ beginner b/ newly qualified c/ young males because they are more risk inclined". So I've no doubt that older drivers when first driving a car back in the 30s were fairly accident prone, though I wouldnt know for sure - I wasnt there.
I would expect the MCA callouts to be mainly for older people - ever looked at the demographic of yacht owners? Its your argument about the 1930s drivers all over again.
But what you really seem to be advocating is not training, but some sort of free ride for potential trainers from the RYA. They for their part have a training scheme to run, standards to check and control and it all costs money. So it seems entirely reasonable to me (and judging from the responses to most other posters on these forums) that your wife should be qualified to the appropriate standard and pay the fairly small costs of doing so. No doubt there will be some local authority social services / central govt budgets that can help if necessary.
Maths, physics etc are some help in the teaching of this subject but not a huge amount. And poersonally, I dont see the disaffected being any less so because of the provision of free training that they can then no longer use because they dont have a boat to use it in. But thats another debate
| tangomoon |
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| 10/04/2008 11:17 |
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You have missed the point of the 30s and 40s again. The fact you
Quote:has nothing to do with it. The figures still stand for ever. The details of the Battle of Waterloo are as easily defined today as they were back then.
weren't there
Newly arrived participators are of course more likely to have an accident/mishap than a more experienced person. BUT there are more accidents among the OLDER more experienced drivers than there are with the young newly arrived.
Glad you appreciate that older boaters too are accident/mishap prone by the very nature of the fact it is older persons, who in the main do not have, or have only recently gained, qualifications in boating, that can afford to own the vessels. Therefore we can conclude that being older and more experienced is no guarantee not to have mishaps. By proportion it must be something in the order of 90/95% of call-outs are for older, experienced, persons.
We do not advocate a free ride for trainers and your rhetoric takes a poor turn saying this.
Yes, you are right, trainers should be qualified to an appropriate standard. However, in symbiosis with the Chief Trainer at the RYA (read his articel in PBO last or one before that issue) we are saying that over-qualification is not necessary and to have to have YM Offshore practical is and unecessary over-qualification to teach Day Skipper, no matter how noble the the cause or regime.
Quote:Never take comfort in numbers, mob rule is not necessarily correct, a whole nation followed Hitler and tried to exterminate the Jews and recently a chap was kicked to death by a crowd of youngsters for standing up for what he believed was right, with no help from the concerned citizens no doubt watching.
So it seems entirely reasonable to me (and judging from the responses most other posters on these forums)
Thank you for pointing us towards Government help in the same paragraph that you also mention you think we're advocating 'free rides'.
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Maths, physics etc are some help in the teaching of this subject but not a huge amount.
Yes, very much OVER-QUALIFICATION. You hardly need a degree to teach, or learn a much lesser discipline. The degree or other eminent qualification is only to show that you are capable of learning other disciplines. Don't you think?
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I dont see the disaffected being any less so because of the provision of free training that they can then no longer use because they dont have a boat to use it in.
It boils down to inclusion in life and not feeling disaffected, excluded, not wanted. Exclusion or disaffection does not have to be pro-active, the fact a person doesn't have enough money to join in, what ever, is self-exclusion. Some years ago it was found that consumers were self-disconnecting themselves from the electric because they did not have the money to put in the meter. This left the young, the elderly and disadvantaged very vulnerable. Hope you follow the thread.
What we would like to create is a whole heap of youngsters who are trained and will in turn train others.
It is pompous and naive of you to make the smug statement 'because they don't have a boat to use it in'. There are numerous ways of ensuring they do have access to boats and I hope you will take a couple of youngsters out with you and show them how to sail while letting them see minor chart work in operation. You will need to notify your insurance company, have up to date lifejackets, flares, at least have had a Sea Check by the RNLI and a whole list of other things like seacocks in good order when you had them out to look at last year an so on. So no need for another debate on the boat issue. We've got the will, the youngsters, the boats, a whole pile of philanthropist boaters, volunteers, insurance and I'm sure you can think of more.
| wotayottie |
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| 10/04/2008 20:06 |
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You do like an argument, dont you? But then I suppose I'm guilty of that too.
In an earlier post to me you put the link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5256506.stm as justification of "When there were 2.7 million cars on the road killing 7,000 people as opposed to 27million now killing 3,000. As you (sic) would not be an adult until your 21st birthday in those days, you would not start earning full pay until then therefore it as older people who had the money to be able to afford a vehicle."
Well I've just got round to reading the report and it does nothing of the sort. The only specific accident mentioned is the death of a middle aged woman caused by a youth of 20 allegedly speeding. If that doesnt lend some (limited) support to my comment "Its well established that the risk of accident in any activity is greater for a/ beginner b/ newly qualified c/ young males because they are more risk inclined." then I dont know what does. Insofar, of course, that any media report adds any useful information.
You go on to say "BUT there are more accidents among the OLDER more experienced drivers than there are with the young newly arrived" which is simply incorrect. For example ROSPOA say " Younger drivers are more likely to be involved in accidents because they are young, but once they have had one or two years driving experience the effects of age on their accident risk seems to disappear." They go on to say "Lack of driving experience is a major reason for the higher accident risk of novice drivers, especially in their first three years of driving. As new drivers gain more driving experience, their accident rate begins to fall. However, the effects of increasing age and increasing driving experience combine, and together they produce even higher reductions in accident risk. Overall, the accident risk of 17 year old novice drivers reduces by 43% after their first year of driving experience. For 18 year old drivers, the reduction is 40%, for 19 year olds it is 38%. The accident risk of 25 year old novice drivers reduces by about one quarter after the first year of driving." And of course the insurance industry knows this well which is why premiums for young drivers are very high - higher for males than females.
None of which is really relevant to your argument about the cost and level of qualification required to teach kids shorebased courses up to day skipper. I am a shorebased teacher - been doing it for 8 years now, but gradually winding down. And before you jump to any conclusions about financial interests, apart from the rare private courses I do it all foc for my clubs. Either way, I reckon I'm in a position to comment on your points.
I half agree with you about the YM practical - its nice to have but not really necessary in a practical sense to teach DS shorebased. In fact the RYA rules as explained to me require for the Principal to have that qualification but allow him / her to use teachers for various subjects who know the subject but arent YMs. So your wife could teach nav under the aegis of a recognised school provided she knew her stuff. Thats possibly a way forward for your project and its an approach I've taken in my classes many times.. Incidentally, the rules are different for practical courses - those she couldnt teach without qualification at a higher level than YM.
You went on to say "It is pompous and naive of you to make the smug statement 'because they don't have a boat to use it in'. " and you're wrong. Whats more likely to cause disaffection than getting a taste of something you cant have? Because thats the reality. At one of our local clubs, they made an effort to get youth involved - or at least a couple of members did. But only a couple would consider taking the kids out in their boats and that was before all the rules about CRO checks. Personally, I wouldnt consider taking kids out in my boat without both parents present and I'd be doubtful even then. But then you dont need a boat to do the DS theory anyway.
" It boils down to inclusion in life and not feeling disaffected, excluded, not wanted. " Nice theory but the problem is that a lot of these feral disaffected kids arent wanted, by their mothers, their absentee fathers or the rest of us in society. And thats a problem that well intentioned do-goodery isnt going to solve. Having said that, your intentions are admirable and I wish you the best of luck with your project.
| chrishelen |
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| 10/04/2008 20:16 |
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Get over to the lounge at once you two.
| Damo |
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| 10/04/2008 21:30 |
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I was just going to say the same thing, but without a smiley.
Could you guys take it somewhere else please?
| Who |
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| 10/04/2008 21:39 |
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Totally agree, well said Damo
| mrbloto |
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| 10/04/2008 21:42 |
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me too
| graham |
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| 10/04/2008 21:47 |
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What a shame,I hoped we could remain free of this type of nonsence.
Take it elsewhere please guys.
| tangomoon |
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| 11/04/2008 13:25 |
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Quote:
these feral disaffected kids arent wanted, by their mothers, their absentee fathers or the rest of us in society.
You are incorrect in what I have said, your facts ditto.
I am appalled that you should refer to another person but particularly young people in this manner. You are revolting. I have no more to say on the matter.
| wotayottie |
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| 11/04/2008 13:36 |
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hug a hoodie eh? but I guess we'd better shut up.