| TMLondon |
| (regular) |
| 17/04/2008 18:07 |
|
Castlemartin range
|
This may seem a silly question, i've never had much experience sailing around firing ranges, and now i'm on the channel i've got the Castlemartin range between Dale and Tenby. Looking at the charts it extends 12miles off shore, is there a protocol for sailing either around or near it?
(apart from ducking if a missile comes over?)
| mrbloto |
| (regular) |
| 17/04/2008 18:25 |
Re: Castlemartin range
|
the times of firing are normally posted at milford marina neyland marina or any of the yacht clubs in the area the range boats are both ends of the extremities, they normally ask you to stay outside of!! turbot bank!! west end!! st govans!! the east end we have had drones above us and shells within 200metrs of the boat if the weather is bad they will wait for you to pass
| Damo |
| (regular) |
| 17/04/2008 19:50 |
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
As a rule of thumb they never fire at weekends, so traversing the coast shouldn't be a problem then. If you ever go to the public viewing area when the tanks are firing, you can see why you need to keep well offshore - shells can ricochet a loooong way.
If the weather is calm the inshore route has some of the most spectacular coastal scenery anywhere, and in many places you can go right up to the cliffs and sea caves and watch the climbers.
Some good info and contact details here
| Damo |
| (regular) |
| 17/04/2008 20:40 |
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
Church Rock, Broadhaven
Stackpole Hd, St Govan's Hd beyond
Castle Head
Battleship Buttress
Linney Hd
| savageseadog |
| (regular) |
| 17/04/2008 21:13 |
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
Suitable logo for your boat................
| Alcyone |
| (regular) |
| 17/04/2008 21:22 |
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
Hope I'm not boring anyone with this.....
There is teh wreck of a liner in Bullslaughter bay, right under a radar station for Castlemartin. We always dived it at weekends. In 1992, three of us spent a week down West and decided to dive this wreck. We set out from Dale, informing the coastguard of our intentions. We did see a red flag, but assumed that, since we had spoken to the coastguard, they could not be exercising. I was half way through evicting a lobster from it's hole when I was dragged upwards by someone pulling on my surface marker bouy line.
when I reached the surface I was informed that I was in deep trouble, that there were dozens of German tanks waiting to fire, at thousands of pounds per hour, and that I would likely be charged the bill. We were escorted back to Dale by the Navy launch, all our details taken. As soon as we passed crow rock, they started firing. It was a boiling hot day, and they must have really hated waiting in those tanks.
Rather than air my dirty laundry over the airwaves, I telephoned the coastguard to complain. They could not apologise enough, had a record of my call and took full responsibility. No further action was taken and I was sent a letter of apology. I didn't get my lobster though.
Even now, we still have a laugh over a pint, thinking about those Germans sweating in their tanks whilst they waited for me to finish my dive......
| Damo |
| (regular) |
| 17/04/2008 21:42 |
|
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
Up until about 1991 the red flags were only flown during firing, as per what you would expect. After the new Lt.Col arrived they were flown continuously, which made it a bit tricky for us climbers to know when it was OK to climb.
There was a concerted effort by the climbing community to get access to Range West - the best stretch of unclimbed cliffs in the UK - which culminated in a mass trespass at dawn one Saturday by about 40 of us. Some of us had been going in for a while, entering before dawn and keeping below the clifftops all day, so we knew the lie of the land pretty well and could avoid the frantic security patrols which were all over the place after the Guardian reporter had phoned the Commandant for a comment! (There is a climb named "Cowboys and Spoilt Children" after his response
)Me and my climbing partner spent half an hour crouched on a ledge just below the top, after being spotted, until a patrol had moved away, before creeping round the end of the fence and coming back to Stack Rocks car park from a "legal" direction. We pretended not to know all our mates who had been arrested by the MP's
The outcome was that the MOD now provide annual briefings for climbers who want to climb in Range West (weekends only, outside of the nesting season)
| Alcyone |
| (regular) |
| 17/04/2008 21:55 |
|
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
There's a beach a little to the West (If my memory serves me) with a cracking stack on it. We'd often pull up there for lunch between dives, there were often climbers dropping down the cliffs (no easy access) to go over the stack.
We played a game of rounders there once with driftwood and pebbles, until we broke one blokes foot when a pebble struck off the 'bat' caught him square. He never came diving with us again after that. Strange fellow.
| Damo |
| (regular) |
| 17/04/2008 22:24 |
|
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
Sounds like the Elegug stack at Stack Rocks - impressive guillemot colony on the top, which makes climbibg very unpleasant just after the nesting season
| Alcyone |
| (regular) |
| 17/04/2008 22:34 |
|
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
That looks right, although I remember more sand than that at the base. Stunning bit of coastline along there, although I've ot been down there for some years now.
Never remember being bothered by Guillemots. Iv'e been bombed by Fulmars when in the water, and chased by Skuas in Scotland, but can't remember ever having a problem with Gullemots. What deodorant were you using?
| Damo |
| (regular) |
| 17/04/2008 22:39 |
|
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
The sand comes and goes with storms - several of the coves along there can be all boulders or all sand at various times.
Fulmar chicks are the worst, cos they have a lovely habit of projecting foul fishy oily gloop at you. That's when climbers tend to say "Your lead", "No, it's OK you lead the next pitch"
| tangomoon |
| (regular) |
| 18/04/2008 00:23 |
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
Was that the colonel everybody had so much trouble with, ramblers, conservationists, everybody else his name was Parmen or something
| John_Filer |
| (regular) |
| 18/04/2008 01:13 |
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
Section 9 paragraph 3 clause a) of the CastleMartin Range Byelaws (1986 - now available on the internet) state: "These Byelaws shall not insofar as they relate to the Sea Area apply to : any vessel, not being used for fishing in the Sea Area, passing through the Sea Area in the ordinary course of navigation and remaining in the Sea Area no longer than reasonably necessary to pass through the sea area".
There is also an additional clause excempting vessels giving assistance to persons or other vessels at sea.
In other words it appears if you have the balls to do it, you can cross the range during firing.
I believe the range operates a 'clear range procedure' which means if they are aware of you they will cease firing until you clear the range.
The range safety vessels will probably vigorously assert that you are in the wrong, and morally I tend to agree with them considering the cost to the taxpayer of having the range unavailable.
The coastguard, local tourist information offices, police stations and newspapers are sources of firing times. I'd be interested to hear from anyone with more local experience as I'm based near Bristol and have only been near the range a few times.
| BrendanS |
| (regular) |
| 18/04/2008 01:24 |
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
It's exactly the same on the Lulworth range near Weymouth on the south coast. They can't actually stop you, though the range boats will tell you to go outside.
What annoys me is the number of times I've checked range firing times there, and gone outside, only to find no firing is going on.
| Damo |
| (regular) |
| 18/04/2008 01:42 |
|
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
That's the one - name of Colonel Portman (succeeded by Col Johnny Rogers in 2002). He had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the negotiating table, but I think the MOD were on to a loser if he didn't. Guided walking groups had been allowed access; locals were allowed in for fishing and tending livestock; geologists, archaeologists, biologists regularly visited for studies etc.
The arguments against allowing climbers access revolved around the safety issue of live rounds in the ground, but a certain biologist was also very anti. Unfortunately for them the BMC have access to various experts in the field so their objections were pretty much shot down - several of the climbers had also been involved in bird-ringing studies in the area, and monitoring nesting sites and climbing restrictions, so they could speak with authority.
The best moment in the very first big meeting in the lecture theatre at Castlemartin, with a huge 3D model of the Range in front of us, and a big collection of munitions, was after we had been regaled with horror stories of how dangerous it was. A climber pointed out that hundreds of sheep and cattle wandered the Range every year and asked "How many have been blown up since 1938?". "Err, none"
Portman was quite pompous (allegedly) and a friend of mine tried to get access on the grounds she was a professional instructor and not one of the "cowboys and spoilt children". The col obviously kept his eye on the climbing press because he had spotted a new route (climbing was still illegal at this point) called "Rum, Sodomy and the Lash". He wrote back to her declining permission to enter Range West, and as a PS asked her "to restrain your husband in his choice of colourful route names"
| tico |
| (regular) |
| 18/04/2008 13:06 |
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
there is a phone number to call (not got it with me) that is directed to am answering machine that gives out the times of firing..... if you ring Roachie at Neyland 01646 601601 i'm sure he'll have it.
| Alcyone |
| (regular) |
| 18/04/2008 13:09 |
|
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
From what I understand, many of the shells fired are blanks - the bottom of the sea along there is littered with them. I've never tried to recover one.....
Having said that, they are about four inches in diameter and 18 inches long if memory serves me well, so they could make a nasty hole in a sail I should imagine. Anyone seen Master and Commander....?
| tangomoon |
| (regular) |
| 18/04/2008 17:41 |
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
Thanks for that Damo - memory was slipping a bit there. I remeber he was continually in the papers as number one pain to block everything and everybody.
Hayston the MOD house where the worthy pain lived near Castlemartin, was sold, prompted his leaving I think in 2000/2001
| chrishelen |
| (regular) |
| 18/04/2008 18:11 |
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
This clear range business,what if the Yanks have the Range and are practising?
| Alcyone |
| (regular) |
| 18/04/2008 18:35 |
|
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
If the yanks are firing, the safest place to be is directly in front of the range. It's the people in Haverfordwest that should worry then....
| Damo |
| (regular) |
| 18/04/2008 19:06 |
|
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
I've never seen US tanks there - are there any in Europe? Apart from the Brits, the main users are German iirc. (cf the climb called "Startled German", when the first ascensionists came over the top of the cliff
)
| tangomoon |
| (regular) |
| 18/04/2008 19:23 |
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
I was going to say, many a true word said in jest but it is true
They're unbelieveable
| graham |
| (regular) |
| 18/04/2008 22:18 |
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
I sailed down to Milford Haven for the tall ships race in 91. There were a series of yacht races as part of the celebrations. One afternoon The Range controller called up a motorboat and asked why they were laying a race buoy inside the range safety area.
The mobo replied "We have written and phoned you for permission and you didnt have the courtesy to reply so today 20 yachts will be racing around that mark. " .
They can only ASK you to stay ouitside the range safety and must stop firing if any vessel strays into the safety area.
Having said that I personally wouldnt deliberately interrupt their firing. The next time they fire their weapons may be in a war zone and the practice firing could save their lives.
| wotayottie |
| (regular) |
| 18/04/2008 22:51 |
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
If its a nice day and the weather is good, oblige them and sail outside the range. If the weather is bad or you are short of time - sail through it. There is no legal exclusion zone which is why the HO dont mark ranges as such on their charts. The range boats will approach and try aggressive bluster. Politely tell them to go away.
Dont try the same thing in France though - they dont stop firing.
| Damo |
| (regular) |
| 18/04/2008 23:16 |
|
|
|
Re: Castlemartin range
|
Lots aren't blanks either! We were told in briefings that the flight characteristics of dummy rounds were different, so they also needed to practice with live ammo. Also don't forget that although all misfires have to be accounted for and disposed of, they occasionally can't find a round, especially if it has overshot or buried itself. And there are a lot of ancient mortar rounds still in the ground or on the sea bed - they are the worst apparently.
Small arms and machine-gun firing also takes place, especially at night on summer weekdays, so if you do decide to potter along close to the cliffs on a summer evening, Range Security may not spot you. Have some sail patches handy