|
JonJon
|
|
(regular)
|
|
05/07/2008 16:11
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Liftin out with crane
|
|
My Sun Fizz does not have swept back spreaders so presumably if I take the back stay off the mast will fall down. This prevents my being lifted out with a crane, spreader frame and slings (unless I take the mast down of course). The lowers might provide some support for the mast but it doesnt look very good to me. Leaving the back stay on runs the risk of interference with the crane wires. I have always previously been lifted out on a cradle lift. Anybody any thoughts on this - it would be convenient to be lifted out with a crane but seems too large a risk.
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
I and many others at the same yard have had boats with backstays lifted twice a year for years by crane, with no problems at all.
Probably comes down to how experienced the crane driver is and how much you trust the yard!
|
|
JonJon
|
|
(regular)
|
|
05/07/2008 16:18
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
So what supports the mast when you remove the backstay?
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
That's my point, we don't remove the backstay.
|
|
JonJon
|
|
(regular)
|
|
05/07/2008 16:25
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
Ah gotcha - sorry misread your post. So just a case of being careful with the crane wire.
|
|
Boat44
|
|
(regular)
|
|
05/07/2008 17:04
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
We have to remove our backstay, but we have runners that we use to keep the mast up.
Just use the topping lift and or main halyard back 1/2 way; back to either the mainsheet track if convenient or toe rail or rig a briddle from toerail to toerail with an eye in the middle.
A
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
can't see a problem. Many yards use cranes and don't remove the backstay. If a proper spreader is used there should be no conflict.
|
|
JonJon
|
|
(regular)
|
|
05/07/2008 17:28
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
It may be possible to design a spreader frame for use with a very tall crane that doesnt interfere with the back stay during a lift but I havent seen one (this could just be my ignorance of course) but the basic problem is you have to pick the boat / spreader frame up along the boat for and aft centreline with a crane hook. But guess what - thats where the backstay is, you cant come to one side or the other without unbalancing the lift. It would appear lots of people do it but how do I know a yard in ITaly has the expertise to do it _ I can always ask and no doubt they will tell me Si no problem but......
|
|
JonJon
|
|
(regular)
|
|
05/07/2008 18:24
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
Thanks, This sounds like a solution what sort of boat do you have?
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
My Sun Fizz does not have swept back spreaders
----------------------------------------------------------------
Neither does our Vega, nor thousands of other yachts; but if you disconnect the backstay, the mast won't immediately fall over. We were craned in and out for several years without a problem, the lowers providing adequate support for the duration of the craning operation. We never had the backstay down in high winds admittedly, but I wouldn't fancy being craned in a F5/6 anyway.
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
Our yard does not use a speader, just the crane hook and two slings, lifts boat upto around 40 foot.
You just look the other way.
Brian
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
Look at it this way. It will take not more than a couple of minutes for the crane to remove the mast - have a cradle ready to lay it down - and then you have the opportunity to check it over. When you go back in, once you're in, the crane will lift the mast back into position.
|
|
JonJon
|
|
(regular)
|
|
05/07/2008 19:12
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
Yes- quite happy to do that with somebody elses yacht. That proverbial cry when crewing for others " Ah well its not my boat" I think my problem is, being trained as an engineer not only means I can't spell, but when I cant see any forces holdin soomething in place I worry. Its a bit like being in a plane when you look out at the wing and see those diddy little hydraulic motors screwing the flaps in and out one small bit of swarf and... If I was a " believer " then obviously the Almighty would hold my mast up - like it does for others but as a sinner mine would come down to teach me a lesson. 
|
|
JonJon
|
|
(regular)
|
|
05/07/2008 19:26
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
Must admit this could have some advantages - safer - need to replace the rigging soon anyway.
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
Isn't your mast stepped on the keel?
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
In the last 20 years we have never had to remove the back stay to lift out, and I cannot think of anywere in Falmouth that does.
Why not look for a yard with a travel lift, float in and lift either side, then no worry for you with the back stay.
I to cannot spell, and spent many years in engineering design, on flying, have you flown on a Vicount, sit there and count the ribs in the wings while in flight.
Brian
|
|
JonJon
|
|
(regular)
|
|
05/07/2008 19:37
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
No, - well it sits on the cabin roof in a shoe and a big stainless tube, inside the cabin, transmits the forces vertically down to the keel.
|
|
JonJon
|
|
(regular)
|
|
05/07/2008 19:50
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
Yup travel lift /cradle lift is the way I've always done it, but wish to become more adventurous like the rest of you.
Never been on a Viscount as far as I can remember. Certainly would not have counted the wing member stiffeners anyway and all those dodgey rivets used to concentrate on the gin and tonic - still doing that mostly.
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
I still can't see what worries you. Craning is the most common way of lifting boats in and out of the water. Masts do not fall down if the backstay is removed - would you go to sea in a boat where mast stability depends solely on one stay? It is not "adventurous" to use a crane. Just get on with it.
And the most exciting thing about looking out of the window of a Viscount is watching the rivets bouncing up and down, particulalry in a banked turn - and if you are really sad counting them!
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
Are you sure using a crane is the most common way? I'm hard pushed to think of anywhere I've been in ages that doesn't have a travel lift.
Regarding lifts, unless the hoist is very much bigger than your yacht, then clearly as the boat is lifted, the hoist crossbeam will foul either the backstay or forestay, depending on which way round the yacht has been bought in. It is very much the convention to go astern into the dock, lower the boom to the deck and undo the backstay- its so much easier as the forestay normally has furling gear on it. Amazingly, the mast does not fall down!! The remaining shrouds and stay will keep it all there unless you hoist a sail!!!!
Personally, on whatever boat I've had lifted, I always reassure myself by clipping the main halyard and if possible the topping lift somewhere suitable on the toerail or wherever just to be sure. In many, many goes at this, never lost a mast!! Touch wood.....
Hope this helps.
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
You are right - many purpose built marinas have travel hoists, but equally many small boatyards use cranes - I can think of two in the Poole area who do. Plus all the sailing clubs and local associaitions that lay up boats for the winter in car parks and foreshores around the country and hire cranes for the big "Lift in" each year. Even in big operations such as Gouvia in Corfu the crane is used just as much as the hoist as it is quick and easy to launch boats laid up on the quayside.
Over the years I have used a variety of different methods to haul my boats. By far the best is a yard in Poole that uses trailers backed down the slip with a tractor. The boat never gets more than a foot above the ground, but of course it is only suitable for long keel or bilge keel boats with shallow draft.
So my advice to JonJon is to stop worrying unnecessarily. Cranes are perfectly safe if operated by people who know what they are doing.
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
What rig has your mast got? Are there swept back lowers, or are all the shrouds in line athwartships?
If the former - stop worrying. Our spreaders are athwartships but the lowers (which go as far as the spreader roots) keep the mast up with no problem. The forestay is a little slack and you woudn't go sailing, but it won't fall down.
If you have no lowers the usual practice is to use the topping lift and the main halyard as temporary backstays rigged to some suitable strong points a little aft of the mast and sufficiently forward to keep clear of the crane and its spreader.
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
Hi Halcyon. I imagine you are going back in history talking of a Viscount. In aviation around here that is still an ugly name. Near 40 years ago we had a Viscount on an intrastate service. Near Port Hedland the wing did fall off... obviously no survivors of 50 on board.
I believe it was a failure of the wing root attachment where a bush had been forced in during maintenance. Certainly no redundancy in that design.
Back to the OP a mast without sdails has very little load compared to sailing in a stiff breeze. It should be quite OK to remove backstay and if you are worried use halyard and or topping lift to points closer to the mast and on gunwhales. But it will probably be OK just relying on inners with aft of mast chainplates.
olewill
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
I can not see what the problem is, JonJon. Most crane operators can lift a boat without removing the rigging, and are well used to doing so. If there was risk of damage they wouldn't (be allowed) to do it. Insurance premiums would be too high for one thing! Our yard regulalrly lifts boats with the spars up, and AFAIK there has never been any sort of problem with rigging in the 40 years they have been doing it!
But as an engineer you should know that the lowers are entirely man enough to support the mast if the back stay is removed: the BS of the wire will be several 1000kgs, (6mm is 2800kgs for example), so there is no danger of it failing. The rig is designed to support the mast under very considerable loads, which will not be present when the lift takes place anyway. The spar itself has considerable stength from its shape (form stability of a modified tube) and would need considerable pressure to deform it, which it simply will not receive during a lift.
From the engineering point of view, I think you will find it is simply not an issue.
If you really dislike the idea, then find a marina with a travellift.
|
|
JonJon
|
|
(regular)
|
|
06/07/2008 09:39
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
The lowers do provide support in that they anchor to the deck aft and forard of the mast (Not agreat deal aft and forard tho). Also, they do only go about 7-8 feet up the mast. My fears are probably unfounded as you all seem to be happy about removing backstays - anchoring the halyard to the toerail seems a good thing to do.
So I might risk it. I'll pass the hat round if it comes crashing down.
Many thanks for all your comments.
|
|
Robin
|
|
(regular)
|
|
06/07/2008 10:26
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
We had our previous 2 boats lifted out by crane every year at Davis's Yard in Poole with the mast up and backstay off, both boats had in line spreaders so relied on the lowers for fore/aft support but they were single spreader rigs.
However, we have friends with a Sun Fizz 40 and guess what? They lift out annually at Davis's, by crane and with the backstay off - that should ease your fears a bit. They are away at present so I can't ask if they take the topping lift or main halyard back somewhere for extra support.
|
|
JonJon
|
|
(regular)
|
|
06/07/2008 10:34
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
Thanks Robin nothing like first hand experience with the same boat!
|
|
anteak
|
|
(regular)
|
|
06/07/2008 16:55
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
In the past I have loosened the backstay and supported the mast with the topping lift.
|
|
|
|
Re: Liftin out with crane
|
|
OUr Sadler 29 comes out every year at Davis's with the backstay removed. As well as the topping lift trick they tie lines between the mast and the handrails on the coachroof.
|
