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End of Red
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I haven't delved deeply into this forum so I don't know whether this has been previously mentioned but I note that everyone is still refering to "Red" diesel and who will and will not qualifyto use it.
I understand from local commercial users and suppliers that "Red" will be discontinued and ALL users will purchase normal "White".
Those users who qualify will then reclaim the appropriate tax much as with VAT at present.
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Re: End of Red
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there is masses to read on this subject. Your local users must have an inside track to John Healey's thoughts as one thing which is not under debate is that the government is still trying to work out quite what to do. White, red, blue ... nothing has been decided ... unless I have missed a new report.
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Re: End of Red
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I have heard something similar from a supplier. To much red tape involved in selling red for so few legitimate users.
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Re: End of Red
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You are correct. Government haven't decided how to handle it yet, so any suppliers who say they know obviously have inside knowledge the decision makers don't
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Re: End of Red
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If all diesel is going to be "white" then how will C&E catch people using untaxed diesel in boats, farmers' vehicles etc?
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Re: End of Red
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Good point! Anyone in possession of genuinely rebated fuel could divert it for other than legitimate use.
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Re: End of Red
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I think the idea is that they reclaim the duty, which means visits from HMRC asking them to justify amount claimed.
So they may help their best buddy to a few gallons but no more as this would be risky!
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Re: End of Red
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Farmers will still get red, and fishermen where available. Any one entitled to red where unavailable could claim duty back.
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Re: End of Red
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This sounds madness. Are they seriously swapping a simple system of taxed and untaxed, with a red dye to distinguish (and catch) illegal use, for a mixed system of some red, some white taxed, some white untaxed?
Liveaboards will need two tanks - one of white (taxed), one of white (untaxed). No visible or chemical difference? Guess what is going to happen! Why is everyone complaining - it sounds like a racketeer's charter.
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Re: End of Red
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at the moment it's all speculation, as the government as still working out how to handle it, and have made no announcements
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Re: End of Red
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I agree this is madness, But comes from a well informed source (I think  )We will have to wait & see, But when did any government make sense of such things.
Take the adoption row at the moment, if my kids ended up with no guardians, don't think I would like the possible outcome under the new laws.
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Re: End of Red
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Hi if red is banned how will all the existing users remove the residual dye from their fuel systems?
This is nearly impossible and will make enforcement near impossible.
customs at all marinas and slip ways, random inspections, it is going to cost more to inforce than the revenue raised.
Is diesel for boats cheaper in france?
perhaps a booze cruise is required?
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Re: End of Red
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ask the govt when they finally decide how to handle the situation
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markdj
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(regular)
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10/02/2007 13:15
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Re: End of Red
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Less than 2 days to sign the red desiel petition.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Boat-diesel/
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cliff
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(regular)
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11/02/2007 00:25
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Re: End of Red
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Quote:
Less than 2 days to sign the red desiel petition.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Boat-diesel/
On;ly 1628 signatures - very poor turn out - I guess it is a lost cause now (as if it was ever anything else!)
--------------------
 "Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits
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**DONOTDELETE**
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(Unregistered)
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18/02/2007 07:43
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Re: End of Red
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Quote:
Quote:
Less than 2 days to sign the red desiel petition.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Boat-diesel/
On;ly 1628 signatures - very poor turn out - I guess it is a lost cause now (as if it was ever anything else!)
--------------------
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits
The petition is now closed, with 1720 sigs!
Woooooooooooooooo-Hooooooooooooooooo!
I'll bet our Gordon is trembling at the knees! Possibly could just be having a knee trembler to celibrate! 
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Re: End of Red
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Not enough boaters around, & not enough of them interested!
If anything will work,it needs to catch the attention of the general public as part of a wider issue!
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Re: End of Red
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Shouldnt worry , bliar intends to ignore the 2 million petition about road charges as well.
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Re: End of Red
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I received this email from "10 Downing Street" today.
Quote:
You recently signed a petition asking the Prime Minister to
"Keep trying to renew/retain derogation on pleasure craft
diesel or mitigate the effects of its loss."
The Prime Minister's Office has responded to that petition and
you can view it here:
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page11022.asp
Prime Minister's Office
Petition info: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Boat-diesel/
So.....???
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Re: End of Red
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"Not my fault guv"
Of course, he could have used the veto, ignored it or done anything else the rest of the EU does when a national interest comes second, but Tony isn't like that.
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**DONOTDELETE**
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(Unregistered)
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22/02/2007 04:04
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Re: End of Red
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Quote:
"Not my fault guv"
Of course, he could have used the veto, ignored it or done anything else the rest of the EU does when a national interest comes second, but Tony isn't like that.
National interest?? Um sorry Andrew, but the interests of a few power boaters is not really in the "National Interest" is it?
No I am not being derisory, just realistic.........The government may well feel that they have bigger fish to fry, and may well not wish to get bogged down with something (which in the greater scheme of things) is relatively unimportant?
Of course, for Mobo owners, it's all very annoying etc. Though as the petition only attracted 1720 votes, one might be forgiven for assuming that maybe it's not such a great concern as some would have us believe?
Personally, I think that a lot of the fuming and postering, that has taken place on these forums, is more about making anti government propoganda, than anything to do with fuel. A lot of the time it is the same contributors, making the same noises as they always make, ad nauseum mostly. 
Moboating, as seems to be indulged in by most of the contributors to these forums is a minority pastime.........that's the bottom line really, there is certainly little or no public support for their cause. For the Moboaters, it's almost a shame that the government / EU, were not trying to tax all of the sailing for leisure fraternity, because it seems to me that the the sailing fraternity being much larger that the Moboaters, in terms of numbers, that a lot more noise could have been made?
Hey, look on the bright side, the fuel increase isn't going to bite overnight, it will probably take them more than a year to sort out how best to do it, so make hay while the sun shines! Enjoy what's left of being able to use low cost fuel. You never no, they just might decide that it aint worth the bother, and find summat else to worry about, as if they aint already?
I might say, that it has been noted by many, that the biggest huffers and puffers , on these forums, have been the ones with the biggest and shiniest toys........somewhat anomalous don't you think?? They have certainly not won themselves much, if any support.
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Re: End of Red
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Red per se may not be the national interest, but what about the nation deciding its own taxation rates? That is the point that you have inadvertantly overlooked. We shall gloss over the lack of so called harmonisation of price suggested by harmonisation of tax rates.
You will also find that some of the most vocal are among those least able to fund the EU/NuLabours legalised extortion. If I had loads of money and didn't care about spending it then I'd keep quiet, and probably not have loads of money for long.
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**DONOTDELETE**
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(Unregistered)
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22/02/2007 11:28
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Re: End of Red
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Political soapboxing, and propagandarising (that's a word where I come from!) are not something that I am particularly interested in, and the more people that indulge in it, on what is supposed to be "boaty" forums, the less interested I get...............I don't think I am alone in that.
I am not a Nulabour supporter, in fact, I am not party political at all these days, I used to be what could be called old school Labour, but like an awful lot of people in this country, I am heartily sick of politics, and politicians! No matter what coat they are wearing this week.
All the anti, whatever political party rants that constantly polute these forums, I think, for most, are tiresome, and boring. What do the people who engage in it hope to achieve? They are just preaching to the converted, for sure they wont convince anybody to change their minds with their persistant ranting.
To them I would say......Hey! sometime life sucks!.......Deal with it.
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Re: End of Red
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My only reply to you can be "you deal with it"
I however will try to do something about it, Knowing that I do not stand much chance of changing it, but I will try anyway. 
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**DONOTDELETE**
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(Unregistered)
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22/02/2007 12:19
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Re: End of Red
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Quote:
My only reply to you can be "you deal with it"
I however will try to do something about it, Knowing that I do not stand much chance of changing it, but I will try anyway.
There is nothing that I have to deal with and stroppy / smart ass replies of that nature, are hardly likely to engender any sympathy for your cause are they?
If you are saying that I should deal with the constant political soapboxing and rants, then yes, I agree, and I have, and I have done it by not coming here as much as I used to.
I wonder how many more will feel the same? I have to say though, that all the huffing and puffing will get you nowhere, and you would probably be better directing your energies to other more worthwhile causes?
Like I said in a previous post, there is probably going to be more than 12 months before the new fuel prices kick in, maybe longer, so why not just enjoy what you can?
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Re: End of Red
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What was the point of the petition? How many people did the organisers hope to attract?
All it has achieved is to demonstrate that hardly anyone cares about red diesel.
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Re: End of Red
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Not wanting to be a "smart ass" as you very nicely put it, but if you don't want politics then get out of the only forum where politics can not be avoided (i.e. the red diesel forum).
If you look at my other post (The only way forward) you will see my answers to "robih" show quite clearly that i do appreciate your point of view. If you do not like people beating each other up then don't go to a boxing match! 
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**DONOTDELETE**
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(Unregistered)
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23/02/2007 01:12
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Re: End of Red
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Quote:
Not wanting to be a "smart ass" as you very nicely put it, but if you don't want politics then get out of the only forum where politics can not be avoided (i.e. the red diesel forum).
If you look at my other post (The only way forward) you will see my answers to "robih" show quite clearly that i do appreciate your point of view. If you do not like people beating each other up then don't go to a boxing match!
Yes sorry, my reply was a bit off hand, I already do tend to stay away from forums that are in my opinion overloaded with "Politics".....I would much sooner read boaty subjects. What worries me though, is will there be any forums left soon that don't have some beggar ranting on?? I think quite a lot of 'em could do with winding their necks in, and realise that most of us, just aint interested in reading their incessant diatribes. It may well make them feel momentarily better, but for the rest of us, it's just ear ache!
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Re: End of Red
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I may well consider carrying on my biodiesel protest as in my opinion to put duty up on that is obscene, I will however try not to hijack forums to do it. I will wait till the budget so I know what is really going on. No hard feelings, & I was not at all political before all this nonsense blew up
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**DONOTDELETE**
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(Unregistered)
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23/02/2007 02:21
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Re: End of Red
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I agree with you whole heartedly about the Bio-Diesel! I think?? To be honest, I haven't been following it very closely, but I understand that it is to be taxed at the same rate as Derv??? If it is, then I feel that is unsupportable!
As you say, probably best wait until the budget, to see what is going to happen.
By the way, I don't think anyone would have a moan about people ranting about Red Diesel, if they kept it to the Lounge or the Mobo Forums, or here of course! Trouble is, the political stuff, has been bleeding all over the other forums as well..................and aint you got a bed to sleep in either??
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Re: End of Red
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Stupid cat decided to have a go at the wardrobe (she is convinced that something lives in it!) so brought her downstairs before she wakes whole house up, again
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Sgeir
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(regular)
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24/02/2007 16:06
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Re: End of Red
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Quote:
I may well consider carrying on my biodiesel protest as in my opinion to put duty up on that is obscene.
And you've been using biodiesel for your boat?
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Re: End of Red
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No, but I have tested it extensively in commercial vehicles, & it has worked fine. So why not use it in boats, with much lower emissions than derv & much less harmful to the marine environment!
The current price for biodiesel used off road is 55p per litre & the EU have no plans to set a minimum duty rate on biofuels. Our own government however, have other ideas
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Sgeir
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(regular)
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24/02/2007 17:11
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Re: End of Red
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Leaving aside my previously expressed doubts about biodiesel's "green" credentials, I wonder whether anyone's actually run it in marine engines.
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Re: End of Red
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Firstly if you do some research on the net you will find that bio diesel is certainly considered greener than the fuel most of us use today.
Secondly, if you get a copy of motor boat & yachting march 2007 & go to page 12, you will find that Horizon motor yachts are testing this fuel around the UK. They have the full backing of caterpillar who are honouring any warranty issues.
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Sgeir
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(regular)
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24/02/2007 18:40
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Re: End of Red
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Quote:
Firstly if you do some research on the net you will find that bio diesel is certainly considered greener than the fuel most of us use today.
That was a bit uncalled for considering I made it clear that I did not intend to reopen the debate that I've had earlier on this issue. The fact of the matter is that it's not universally regarded as being as "green" as its proponents make out - opinions differ.
I was merely trying to find out if anyone here actually runs it in their marine engines.
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Re: End of Red
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Quote:
That was a bit uncalled for considering I made it clear that I did not intend to reopen the debate that I've had earlier on this issue. The fact of the matter is that it's not universally regarded as being as "green" as its proponents make out - opinions differ.
I was not trying to be clever, just stating facts.
Why is everyone so touchy at the moment, lighten up, life is to short!
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Sgeir
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(regular)
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24/02/2007 19:47
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Re: End of Red
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OK, I'll try again. If it's so good, why don't people use it in their marine engines? Why haven't you used it for example?
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Re: End of Red
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Because I fill up at the fuel barge, & they don't stock it. They will never stock it if HMG get their way.
I have better things to do with my time than to carry 870 litres of fuel to a boat
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Sgeir
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(regular)
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24/02/2007 21:08
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Re: End of Red
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Quote:
I have better things to do with my time than to carry 870 litres of fuel to a boat
I understand - I wasn't trying to be cheeky, well, not too much anyway, but I think I'd rather wait until you guys have run your boats on it for a couple years. 
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Re: End of Red
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That is why they should not put duty up. There will have to be a period when bio & derv are both available, to allow experimentation, which will cost money. If the price goes up & margins for suppliers go down as would have to happen with a 25p per litre duty increase, Then as a supplier, would you bother, cos I know I wouldn't.
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Gandy
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(regular)
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25/02/2007 18:52
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Re: End of Red
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Quote:
I was merely trying to find out if anyone here actually runs it in their marine engines.
One of the dolphin watching boats based at Lossie does, and since his supplier is actually right near my boat I would love to try it myself. I don't quite dare, though. Bunging it into a 25 year old installation seems a higher risk compared to fitting out a new installation specially for bio operation.
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Re: End of Red
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Talk to a good mechanic. It would not take much to get your boat to run on bio, (maybe change some rubber hose & a few fuel filter changes + check you're fuel pump) & may get you another 25yrs as it is a better lubricant than derv
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Gandy
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(regular)
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26/02/2007 08:30
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Re: End of Red
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Cheers. I guess the problem is finding a mechanic who's truly knowledgeable both on Biodiesel and on the Volvo fuel system.
There's a lot of scare stories doing the rounds. One is that injector pumps containing aluminum components are liable to damage, another one is that water or methanol not properly removed from the Biodiesel during the process can cause problems.
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Re: End of Red
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I would use it if it were available. 1000l minimum orders are no good to me, unless ome form of syndicate gets organised. I'd need a maximum of 260l or so, and usually fill up in 100l quantities so that the tank is pretty full and the actual fill up isn't too painful.
My engine has no warranty of any form and any fixing, within reason, has to be done by me. Ergo I have less to lose than someone with a brand new D4.
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Re: End of Red
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I'd use it like a shot if I could actually get into my boat in decent quantities.
My engines are certified for 100% bio-diesel.
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Re: End of Red
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Tell more: what engines?
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Re: End of Red
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Iveco-Aifo 8210-SRM45-10 and 8041-M09.
It's actually for an 80% bio 20% mineral mix rather than pure. Still a lot better than most engines that only warrant 5% bio mixes.
Some interesting tidbits here - http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/fuelfactsheets/standards_and_warranties.shtm
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