| SimonC |
| (MBM editor) |
| 01/09/2005 10:49 |
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Come and support the Red Diesel campaign!
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Hi
Over the next couple of days, we're taking Calm Voyager to a few marinas on the south coast to raise awareness of the red diesel issue.
While we're there, we'll be handing out flyers, chatting to boaters and (hopefully) meeting some members of the local press. The idea is to put red diesel in the public eye and make sure boaters and non-boaters understand the issues involved.
Obviously it would be great to see some friendly faces, so if anyone fancies coming down to show their support, it would be much appreciated.
Tomorrow we'll be at Cowes Yacht Haven at 11am, and Gosport Marine at 2pm.
On Saturday we'll be at Swanwick Marina on the River Hamble from 11am.
Calm Voyager will be bearing some rather large banners, so we should be easy to find!
Look forward to hopefully seeing one or two of you...
Simon
| Andrew_Fanner |
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| 01/09/2005 11:44 |
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Come up the river too, there's some of us there, and you go past that big building in London where they claim the decision will be made...
| SimonC |
| (MBM editor) |
| 01/09/2005 14:03 |
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We're going to try this to start with, then see how we get on. We don't have time to go on one long trip covering loads of different places, but we might have time to lots of short trips instead.
The idea with the south coast isn't just laziness (promise!). I'm thinking that for some of these places, the marine industry is a very very big deal, and therefore the media will be more interested in picking up the story.
Essentially, if they don't bite then probably no one will, and we'll have to come up with a different plan to raise awareness.
| Andrew_Fanner |
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| 01/09/2005 17:26 |
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Therefore suggest you find places with skint boaters who are more concerned wth fuel costs than the very well off:-)
| whisper |
| (regular) |
| 01/09/2005 19:12 |
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Have to admit that I also think that to raise Public Awareness on this subject is likely to be very counter-productive.
| SimonC |
| (MBM editor) |
| 05/09/2005 18:13 |
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Sorry you feel this is counter productive.
I think we did quite well at highlighting the key issues. For example, we did this interview with Solent TV, which went out on their 6 o'clock news:
www.mbmclub.com/mbm/media/Red_Diesel_02_09_05.wmv
I know what you mean about public awareness and it's a tricky issue, but I think that if we keep quiet we'll never get anywhere. We also got some great quotes from non-boaters with non-boating businesses such as pubs and tea rooms, who went on the record for us to say how much damage a downturn in boating could cause to their livelihoods.
Did it do more harm than good? What do you think?
| Gludy |
| (regular) |
| 05/09/2005 21:52 |
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Whilst i do not think that we can possibly win the public over and can possibly do damage trying to, on balance MBM have done a positive thing with their campaign - you cannot be seen to do nowt!
The best way to fight it is to show how:-
1. It will raise less tax
2. It will damage many businesses as well as directly damaging a succesful UK marine industry.
3. It will damage many coastal areas. Imagine in effect the Windermere effect repeated in many coastal areas - I know its different but they argued that it would not damage the economy because it would attract new visitors ...
4. Its not even logical as we make no attempt to give parity with road fuel taxation.
5. Its almost impossible to police
etc
| klanky |
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| 06/09/2005 04:19 |
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You are deluded if you think you can win the general public over to your side. Most of them look in envy at your white, sparkling toys and wish they could afford the thousands of pounds you spend in Marina fees and fuel each year. As with the Hunting debate, you are generally regard as a bunch of rich toffs by most working class families struggling to pay their morgages, council tax and fill their cars with road diesel at 93p per litre, so I'm afraid your campaign is doomed to failure, still, must'nt grumble, it'll be anice trip and a good piss up.
| Andrew_Fanner |
| (regular) |
| 06/09/2005 10:30 |
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You are missing the large number (majority) of boats that are not white or sparkly, but still use fuel. While a small number of lefties into the politics of jealousy might be in favour, Joe Tripper might be less in favour of the empty harbours and underused canals and rivers.
I wonder how much reduction in license income the EA and BW would face. CF Windermere I'd expect them to be quaking in their corporate boots.
| adrianm |
| (regular) |
| 06/09/2005 19:47 |
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Hate to be negative but I've thought right from the start that getting the general media involved is a bad idea.
You can just imagine on a slow news day the Sun or the Mirror running a story showing a picture of a nurse with a diesel car and a picture of Abramovichs' latest toy with the headline "Guess who pays three times more for their fuel."
| Robih |
| (regular) |
| 07/09/2005 18:46 |
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In reality the loss of red diesel will make very little difference on the rivers/canals as consumption is so low when compared to sea boats. Most river/canal folk would spend more money on beer whilst cruising than on diesel. A non issue.
In general the low tax anomaly is an indefensible argument with many folk struggling to pay £1.05/l to put in their cars to go to work. Blokes whizzing around in 30gall/hour £50k mobo who whinge about fuel price increases will be laughed out of court. RIP red diesel.
I'd best not start on the environmental aspects...................
| Andrew_Fanner |
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| 08/09/2005 09:45 |
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>
I'd best not start on the environmental aspects...................
>
Because they are statistically trivial for _all_ UK boating activity combined, compared with just one week's output from aircraft.
Inland consumption may be lower per hour but inland boats often run for very many more hours than those at sea. If I, on the river, want to run up to Windsor for the weekend that's five hours or so each way. OK, 200 horses at 1200rpm isn't using terribly much, say 5l per hour (guesstimate). 50 litres or about £25. If I was narrowboating from Brentford to Oxford, with not dissimilar consumption, 'cos the smaller engine is running a lot harder, and a common enough trip, say 20 hours running time that would be £50 or so. Without red, that becomes £100+. Suddenly a big hit, especially if you are on any sort of budget.
In my narrowboat hiring days I used to reckon 50 or so hours of running in a week's trip. OK, my approach was "I've paid to use this, so I'll use it" and average hire use is lower, even so, say average 30 hours running per week at 4l/hour, 120l/week and so almost 5000l per year taking into account dead periods and high use. I wonder how many sea boats burn that much annually.
Assume I have overestimated fuel use by 100% and its only 2500l per year per hire narrowboat. I think the point stands, the hire process would become far more pricey.
Ask the IWA how relaxed they are, I suspect that the answer is "not at all".
£1.05 is the fundamentally indefensible part where tax issues are concerned.
| Robih |
| (regular) |
| 12/09/2005 13:05 |
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"Because they are statistically trivial for _all_ UK boatingt activity combined, compared with just one week's output from aircraft"
Andrew,
I get really fed up with people making the comparison with aircraft as a way of justifying fuel useage on leisure boats. Yes of course aircraft use a lot more fuel and create more emmissions that mobo's - but does that really justify continuing to burn diesel at a high rate in leisure mobo's? It's that kind of "playground" thinking which results in a spiralling down situation in many walks of life. I still say that "two wrongs don't make a right" so any comparison with aircraft useage is, for me, infantile.
I hear what you say regarding your personal fuel useage meaning that the pricing will be an issue for you - but I would suggest that 40hrs cruising per week is a very high number compared to the average user and also using 200hp to go up the river to Windsor is mad - 10hp would do nicely. So I think your situation is a little extreme.
| Andrew_Fanner |
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| 12/09/2005 13:36 |
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>>>
I get really fed up with people making the comparison with aircraft as a way of justifying fuel useage on leisure boats
>>>
Why? As much aircraft "mileage" is for the pleasure travel of the passengers I would have thougth that the same justification exists. Two wrongs most certainly do not make a right, but both wrngs need equal treatment, or is leisure motorboating more wrong than leisure flying?
Fair remark re 200HP to WIndsor, but there again 10HP on the Tideway is a bit too little:-) Might be some value in being able to turn cylinders "off" when a lower power output is required.
It all returns to the issue that fuel taxes are unjustifiably high, and that tax rates for road fuel are inappropriate for amrine purposes.
| whisper |
| (regular) |
| 12/09/2005 23:16 |
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Hi Simon. Sorry for the delay in my reply but I've been away.
With regard to the interview, I think that it was fine and your trolling around the S.Coast marinas may get you/us a few more supporters. I think though that in this case you are preaching to the relatively converted and/or those with connections with the marine environment.
However, if the whole picture was revealed to Joe Public, I believe the reaction would be surprise and probably anger that "the rich" people that own boats can buy fuel so cheaply. If this resulted in members of the public contacting their MPs about it then I believe the awareness campaign would almost certainly have been harmful to our cause.
| SimonC |
| (MBM editor) |
| 13/09/2005 12:59 |
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To be honest, I think I agree with you on this.
We deliberately targeted areas where the 'average person' would be sympathetic to the boat industry as a whole. In truth, we met people with no obvious connection to the industry - pub landlords, tea room owners etc - who were genuinely aghast at the idea the the government would do *anything* to upset boaters. They weren't shy to tell us that their businesses rely to a huge extent on income from boaters, and they would have to consider laying people off or even closing down altogether if red diesel increases had a significant effect on the numbers of boaters spending money on their premises.
BUT, as you say, the country as a whole might not agree. Selling the benefits of red diesel is much easier to a landlord in Gosport than one in Birmingham.
So did we do any good? I don't know, but I'd rather go down fighting than sit around complaining about the Government never listening to us. If you want them to listen, you have to speak out.
| Andrew_Fanner |
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| 13/09/2005 14:53 |
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>>
BUT, as you say, the country as a whole might not agree. Selling the benefits of red diesel is much easier to a landlord in Gosport than one in Birmingham.
>>
Pick a landlord near Gas St Basin or by the cut in Tipton, better yet canalside just out of the urban sprawl and you might well get an answer similar to that from Gosport. At risk of harping on that the issue does not stop at HWST:-)
| Gludy |
| (regular) |
| 13/09/2005 16:02 |
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Frankly part of the benefit of the campaign has been the fact that it has drawn the attention of boaters to the issue. A year ago very few even knew about the issue - today it seems that most know about it.
Whilst Joe public may not support the campaign - a fact I accept, the reason for the that lack of support is not logical. In essence we should be fighting the change because:-
1. It damages the UK boating industry.
2. It damages many coastal communities
3. It does not raise any more tax and is likely to raise less - it only takes a 2% drop in the UK boating business to wipe away all the tax collected on diesel.
4. It does not achieve any environmental targets - I for one may well be Med based and using more air fuel.
5. It is impractical to police.
6. Its is disruptive in as much as almost every marina will find it uneconomic to install two pumps - one for commercial red and the other for the leisure boats.
7/ It is likely to cause a political backlash from many coastal communities that is just not worth the hassle.
| Frontier |
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| 13/09/2005 20:32 |
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If it's indefensible now why has it not always been so? Someone must have though it was justified in the beginning.
As for the cost of fuel for cars, it's also gone up for boats. The differential may have even got worse for boats, yet some cars are now getting 60+ mpg and your avg mobo only does 1-2 mpg.
And why should we pay road prices when we are not using the roads, and do not have the advantage of thousands of fill up places such as Tesco’s
| SimonC |
| (MBM editor) |
| 15/09/2005 11:05 |
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Great summary Paul - I think that sums it up nicely.
We've been concentrating on the first three purely because it's hard to get more than one or two points across in one go, but I think you're absolutely spot on.
We've got some good ideas for drumming up support more effectively in parliament. We'll get on the case after Southampton - so watch this space!
Simon
| Gludy |
| (regular) |
| 15/09/2005 12:53 |
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I think the natural instinct of the government - with us currently holding the presidency etc is to allow Brussels to have it way on this one - I hope the polictical backlash just makes it not worthwhile for them. If we can get the complications of what would happen over and the fact it involves amountys of money that do not even register on any goverment radar ..... we have a hope.
The problem was a factor for me in the decision to get out of planing boats and into SD boats.
| Robih |
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| 15/09/2005 14:58 |
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Paul,
I share your hopes; but I fear that there isn't a political backlash from making this decision. I can see the Gov't claiming the credit for "closing another tax loophole that benefitted the super rich in their £500,000 boats" - however incorrect that claim might be!
rob
| GC1 |
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| 16/09/2005 16:06 |
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It's all nonsense, those that can't afford their boats will go and new richer people will step in their place. If that was not the case then why is ANY motor boat manufacturer being represented at SIBS? So there you have it just the wrong people in the wrong boats at the moment, all change at will go on happily ever after
Oh! and the Tea rooms and businesses will get a richer clientel, did you tell them that?Well I guess you have to pretend you are doing something, but I see this stirring up something that has been a big secret to most people (red diesel for boaters) and a backlash coming as to why it has taken so long. There is NO REASON AT ALL why a petrol boater should be taxed any different to a diesel boater. WHY have you not been campaigning to bring down the tax for petrol boaters over the years? All too late and bulsh!t trying to pacify head in the sand diesel MBM readers if you ask me
| Gludy |
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| 18/09/2005 22:10 |
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I appreciate what you say - the backlash should come from the coastal communities hit and jobs lost but I doubt if it will make any difference.
| Col |
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| 21/09/2005 22:17 |
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Quote:
those that can't afford their boats will go and new richer people will step in their place.
How so? Surely they would already have boats if they were inclined towards boating- Moreso if huge disposable income. Why would they wait for dearer fuel (cheaper boats??) eh?
| Gludy |
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| 21/09/2005 22:43 |
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Did you not know - there is a secret pool of rich people who really want boats bt find it too cheap to boat at present ... so they are waiting for the price to increase and then they will buy boats..... mind you if the red causes a price drop because of lack of demand, they will simply have to hold back until something else makes it much more expensive so that they can feel like buying a boat again. .... I thought everyone knew about these people!!!
| Andrew_Fanner |
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| 22/09/2005 11:13 |
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Aren't they called politicians? After all, TB plans to enjoy a pretty fat pension, paid for by dunning us...
| GC1 |
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| 19/10/2005 20:53 |
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New people are being introduced to boating all the time, those that have been brought up with it take it for granted, but there are now some Northerners venturing South and seeing that there is a life to be had and have then found boating
Boats never appealed to me until a few years ago, I thought it was all millionaires who could do it, until I went to a boat show and realised that it would be possible us to afford one, now that is all history and we are luvving it
| Sgeir |
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| 22/10/2005 12:45 |
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Simon, your point (on the video) about employment was well made - but was lost in the special pleading.
Images of your team driving about in a very large and expensive boat with the slogan "Save our Sport" has echoes of the pro-hunt campaign. It comes over to the rest of the public as a lot of rich selfish gits making special pleading for themselves. Except you're asking the non-boaty public for special favours and subsidies not open to other pastimes or "sports"(?).
I think that sort of approach will actually turn the bewilderment of the non-boating public to open hostility.
| Andrew_Fanner |
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| 24/10/2005 14:54 |
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>>>
Except you're asking the non-boaty public for special favours and subsidies not open to other pastimes or "sports"(?).
>>>
I suspect there's a _lot_ more money available for football.
| Kenjohnson |
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| 27/10/2005 11:49 |
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Ye gods, when will it get through that the "rebate" on red diesel is NOT a subsidy? Diesel (and petrol) for road use is subject to tax to pay for the roads. Boats do not use the roads and thus should not pay this tax. In fact, petrol for non-road use should also be road-tax free.
Fuel oil is sold for many other purposes road-tax free, e.g. agricultural vehicles, heating, electricity generation. Surely you are not suggesting they are also "subsidised"?
| whisper |
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| 31/10/2005 18:35 |
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You are absolutely right. For some reason this argument is totally ignored. I reckon most people have become so used to paying for unjust/overbudget government costs that they no longer bother to fight for fair play.