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A few of us were down on our boats in Putney today doing a spot of maintenance, when a flotilla of club boats passed by at 2pm-ish. The first few boats created a small, manageable wash. However, the final three boats were speeding along and created a MASSIVE wash which sent bodies, tools and mugs flying. But the poor bas tards in the coxed eight were practically swamped and got thoroughly soaked (the Oxford crews have been out practising all weekend). The rowers waved and shouted at the boats to slow down, but to no avail. They also did not respond to our hails on the radio, so we advised Teddington Lock of their poor conduct. All the boats were flying a defaced Blue Ensign, and the last offending boat had a blue/black hull. Please, please watch your wash. As it says in the PLA guide for Thames River users " "Be aware of what your wash is doing, both to other users and the banks and foreshore. If necessary, reduce your speed." ." Otherwise, it ruins the enjoyment for the rest of us and gives all Mobos a bad name. OK - moan over. Just had to get that off my chest (after washing off the tea spilt down my shirt earlier ).
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Defaced Blue. That will be the Thames Motor Yacht Club at Hampton. I believe they enjoy special privileges on the river (tongue in cheek) I have seen and heard them demand preferential treatment at St Katherines before now. Though I must say Robin Knox Johnson who was boss at the time gave them short thrift. They have also had the dubious privilege of being banned from the annual ATYC rally for one year with one boat in particular banned for 5 years. |
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This happens every year! No amount of shouting slows them down. Last year I was talking to the PLA about their inactivity with speeding boats when a boat came past too close to the pontoon and at full chat. The PLA boat moved approx 10 mins later and did the same thing. Obviously no chance of catching speeding boat but letting me know not to complain. This year I will take camera and publish pics here for all to see. |
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wait till the 29th.... |
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Ooooooo i vote we all go down there and get [--word removed--] faced on a club night ![]() As a side note why are rowers out when they know boats are trying to get to teddington lock with the tide Do they really think the river is just a special place and the tides have nothing to do with it
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Quote: The clue is in the bit about them being the Oxford crew.... it is the University Boat Race next weekend and they are getting ready for it! |
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Quote: Ahhhhh i missed that bit , your quite right , everyone should have stopped and waited for the next tide so the chaps can practice wowing for a wowing wace
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The TMYC were on a cruise to St Kats this weekend, but surely they are a very good natured lot who never speed anywhere! IanC |
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This flotilla came up through Twickenham just after the Richmond tidal gate opened. If they were in Putney at around 2pm then it took them less than an hour to cover 9 nautical miles. Presumably they slowed down near Richmond Lock, so they were probably averaging over 10 knots for most of the trip. Only twice the PLA speed limit! |
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"10 knots for most of the trip. Only twice the PLA speed limit!" Lets not exaggerate, speed limit is 8knots above Wandsworth. |
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Quote: And they were coming up on the tide so that would have given them a good boost. What concerns me is not how long it took them or average speed but the sheer bad manners and ignorance if they were making excessive wash. No excuse and should be named and shamed! Can't expect responsible behaviour from other river users if we don't behave well ourselves. |
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There is no point or need to speed. St Kats to Richmond sluices is just on 14 miles. Push too hard and you beat the tide and have to wait for the sluices to open. If they left St Kats at 1230 and arrived at Richmond after 1400, they had taken a minimum of 1.5 hours to cover 14 miles. 14 divided by 2 =7. mph. The tidal stream for most of the way would have been around 1.5 knts. So their actual boat speed was probably about 5.5 Knts. Hardly over the top. If you are sitting in a rowing skiff facing the 'wrong way' with your head three feet from the waters edge in a boat with about 6 inches freeboard, I'm sure any wash looks threatening. And IanC, just for your info, I came back on Saturday,the trip from St Kats to Richmond sluices took me just on two hours, 14 minutes . The rest of the trip took me a further 1.5 hours. According to the GPS I never got above 6knts all the way up Richmond , and still I was screamed at by a coaching boat,sans coachees, which over-took me near Putney. Can't win can you.
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Tony - Not always that black and white.... Whereas I agree in this particular situation with an hour to go before high tide and coming in WITH the tide there was absolutely no need to push, so severe b@llocking is due. But sometimes when leaving Teddington to go outbound and wait for the booms to go up at Richmond, the tide is still coming in for another hour or so and hence you are punching the tide, and have approx 2hours to make St Kats within the lock cycle before they shut and you are stuck out on the river all night. In that situation you have very little alternative but to keep within the 8knots limit. Mike |
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out of interest, what was "the rest of the trip"? R |
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Yes, speed limit IS 8kn, and when you're on a rising tide, you can be moving bl***y quick. But river users need to be aware of what impact their wash is having. Forget about looking at the speed log - look at the river bank and other river users...are they being hampered/injured/knocked about by a boat's wash? If so, the skipper needs to take appropriate action and slow down. On the pontoon I was on, it was very clear the moored boats were being thrown about by wash from earlier boats, so the later boats should have slowed down. The rowers in question were in Putney, not Richmond, with plenty of open water and were quite close to foreshore. Yes, they're an angry bunch much of the time, but I think they probably had good reason on this occasion. I think in future I'll check the Club's social calendar for the date of their next downriver outing. Then stay safely ensconced in a pub at least 1 mile from the river - don't want to get hit with the tidal wave do I?
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Quote: What on earth did they do to get banned? |
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They got beaten by Harleyford Motor Yacht Club in a competition and displayed such appalling bad grace such as had to be seen to be believed. I was there and even today, all these years later, I still have trouble getting my head around what they did. |
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Quote: You have a truly excellent alternative to carry on a little further to Limehouse, much better managed in and out, much cheaper and wider tide window. Excellent restaurants in the Commercial Road without being ripped off with the tourists ! ![]() And anyway, in this case they were coming back upriver with a following tide and no such problems. |
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I throw a few logs on all the time,never past moored boats or other boats on the river its wake not speed that does the damage Cheers Joe |
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Beaten by Harleyford - heavens ![]() I'm so glad I didn't join a club on the Thames.. TAKE COVER! Perhaps it's time, Mr. Alexander that you started a club for Gentlefolk (i.e. nice people, don't have to be or feel posh) just those who thoroughly enjoy the river. After you've got all the facilities, a wonderful long lawn (when it's not underwater), a giant marquee, hot and cold running beer a short swimming distance away. What about a burgee - heads of EA and Boat Scheme managers on a trident (vacant prong for GBrown?). Might cause some amusement while we wait for the river to stop running so much, and warmer weather. (Better not go to TVR this year...) |
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But the TVR is full of kind gentlefolk......... and the YBW Forum burgee will be there. |
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"and still I was screamed at by a coaching boat,sans coachees, which over-took me near Putney. Can't win can you." I was crewing a Weymouth 42 round from Ramsgate one Saturday, got to Chelsea Marina pontoon, stayed overnight them came up to Richmond when the tide vwas very low. Through Putney on a Sunday morning the rowers were out in force, such that two of us were on the front. A pair came diagonally across our bows. We went into reverse and warned the rowers, and both the male and the female let off a torrent of foul abuse, against us who were going in reverse to avoid them. We got up to Richmond Lock and had to wait for the lock to open. Suddenly an egg landed on the boat, followed by several more. The same rowers were on the bank, having driven round to catch us there. It's noticable that rowers seem to think it's alright for them to speed & have fun. I've seen the coaching boat of Wallingford rowing club used for jollies at high speed when there's no coaching going on. I slow down for rowers in my own boat, or go out of gear etc, but never have had a cheery wave or thanks, and tobe honest have virtually no sympathy at all for the rowing community who cause most of the problems by their bad manners. IanC |
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yep it needs to leave my hall soon before I am told to leave my hall....... |
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Then show them what a real wake looks like then...
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Richard, what about pinning this thread? |
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Not my call I am afraid but i will speak to Dan in the morning. Thanks |
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Quote: |
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please dont get those rowers mixed up with us canoists and kayakers, we are aa friendly lot. those rowers are unfriendly to us too. what a bunch of s***bags. never mind it could be worse, you could be them. imagine having to live their lives or be in their head with all that snobbery and money earning pressure. we go out on the water to relax and a lot of them go out on the water to be competative and to be realy stressfull. we just stick to the collision regs and try to keep out of their way. if it happens again, you can always get on the vhf and tell the harbour master or marine support and report them. they definatly deserve it. i would want to rip their heads off. have a nice week. alex. |
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It all makes me sad really. My first introduction to The Thames was as a member of a rowing club when living in Putney. I wish I'd kept it up - I'd be a bit slimmer than now
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China, I have found Kayak and Canoe bods extraordinarily friendly, and a great laugh too. Many of them give me the thumbs up if I give them a short burst of throttle to create a little entertainment in the form of skiff-sinking wake (Easy to spot...usually playing in the last boats wake!) and love to chat in locks, or raft up to my bathing platform which has a whacking great handle on one side! Respect to you guys
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Quote: I,ve met a lot of great 'more friendly' canoists who would be very saddened by your narrowmindedness Alexandra! Why do you think they are all rich snobs?, and unless you are more of a machoman than you seem, I think you would find quite a few heads difficult to 'rip off' without encountering more than a little resistance. Bill. |
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I very rarely cause a wash , i'm never in a rush to get anywhere and as Cuchilo is a river cruiser she doesnt give alot off anyway . I think the problem is that some of the bigger boats give off alot of wash even on tick over and on tick over they have no or very little control . So if you are in a group and the ten boats in front of you have had to give some power to move away from the rowers you at the back are left with having to give more power to now get out of the rowers way and battle the wash the others have left just to have some kind of control over the boat . Myself i just plod along and let everyone else get on with it but still get shouted at by rowers . |
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Quote: That is exactly what upset them and cause them to act like football yobbos. The fact that a 'fun' club that doesn't take itself seriously had beaten them in a boat handling competition. |
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Wonder if it was the the same bunch of gentlemen who caused all the problems when we were berthed in Chelsea Haven last Easter. They left St kats and then came up past Chelsea pier at a fair rate of knots causing serious wash.From (hazy)recollection several very large 40ft plus luxobarges including mebbe a big newish Broom ?. |
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Quote: ROFLMAO. Nearly tipped coffee into my lap! |
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Quote: I don't normally get too worked up about this type of post. In fact I agree that all boat owners should show respect to other users and if this means slowing right down so be it. But the original post which I've quoted has stirred up a number of inaccurate and damaging responses. Let me give some facts. The club mentioned by a number of posters i.e. TMYC had been to St Kats last weekend. They came back up river in three flotillas. One on Saturday, of which I was part. There were three boats in total, two of which are 30ft displacement craft and one larger vessel. The second and third flotillas came back on Sunday The first of these arrived at Hammersmith Bridge at 1330, therefore they could not have been the offending craft. The second flotilla consisted of two TMYC boats and a number of none TMYC boats. None of the TMYC boats has a dark blue or black hull. The two TMYC boats did not cause any adverse wash as they passed through Putney. However they were followed by three other craft, note that they were not TMYC, one of these boats was a very large craft with a high fly bridge, perhaps he was trying to get to Hammersmith before he lost the headroom. But that is not the responsibility of the TMYC. Byron keeps referring to an incident which occurred at the ATYC rally some years ago. What a memory he must have. I too was at that Rally as a member of another club, but that was about seventeen years ago and three boats ago. Does he think that it was the same boaters on Sunday as those who attended the ATYC rally all that time ago? It should be remembered that the laws of defamation and libel apply equally to the internet. Before slinging mud one should ensure that ones allegations are accurate, with the facts not in dispute. I quote a piece I Googled before writing this post. 1. What are defamation and libel? Defamation is any published material that damages the reputation of an individual or an organisation. This covers material on the internet as well as radio and television broadcasts - so even drama and fiction can be defamatory if they damage someone’s reputation. You can only publish defamatory material if it comes within one of the recognised legal defences. If it doesn’t, the publication will amount to libel and you may have to pay substantial damages. Libel online Slander is 'defamation by word of mouth' Internet sites are not exempt from any libel laws. If you are publishing on the internet you are bound by the same libel laws as print publishers. In a significant ruling in 2002, the Australian high court ruled that mining magnate Joseph Gutnick could sue publisher Dow Jones under Australian law for alleged libel online. The judge deemed that the web was no different from newspapers or television. In the UK, internet service providers are coming under increasing pressure to close sites containing defamatory allegations. You also have to be careful about the comments others post on your site. There have been cases where individuals have sued online publishers for libel over customer book reviews published on their sites. BTW, the hull of my boat is dark blue, but I returned on Saturday not Sunday. Oh! and while I'm thinking of it. There is a photo of a very pretty red ensign and a jackstaff with a rooster on top published on Thames Thread. Is that a large wash I spy behind the ensign?
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Sorry! Got my facts wrong. I forgot that it was a bankholiday weekend . The days referred to should have been Sunday and Monday respectively. My most humble apologies |
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Quote: Do you mean my avatar? if you look carefully the White Cliffs of Dover are in the distance., thats a bit past Putney. Not sure the tone of your post has done the TMYC any favours, but interesting to here another view. |
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Hi Chris_D, No I was not referring to your avatar. The wash I was referring to is the much more moderate one in the photo of the lost jackstaff and ensign with Windsor castle in the background. I felt that the tone of a couple of the previous posts was doing far more damage to the TMYC, as it turns out completely unjustified. One or two of them were in fact very inflammatory. I think a strong reply to ill considered comments was justified. |
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Quote: So it was you then? |
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Whatever happened it wouldn't have been Grant. I've cruised up and down the Thames, & on the East Coast with Grant for almost 20 years & he certainly wouldn't have been the cause. (for any that went to the Excel Boatshow & can remember the "Start Boating" display, that was Grant's Parkstone 28 as the centrepiece). The OP said a call was made to Teddington Lock, and I notice one of our more regular contributors hasn't joined in this thread. Perhaps he shouldn't being the lock keeper, but he would know (depending on what was said in the phone call) the names of the boats or a description. IanC |
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Ah yes my mistake I didn't see that post. You should be carefull with your inflammatory remarks, the wrong person might be offended
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He was not working that day (tedd lock) |
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I say old chap, bit OTT with the old reaction dontcha think what ho pip pip !? Think the old TMYC shoulders are broad enough to bear it if it wasnt them but had at least one occasion in the not too distant past where some of their boats caused me some inconvenience by inconsiderate behaviour - nuff said. As for talk of libel and slander and whatever far too much angst for the jolly old Thames forum - facts seems to be that 'some' motor cruisers were behaving like cads and needs to be said sometimes. Trouble is noone listens anyway so it will keep on happening and thats the sad bit. |
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No, Not guilty. I think that I've covered the subject sufficiently. I'd better not keep adding to the debate other wise I might end up a Forum junkie. 6298 - 6900- 819 posts. Get a life! |
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How to win friends and influence people.... ladies and gentleman.... we have a winner....! |
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By the sound of things , i was lucky to be rota'd off that day ! All this lawyer speak frightens people like me ....
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precisely the intention.... its 21st century bullying.... |
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Quote: The reason some people have thousands of postings to their name is because they have been Forumites from day one and before... YES before. The boating forums you see today are a reincarnation of ones started well over a decade ago and the post count was carried forward into the format you see today. Additionally they include postings in several other Forums. |
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If as you say these "other" boats had followed your mates, through Putney, presumably they would have all gone through Teddington lock together? After all where else would a blue hulled large craft with a defaced blue ensign go?? So come on then, who were they? |
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Quote: Actually i have this many posts because i dont go to the pub every night and although i have 600 odd TV channels there is sod all on the TV . I also find you lot seriously informative and funny If having a life means having a blue flaggy thing then i am quite happy to have no life
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Ok! I'm hooked. Bullying was certainly not the intention. But, it might just make people think before they make wild accusations in a public forum. By all means make a case, but make it fairly and using all the facts. Don't just throw wild accusations around. That is 21st century bullying. I won't speculate about the blue/black hulled boat, but I do know that it was not a TMYC member. There are only two boats matching that description in the club, one is mine, the other is on a sales pontoon in a Thames marina. BTW I'm not trying to 'make friends and influence people' I've got enough friends but if I can influence people not to tar all sheep with the same brush, I'll be happy. One of the posts states that two of the boats went by without causing any problems. It was the following three which created the wash. Were they flying a blue ensign? if so, there are a large number of clubs and organisations allowed that privilege. I am angry, that I'll admit, but, my anger is aimed at the few who have made the allegations in the thread personal and directed at a specific club, without the accusers having been there in person to witness the events.. I must add that I do not speak for the club in any official way. These are purely my own personal points of view.
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Hi Grant and thanks for your input.The fact remains that a number of skippers leaving St Kats caused problems that day and if my recall is correct,exactly the same type of thing occured over the Easter break last year as well . The sad thing is that the owners of this type of craft have presumably a few years experience under their belts and can therefore appreciate the problems caused.If the craft concerned can be indentified,perhaps some mention of keeping wash to a minimum could be mentioned at the next club AGM. |
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Quote: Quote:
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Shouldn't we just draw a line under this thread? I'm really pleased Grant has got involved in this forum, just a pity that anybody gets angry or upset. Or why don't we find another club to slag off? UTMYC? (run/hide!) Grant & myself have been members of the Thames Vintage Boat Club for years, he's the current Commodore, and there are prob more problems with speeding members of the TVBC (fast slipper launches) than any other local club. Having attended RUG meetings in previous years, it always struck me the the attending committee members from all sorts of clubs, rowers, boaters, fishing, etc, were all very pleasant and reasonable people. It was the actual members out on the river that would cause problems with one another. So I don't think there's any answer than if you feel agrieved with some activity, take note of the full details and pass on to the EA (or PLA in this case). IanC IanC |
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Now that is really interesting. TMYC was at Wraysbury last Easter. This is well documented and I have photos to show for it.
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Dont get me wrong , i have no interest in defaming or joining any club . I would rather spend a day/evening with a nice young lady , or old than be told where i have to be at what time The whole wash thing is really what people need to do on the river as i said before . The support boats for the rowers are just as bad as the skippers of mobos when they need to open up , if not worse and you also get the loud hailer at 7 am But thats the river and i just prefer to enjoy my little boat and ignore all the angry people
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Quote: This was the pet hate of the geezer that lived in the house just before Cleve lock. The ROBOs would come down from Wallingford and turn at his house. Here they would take a break while the Chase Boat bellowed at them through his loud hailer even though he was only a few feet away. This would happen at the most unearthly hours especially in the summer. |
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It's very easy to create wash in the most unexpected places. I spent my youth in Putney, and although the reach is wide - especially towards "Harrods suppository" - very tempting to open the taps a bit, it is very shallow near Fulham FC; the shoals stick up at low water. There are swinging moorings near the boathouses which obscures view of one's wash. For those who haven't seen the shape of the river at low water,it's easy to think that one can push on. So not wanting to condone or decry, to my mind it's a case of "there but for the grace of... go I". Part of the pleasure and responsibility when boating is trying to read the river, which is not so easy to do in a powerful vessel and where one is perched up on high. In a smaller boat, be it dinghy, scull, or cruiser one has less power and more aware of conditions. Flags of convenience have nothing to do with it. |
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I thought there was a boat called 'Jolly Rotter' that had a black hull from TMYC, not sure if that is the case or if it is still at TMYC? |
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That was a Broom 44 with think black lines but a white hull. |
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Quote: which, of course, is why such vessels are so unsuited to river use! |
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OK, since I started this thread, hopefully I can now finish it with a couple of closing thoughts: - It looks like the blue/black hulled boat did not come from the TMYC, so apologies if any of the above threads have caused offense to any TMYC members. - The boat was not called Jolly Rotter, so again, not TMYC. I shall endeavour to keep my wash to a minimum (even around the island at Windsor ) - hopefully other Mobo users will too. Right, I'm off to try and find a life now, with a few tipples down the rub-a-dub.
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You forgot to add Rub a dub is also not a member of the TMYC
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Quote: Allegedly
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Thank you. Apology accepted. It's just a pity that Byron has not had the grace to do the same. He was the one who stirred it all up. But! he's been very quite since then. I wonder why. Subject, so far as I'm concerned now closed. Thank you all for your patience and good humour. |
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Now that is really interesting. TMYC was at Wraysbury last Easter. This is well documented and I have photos to show for it. ************************************************** Really.........did they know things were going to get hot on the river and not make their planned cruise |
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Quote: Sorry been out all day. What do you want me to apologise for? Relating the ATYC incident? OK! everyone, I apologise most profusely and humbly for remembering it. |
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Really.........did they know things were going to get hot on the river and not make their planned cruise I think the discussion veered off towards last easter ( 2007) , in which case , TMYC were indeed at Wraysbury Wraysbury Cruise |
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Really.........did they know things were going to get hot on the river and not make their planned cruise -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think the discussion veered off towards last easter ( 2007) , in which case , TMYC were indeed at Wraysbury Wraysbury Cruise ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Just a wee case of thread drift ......
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You can laugh. I'll be in Scotland next week, but not with my boat. Luckily my motor caravan does not make too much wash, even in the rain.
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Quote:Quote: what i am saying is that if somone threw an egg at my boat and was shouting abuse then it would take a lot to stop me from disenbarking and physicly assualting the assailants. i am not saying they are all rich snobs and i am not classist and i like talking to all sorts of people at various boat and yatch clubs. i just dont like rude behavour and bad manners and bad river behavour. i have witnessed the behavour some of the rowers and what i put it down too is the competativeness of the sport and think that if you treated the pavment as a running training track one's good manners and politeness would suffer. does that explain it better. and as for being called narrow minded and a machoman, well i think that justifies my point about manners and politeness does'nt it. if i defended my self against an assualt (like throwing eggs.) or by some other intimidation by some rowers then that does'nt make me a bad person does it. let's not let this turn into a slanging match, it's good to hear people opinions on the matter. i started my training as a commercial boatsmaster in a canoe and kayak to get closer to the water and to understand it better. even though i now use a patrol boat for my days on the river, i still use kayaks for a nice sunday exercise trip from putney to vauxall. |
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Police , PLA or EA ?
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Remant of my experience of the Motor Boat Monthly Cruising Cub Yobbos. Towards the end of our holiday in Aug 03 we crossed from Hansweert to Ternuzen and tied up waiting to lock in. The lock opended and a number of large working barges exited the lock and cruised to sedaetly past us as they headed out into the Westerscelde. As the last barge cleared the lock a group of motor boats from the the back of the lock impationatly surged out and started to overtake the barges. They achieving planeing speed just about abeam where we were waiting. With less than 20 yards between us and othe outgoing barges. My wife was on the bow and reacted fairly quickly, but I was too slow; before I could reach the stern rope their wash threw us up over 2 meter, the subsequent drop ripped out my port after cleat from the deck. I yelled and shook my fist as my released stern swung out, but the speed merchant cretins behind their Motor Boat Monthly cruise badges just waved when they saw my blue ensign. |
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Quote: I recall hearing something about that at the time. That and one or two other incidents of boorish behaviour. If my memory serves me right I was with Freddy Turner and some Belgians 'pulled' us in the Bolougne Yacht Club as if we were responsible. |