RGH
(regular)
12/05/2008 17:03
"Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

My liferaft will cost half of new to service, instead of buying new thought I would rent for next trip across English channel and not bother to buy one for coastal cruising, what do you all do ? I`d be very interested to know.
RGH

bendyone
(regular)
12/05/2008 17:06
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Buy a new one and put the old one on ebay, should break even.
Having one is nice but like any safety gear only needed if you have problems. thats the gamble.

Kermudjon
(regular)
12/05/2008 17:14
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

It depends a bit on what you mean by "coastal cruising" and what seasons or weather you go out in. I would not criticise anyone for not having one, having sailed abroad with half a dinghy on deck for many years.

Login_name
(regular)
12/05/2008 17:33
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Coastal: No
Channel: Preferably
Further afield: Yes

alan17
(regular)
12/05/2008 17:42
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

If ever you reach the time when you need to take to a liferaft you would hopefully survive to kick yourself for not having bought. They are expensive but so are most safety devices.

David_Jersey
(regular)
12/05/2008 17:45
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Only "Needed" if you sink / catch fire.

I would never recomend that anyone not have one.

Me on the other hand am always happy to do what I want.........

Login_name
(regular)
12/05/2008 18:06
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Of course, but I suspect that the vast majority of coastal cruisers and a large minority of channel cruisers don't have one.
We were asked what do people do, not what is ideal.

Tranona
(regular)
12/05/2008 18:07
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Don't know whether the search engine works, but about 3 months ago there was a long series of threads on this subject with over 300 posts. They displayed all shades of opinion. If you want to know whether liferafts are any good for your situation read the MAIB Leisure craft accident reports and form your own opinion.

Morgana
(regular)
12/05/2008 18:12
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Quote:

Of course, but I suspect that the vast majority of coastal cruisers and a large minority of channel cruisers don't have one.

I agree with much of the commentary above, but not sure I agree with that observation.... I think that a significant percentage of boats nowadays have a liferaft onboard.

Login_name
(regular)
12/05/2008 18:12
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

The RYA booklet "Safety at Sea" (I think) also lists their recommendations. My copy is on the boat, so it's not much help mentioning it is it?


Gludy
(regular)
12/05/2008 18:15
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I would make sure you get a self righting one - if you ever need it there is a 50per cent chance a norrmal one will inflate upside down and they are not easy to right is a rough sea.
Viking ones are very good.

Chrusty1
(regular)
12/05/2008 18:22
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Quote:

Quote:

Of course, but I suspect that the vast majority of coastal cruisers and a large minority of channel cruisers don't have one.

I agree with much of the commentary above, but not sure I agree with that observation.... I think that a significant percentage of boats nowadays have a liferaft onboard.



I would think that a more than significant number do not.....they are too expensive to just sit on the deck as a bit of boaty bling, You will probably see more of them if you frequent the posher boaty areas, and Marinas.....but there are thousands of boats up and down the UK, that are not kept in Marinas, in fact I would venture to suggest, that there are more boats in the cheaper end of the price range where a life raft is not seen as top of the list when it comes to parting with ones hard earned.....From a safety point of view, people who are sailing on a tight budget, make different arrangements for their safety.

homa
(regular)
12/05/2008 18:23
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

What I have done, my father before me and most of my sailing friends:

Coastal sailing - half inflated dinghy on deck, or towed dinghy astern.

Cross Channel - half inflated dinghy on deck or occasionally have hired a liferaft for the trip.

Now I have a young family my priorities have changed a bit, last year I bought a liferaft & fitted it on deck with a hydrostatic release.

Moonfire
(regular)
12/05/2008 18:35
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

If you overnight sail along the coast then I think it becomes more important, likewise if you sail out of season. There have been a couple of instances in the last few years when a yacht has suddenly capsized or been severely holed and sunk at night due to striking a submerged / invisible object - one incident in the Thames and one to the south of the Isle of Wight as I recall. The Thames incident prompted me to go and buy one. If all you do is sail in crowded waters where rescue is close by then the need diminshes, likewise if you are prepared to tow a fully inflated dinghy

alant
(regular)
12/05/2008 18:37
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I would rent for next trip across English channel and not bother to buy one for coastal cruising, what do you all do ? I`d be very interested to know.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just think about it.

Is the English Channel deeper than the Bristol Channel?

Is the Bristol Channel deeper than the Solent?

Is the Solent deeper than the Serpentine?

Is the English Channel colder than the Bristol Channel?

Is the Bristol Channel colder than the Serpentine?


I only know that all 3 are a bloody sight deeper than I am tall, when on tiptoe to my statuesque height of 6' (ok I exagerate a bit).

I also know, that I wouldn't want to be swimming in any of them for hours at this time of year!

So YES, I'd prefer to have a liferaft, should the proverbial hit the fan!

Also, unless you are sailing SOLO, YOU are responsible for the lives & welfare of all the others on board.

You cannot order one from e-bay when you are up to your neck in cold deadly water, so consider the consequences, not the cost!

michael_w
(regular)
12/05/2008 18:45
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Depends on how much you sail. If you treat your boat as a country cottage and rarely head out to sea, a liferaft is an expense you can do without. Hiring will suffice for the annual holiday cruise.

If you use your boat lots and passage make on a regular basis, your needs will change. Even very close to home it might take an hour for you to be picked up should disaster happen. It's a long time to be treading water...

A chum thought it would be OK for him, his SWMBO and his three children, all under the age of six, to rely on the soggy dinghy. I'm pleased to say, I managed to beat some sense into him.

Offshore racing and you must have one on board anyhow.

When I sailed from the Hamble I decided that we'd have one onboard if we were headed out of The Solent. After a couple of races it was cost effective to go for long term hire.

Then I bought one for our Atlantic circuit as we were away for two years.

On my current boat, a cheapo liferaft came with the inventory. This will do us for the next year or two in the North Sea. When SWMBO and I head off in a year or two a new SOLAS raft is on the shopping list.

Sorry for waffling on.

homa
(regular)
12/05/2008 18:48
exposure

Something to consider....

Of the MOB in the N.Sea, I suspect more deaths have been caused by exposure rather than drowning.

So for that reason alone I would consider an enclosed liferaft to be better than an open dinghy.

Just a thought.......

Tranona
(regular)
12/05/2008 18:48
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Do you have details of the incident in the Thames? have not come across that one. The capsized yachts were both extreme racing machines where the keels fell off. Not representative of typical cruisers, although good lessons to be learned from the "Hooligan" incident - well covered in the press.

Chrusty1
(regular)
12/05/2008 18:50
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I just had a look at your Bio......and yes, I can see why you think as you do.....

I think though, that you are ignoring the fact that a lot of people just simply cannot afford a liferaft, and make do with other arrangements.

We see this a lot on these forums, and it's understandable enough I suppose, because it's probably the case that most contributors are shall we say fairly comfortably off? This being the case, I think it's understandable that they don't relate to the needs and financial constraints of thousands of sailors in the UK..........£500 ish, for a 4 man liferaft is about half or a third of the value of some peoples boats.

Moonfire
(regular)
12/05/2008 19:01
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

both incidents involved cruising yachts (not Hooligan); both reported in YM, neither due to a keel falling off, afraid I cannot recall when but trust me I'm not making it up.

BlueChip
(regular)
12/05/2008 19:16
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Liferaft now costs approx £500+, what price the lives of your family and friends?
Its like life insurance, you pay your premiums and hope your family never have to claim
A fire is as likely to happen inshore as on a cross channel crossing.
Life expectancy in the sea this time of the year- jut a few minutes?

mikehibb
(regular)
12/05/2008 19:16
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I Life raft is just like an insurance policy, something that costs extra and you hope you do not need it, but if you get into a situation where you need one you will regret not having one.

I am a med sailor (Coastal) an luckily my boat came with one, I would still have invested in one anyway.

UK sailing has much colder waters, it is not so much how far you sail from the shore, but how far you can swim in cold water espicially if injured or already tired after trying to save the boat.

Down to personal choice, my choice is to have one.

steve_clayton
(regular)
12/05/2008 19:41
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Do your own risk assessment.

1. What's the worst possible impact if you don't have a liferaft?

2. What's the likelihood of you having to use it?

3. Does the cost outweigh the worst possible impact above?

AND if you haven't done it then do do the sea survival 1 day course!!!

My answers:
1 .You, and others whose saftey is in your hands, die
2. Unless your answer is "never" then answer to no 1. over-rides your answer
3. What price do you put on life?

SAWDOC
(regular)
12/05/2008 20:21
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

In the absence of a liferaft for whatever reason, I would not do any coastal cruising without an inflated dinghy or a solid dinghy towed astern.

RGH
(regular)
12/05/2008 20:26
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

You see the orc 6 man cannister liferaft "plastimo" I have was new in 2002, cost to maintain in 2005 was £180, cost to maintain this month £486,( the magazines seem to say don`t buy the cheaper ones), so approx. cost to date of this particular one inc.purchase is £1,866 over 6 years so far, and yes what price safety, I did ask what do you do and I bet the vast majority don`t have one.
However, thanks for your replies.
RGH

Searush
(regular)
12/05/2008 22:20
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I have never had or required one in 35 years of Irish Sea cruising. Mostly inshore/ coastal (where the rocks are!) lots of strong tides (11m springs) overfalls and even a traffic separation zone. Have done passages to Ireland & IoM and not felt a need for one.

Yes, the consequences of sinking without one are dire. But yacht sinkings on shortish passages - like mine, are rare, very rare. I can live (or die) with that. Why do we have to get emotional blackmail to buy liferafts? Aside of oceanic passages, has anyone on here ever used one in earnest (ignoring pool sessions)?

Tranona
(regular)
12/05/2008 23:44
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Not suggesting you are. I can only assume that the capsize was the charter boat that was overwhelmed in the Needles Channel. One crew survived in the boat. A liferaft was not deployed and it is unlikely that a liferaft would have made any difference to the outcome because two of the crew were swept overboard and the other drowned by being trapped underwater in the boat which stayed afloat and was washed ashore.

Still interested in the Thames estuary incident as it does not sseem to appear on any MAIB report.

Login_name
(regular)
13/05/2008 00:11
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

That's much how I feel about it too.

In the Fastnet didn't more people die in liferafts than died on boats? Possibly a false sense of security?

In any event, by all accounts people who have spent any time in a liferaft in real conditions always say that they wish they were dead!

Of course a liferaft is desirable, but I think the implication that it is essential in all situations is a little O.T.T.

I wonder how many of those who reckon a liferaft is essential have not had theirs serviced this year, or don't carry an EPIRB, or who have out of date flares, or have taken a short cut on maintenance, or have not filed a passage plan etc etc. All of these things could be argued as being "essential".

Safety can't be 100%, but it can be managed.

peterb
(regular)
13/05/2008 00:16
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Don't forget the Ouzo. The MAIB report says that if they had had a liferaft they would probably have survived. And don't forget the Wahkuna. They did have a liferaft, and used it. They were spotted by a ferry some 6 hours later (if I remember correctly) and survived. Without that liferaft would they have survived to be spotted? Would they have been spotted at all?

Tranona
(regular)
13/05/2008 00:30
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

The Ouzo comment is overstating the case. This was almost certainly a catastrophic event and it is unlikely that a liferaft would have been deployed effectively. There are no reported cases in MAIB reports where a raft was successful in such (very rare) incidents.

Wakhuna is a very different case as she took some (relative) time to sink and the abandon ship was in an organised manner. It was also almost calm and in daylight. However, in a similar case (Megawat) which also sank slowly after a structural failure, the raft failed to inflate. Fortunately there was another yacht close by which rescued the crew.

Leave you to draw your own conclusions

Nicki_Crutchfield
(regular)
13/05/2008 01:18
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

It's like god; if you believe use it, if not don't.
Nicki

csail
(regular)
13/05/2008 09:49
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I just bought one after reading some MAIB article. I reckon swmbo and i would be fine without (just drysuits and epirb) but having 3 yr old son on board prompted me to buy one. Also we do a lot of night sailing!

alant
(regular)
13/05/2008 09:58
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I just had a look at your Bio......and yes, I can see why you think as you do.....

I think though, that you are ignoring the fact that a lot of people just simply cannot afford a liferaft, and make do with other arrangements.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Forget about my bio, I think the way I do, because I am most of the time working & responsible for others on board. I know that the sea will KILL you if not treated with respect. Also, I definitely don't want to die either & exposure will KILL.

Regarding cost, this is simply bullshit!!

How much is a life worth??

How much do you pay for your household 'FIRE/contents Insurance policy' & how many times have most of us seen a Fire Engine up our street? Probably very few times!

So why do you spend/afford several £100's to replace a few houshold trinkets like your TV/DVD/etc, which can easily be replaced, then question why/if the very item which will probably stop your wife claiming on your life insurance policy (liferaft), is too costly?

I think some consideration regarding your priorities is necessary!

Your life versus your house contents??
A difficult one obviously!

Regarding the Ouzo, if their liferaft had been fitted with a hydrostatic release on deck, would they have survived?

Probably.

To those who state that they have sailed 1000's of miles & never needed one, well done.

However, that thought will be of little consolation when you are in the water & hear your crew/family dying all around you, whilst awaiting the helicopter, that you decided to rely upon getting quickly to your mayday, rather than rely upon your own resources.

How many pockets are in a shroud for God's sake!

RGH
(regular)
13/05/2008 10:06
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Exactly,but I have sailed on all types of boats and most of my friends only hire liferafts for channel type crossings,there must be ideal times when one is able to be used, not in fog tho. there is no time to deploy if you are hit by a large ship, only time maybe to turn and run with it to knock off 5 knots of speed. I agree mostly with "searush"and keep fingers crossed for the future!

Fireball
(regular)
13/05/2008 10:22
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Quote:

Regarding cost, this is simply bullshit!!

How much is a life worth??

How much do you pay for your household 'FIRE/contents Insurance policy' & how many times have most of us seen a Fire Engine up our street? Probably very few times!



Oh gawd - here we go - another "bubblewrap everything because it is safer" post ...

Do you:

Wear a crash helmet, knee and elbow pads whilst walking down the road? You could be hit by anything or trip over a stone so you should really.

Put your lifejacket on and inflate it before going afloat? What if the gas bottle fails?

Do you have a LR in your tender? What if that sinks on an ebb tide ....

Put your lifejacket on and have your survival suit ready when walking along the beach? What if a rouge wave comes in?

Have a full first aid kit complete with leg splints and defib unit about your person the whole time? What if you fall off a curb and have a heart attack?

Is there a Fire extinguisher and blanket ready for deployment when you light a BBQ or operate any electrical equipment? It could catch fire ....

Am I saying that you shouldn't have a liferaft? No ... of course not ... but it is dependent on your perception of the risk. I'm one of those reckless individuals that doesn't wear their LJ all the time - I didn't even put it on last weekend - we don't have a liferaft either - with the sort of sailing we do this chances of needing one are so slight that I'd rather spend the money on items that may actually see some use - ensuring that we don't need the LR to start with ....

A lot of sailing is about risk management - do you have a safety line on when going up the mast - are you expecting the main line to fail? If not, could the spare line not fail too? Should you put a 3rd line on?

Should you be going out in weather where you deem the LR to be of importance - are you expecting your boat to fail - if so, shouldn't you look at resolving those issues first ... what would cause a boat to sink?

1) Mast coming down and puncturing the hull - check the rigging - replace it, have a redundant spare, have bolt croppers to get rid of it as quickly as possible
2) Keel falling off - buy a boat with an encapsulated keel
3) Seacock / Skin fitting / Pipe failure - get the highest possible quality fittings, inspect often, replace before they need it, have bungs/padding available, have suitable pumps and buckets at hand
4) Collision - difficult to mitigate against - could be you are hit by another craft or you hit a submerged object in the water - for the first, make sure you have RADAR and know how to operate - take avoiding action as early as possible, for the second - how about considering making the bow section a sacraficial bow - fill in the forepeak stowage with suitable buoyancy - make the door to the forepeak watertight. Have a keel and rudder design that won't fall off when hit
5) Rolling/pooping - don't go out in weather (or forecasted weather) conditions that would make this a possibility ...
6) Fire - Have additional automatic fire extinguishers onboard in the likely places, make sure all your electrical items are suitably protected, remove gas appliances/bottles, do not allow smoking on board.

Any other reasons you may wish to take to your liferaft?
For many, the risk is so low that it really isn't worth purchasing a LR - you'd do better spending the £500 on a family holiday somewhere hotter!

Kevin_Mac
(regular)
13/05/2008 10:30
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

hear hear!!

Chrusty1
(regular)
13/05/2008 10:34
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Well said me hearty!

But I fear that you may be speaking to the hard of sailing!

Chrusty1
(regular)
13/05/2008 10:41
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Ah well my lovely.....there you go again, making assumptions and blasting away at one size fits all..........

Forget your bio..........hardly, I was simply pointing out that because of what you do, it was easy to understand why you might feel like you do. Trouble is though my old son, not everyone sails like you do, wives, families...crews......Ugh, not me skipper!

See you get them on here banging away about life jackets, liferafts and all manner of things, what they all tend to forget, is that they are talking about what they feel is right for them, and don't give a thought that maybe what they are advocating is not right for others...........different ships different longsplices as they say

alant
(regular)
13/05/2008 10:46
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Oh gawd - here we go - another "bubblewrap everything because it is safer" post ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read my post again!

I said check your priorities!

If your priorities seem to be to ridicule anything sensible, so be it.

Are you saying you cross the road, without checking there isn't a big red bus about to flatten you??

No, of course not!

So, in doing so, you are equally guilty of what you stupidly call "bubblerap everything", or more formally known as "looking out for yourself".

I don't 'expect' to use my liferaft, but I personally would not want to explain to a coroner/wife/mother/child, why their loved one died, simply because my head was so far up my arse that I thought it was safer without one!

What about you??

Fireball
(regular)
13/05/2008 11:05
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Quote:

I said check your priorities!

If your priorities seem to be to ridicule anything sensible, so be it.



There you go again - in your view - having a liferaft is sensible, therefore, not having a liferaft is NOT sensible ... so you are prescribing to me that (should I wish to appear to be sensible) I should have a liferaft on board ...

My Priorities are ensuring that our vessel and crew DO NOT encounter a situation where a liferaft is required. My crew are all adults and if they wish to purchase a liferaft then they are more than welcome to suggest it - it isn't a "NO LR required" - more "We've got better/more important things to spend our money on"

Quote:


Are you saying you cross the road, without checking there isn't a big red bus about to flatten you??

No, of course not!

So, in doing so, you are equally guilty of what you stupidly call "bubblerap everything", or more formally known as "looking out for yourself".



Bolx - that isn't it at all - your analogy is checking the course and weather before setting out ... wearing a crash helmet, knee and elbow pads is just incase you haven't noticed that big red bus and try to cross anyway - at which point you are protecting yourself against your own stupidity and blindness ...

Quote:

I don't 'expect' to use my liferaft, but I personally would not want to explain to a coroner/wife/mother/child, why their loved one died, simply because my head was so far up my arse that I thought it was safer without one!


Luckily, my head isn't up my arse and I didn't assume yours was up yours either - but it seems that some ppl want to PREACH AT me ..
Guilt trips on explaining to family why you didn't have the right safety equipment really is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Can you not accept that some ppl do not do the sort of sailing that makes using a liferaft even a remote possibility?
Sticking with the solent for a moment (as that is our main sailing area) ... rescue services are within 10 minutes should the terrible really happen (you're going to need help if you take to the LR ... unless you intend to row it ashore) - I wouldn't think we'd be in the water for more than 30 minutes, and we quite often go for a swim anyway ... so no real issue there ...

as a final note ...

DO NOT assume you can PREACH AT Me.... I am an adult, I can make my own decisions based on far more detailed knowledge of my requirements than you will ever know, you are welcome to make suggestions, but don't consider me (and thousands of others) an idiot just because I don't concur with your way of thinking.

Tranona
(regular)
13/05/2008 11:53
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Disappointed that all this kind of nonsense is coming out again after the last round of such posts on the topic 3 months ago, but recognise that the current posters may not have seen the well over 300 posts of all shades of opinion.

"Sitting in the water with my crew/family dying around me" just rarely happens except in the most extreme conditions that most of us will never experience - and even then the record of liferafts is not good. Please read all the MAIB reports and base your opinions and decisions on evidence not wild speculation.

With regard to the Ouzo report. Read it carefully. There is no evidence that a hydrostatic liferaft would have saved them - only a "belief" based on the fact that the crew was alive when they entered the water and if they had been able to get in a raft they would have survived. This assumes that the release worked, the raft inflated and they were were sufficiently close to board (in itself not easy). Lots of "ifs" as other MAIB reports will show.

Fireball
(regular)
13/05/2008 11:59
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Quote:

Disappointed that all this kind of nonsense is coming out again after the last round of such posts on the topic 3 months ago, but recognise that the current posters may not have seen the well over 300 posts of all shades of opinion.


That is the nature of forums - topics quickly get forgotten - or someone new comes along with a problem that doesn't quite fit with the other scenarios so they ask a question ...

I see no harm in getting ppl to question the suitability of their own safety equipment.

DJE
(regular)
13/05/2008 12:06
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Sadlers and Etaps keeping smugly quiet on this one. Well we were until I spoiled it!
Personally I rely on the boat's inbuilt foam bouyancy to at least give me time to inflate the dinghy. I have extinguishers and buckets handy all around the boat in case of fire; and I don't carry a liferaft.

Tranona
(regular)
13/05/2008 12:16
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

You are right, of course. Just that the original post this time was virtually identical to the one that started the last threads and many of the unsupported statements in subsequent posts are the same! Still at least its consistent and we haven't got into all the spurious comparisons with air bags and seatbelts (yet!).

Also agree with questioning ones own risk management, but rationally on the basis of evidence, not emotion.

Sailfree
(regular)
13/05/2008 13:08
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Glad to see some sensible comments rather than the typical H & S bullsh*t of don't fail to take one safety measure including the absolute safety measure - don't go sailing!!

Sailing back from Cherbourg yesterday one of my crew mentioned that when his wifes firm moved to Canary Wharf lots of staff asked to be issued with a parachute! My crew thought it was a ridiculous request but the thought crossed my mind that if everyone in high rise buildings were issued with parachutes that worked efficiently at low level compared to life rafts on boats what step would save the most lives - just thinking back to 911 and other incidents of fires in high rise buildings I suspect that over the last 25years parachutes could have saved more lives than liferafts!!


Kinda puts the actual risk in perspective!!

alant
(regular)
13/05/2008 13:27
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Do you:

Wear a crash helmet, knee and elbow pads whilst walking down the road? You could be hit by anything or trip over a stone so you should really.

Put your lifejacket on and inflate it before going afloat? What if the gas bottle fails?

Do you have a LR in your tender? What if that sinks on an ebb tide ....

Put your lifejacket on and have your survival suit ready when walking along the beach? What if a rouge wave comes in?

Have a full first aid kit complete with leg splints and defib unit about your person the whole time? What if you fall off a curb and have a heart attack?

Is there a Fire extinguisher and blanket ready for deployment when you light a BBQ or operate any electrical equipment? It could catch fire ....

Am I saying that you shouldn't have a liferaft? No ... of course not ... but it is dependent on your perception of the risk. I'm one of those reckless individuals that doesn't wear their LJ all the time - I didn't even put it on last weekend - we don't have a liferaft either - with the sort of sailing we do this chances of needing one are so slight that I'd rather spend the money on items that may actually see some use - ensuring that we don't need the LR to start with ....

A lot of sailing is about risk management - do you have a safety line on when going up the mast - are you expecting the main line to fail? If not, could the spare line not fail too? Should you put a 3rd line on?

Should you be going out in weather where you deem the LR to be of importance - are you expecting your boat to fail - if so, shouldn't you look at resolving those issues first ... what would cause a boat to sink?

1) Mast coming down and puncturing the hull - check the rigging - replace it, have a redundant spare, have bolt croppers to get rid of it as quickly as possible
2) Keel falling off - buy a boat with an encapsulated keel
3) Seacock / Skin fitting / Pipe failure - get the highest possible quality fittings, inspect often, replace before they need it, have bungs/padding available, have suitable pumps and buckets at hand
4) Collision - difficult to mitigate against - could be you are hit by another craft or you hit a submerged object in the water - for the first, make sure you have RADAR and know how to operate - take avoiding action as early as possible, for the second - how about considering making the bow section a sacraficial bow - fill in the forepeak stowage with suitable buoyancy - make the door to the forepeak watertight. Have a keel and rudder design that won't fall off when hit
5) Rolling/pooping - don't go out in weather (or forecasted weather) conditions that would make this a possibility ...
6) Fire - Have additional automatic fire extinguishers onboard in the likely places, make sure all your electrical items are suitably protected, remove gas appliances/bottles, do not allow smoking on board.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

And all this is relevant is it?

looks exactly like preaching to me.


"Me.... I am an adult, I can make my own decisions"

Seems to me, that you are making decisions for other people, who have no choice. Next time I get on a ferry in the Solent, I'll suggest to Whitelink, that they could save lots of overhead costs by leaving their liferafts ashore. Probably allow more passenger room as well.

"I wouldn't think we'd be in the water for more than 30 minutes, and we quite often go for a swim anyway ... so no real issue there ... "

So, if you can guarantee that the survival time for 'everyone' on your boat if they are in the Solent at present must be at least 30 minutes, then not much point in any rescue services hurrying is there.

"My crew are all adults "

You still have a duty of care, regardless of their age.

"My Priorities are ensuring that our vessel and crew DO NOT encounter a situation where a liferaft is required."

So sadly, the Ouzo went down, with 3 crew dead, even though they would obviously have had similar priorities to the one your giving. Just proves, that thinking you have a priority doesn't eliminate risk. I assume you have not got any lifejackets either, since with this ethos, you will obviously never need them.


"but don't consider me (and thousands of others) an idiot just because I don't concur with your way of thinking."

1) don't consider that you speak for or represent thousands of others!
2) I didn't specifically mention you were an idiot, however if its a term you wish to adopt, feel free to use it.

In the end, if you are prepared (as you obviously are) to compromise on safety, I sincerely hope you continue to have such luck.

Fireball
(regular)
13/05/2008 13:38
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Quote:

And all this is relevant is it?

Yes - it's your attitude to risks
Quote:

looks exactly like preaching to me.

Just making suggestions as to how to mitigate those risks
Quote:

"Me.... I am an adult, I can make my own decisions"

Seems to me, that you are making decisions for other people, who have no choice. Next time I get on a ferry in the Solent, I'll suggest to Whitelink, that they could save lots of overhead costs by leaving their liferafts ashore. Probably allow more passenger room as well.

The other adults DO have a choice ... they don't have to come aboard if they don't want to, they can (as I did say and you ignored) suggest the purchase of a LR if they wish.

Quote:

"I wouldn't think we'd be in the water for more than 30 minutes, and we quite often go for a swim anyway ... so no real issue there ... "

So, if you can guarantee that the survival time for 'everyone' on your boat if they are in the Solent at present must be at least 30 minutes, then not much point in any rescue services hurrying is there.

Can you guarantee that your LR will inflate? Can you guarantee that everyone will be able to get in it safely ... you are assuming that a LR = 100% safety guaranteed - which is bolx

Quote:

"My crew are all adults "

You still have a duty of care, regardless of their age.

Whilst I don't disagree with the statement I fail to see how this translates to "Must have a LR"

Quote:

"My Priorities are ensuring that our vessel and crew DO NOT encounter a situation where a liferaft is required."

So sadly, the Ouzo went down, with 3 crew dead, even though they would obviously have had similar priorities to the one your giving. Just proves, that thinking you have a priority doesn't eliminate risk. I assume you have not got any lifejackets either, since with this ethos, you will obviously never need them.


We do have LJ's (you really didn't bother reading my post did you - some instructor you must be!!)

Quote:


"but don't consider me (and thousands of others) an idiot just because I don't concur with your way of thinking."

1) don't consider that you speak for or represent thousands of others!

I don't speak on behalf of thousands of others - they have their own voice, however, I do KNOW there are thousands of others who do not consider LR a necessity for them

Quote:


2) I didn't specifically mention you were an idiot, however if its a term you wish to adopt, feel free to use it.

In the end, if you are prepared (as you obviously are) to compromise on safety, I sincerely hope you continue to have such luck.

I suggest you don't ever go out of your house, and even then you will be compromising on safety ... nothing is 100% safe, nothing ever will be ... and I'd hate to live in the sanitised world that you appear to dream of.

Chrusty1
(regular)
13/05/2008 13:46
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Now I don't know whether you realise it, but your posts on this subject are bordering on being confrontational, maybe you don't intend them to be, but I have to tell you, that you are not going to convince anyone, by posting in such a manner. Your way of doing things may well suit you, but I think that you have to accept, that your way, is not necessarily the right way for other people, nor would your way be appropriate for the type of sailing that some others participate in. Why don't you stop banging the table and engage with people in a calm and reasonable manner, instead of trying to just score points off people.

As I am sure you know, this subject was done to ashes, a while back, and I doubt very much that anything that was said by anyone, has changed the way people feel about things, only reasonable and thoughtful discussion will / might achieve that.

Clifford_Pope
(regular)
13/05/2008 13:50
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

You can always take any theoretically dangerous situation and imagine yourself facing your or your family's imminent death. At that theoretical moment obviously you would be prepared to pay any sum of money within your resources in order to be rescued.
You didn't insist on your child wearing a crash helmet when walking round Tescos. Now a stack of baked bean tins has fallen on her and killed her. Why oh why did you penny pinch and not spend £5 on a basic helmet? Surely a child's life is worth £5 or £50 or £500 or a million ?

That cannot possibly be a basis for rationally determining risk and how much it is reasonable to accept and at what price?

Nor for criticising the different decision of someone else, especially if they cannot afford the cost of the protection?

Fireball
(regular)
13/05/2008 14:06
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I agree - with perhaps one minor alteration - not being able to afford the safety gear doesn't automatically mean it is ok to carry on without it .... sometimes a particular item of safety gear should be considered indispensable.

I would consider a VHF to be indispensable - at the very last resort a mobile phone.

Tranona
(regular)
13/05/2008 14:07
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Sorry, alant but you seem to be blinded about liferafts being a viable and necessary piece of safety equipment for yachtsmen. Unfortunately the evidence is against you. The chances of your yacht foundering are close to zero (17 cases in the last 12 years in UK and Irish waters or involving UK registered yachts elswhere and almost all in situations that most are unlikely to ever encounter). In 7 cases liferafts were deployed of which two were entirely successful, one failed to work and the other 4 were only partially successful.

All of this is in the public domain in the MAIB and MCIB reports.

You owe it to the people you are training and giving advice to (and youself) to read all these reports so that your opinion and advice is based on fact and not speculation on what "might" happen.

We can all imagine scary scenarios and there are examples of extreme situations that have arisen, but they are far removed from the lived reality of our own lives and sailing practices. The only possible exception is collision, and even then there are only 5 reported cases at sea of which only 2 resulted in loss of life in that period plus two others in a commercial harbour, one of which resulted in loss of life (and where a liferaft would not have changed the outcome).

Amazing is it not that there are so few. Says a lot for standards of seamanship and quality of equipment available to us to allow us to stay clear of big ships and navigate safely in our crowded waters.

alant
(regular)
13/05/2008 15:11
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

"Can you guarantee that your LR will inflate? Can you guarantee that everyone will be able to get in it safely ... you are assuming that a LR = 100% safety guaranteed - which is bolx"

"In 7 cases liferafts were deployed of which two were entirely successful, one failed to work and the other 4 were only partially successful."

"advice is based on fact and not speculation on what "might" happen."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

To all these comments, there is one definite conclusion.

If you DO NOT have a LR, then you can be 100% certain, that it cannot work!

Yes there are failures.

Yes there are few situations when they have been used in anger by yotties.

So, does this still allow you to say with certainty that they are a waste of space?

This is definitely bolx (as you say).

alant
(regular)
13/05/2008 15:20
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

In 7 cases liferafts were deployed of which two were entirely successful, one failed to work and the other 4 were only partially successful.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


This suggests to me an 85% success rate.

Bloody marvelous I would think, if I was one of the guys about to get into one.

Fireball
(regular)
13/05/2008 15:23
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Quote:

So, does this still allow you to say with certainty that they are a waste of space?

This is definitely bolx (as you say).


Please identify EXACTLY where I said they are a waste of space?

I said: "Am I saying that you shouldn't have a liferaft? No ... of course not ... but it is dependent on your perception of the risk." and "For many, the risk is so low that it really isn't worth purchasing a LR - you'd do better spending the £500 on a family holiday somewhere hotter! "
The evidence given by others show that statistically you are highly unlikely to need a LR in UK coastal waters, even then 70% of the deployments were a failure (not that I would give much credence to such a low sample size.)

Please stop talking absolute crap - as a registered/qualified RYA instructor with 30+ years experience you really should know better.

Tranona
(regular)
13/05/2008 15:24
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Never said they were a waste of space. I have one on one of my own boats. All I am saying is that this emotive talk about the dangers is out of line with the facts.

Much legislation/regulation and opinion is based on "mights" rather than responding to the evidence of "what is". Once it becomes normal practice it becomes accepted - even though it may be wrong. Speed and road accidents is another area of modern life where dogma overrides reality. But on the other hand how many people do you see driving around without wearing their seatbelts when there is overwhelming evidence that they save lives every day. And the probability of having an accident on the road is infinitely higher than at sea, mainly because you are also at risk from the actions of others - very rare at sea!

Fireball
(regular)
13/05/2008 15:28
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Sorry - you are really talking out of your rear end here ...

7 deployments (gawd knows how many ppl carry them and how many trips where may be needed - but I'd guess it is in the millions)
of those 7, 2 were succesful - that is 28.5% chance of success. 4 were only partially successful - ie a failure - 56% only partially succeesful then ... therefore 14.25% failure ...

as I said - 7 deployments doesn't make for good statistics - the sample size is far too small to be of any use. The figures given do not give any other variables - make/size/age/last service so you cannot use any of these figures.

jack_sparrow
(regular)
13/05/2008 15:37
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I cruise the South Coast and France, so pretty much coastal.
This is done with SWIMBO and a young family - so most Definatly have our own liferaft.

I bet those three unfortunate souls from the Ouzo wished that they had had a liferaft. They may not have had time to put out a distress call, however a LR would probably have prevented them from expiring from hypothermia.

With family on board the consequences of not having a LR do not bear thinking about.

stevebrassett
(regular)
13/05/2008 15:37
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I cruise on the East Coast, and am rarely more than half a mile offshore. There are no rocks where I sail, and the mud won't puncture my hull (I know - I've hit it often enough). I don't have a liferaft, and have no intention in getting one for this boat. I mostly single-hand, and anyone coming sailing with me is made aware in advance that I don't have a liferaft. I don't have plumbed-in gas. I have lifejackets that I periodically inspect and test. I always have in-date flares, and I have fixed VHF, H/H VHF and an emergency aerial. No-one will convince me that I need a liferaft.

Fireball
(regular)
13/05/2008 15:45
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

In your situation I'd probably shell out for a LR ... or hire one for the X Channel hops ...

The MAIB report suggests that a LR MAY have been of help to the Ouzo crew - but then so would a sodding great big engine and hydrofoils - IF ... and only IF they were aware the assumed collision would occur. I think the only 100% hard fast thing we can learn from the Ouzo is that you cannot rely on others to avoid a collision.

Quote:

With family on board the consequences of not having a LR do not bear thinking about.


I've had family on board with no LR .... the consequences were .... fun time had by all and they want to go sailing again ...

Sorry - with young family on board you do not take the same sort of risks - and if you don't have a LR then you take that into account when planning your passages.

LR is there (for those that have them) as a last resort - not a "Get out of danger free" card ...

I'll make a suggestion - sail as though you don't have any safety gear onboard ... you'll be much safer!

DogWatch
(regular)
13/05/2008 15:58
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Have you met Gludy?

Paul - Alan, Alan - Paul, right I'll leave you two to get acquainted.

Fireball
(regular)
13/05/2008 15:59
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I would've thought GC1 would be more appropriate!

DavenHelen
(regular)
13/05/2008 16:02
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Quote:

LR is there (for those that have them) as a last resort - not a "Get out of danger free" card ...



A Life Raft is part of a risk mitigation exercise and I am sure most here would agree it is there as a last resort. The obvious question is, without a Life Raft, what is the last resort (apart from Drowning).

Tranona
(regular)
13/05/2008 16:11
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Jack When would you ever take your family into any conditions where a boat like yours would be in danger of being overwhelmed? And when would you ever get anywhere near a big ship that might hit you? And how many cases are there of a Beneteau like yours suffering a structural failure that caused it to sink? If the answer to these questions is No then you don't need a liferaft.

And if you think that a raft is going to be effective in saving your family in the millions to one chance that one of these things does happen to you, read the reports and go on a survival course including going into a raft with your family. Then ask them if they would like to do it for real or would they prefer to rely on your skill and knowledge in avoiding such situations.

Bet they would choose the last option and THAT is where your responsibility lies.

Fireball
(regular)
13/05/2008 16:15
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

The obvious answer is LJs ... but as I'd posted above (and don't intend to repeat) - you can do a lot more to prevent needing a LR in the first place - at which point you have to ask yourself if it is worth the expense - which will depend on your circumstances.

There is no one right answer to everything. (except 42 of course, which is the answer to life, the universe and everything)

Fireball
(regular)
13/05/2008 16:19
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

I'm going to have to disagree with you a little there ...

In Jacks situation, we are aware that conditions can change - if he's south coast UK and northern france, then that includes CI's where fog is a common occurrence ...

Whilst Jack will (I hope) do everything in his power to avoid the need for a LR, events can get out of control - in which case I think the family would prefer both options (I certainly would).

The OP was asking about UK Coastal sailing ... which I took to exclude trips across any of the channels ...

QuestGirl
(regular)
13/05/2008 17:08
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Quote:

My liferaft will cost half of new to service, instead of buying new thought I would rent for next trip across English channel and not bother to buy one for coastal cruising, what do you all do ? I`d be very interested to know.
RGH



To get back to the original question, we don't have a liferaft and we have crossed the Channel without one but with an inflated dinghy. Whilst crossing, we wore our lifejackets all the time we were in the cockpit and clipped on with safety harnesses any time either of us had to go forward.

We have a personal EPIRB, a handheld VHF and mobile phones kept in the grab bag whilst on longer passages - if you can't call for help (and get it fast) in the Solent, chances are you wouldn't have made it into the liferaft either.

That said, it is just the two of us (plus dog, who doesn't get a vote ) and we have discussed it and agreed that we are both happy with the decision not to have a liferaft. If we had children or were regularly taking other people on longer passages, we might reconsider.

WindFinder
(regular)
13/05/2008 17:51
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Quote:

Jack When would you ever take your family into any conditions where a boat like yours would be in danger of being overwhelmed? And when would you ever get anywhere near a big ship that might hit you? And how many cases are there of a Beneteau like yours suffering a structural failure that caused it to sink? If the answer to these questions is No then you don't need a liferaft.




I'd have to have some sympathy with that view.

Would a liferaft survive a fire or a collision? How likely is total loss of a boat anyway?

People have survived all sorts of weather in open boats and if you've got a sensible way to summon help you'll usually be rescued in the the Channel within a couple of hours.

If a LR is so essential why do people risk taking only one? Would it not be wiser to have one on the bow and one on the stern where they are more likely to survive an incident.

I'd want to see some figures on the occurance of total losses of yachts followed by a lengthy time in the water before I could support a view that LR were essential.

Mind you, hard to think of a reason apart from cost and weight not to have one (or two!).

When I consider the risk of the drive to the marina I find it hard to get excited about the miniscule additional risk of not carrying a LR.

Let's not forget a dinghy has significant advantages over a LR as well as the disadvantages.

Tranona
(regular)
13/05/2008 19:39
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

The data is all there in the MAIB and MCIB reports I refer to. There is only one case in the Channel where a yacht was hit in the fog, and the report suggested that better radar procedures could have prevented it.

There are absolutely no cases of a family cruiser with family on board foundering in a way that would require a lferaft. Having one is an emotional not rational decision - as suggested by the language used to justify the decision.

As I have already stated, with the possible exception of collision all cases are either in extreme conditions we are unlikely ever to experience or the result of a catastrophic failure and therefore unlikely to happen to a responsible family skipper in a well found yacht.

jordanbasset
(regular)
13/05/2008 20:39
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

You are right, certainly statisctically you are in far more danger driving on the road than sailing, with or without a life raft. What you should do is take the train or fly whnever possible, costs a lot more normally, but what price safety? But most people don't, including me, the car is convenient and often quicker over short distances. In fact it could be argued if you want to keep your family safe, don't drive but go sailing with or without said life raft.

Even so if I had my family on board I would probably let my illogical and emotional side win and have a life raft. Just in case of that one in a million or ten million chance happened and I was left wondering if only I got one.

alant
(regular)
13/05/2008 23:40
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Whilst Jack will (I hope) do everything in his power to avoid the need for a LR, events can get out of control - in which case I think the family would prefer both options (I certainly would).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Make up your mind!

How does any of your earlier stuff match

"I think the family would prefer both options (I certainly would)."?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"events can get out of control "

Surely not -

"My Priorities are ensuring that our vessel and crew DO NOT encounter a situation where a liferaft is required."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Whilst Jack will (I hope) do everything in his power to avoid the need for a LR, events can get out of control -"

I'm sure that Jack will get much reassurance from this statement.

alant
(regular)
13/05/2008 23:45
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Having one is an emotional not rational decision
------------------------------------------------------------------------

How can you possibly say that?

"Just in case of that one in a million or ten million chance happened and I was left wondering if only I got one."

Exactly

& confirmed by

"Whilst Jack will (I hope) do everything in his power to avoid the need for a LR, events can get out of control -"

&

"I think the family would prefer both options (I certainly would)."?

alant
(regular)
13/05/2008 23:47
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

If a LR is so essential why do people risk taking only one?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because one is much better than none!

DogWatch
(regular)
14/05/2008 00:30
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Quote:

Having one is an emotional not rational decision
------------------------------------------------------------------------

How can you possibly say that?




I am not looking to battle. Have you re-read any of your posts, the language you use is unbelievable, were you previously in sales before becoming a boat mover? The sort of guilt you are dishing out is akin to the language used by home security salesmen or locksmiths.. Make your home impenetrable or you might as well kill your wife and children yourself!

Do what Alan says or prove to the world that you hate your family. If you were selling LR's at the boat show 90% of prospective customers would tell you where you could put it, the other 10% might lamp you..

I can see your point of view, no really I can, it is just a shame you seem to be steadfast in not seeing anyone else's.

As I said, I am not looking to fight, not interested, just thought I would try to answer this question, 'How can you possibly say that?'.

DogWatch
(regular)
14/05/2008 00:31
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Quote:

If a LR is so essential why do people risk taking only one?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because one is much better than none!



Now you are definitely trolling, bored of this.

Fireball
(regular)
14/05/2008 06:22
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

You must be really thick ... or as DW suggested - a troll ...

at no point have I said you shouldn't have a LR ... I have only said that not everyone needs one - it depends on personal circumstance ...

my circumstance - south coast sailing - mostly solent ... generally all adult crew - no LR required.
if my circumstance changed to include more X Channel and young family then I would reconsider - even though the chances of using it are still miniscule.

alant
(regular)
14/05/2008 08:19
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK

Do what Alan says or prove to the world that you hate your family

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not my opinion, its the opinion of every seafaring authoritati