| cardinal_mark |
| (regular) |
| 14/05/2008 12:04 |
Boarded by plod
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Last weekend we were drifting aimlessly around Chichester bay - making a mighty 2 kts IIRC! - when all of a sudden 'the black rib' approachd and asked if it was okay to come aboard. Sure I said, no problem. They were perfectly polite and simply took a few details, checked that it was my boat and that I didn't have any terrorists down below, which of course I didn't; although I'm not sure what they made of the overly friendly Airedale roused from her slumber!
Anyway, one then asked if all three children were ours. Two of them were, the other was a friend of my 9 year old daughter... 'do you have a letter from her parents to confirm that it is okay for her to be with you out here?' they asked. Er no! Well you should really, especially on a boat... but she looks happy enough so I'm sure its fine...
A couple of things struck me; why board a boat that is clearly just a white middle(ish) class family making the best of the weather (is it prove that everyone is treated equally?) and WTF is all this about letters from parents???
They must have been really bored is all I can guess! Whadayareckon?
Mark
| Chrusty1 |
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| 14/05/2008 12:09 |
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Well if "white middle-ish class families" make a habit of refering to them a "Plod".....it's a wonder that you are not boarded on a more regular basis!
Followed swiftly by a damn good rodgering with a riot stick!
| Flipper_K6354 |
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| 14/05/2008 12:09 |
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Quote:It is burocracy and 'elf and safety gone mad.
'do you have a letter from her parents to confirm that it is okay for her to be with you out here?' they asked. Er no! Well you should really, especially on a boat... but she looks happy enough so I'm sure its fine...
I help run a Sea Scout group and the paperwork is horrendous. We have to get permission slips for everything. I am qualified as a YM and according to Scouts rules can only take 1 keel boat up to 500meters from the shorein summer and have to stay in quiet estuaries in winter!
| Galadriel |
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| 14/05/2008 12:16 |
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I think you already worked it out, no suspicious looking Araby types trying to hide behind West Pole or blend in with the dinghy racing, so some 'action' had to be recorded in the log book.
You dont say, but was SWMBO, uh, er, 'properly attired? An attractive lady in a swimming cossy might have caused you to be singled out.
good point about the letter though. On Friday (if the rain keeps off) we will have 160 children out on the water on 50 diffferent boats, hope the schools got a letter from the parents!
| Flipper_K6354 |
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| 14/05/2008 12:24 |
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Quote:Can't they go out if it is wet?
On Friday (if the rain keeps off) we will have 160 children out on the water on 50 diffferent boats,
| shmoo |
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| 14/05/2008 12:30 |
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Quote:
asked if it was okay to come aboard.
I wonder what the reaction would have been if you had politely declined, unless they were prepared to invoke powers and make it clear exactly which ones they were invoking and on what grounds.
I actually think the question about the ownership of the kids was an invasion of privacy, and if asked in front of kids, very insensitive. Not everyone has straightforward family relationships these days and it could be hurtful or embarrassing to discuss them. Just because you are dressed up in a black play suit doesn't give you the right to pry like that.
| halcyon |
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| 14/05/2008 12:31 |
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Quote:
why board a boat that is clearly just a white middle(ish) class family making the best of the weather ?
It was safer than one with people that looked like terrorists.
Brian
| Chrusty1 |
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| 14/05/2008 12:37 |
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Your attitude beggars belief!...........They have every right, and I hope they are never made to feel that they shouldn't be asking questions.
Maybe you should be thinking less of petty sensitivities, and more about why they are there in the first place, and maybe, just maybe mind, being glad that they are there, and being a bit supportive of them.
I wonder in fact, if a lot of the "plod knockers" on these forums, just resent the idea that there is somebody that has authority over them? It does seem to be a bit of a favourite passtime on here.
| Galadriel |
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| 14/05/2008 12:38 |
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Quote:
Can't they go out if it is wet?
Yes of course they can, I'll have oilies on!
| KevB |
| (regular) |
| 14/05/2008 12:43 |
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Well I'll have the covers up and the heating on. Can you do that on a yacht?
| Morgana |
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| 14/05/2008 12:44 |
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yup.... if we are prepared to sail something that looks like a gloss painted brick....
| KevB |
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| 14/05/2008 12:46 |
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Of course I don't normally keep the covers on but it's all in the interest of keeping the kids dry and warm
| deisel |
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| 14/05/2008 12:50 |
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If Your Boat Had Been Nicked Youd Be Glad Their Were Out There Boarding Boats!!!!
| FullCircle |
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| 14/05/2008 12:52 |
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No, Chrusty, its your attitude that beggars belief. They do not have the automatic right, which is why they asked. Of course, if you refused then they 'may' go and get the authority/warrant, but they would need to justify their actions very clearly.
Thi is not Plod knocking as you call it, just a sensible use of the checks and balances in the UK law. They need to have the correct authority if they wish to force the issue. An individual choice to comply or not with what may or may not be a reasonable request.
(My Brother In law is Plod)
It is not petty sensitivities, and our rights are being eroded continually in the face of defeating the enemy, allegedly. You may well support the 42 day detention, but I certainly don't.
| cardinal_mark |
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| 14/05/2008 12:53 |
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I agree. Once we'd laughed off the bit about the letter we did actually appreciate the benefits of having a police presence. If anyone's kids, or worse still, their boat
has been abducted then having a police presence actually on the water can be no bad thing.We actually ended up signing on for some kind of rekindled 'harbour watch' type thing - so we are now official undercover agents.... PWC users watch your step!!
Mark
| Tarian |
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| 14/05/2008 12:55 |
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It certainly seems a bit over zealous of the police. It doesn't sound as if they had any real reason to stop you or come on board. If Chichester is now seen as an area at risk from terrorism, perhaps we should be told?
Why on earth do they think that written permission is required to take someone else's child on board a boat? Surely this is absolute nonsense? Unless the police are properly briefed, they might find themselves very busy when we take the kids out this Friday...come rain or shine.
| DavenHelen |
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| 14/05/2008 12:58 |
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Quote:
...........They have every right...
Or maybe they don't.
| Chrusty1 |
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| 14/05/2008 13:01 |
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Hi Mark,
Sorry I let fly at you a bit, but it's just all these perishing know it alls on these forums that get on my tits. As someone has just intimated that the Police don't have a right to board a vessel without a warrant, they had best think again! They only have to have reasonable suspicion, and as far as I am concerned they can board as many, and whoever's boats, including mine, as often as they wish.
As Diesel said, if some-one had their boat stolen or broken into and robbed, they would probably view things in a different light.
Anyway, apologies, just feeling a bit more grumpy than usual today!
| shmoo |
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| 14/05/2008 13:06 |
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Quote:
They have every right, [to ask questions and search]
I am afraid they don't, and since these officers asked politely I am sure they knew that. Well, I suppose they have every right to ask but in many cases we have every right to decline to answer.
Broadly their powers to stop and search stem from Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and lately Terrorism Act 2000 and the Anti-Terrorism Crime and Security Act 2001. I think we can rule out the last two, and since they asked nicely they seemed to have ruled out PACE themselves, which means they probably had no grounds at all.
I am not for a moment suggesting not co-operating with or helping the police on a routine basis but that should be recognized as voluntary a act by a free public.
| lescargot |
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| 14/05/2008 13:12 |
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Quote:
...They only have to have reasonable suspicion...
So they can't just jump on your boat for no reason and it is also reasonable for you to ask them why.
Quote:
...and as far as I am concerned they can board as many, and whoever's boats, including mine, as often as they wish...
Forunately you can only give permission for them to board your boat, not mine. So if they want to come on my boat they will still have to ask me and tell me why they want to, before I give them permission.
| Spuddy |
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| 14/05/2008 13:13 |
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"Perishing know it alls ". Pot and kettle, I think.
| ForeverFreedom38 |
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| 14/05/2008 13:19 |
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Why not say something like "Of course you can - see you at our mooring this evening"?
| DavenHelen |
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| 14/05/2008 13:22 |
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They might have had more right if accompanied by a Customs Officer. (All those stowaways)
| KenMcCulloch |
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| 14/05/2008 13:22 |
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Well they probably wanted to practice boarding 'suspect' vessels?
I was once boarded by SBS types with loaded guns, that was in the North Channel in the early 90s. They had a look for guns and explosives but couldn't find them so left us to our drift towards Scotland.
| Tosca |
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| 14/05/2008 13:22 |
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How about this. Just had a knock on the door of my business. Can I see the owner or manager, it Tolworth Police. I go down, "Hello I am from Tolworth Police" hand is proffered to shake. "We are just conducting a diversity survey, can you tell me how many people are employed here and their ethnicity!
I could have made a comment about stabbings in London and perhaps time better spent...
Oh well, I guess I now know where my taxes are going.
| DavenHelen |
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| 14/05/2008 13:28 |
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Quote:
I wonder in fact, if a lot of the "plod knockers" on these forums, just resent the idea that there is somebody that has authority over them?
Missed that bit....IFAIK, the police don't have any general authority over me, SWMBO maybe but not the police.
| David_Jersey |
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| 14/05/2008 13:36 |
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Quote:
Anyway, one then asked if all three children were ours. Two of them were, the other was a friend of my 9 year old daughter... 'do you have a letter from her parents to confirm that it is okay for her to be with you out here?' they asked. Er no! Well you should really, especially on a boat... but she looks happy enough so I'm sure its fine.........
...................and WTF is all this about letters from parents???
I would guess a lot gets lost in the telling, and I'm sure this was put very nicely......but it also makes me feel a bit uneasy. Somethings may be a good idea (or not), but as far as I am concerned, if it ain't the law then for the Police it is simply none of their bizness.
My "risk assessment"
for the 3rd child would be that if I felt a letter of permission was needed from the Parents, it would mean that (letter or not) I would not take the child.
| cliff |
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| 14/05/2008 13:40 |
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Quote:Most definitely YES!
Well I'll have the covers up and the heating on. Can you do that on a yacht?
---------------------
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity
| Tranona |
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| 14/05/2008 14:11 |
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Wow! Big brother here. What makes you think that they have "authority" over you? Where does the authority to board a yacht come from if there is no suspicion that a law has been broken? The fact that they asked tells the story. They can only board with your permission - they have no right. And they have no right to ask about a "letter of permission" as there is no legal requirement to have one.
The police are our "servants" and generally perform their role in an exemplary manner. Unwarranted interference in our own private activities is not necessary or acceptable.
| Chrusty1 |
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| 14/05/2008 14:14 |
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Quote:
Wow! Big brother here. What makes you think that they have "authority" over you? Where does the authority to board a yacht come from if there is no suspicion that a law has been broken? The fact that they asked tells the story. They can only board with your permission - they have no right. And they have no right to ask about a "letter of permission" as there is no legal requirement to have one.
The police are our "servants" and generally perform their role in an exemplary manner. Unwarranted interference in our own private activities is not necessary or acceptable.
No-one is a servant these days sonny....now go talk to the hand as they are fond of saying these days.
| DAKA |
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| 14/05/2008 14:31 |
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I'm with crusty on this one.
Plod is welcome on my boat anytime ( unless its a rocking ).
Indeed I have invited plod on my boat previously on numerous occasions, once after a Motor Cycle cop had just dealt with a young child on a tricycle being crushed under a 4X4.
Lets go a stage further and make it compulsory to give finger prints and a DNA sample before dole/sick pay / passport/ driving license and pension can be collected.
In fact the only thing you should be able to get off the state without a DNA sample is prison !
| Marsupial |
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| 14/05/2008 14:46 |
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Well there you go some luv em some hate em - we tend to invite them on board before they ask and offer them hospitality that way they will know me my crew and my boat and then they should have a better idea if someone is on board my boat that maybe shouldnt be there. As they are around the marina more than I am I take comfort from this. At sea I suggect they are just ticking boxes and practising get on and off boats.
The dark side is that unless you "embrace" their intrusion you could be regarded as "suspicious" by them - and that is simply human nature - amplified by a uniform and lots of experience in the seedier side of life.
| savageseadog |
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| 14/05/2008 14:53 |
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Some on here seem to think that this is acceptable on the basis that it's stopping drugs/crime/immigration/terrorism etc. The fact is that we've gone around minding our own business for as many years as I've been around without all this intrusion and these problems have been with us as well. Terrorism isn't new, the last phase of it was the IRA, drugs, crime and all the rest of it too. I'm afraid people are being brainwashed into thinking that this is in any way new or necessary. The government's induced hysteria is working.
| AvastMark |
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| 14/05/2008 15:17 |
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well someone must be otherwise we wouldn't have civil servants.
| Tranona |
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| 14/05/2008 15:32 |
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I used the word in the literal and formal sense, which is why I put it in inverted commas. It is not the same as the everyday meaning which you seem to take to be subservient. It is a very different status as they are servants of the Crown. Their authority over you and me as citizens derives from the law as others have pointed out.
None of this means we should not be polite and welcoming, but we can decline if we wish.
And, by the way do not call people "sonny" as you can only do that if you are their father.
| cardinal_mark |
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| 14/05/2008 15:44 |
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Quote:
And, by the way do not call people "sonny" as you can only do that if you are their father.
Only if you have a letter to prove it!
Mark
| bumblefish |
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| 14/05/2008 15:46 |
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Last February my son broke his arm while we were skiing, second time!, so I was in a local clinic with him while 4 friends bought my 9 year old daughter back. They had to book a flight for her as we had not been traveling with them. When they got to the airport there was one couple with the same surname and another who had different surnames on their passports and my daughter with the 4th surname. No letter from me and no questions asked! Could this have been influenced by the fact that they were flying BA and 2 of them were BA captains?
| highandry |
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| 14/05/2008 15:58 |
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Just a thought, about a letter from Mum....
A kid on board as a guest gets a whack from the boom...
A lad got kicked in the head on a bouncy castle..
Beware, times have changed, watch your backs, however well meant your invitations to 'come aboard' to other people's kids.
If I'd known she was going out in that boat, I would never have let her go.....
Get yer wallet out after the hearing..or perhaps get a letter from Mum?
Sad times to even have to think like that I agree, but..?
| peterb |
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| 14/05/2008 16:00 |
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Quote:
well someone must be otherwise we wouldn't have civil servants.
You don't. The Crown has five services: the three armed services, the diplomatic service and the civil service. Civil servants are people who work in the civil service of the crown, and the term distinguishes them from those in the other four services.
| jaws |
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| 14/05/2008 16:16 |
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If you ever go through London on your boat you have a 90% chance of being boarded by the boys in blue. They always wait, of course, until you are in the Pool of London so that they get maximum visibility to show the public that their tax is being put to good use and that they are doing something to combat terrorism. A lot of terrorists come from Teddington apparently!
| jaws |
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| 14/05/2008 16:28 |
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Quote:
Lets go a stage further and make it compulsory to give finger prints and a DNA sample before dole/sick pay / passport/ driving license and pension can be collected.
..and of course that data will never fall into the wrong hands as we can trust the government to keep it safe on CD.
Why people are so trusting of the government beggars belief. Anything held on a computer connected to a network can be got at with enough knowledge. It's already been shown that the data held on biometric Passports etc can be changed with off the shelf kit.
| NDG |
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| 14/05/2008 16:28 |
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Cant understand why some people get so worked up about this kind of thing. As long as its reasonable and polite and there's no demand for "papers" , and its doesnt happen all the time, then they're all right by me.
By the way, if it was the CG Helicopter wanting to practice boarding, rather than a police RIB, I bet no one would be indignantly saying "they have no right" etc etc,. Life's all a bit of give and take, and if it helps to cut down on boat crime and dangerous speeding in MoBos in confined waters then its a good thing.
| jaws |
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| 14/05/2008 16:35 |
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The point is it does happen all the time. They don't stop cars going through London and they don't randomly come to your home and do a spot check. There has to be some justification in my mind.
I value my freedom and that includes not being stopped at the drop of a hat.
There is a also reason why people have signs saying deck shoes only on their boat and this doesn't cover black steel toe capped jack boots.
| NDG |
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| 14/05/2008 16:45 |
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Does it happen all the time...? Hasn't ever happened to me in 8 years or so, although customs did come aboard once. Maybe I am the exception rather than the rule.
If it happened frequently then I agree that would be excessive, but if I am even half way to being a typical example then what is the problem? If your boat or your outboard/tender/liferaft was nicked I bet you would want them around.
| Shorn100 |
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| 14/05/2008 16:56 |
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What's the point of asking for a letter from the parents. Surely, any self respecting paedophile (self-respecting is an oxymoron in this case!) would simply have written their own - how would the police know if it's real or fake.
It doesn't seem a very intensive check - I guess that if they were concerned they wold have made further enquiries such asking for a telephone number to phone the parents.
Not good policing on that point I would suggest. One wonders if they were being serious!
Shorn
| Iota |
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| 14/05/2008 16:59 |
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Never happended to us either in the last 22 years but nice to know they are out there. I don't see what the fuss is about, seems a tad silly to judge everything by civil liberties. The officers in question might have had a rough description of a stolen boat or anything but so what it all seemed pretty amicable.
Iota
| capnsensible |
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| 14/05/2008 17:10 |
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Having been boarded by Brits, French, Spanish and Moroccans, I can reveal that the ones without guns but taking the same risks generally give me cause for admiration rather than denigration.
Rule Brittania!
Oh, before anyone starts, this not NF propaganda, just a sailors observation.
| Sailfree |
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| 14/05/2008 17:11 |
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Just to clarify. With my wife I have taken my grandson skiing most years. He has a different surname and we have been asked before do we have a letter of authority from his parents. Not in a difficult way just trying to ensure the child was OK etc. For this reason I always get a letter from my daughter.
This year as he was 16 I almost did not bother. I also went alone with him this year - great bonding and having some adult conversations etc - think it may be the last year we go together as next year he may want to go with friends etc.
Again I was asked at customs the relationship and did I have authority. What surprised me a little was that they then asked him independantly to confirm our relationship. I was surprised as they had his passport showing that he was 16 but as another pointed out I could have forged any letter of authority.
Overall I am happy to be questioned and happy that the authorities attitude is the protection of children but I recommend others get that letter if only so that you have the authority to authorise any medical treatment in the event of illness or injury.
| QuestGirl |
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| 14/05/2008 17:25 |
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I don't think I would have had a problem with them boarding but I definitely would have asked why first, and then decided. I wouldn't have just said ok. Same with customs or anyone else 'official' wanting to board - if they have a reason, even if it's just 'practising boarding', they have to give it and the very fact that they asked permission tells you that you could have refused. You could also have reserved the right to refuse to answer questions and to ask them to leave at any point - I would have made that clear and got their agreement before anyone came on board.
| Tranona |
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| 14/05/2008 17:27 |
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The questioning at borders and by airlines is, I suggest a very different issue from getting a letter of permission to drift around Chichester harbour on a warm summers afternoon. Our granddaughter will soon be of an age when we will be taking her abroad without her parents and will certainly get a letter from our daughter for the reasons mentioned such as getting medical treatment as well as showing we are not kidnapping her. But taking her out on the boat in Poole harbour - why?
| Sailfree |
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| 14/05/2008 17:30 |
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I agree with you except a letter would also give you authority to permit medical treatment.
Accidents and illnesses don't just happen abroad.
We all hope common sense would prevail but in this lets sue someone society only immediate life saving treatment may be given by some.
| susyrosyworzy |
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| 14/05/2008 17:39 |
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Quote:
If you ever go through London on your boat you have a 90% chance of being boarded by the boys in blue. They always wait, of course, until you are in the Pool of London so that they get maximum visibility to show the public that their tax is being put to good use and that they are doing something to combat terrorism. A lot of terrorists come from Teddington apparently!
One of my sons-in-law is a river policeman with the Met - he says they try to question everyone coming into the Thames - but not necessarily boarding them - prevention tactics. He's a really decent chap, sometimes rather full of moral rectitude offset by a quirky sense of humour. On the way to drop him and my daughter and kids off at the airport the other day, we were stopped routinely by police at the entrance to the drop off point. It was interesting to see how he (driver) behaved - he didn't flash his warrant card or say what his connection was. The policeman was, I thought, rather officious in that polite way they have (which immediately irritates me, even though I try to hide it). He was polite back, and nodding dogged to all the chap said. It was afterwards it was interesting - he made the same sort of remarks us grockles make, slightly more veiled, perhaps, but there all the same....
S x
| PilotWolf |
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| 14/05/2008 17:58 |
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Everyone who is saying about 'asking to board' being a give away that they don't have the powers to - have you thought that maybe they are just being polite?
In my previous occupation we DID have the power to board the vessel simply by the authority of our Warrant whether you agreed or liked it or not, (not saying the police have the same authority as I don't know), but we always asked first out of politeness and respect to the skipper/owner. Boarding with consent makes it far more 'pleasurable' for both parties and saves on paperwork for the boarders
With regards to the letter and children I think that a letter that allows you to act in loco parentis (?sp) with regards to any emergency treatment, etc. would be a good idea - especially if the parents maybe difficult to contact quickly.
W.
| NealB |
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| 14/05/2008 18:21 |
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I've been boarded twice on the Thames in the last year: once as we approached St Kats from seaward, then, a couple of weeks ago, as we came round the bend by the O2 (see, it's not discrimination against those intrepid voyagers from Teddington).
Both times they were very friendly (as were we), and stayed for about half an hour for cup of tea and a yarn. They didn't take up our invitation to go below and poke around.
Both times we were issued with a 'stop and search' ticket.
Was this an infringement of our civil liberties? Well, maybe, but, if so, only a very minor one.
Does it help us sleep soundly in our beds, secure in the knowledge that national security is so obviously at the top of their agenda? Err...you're joking, right?
Does it help with promoting an image of a caring, community police force? Not sure on this one....I suspect Telegraph and Mail readers will say 'yes', whereas Guardianistas will be outraged.
My own view? Well, actually, they were nice enough chaps, and it did add a little interest to our trip (including, a relatively high-speed, coming alongside exercise).
| Beadle |
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| 14/05/2008 18:36 |
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No
In those circumstances a letter from parents saying they agreed to her going on your boat would not absolve you of a duty of care.
If she fell overboard or got crowned by the boom you would still have the same liability.
| jordanbasset |
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| 14/05/2008 18:53 |
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sorry wrong thread
| Tosca |
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| 14/05/2008 19:01 |
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Re: Boarded by plod
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For all those that don't mind,how would you feel if you had a knock on your front door, asked a details and a look round, completely differently I suspect. Most would ask to see a search warrant.
I don't see why we are seen as such high risk and need to be stopped and searched upon enter entering London. Cars are not stopped routinely so why should we be.
| Searush |
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| 14/05/2008 19:46 |
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Quote:Quote:It is burocracy and 'elf and safety gone mad.
'do you have a letter from her parents to confirm that it is okay for her to be with you out here?' they asked. Er no! Well you should really, especially on a boat... but she looks happy enough so I'm sure its fine...
I help run a Sea Scout group and the paperwork is horrendous. We have to get permission slips for everything. I am qualified as a YM and according to Scouts rules can only take 1 keel boat up to 500meters from the shorein summer and have to stay in quiet estuaries in winter!
I'm an ex-Sea Scout (from the mid-60's) and an avid reader of Uffa Fox, who took a party of scouts to Paris from Poole in an open sailing whaler. They slept under the thwarts taking it in turns to bale/ steer/ row and sail. The only shelter was to pull a spare sail over you. There was no engine or buoancy, only kapok life jackets and no modern oilies or multi-layer thermals. But they all survived and sailed/ rowed up the Seine to moor in the heart of Paris as planned in time for the exhibition they were attending. Sadly, our risk averse culture would throw up their collective arms in horror at such a wonderful adventure today. We have lost a lot and our children are losing more.
| davidfox |
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| 14/05/2008 19:49 |
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Sorry they werent 'Plods' they were 'Tossers'
| NealB |
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| 14/05/2008 19:58 |
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I'm a great fan of Uffa, too, (both his designs and his writing). If I recall correctly, wasn't he breaking the rules when he took the Scouts off on the whaler? There were concerns even then.
| NealB |
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| 14/05/2008 20:08 |
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Actually, I really wouldn't worry too much if Mr or Mrs Plod wanted to come and have a chat in my house. Why should I, as long as they behave themselves? I've a clear conscience, I have nothing to hide in my house, what do I need to worry about?
I agree I would get pretty hacked off it it became a regular feature of life, but as a very rare occurence (errr...it's never happened in any of my 52 years so far), it wouldn't bother me too much.
I am, however, aware of the need to be vigilant about the 'thin end of the wedge' with respect to our liberties.
| bobbobbin |
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| 14/05/2008 20:43 |
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The chances of a terrorist threat being averted by stop and search are vanishingly small, about the same as money laundering being stopped by the fiasco of "Banking Requirements for new accounts"
Toscas last post sums up how I feel. I will cooperate but resent the continual errosion of civil liberty.
As always the effect of such actions is to impose a burden on the law abiding and completely by pass the bas*ards that need to be stopped.
| christopher_columbus |
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| 14/05/2008 20:49 |
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Quote:
Lets go a stage further and make it compulsory to give finger prints and a DNA sample before dole/sick pay / passport/ driving license and pension can be collected.
All for it. In fact lets get everyone tagged at birth too, if we know where everyone is, we can solve all crime. After all, if you have nothing to hide.......
Sorry, but its just another story about the police state we have created. I was shocked to hear about this boarding incident. For one thing it seems a complete waste of tax payers money. There is real crime going on out there unchecked and someone has taken a decision to send the police on wild goose chases like this! Madness. They should be charged with wasting police time!!
| shmoo |
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| 14/05/2008 20:51 |
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If this had actually happened to us when our kids were little we would have been in real trouble. There would have been cries of
"Arrest them: they are kidnapping us!"
"and they are cruel and treat us like slaves. Help!"
"They make us eat vegetables!"
"But you are a vegetarian..."
"Oh yes. They make us eat meat!"
Something like this happened many years ago when we were stopped at a roadblock in the miners strike with the spogs in the back. Puzzled old Bill couldn't get rid of us quickly enough.
| oldgit |
| (regular) |
| 14/05/2008 20:53 |
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Have only ever been boarded around Greenwich and the Barrier on any of our trips.
| freewind |
| (regular) |
| 14/05/2008 21:20 |
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Shmoo,
While I have no reason to doubt your statement it should be made clear that it does not apply to other nations. Try that in Spain for example and your boat will join the others in the corner of some marina yard with bullet holes down its sides.
I'm with Grumpy ...sorry.... Crusty... one this one
| wotayottie |
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| 14/05/2008 21:41 |
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Re: Boarded by plod
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Quote:
I wonder in fact, if a lot of the "plod knockers" on these forums, just resent the idea that there is somebody that has authority over them? It does seem to be a bit of a favourite passtime on here.
Got it in one Crusty! We were brought up to believe that Dibble was there to serve the public, and to help. Want to know the time, ask a policeman etc.
Now we find that their view of their job is that they are appointed to control us. Thats the problems with power - it corrupts and is mis used. Had the boat owner objected to boarding, he could no doubt have been arrested under the terrorism acts, in the same way they have been abused elsewhere.
What possible justification could there have been for stopping someone going about their lawful business and with (presumably) no evidence of unlawful activity?
| lescargot |
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| 14/05/2008 21:43 |
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Quote:
...With regards to the letter and children I think that a letter that allows you to act in loco parentis (?sp) with regards to any emergency treatment, etc. would be a good idea - especially if the parents maybe difficult to contact quickly.
W.
The more I think about the letter the more I think it is absolute bollox - how do you "validate" the letter? Is there a national database of some sort with parents signatures and photos of the child it applies to? - is there hell. Is there a way of telling that a child abductor didn't type it up and sign it himself with the parents name, or anyones name come to that? - absolutely not.
Any such letter would be totally worthless in proving you have authority to have that child with you and any official accepting it as such should look for another job with less responsibilty!
| David_Jersey |
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| 14/05/2008 22:21 |
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Quote:
The chances of a terrorist threat being averted by stop and search are vanishingly small, about the same as money laundering being stopped by the fiasco of "Banking Requirements for new accounts"
Oh you skeptic you
| MarkJohnson12345 |
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| 14/05/2008 22:50 |
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Here here.
If this sort of behavoir becomes the norm, then the terrorists have won without a shot being fired.
Usually the anti terrorist police work on tip off's etc, so its odd that they have the time to spot check.
They do derserve respect, but they will loose it if they treat innocents badly, and use their powers bluntly.
Mj
| AvastMark |
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| 14/05/2008 22:59 |
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Just a few thoughts...
I'm not convinced that a letter would grant authority to permit emergency treatment. Unless someone is a parent or a legal guardian i think it would unlikely for them to be consulted as to treatment. The doctors will probably make their own decisions and proceed, and only if treatment can't wait for the parents to be consulted.
A parent may be asked to make a decision as to whether a particular procedure with known side affects is carried out. Would you really want to make that decision in their absence? Did the parents have it in mind when they wrote the letter?Had they thought through the full consequences of what they were asking friend to do?
Bear in mind that the parent is making decisions on behalf of the child because at a young age they are deemed not to have capacity and understanding to make decisions themselves. If the child can demonstrate capacity to consent then they may well be involved in the decision making (parent absent or not).
As a friend of the family and child, doctors may ask for help contacting the parents, or for you to sit with the child etc. but that is probably about it.
I think it's unlikely that doctors would look to a friend or even close relative to express the parents wishes, even if there is a letter. Once admitted it is they who are responsible for treatment and healthcare of the child and only a parent or legal guardian has legal rights and powers in the decision making process. I think it's unlikely a letter will confer those to someone else.
| RGH |
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| 15/05/2008 08:42 |
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Within the child protection policy (look at the one your sailing club has on it`s notice board ,if you have cadets) it states that all children that do not have parents present when they are taking part in club activities,should have a signed declaration from the parents giving permission and naming another person to look after their child for them.(not exact words but near) so the police have permission to ask for your note from the parents.
Must be a good thing these days when crime seems rife and insurance is costly.
| DavenHelen |
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| 15/05/2008 09:03 |
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Quote:
Both times we were issued with a 'stop and search' ticket.
It would be interesting to know what the reason given was (should be on the ticket according to the PACE rules)?
| jordanbasset |
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| 15/05/2008 09:04 |
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Re your post
"Last weekend we were drifting aimlessly around Chichester bay - making a mighty 2 kts IIRC! - when all of a sudden 'the black rib' approachd and asked if it was okay to come aboard. Sure I said, no problem. They were perfectly polite and simply took a few details, checked that it was my boat and that I didn't have any terrorists down below, which of course I didn't; although I'm not sure what they made of the overly friendly Airedale roused from her slumber!
Anyway, one then asked if all three children were ours. Two of them were, the other was a friend of my 9 year old daughter... 'do you have a letter from her parents to confirm that it is okay for her to be with you out here?' they asked. Er no! Well you should really, especially on a boat... but she looks happy enough so I'm sure its fine..."
I know you have not said this but I think some of the reactions of others that this appears the beginning of the end for our civil rights and the introduction of a police state is a little pessimistic.
We do not know the reason for them coming aborad, could be a whole number. Perhaps one of them was new to the unit and needed training. Perhaps they had info and wanted to check something out. Perhaps they were bored . Perhaps they wanted to reassure the boating community of a visible police presense. The thing is we do not know. All we do know is that they were polite and respectful. The fact they requested permission does not mean they did not have a power to search, could be that they did not want to exercise it if they could get cooperation - far better in my opinion. Wonder if they had not asked, used a power and searched the boat. Would people be then saying why didn't they just ask first? I am not saying they did have a power to search in these circmstance, just that again we do not know.
Having had an experience of a boat being searched in another countryI wish it had these two searching.
Again this is not aimed at you as I did find your post very measured and actually took it as a good news story -
| DavenHelen |
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| 15/05/2008 09:10 |
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I think a lot of responses are more to Chrusty's second post about the polices rights.
| Fireball |
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| 15/05/2008 09:34 |
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Quite simply ...
a letter from the parents - means nothing, however, by asking the question they can guage the reactions of the adults and children onboard - this could indicate if something was wrong ..
if you (as a parent) allow your child to go with a friend it is your responsibility to ensure your child is not at undue risk - FFS would you let your child go away with a complete stranger ??
All this talk of court cases appears to be the way the UK is going - there is less trust and understanding in case of accidents - should've/could've/would've doesn't resolve anything .... if you're that far into blame culture then you should personally check out what activities your child will be doing ... (out comes the bubblewrap) ....
| PilotWolf |
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| 15/05/2008 10:09 |
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So by the same token does that mean that all the letters of authority from parents to schools, ATC/CCF units, Scouts, etc are also not valid?
When we were at school all we did was take home the letter with the tear off bit for our parents to sign which we took back! In the ATC the cadets parents had to sign in there blue book (the name of which I cant remember) against which activities they were allowed to take part in or indeed weren't.
Maybe its different for organised groups?
W.
| lescargot |
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| 15/05/2008 10:18 |
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That's a slightly different situation to that of a private individual. I am a cadet instructor and that letter is of use only to me, it gives me information and authority and I know it is valid - it is given directly to me by a parent and is an agreement between me and them. It has no value if I show it to anyone else as they have no proof of it's authenticity - again, who is to say I didn't fill it in and sign it myself.
| ForeverFreedom38 |
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| 15/05/2008 10:31 |
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I get where you are coming from but why aren't they practising their skills on Service owned property. They have 17 Port and Maritime Regiment at Hythe and also all the Service yachts at the Joint Service Sail Training Centre at Gosport. I have just retired from the MOD in Cyprus and our SAR crews there regularly ask to drop the winchman on passing ships or private motor vessels, but that is a bit different from being boarded by Police/Customs. Perhaps the perceived problem stems from the fact that a proportion of the previously wilco population now no longer trust the Police in the way they did before
| GazzaUK |
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| 15/05/2008 13:40 |
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Quote:
Well if "white middle-ish class families" make a habit of refering to them a "Plod".....it's a wonder that you are not boarded on a more regular basis!
Yes...you shouldve said 'the pigs'!
| GazzaUK |
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| 15/05/2008 13:46 |
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Quote:Quote:
Wow! Big brother here. What makes you think that they have "authority" over you? Where does the authority to board a yacht come from if there is no suspicion that a law has been broken? The fact that they asked tells the story. They can only board with your permission - they have no right. And they have no right to ask about a "letter of permission" as there is no legal requirement to have one.
The police are our "servants" and generally perform their role in an exemplary manner. Unwarranted interference in our own private activities is not necessary or acceptable.
No-one is a servant these days sonny....now go talk to the hand as they are fond of saying these days.
The police are our servants...end of...sonny
| GazzaUK |
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| 15/05/2008 13:51 |
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Quote:
I wonder in fact, if a lot of the "plod knockers" on these forums, just resent the idea that there is somebody that has authority over them? It does seem to be a bit of a favourite passtime on here.
The police have no 'authority' over me whatsoever.....they have the power to arrest me if i commit a crime. That's all.
| jenku |
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| 15/05/2008 14:45 |
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Quote:
The police have no 'authority' over me whatsoever.....they have the power to arrest me if i commit a crime. That's all.
Surely they have the right to arrest you if they are suspecting that you have committed a crime, which is something completely different.
Otherwise we would not need any courts.
| PilotWolf |
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| 15/05/2008 15:44 |
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Or to prevent you commiting one too I believe...
W.
| dk |
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| 15/05/2008 16:03 |
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What if one of the plods got seriously injured by the boom when boarding - say due to their weight on the weather side making the boat gybe around - should you perhaps have asked them to sign a risk disclaimer before thay boarded?
And if you've got nice clean teak decks and they're wearing black-soled boots with steel heels?
| Giblets |
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| 15/05/2008 19:45 |
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It would be interesting to know if the "boarders" were civilian police from either Hampshire or Sussex or if they were MOD police. Also an exact location of the boarding would be useful as you may have been inside the Dockyard Port of Porstmouth which comes under the juristriction of QHM Portsmouth whose powers are slightly different to the civilian authorities.
| Sybarite |
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| 15/05/2008 21:17 |
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I haven't read all the posts (this forum is so slow...) but it may be that they are looking for illegal immigrants. It is quite lucrative (I understand) to ferry them over.
John
| Robih |
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| 16/05/2008 09:47 |
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Ref: Is that your child on board?
Have a read of this extract from the BBC's website:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/84/a4055384.shtml
(If you are short on time just read the third para)
Maybe it was a golden (perhaps naieve?) age for an adults realtionship with a child but it is a real contrast to how we are all so petrified of stepping out of place these days. I can't help but feel that it was much healthier sixty years ago than it is now - the excerpt talks about the farmer waking the girl early in the morning and going mushroom hunting. I'd be scared witless of suggesting something like that these days. Shame?
rob