| doris |
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| 14/05/2008 16:45 |
Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Do any forumites get guests to sign disclaimer letters before they go out sailing. Reading the post about ‘plods boarding’ demonstrates an extraordinary diversity of views about modern society, from Crusty in a parallel universe to some post modern social revivalists. Fortunately most peeps are all normal middle of the road expecting the same respect from authority are is expected of them.
However the letter from parents raises a broader point. When taking part in any commercial ‘hazardous activity’ a bounce waiver would be signed. Do any owners on this BB get guests to sign some form of disclaimer, if so what? Yes I know this would not get round gross negligence but would be very helpful in the case of a genuine accident and a grieving spouse/parent etc.
| Moonshiners |
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| 14/05/2008 16:54 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Hey you could keep one by your front door also, like a visitors book! and your car and... and...
and if it really has come to this i'm leaving (the country).
| provenjohn |
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| 14/05/2008 16:58 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Quote:
Hey you could keep one by your front door also, like a visitors book! and your car and... and...
and if it really has come to this i'm leaving (the country).
I'm coming with you !
| Debutante21Sixpence |
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| 14/05/2008 17:01 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Never been asked to sign any form of disclaimer when boarding other boats
Wouldn't even contemplate having one on my boat
As with the 'Plod' thread, and the 'Liferaft' thread, and just about any other thread where certain people jump in, I know what I know and what I don't know, I know who to ask for help from and certain people just aren't worth listening to.
Far too much incorrect information spouted as fact just lately.
| Iota |
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| 14/05/2008 17:02 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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I think they would feel insulted if we did ask them to sign a disclaimer.
Iota
| David_Jersey |
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| 14/05/2008 17:04 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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I have a note from my Mum, is that OK?
| sailing86 |
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| 14/05/2008 17:10 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Depends wither your notes a forgery!!!
| LakeSailor |
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| 14/05/2008 17:13 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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I speak as a complete layman in legal matter, but am sure I have seen mention of the invalidity of disclaimers.
Under EU law you cannot derogate your responsibilities by having them signed away.
Anyway that's another probably bollox point quoted as fact. (see my signature)
| Morgana |
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| 14/05/2008 17:14 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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The day I have to do that is the day I sign up for the revolution!
Sixpence is due out sailing with me shortly... I might well ask him to sign one just to see his face....
| Debutante21Sixpence |
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| 14/05/2008 17:15 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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I'll get one from my mummy by the time we sail
don't worry if the signature says 'Mummy'
| graham |
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| 14/05/2008 17:18 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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I have been told by someone in the legal proffesion that disclaimers arent worth the paper they are written on.
You have a duty of care to anyone on your boat that you cant wriggle out of .
All this hysteria over being sued by someone on your boat,how often does it happen in the real world? Provided you have taken reasonable care is there any real need to fret?
| Teredo |
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| 14/05/2008 17:22 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Just remember, we are leisure sailors and amateurs. We will not be judged in law by the standard of professional organisations. That does not excuse our reckless or negligent actions though.
But if say a neighbours child is keen on coming along we'd better make bloody sure they have parental consent.
| capnsensible |
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| 14/05/2008 17:22 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Has to happen with charter companies, sea schools etc where commercial gain is the game. Probably because some company somewhere has been stiffed by some claimants insurance company lawyers. Natch.
One wonders how long it will be until your best mate 'broken leg Dave' when making his insurance claim after a trip on your boat casts loose by default his dogs of law??
Progress, I suppose.
| QuestGirl |
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| 14/05/2008 17:37 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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No we don't. The only thing I've ever signed like that was an acceptance that the skipper of a yacht I was crewing on had authority to make safety decisions on my behalf but that was more focused around changing the itinerary of the trip at short notice than about telling me I couldn't sue if I got hit by the boom.
We had a rather heated 'discussion' about such letters at an AGM recently where a few people wanted organisers of sailing events to get attendees to sign disclaimers to remove liability from the organiser. Our assumption, and that of most of the people there, seemed to be that people attending rallies on their own boats were responsible for their own vessel and crew. It wouldn't have occurred to us as organisers to tell people to check the weather forecast / tidal streams / tidal heights etc etc, they should be able to do all that by themselves and it certainly wasn't our responsibility to check that they had done it.
| Login_name |
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| 14/05/2008 17:44 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Quote:
Do any forumites get guests to sign disclaimer letters before they go out sailing.
No, I don't.
I don't get friends to sign a disclaimer when they get in my car either.
| jordanbasset |
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| 14/05/2008 20:01 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Agree you cannot absolve yourself of a duty of care by getting people to sign to that effect, it would be meaningless in a court of law. You can mitigate your liability by giving a well informed safety briefing and sailing the boat within the rules of the road and general good seamanship. If some one does something contrary to your briefing then they would be held atleast partly if not fully culpable. You only need to take measures that are reasonable in the circumstances to protect people from harm.
But stuff happens and if it ends up in a court they will make the final decision as to who was responsible
| davidfox |
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| 14/05/2008 20:06 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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We have been asked by the local school, to offer a days sailing for 4 in return for a donation to there funds, a sort of auction of promises, how do we stand on that? we are receiving no reward or even expenses as far as i am aware, any ideas?
| freewind |
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| 14/05/2008 20:59 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Check with your insurers, I had a similar thing with aviation and it was ok as long as they were informed prior to the flight.
| wotayottie |
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| 14/05/2008 21:28 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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would not consider taking children on board. occasional adult visitors - no disclaimer but then I only have sailors on board.
| jhr |
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| 15/05/2008 10:29 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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I agree, inform your insurers. They should be happy so long as it's not for hire or reward, but will not be happy bunnies if you don't tell them and there's subsequently a claim. Might be worth asking the school (or PTA?) if it's covered by their insurers. They have to have Public Liability Insurance, and this is a school related event, after all.
So long as you exercise reasonable care you should not have any liability - in exactly the same way as for anybody else you take on the boat.
If it's a promises auction, it'll probably be a family, rather than just kids, so no need for you to be in loco parentis but if the party includes kids you should make it clear - maybe when you do your safety briefing - that you regard the parents as being responsible for the kids and that they will obey your instructions at all times, in the interests of everyone's safety.
You have to strike a happy medium on this; it's meant to be a fun day out (or else it ain't gonna be much of a prize...) and you don't want to spoil the atmosphere by reading out long lists of rules and producing mounds of paperwork.
If the party is all kids, I agree with what's already been said - don't go there!
| Shorn100 |
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| 15/05/2008 11:19 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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I've never asked anyone to sign a disclaimer for coming on to my boat. However, I always ask if anybody has any medical problems that might be relevant to coming out on a boat - ie asthmatic, diabetic, angina or other heat problems, epilectic etc etc?
And of course, it's good to know who can't swim!
A friend of mine was on a course when one of the students went into a diabetic coma.
I'm now wondering if I should get it in writing that I've asked them these questions?
Shorn
| Shorn100 |
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| 15/05/2008 11:35 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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I'm no legal expert but I would suggest that as organisers of any event you will need to have shown that you have exercised a reasonable duty of care.
In which case I would suggest that by simply ignoring to ask if the participants boats are suitable and properly prepared with the correct equipment on, or requiring participants to carry certain equipment that a clever injury lawyer may hold you partly if not wholly reponsible.
Race organisers usually specify the equipment that needs to be carried - ie Cat 5 or Cat 4 for most regular club events/regatta weeks. Some now are checking that the entrants have the equipment aboard.
Of course, 'big' boat events are scrutineered - not just for safety but to ensure nobody's cheating.
I've done a bit of scrutineering and in my experience the majority don't meet the asked-for standard.
I would guess therefore at events where no scrutineering takes place that the organisers excuse that it was a requirement for entry but they hadn't made any efforts to undertake even spot checks, would not 'hold water' if any case ever went to court.
Can any legal eagles suggest where we stand stand on this?
Shorn
| doris |
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| 15/05/2008 12:26 |
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Scrutineering
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Scrutineering.
I think that the R Western have stopped doing this as have the R Torbay for the Triangle because of the potential for legal claims. If they sign a boat off then they expose themselves legally. For this year's Triangle I am told that we will not be scrutineered, we just have to sign up that we are Cat 2 compliant. In my experience over the last 12 years of short handing and being scrutineered, Triangles, Azabs, Fastnets etc there are very few boats that do not comply.
| Captainslarty |
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| 15/05/2008 12:35 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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IF the person is so dumb as to need a disclaimer cos they dont realise that water can drown you, incompetence can also drown you or kill you in many other interesting ways.. then they basically shouldnt be ANYWHERE near a boat..
When disneyland gets you to sign before you ride the coaster, then worry.. even then.. thats the yanks for ya.. and even THEY haven't got to that get..
Thank god for opt out living (Liveaboard with no ties to the UK at all).. chose a country where you feel the nanny state is at least in your favour, not theirs.. or the money men.. (ie accountants, lawyers, marketting exexcutives (Whatever that means), BMW owners, Chelsea tractor owners, landlords and paranoid lounge posters with an overdraft lol ) these are the problem.. they need to pay for their next fix so try to make YOU pay THEM for doing it...
Me gads.. the world is going mad.. mad I tell ya...
Perhaps it needs a makeover or facelift.. or, just move away from it.
ps, attached is a disclaimer...
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The party of the fifth instance indicates that the party of the first instance is secretly sniffing contact adhesive from the undershelf of Asda wrapped in a large brown paper eco friendly bag....
Nurse ? .. me steady pills..
| bobgosling |
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| 15/05/2008 14:11 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Quote:
I speak as a complete layman in legal matter, but am sure I have seen mention of the invalidity of disclaimers.
Under EU law you cannot derogate your responsibilities by having them signed away.
Actually it is a basic tenet of English law that you cannot sign away your rights.
The only realy valid way to mitigate any claim would be to get your passengers to sign a declaration that they had been given a safety briefing and were aware of the risks involved in sailing. You would still be liable for damages if you were negligent though.
| QuestGirl |
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| 15/05/2008 14:46 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Quote:
I'm no legal expert but I would suggest that as organisers of any event you will need to have shown that you have exercised a reasonable duty of care.
That's nuts! Surely it should depend on the type of event organised? If I organise a rendezvous point, possibly reserve marina space and arrange a restaurant for dinner in the evening with individuals getting themselves & their boats to each place under their own command, how does that make me liable if someone has an accident due to lack of experience or lack of seaworthiness of their boat???
And if disclaimers aren't valid, where does that leave an event organiser if someone has signed to say they are competent and subsequently prove not to be?
| DJE |
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| 15/05/2008 15:06 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Sailing this evening with three teenagers and one twenty something. Only one of them is mine. No disclaimers, no notes from parents, wouldn't even consider it.
| DRANNIE |
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| 15/05/2008 15:23 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Hasn't this thread been done in similar terms before? Unfair Contract Terms Act, you cannot have a binding waiver for death or personal injury.
Basics of Tort and 'duty of care' have been around since the famous snail case. clicky
There is quite a lot of nonsense about the extent of duty of care published on here. Common sense is the real watchword for most Tort based cases. I think people take insurance issues too personally. If I'm rendered tetraplegic sailing on a fourmites boat because unchecked 15 year old rigging gives way, the mast snaps and breaks my neck, I take it said forumite isn't going come round to pass my catheter and leave a cheque for the mortgage or take my kids to school. Thats what insurance is for isn't it, it removes the need for individual blame. If I badly injured my wife as a passanger in a car crash I would expect her to sue me.
| AntarcticPilot |
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| 15/05/2008 18:07 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Quote:
I speak as a complete layman in legal matter, but am sure I have seen mention of the invalidity of disclaimers.
Under EU law you cannot derogate your responsibilities by having them signed away.
Anyway that's another probably bollox point quoted as fact. (see my signature)
Yes, I have been on a layman's course on disclaimers, and you are quite right; a disclaimer can't remove your duty of care or protect you from your own negligence. Any disclaimer which attempts to do so would be struck down by a judge. It isn't EU law, though - it is British Law with which the EU has kept up!
But the question here isn't about disclaimers. The child was alone with adults not its parents. The Police were looking for evidence that the child was in the situation of its own free will and with the knowledge of its parents. I'd say that was fair enough; regrettably abductions and so on do happen. We have the luxury of assuming that people are on the whole OK; the Police don't.
On the whole the Police do a necessary, if unpleasant, job. They have to work within a strict legal framework, and if they get it wrong they will be hammered by everyone. And they can't win. If they check that a child is with adults that it knows and that its parents know where it is, they get called names for harassment. But if they didn't, and the child was being abducted, they'd get called worse things for dereliction of duty!
| davidfox |
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| 15/05/2008 20:31 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Thanks, its probably in all likelihood to be two couples, dont fancy having to be responsible for kids other than my own! at least not in a boat.
| LadyInBed |
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| 15/05/2008 21:03 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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disclaimer letters - on waterproof paper with waterproof ink and stored in a corked bottle
| wotayottie |
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| 15/05/2008 21:09 |
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Re: Having peeps sign disclaimers.
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Whatever the duty of care that you owe to an adult on your boat, the legal situation with a child under 16 is very different. The law makes assumptions about the levels of supervision required when children are present and depending on their age, and you cannot simply leave it all down to the parent as illustrated by the bouncy castle case. You might take the view that its an insurance company problem but only if you are confident that the cover is great enough (paraplegic child? £5 million?) and that the company will definitely pay out.
Given the unpredictability of the courts and the insurance companies ability to wriggle, the only sensible thing is never to take other peoples kids sailing imho. Sad but there it is.