| tomboy352 |
| (regular) |
| 16/05/2008 17:46 |
What went wrong with my Varta deepcycle batteries ?
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Three years ago I replaced my second lot of Tudor batteries for Varta wet deepcycle batteries. Each of the Tudors did five years. The Vartas (2 x 180ah) are down in capacity to, I guess less than half .(ManBat of Chesterfield say they are about 60%) I have 150A alternators with an Adverc, 75w solar pannel and 100w Wind genny. Battery monitor by Link. I take my battery maintenance seriously and little has changed in life-style between the Tudor cruising (no longer available) and the Varta cruising. I have to admit that I always had problems trying to get the S.G 's with the Vartas up. The terminal volts would rise and reduce the charging current but the specific gravities got lower and lower. Another yacht in our club has had the same problem with his Vartas. The supplier cannot find any manufacturing fault, which is a shame as the guarantee still has 12 months to run. What did I do wrong? or am I expecting too much from an expensive Battery ?
| S28 |
| (regular) |
| 16/05/2008 17:59 |
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Re: What went wrong with my Varta deepcycle batteries ?
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Not sure, but were the Solar panels a recent addition?
I've noticed that "fast" charging with the alternators seems to release some lost capacity that trickle charging never seems to find. No idea why this might be the case.
dv.
| freewind |
| (regular) |
| 16/05/2008 18:04 |
Re: What went wrong with my Varta deepcycle batteries ?
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I don't understand why, if they will not charge to capacity, the supplier says they are ok.
| tomboy352 |
| (regular) |
| 16/05/2008 22:28 |
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Re: What went wrong with my Varta deepcycle batteries ?
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The solar pannel has been on for about 7 years. When I leave the boat, the batteries are always fully charged by the battery charger, then the pannel and wind genny keep nibbling away slowly at that portion of charge you can never seem to replace. Im not talking of overcharging, but topping up. In winter, I might get 20ah plus a week added to the running total of the battery monitor. But it
always felt as though the batteries were always needing a forced heavey charge from a source that only auto electricians might have in their workshops. The Tudor cells, I could keep their S.G's up but not the Varta.
| halcyon |
| (regular) |
| 16/05/2008 23:15 |
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Re: What went wrong with my Varta deepcycle batteries ?
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What voltages are you seeing ? and over what time scale ?
Brian
| dk |
| (regular) |
| 17/05/2008 05:57 |
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Re: What went wrong with my Varta deepcycle batteries ?
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360Ah of deep-cycle batteries would require a 40A, 3-stage mains battery charger to properly get them up to a fully charged state. Most people have trouble because they buy too much capacity, but don't have a serious enough charger. Your 75W solar panel & 100W wind genny will be pretty much useless on a battery bank of this size, unless first taken to 98% capacity by a hefty mains charger or alternator with smart regulator. If you've let them drop below 30% charge they will be useless by now i'm afraid!
| csail |
| (regular) |
| 17/05/2008 06:48 |
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Re: What went wrong with my Varta deepcycle batteries ?
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Same here, i had to buy a full set of new batteries.
| tomboy352 |
| (regular) |
| 17/05/2008 11:39 |
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Re: voltages
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I have a 2 stage 20A battery charger.When on long cruises, I have never discharged below 100ah and the 150a alts recover this without problem. I noticed the battery capacity problems this winter,(using the boat as an occasional caravan in the marina) With 50ah discharge and a 10A load,(a typical load is nearer 5A) I was showing 11.9v and the heater was failing with low battery code. The charger cuts out after perhaps a couple of hours, we show 13.2v If I leave the boat and return with a little weak sun, I often see about 13.8 on the monitor but this quickly drops off on discharge. The S.G just reach 1220. A few months ago a attached a Halford's car charger for 60 hours, kicking out 1A or so. and managed to lift th S.G to 1250 but this was not a cure. We are about to embark on a 5 month cruise of Ireland where we will spend most of it on anchor. Tryinf to rejuvinate my vartas with some heavey charging might not give me the peace of mind that new batteries would. Culd it be that the marina use of the batteries is not being recharged by my battery charger although I am not deep discharging but recharging at about 50ah discharge ? And that the cruising system I emplay is probably ok?
| wotayottie |
| (regular) |
| 17/05/2008 12:17 |
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Re: What went wrong with my Varta deepcycle batteries ?
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Quote:
I don't understand why, if they will not charge to capacity, the supplier says they are ok.
Simple. Batteries are like shoe leather - they wear with use and capacity continually falls. They are not like a piece of electronics which either works or doesnt. And the extent to which battery capacity falls and the time it does it in depends on the way they are used.
Usually a very small number of cycles to full discharge are sufficient to bugger up a battery entirely.
| wotayottie |
| (regular) |
| 17/05/2008 12:21 |
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Re: What went wrong with my Varta deepcycle batteries ?
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The obvious question is how far are you typically discharging the batteries?
Two 150 amp alternators sounds like too much for the size of the bank. Cant remember what the rule of thumb is now, but I'm sure it isnt 1 for 1. My 200 AH of batteries works fine with one 60A alternator.
| Captainslarty |
| (regular) |
| 17/05/2008 12:41 |
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Re: voltages
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Hi tomboy.
Basicall the Varta 180 is NOT - despite what they say - a quality deep cycle battery.
Also, I think your biggest problem is intial cycle overcharge with the 150 amp alternator. The manufacturer recommends C/10 charge (to be safe) but the common acceptance of regime for this type of battery (Basically a slightly beefed up car battery) is C/4 or 25%.. your 150 amp alternator is probably doing more damage than good in the first of the stage cycles. - this will lead to rapid voltage rise, heat, and difficulty accepting further charge - as well as loss of lfuid - and acid contrary to their literature.
The battery is only designed for 500 cycles - IF used in the optimum way - far less in your case. It is not what I would call a 'good' marine battery - it is however, grossly overpriced.
Heres some data
Battery type: 963 51
Varta Number: 0 96351 310
Siomar Number: E12V165N
Rated voltage: 12 V
Nominal capacity C20: 180 Ah
(20 hrs. at 27° C)
Nominal capacity C5: 135 Ah
(5 hrs. at 27° C)
Features: - Up to 3 times higher cyclic capacity than
conventional batteries
- Spill proof to 55°
Dimensions in mm:
-Length: 513 mm
-Width: 223 mm
-Height: 223 mm
Weight (dry): approx. 37,1 kg
Weight (filled): approx. 50,7 kg
Acid filling quantity: approx.. 13,6 kg sulphuric acid, density 1,28 kg/l
(Or 1.24kg/l for standby applications)
Terminal layout (ETN, DIN 72 311) : 3
Terminal (ETN, DIN 72 311) : 1
Base hold down (ETN, DIN 72 311): none
Normal charge
- charging voltage: max. 14,4 V
- charging current: 1/10 of nominal capacity in A
(C5 or C20; according to requirement)
- charging characteristic : IU
Float charge *1)
- charging voltage: 13,38 V ( 2,23V / cell)
- charge-/discharge cycles: approx. 500
- max. discharge capacity: 60 % of nominal capacity
Standards: DIN 43 539 part 3
DIN 41 773, charger with IU-charging characteristic
VB Autobatterie GmbH
DIN 43 530, electrolyte for lead acid accumulators
Warranty: 12 months factory warranty on faulty materials and
workmanship from date of delivery
Maintenance: Under normal conditions which are defined as
recommended charge regime at room temperature
of 20ºC to 25ºC this battery requires negligible
maintenance. At higher temperatures where there
is no voltage compensation on charging or there is
heavy cyclic use some maintenance is necessary.
*1) for float charge more maintenance could be necessary, acid level has to be checked regularly and distilled
water has to topped up if needed. To prevent acid stratification a charge at 14,4 V at regular intervals is
necessary.
I would seriously suggest you consider the trojan t105's as replacements - with your alternator, try to get six for 675Ah nominal bank size.
Here we are talking a nominal 2000 cycle rate, as opposed to 500.. and they really are quality..
Sorry to be the bringer of bad news.. expense and 'leisure' do not a battery make.
Joe
| TudorSailor |
| (regular) |
| 17/05/2008 12:43 |
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Re: What went wrong with my Varta deepcycle batteries ?
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I have just bought a new set of Varta batteries. My yacht lies in the marina in Mallorca. When I am not on board, there is nothing running that needs battery power. Before I replaced the batteries the constant use of the battery charger on duff batteries, meant that they kept drying out over the course of a few weeks, 'cos they always seemed to be charging and bubbling away. I have a Mastervolt controller that should control the charging. My question is whether I should leave the shore power connected and the battery charger on, or should I have the battery charger off.
Thanks
TudorSailor
| Captainslarty |
| (regular) |
| 17/05/2008 12:46 |
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Re: What went wrong with my Varta deepcycle batteries ?
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Depends on what else is connected (Solar wind etc) and also what float voltage your charger outputs.
See the data sheet spec above for the 180 varta and float recommendations, then check the charger output on float. - if its higher than spec, no you cant leave it on really without gassing and top up needed.
Joe
| stevebirch2002 |
| (regular) |
| 17/05/2008 12:46 |
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Re: What went wrong with my Varta deepcycle batteries ?
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Get cheap Leisure batteries and expect to change them every 3 -4 years
Cheers
S
| Captainslarty |
| (regular) |
| 17/05/2008 13:09 |
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Re: What went wrong with my Varta deepcycle batteries ?
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Hi Steve.. there is 'cheap' and cheap ...
t105's -imho the best available deep cycle fluid battery on a cost / quality basis is not expensive - around 170 squids for a 225ah (2 battery pack as they are 6v).. they are also available most everywhere in the developed world (that has golf courses and carts lol)
You DO NOT always get what you pay for.
Joe
| stevebirch2002 |
| (regular) |
| 17/05/2008 14:18 |
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Re: What went wrong with my Varta deepcycle batteries ?
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Hi Joe, Agree with you dont always get what you pay for. I had a long chat with Charles Sterling a few years back and he made sense. Since then I have always used the £40 100AH leisure Batteries. They seem to last me 3 - 4 years and dont cause me a great deal of problems. If batteries are gonna last 3 -4 years then doesnt really matter what make? I only sail weekends and a 2 -3 week trip each year so perhaps not right for livaboard or long term cruisers.
Cheers Steve
| Captainslarty |
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| 17/05/2008 14:24 |
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Re: What went wrong with my Varta deepcycle batteries ?
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Yo Steve, spot on, CS knows his stuff ok.. for us, its different..we ARE full time liveaboards - all we own.. so the usage is different..
Our Trojan bank - whilst not being TOO expensive (8 105's) for the house and 2 gawd knows whatt diesel batteries for the engine bank are an investement - for us - .. but for other types of boat usage.. no wucking furries.
Joe
| Login_name |
| (regular) |
| 17/05/2008 19:33 |
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Re: And now for the bad news!
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Thats exactly what I do. My last battery lasted 3 years. The one before lasted 5 years.
The bad news? I bought a new one a couple of weeks ago; the price had doubled in 3 years.
I doubt if you'll get another 100AH for £40.
I got a quote on a proper deep cycle: £240 +VAT
| sailorman |
| (regular) |
| 17/05/2008 19:45 |
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Re: And now for the bad news!
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i boughjt 4 x 110Ah batteries from Simpson-Lawrence prior to their sad demise
one is dedicated engine
3 are linked for domestic
all are over 8 yrs old now
no fast charge
a simple hella 15 Amp charger used only when O/b + engine alternator.
i personally think alternator controllers are the Devils work
All the above just my experences
i have had fast chargers on other boats they either stuff the batteries or the alternator
| tomboy352 |
| (regular) |
| 17/05/2008 19:48 |
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Re: trojan batteries
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Hi Joe, thanks for your informative reply. I have looked up T120's on Tanya Batteries and found a 12v deep cycle at around 180 quid. I could just squeeze in 3 of these . I think they were something like L340 x w 180 xh248 ish. I have a fixed , vented battery box which cannot be resized . It is 1.04m long. Are these the cells you were recommending or are they ok? I have been looking at some Lucas battery called a Squadron battery but would prefer the 2000 cycle type. Afterall, it is heavey work re-batterying. Not something I wish to repeat regularly.
Regards
Chris
| Alfie168 |
| (regular) |
| 18/05/2008 19:07 |
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Re: trojan batteries
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Do leisure batteries come any cheaper than this? I can't vouch for the quality of course.
http://www.wilcodirect.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=153
Tim