rubberduck
regular
Reged: 01/11/2006
Posts: 1522
Loc: essex
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On a more serious note than my previous posting,biodiesel would seem to be a good way forward after giving us a reasonable time to adjust,this could be used by all & at lower duty than conventional diesel,if the powers that be can be believed about thier environmental aspirations! 
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jezbanks
regular
Reged: 04/04/2005
Posts: 7107
Loc: ality Unknown
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yep, Biodiesel duty is 26.7 pence per litre.
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BrendanS
regular
Reged: 11/06/2002
Posts: 35452
Loc: Me: Wilts. Boat: Lymington
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plus VAT?
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See http://www.frappr.com/ybw to add yourself to the forum map
and as everyone else is doing it
www.plaintalkconsulting.co.uk
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rubberduck
regular
Reged: 01/11/2006
Posts: 1522
Loc: essex
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Perhaps a special rate for fishermen and stop any foreign fishermen from coming anywhere near the uk unless they use green fuels,and apply some common sense to the silly idea of two different types of diesel at ports & marinas,for the amount of duty it would raise.How could the eu contest such a green policy?
Could we not apply same theory to imports,if the supplier doesn't meet minimum green targets charge a carbon tax!
Edited by rubberduck (11/12/2006 02:34)
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jezbanks
regular
Reged: 04/04/2005
Posts: 7107
Loc: ality Unknown
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Quote:
plus VAT?
Dunno, good question though and I will look into it.
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David2452
regular
Reged: 06/06/2001
Posts: 647
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Quote:
plus VAT?
If you sell it and are VAT registered then you would charge VAT on the price (including duty), if just brewing your own or selling it on and you are not VAT registered the no VAT is charged. but whatever happens the duty must be paid "at source"
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JamesVFuelsBiodiesel
new user
Reged: 11/12/2006
Posts: 8
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Hi all,
I am putting this post on behalf of our Biodiesel company. Our biodiesel can be used at a lower rate of duty, rather than conventionial mineral diesel. At the moment duty rate for Mineral diesel is 48.35ppl, and Bio only 28.35ppl, but the extra margin being made up in extra cost of production.
Our company can still provide our Bio at a cheaper price than that of white diesel.
The company has a high output of Biodiesel from a range of feedstocks producing a high quality finished product, and would be looking to deal in high volumes. Any queries please email me at james.stairmand@vfuels.co.uk
James
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macnorton
regular
Reged: 11/12/2006
Posts: 240
Loc: East Anglia
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I looked into biofuel and decided it was a non starter for two reasons.
1 the additives used seperate quickly giving the fuel a very short shelf life.
2 when used it will block the filters eventualy stopping the engine.
This info came from "Cambridge biofuels" who charge 100p per litre and you have to claim your own vat back!
Best to write to your MP's and try to keep the increase lower and staged in.
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"The world is full of kings and queen's, who blind your eyes and steal your dream's"
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Andrew_Fanner
regular
Reged: 13/03/2002
Posts: 5319
Loc: Hampshire
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Quote:
Hi all,
I am putting this post on behalf of our Biodiesel company. Our biodiesel can be used at a lower rate of duty, rather than conventionial mineral diesel. At the moment duty rate for Mineral diesel is 48.35ppl, and Bio only 28.35ppl, but the extra margin being made up in extra cost of production.
Our company can still provide our Bio at a cheaper price than that of white diesel.
The company has a high output of Biodiesel from a range of feedstocks producing a high quality finished product, and would be looking to deal in high volumes. Any queries please email me at james.stairmand@vfuels.co.uk
James
Cut through.
How much per litre for, say
100l
250l
500l
750l
1000l
delivered into the boat's tankage?
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Two beers please, my friend is paying.
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JamesVFuelsBiodiesel
new user
Reged: 11/12/2006
Posts: 8
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In answer to your question, we are a large producer looking to sell tanker loads of 30,000 litres, but we will be looking to set up a smaller distribution networks nationwide. Any ideas on this front?
We always aim to keep our prices below that of the mineral diesel, and the difference is usually 1ppl-2ppl. In regards to the previous comment, it should be made aware it is not the biodiesel that clogs up the filters, but the biodiesel strips out any previous rubbish that has been put in. This is easy enough to overcome by changing your filter with no problems at all!
Any questions or queries please email me on james.stairmand@vfuels.co.uk
Regards
James
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Andrew_Fanner
regular
Reged: 13/03/2002
Posts: 5319
Loc: Hampshire
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>>>
We always aim to keep our prices below that of the mineral diesel, and the difference is usually 1ppl-2ppl.
>>>
If thats 88p as opposed to 90p and I have to buy 30000l, not too useful for an individual or small syndicate. If thats 48ppl but still 30000l then still syndicate purchase but more worth the palaver of setting one up.
If biodiesel is carbon neutral how is any "green" or "pollution" tax justified as tuppence seems little incentive for the average Joe? Or is it a % of carbon neutral in refined petroleum and thus a % of full tax? I've no idea how the stuff works but it does seem to be the topic of the moment.
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Two beers please, my friend is paying.
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JamesVFuelsBiodiesel
new user
Reged: 11/12/2006
Posts: 8
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The idea is that we would supply a local distributor, to which they could provide you the Bio with a couple pence off per litre. It may or may not be of use to know that if you had a diesel car, you could also run this off the Biodiesel. The taxation is 20pence less than the mineral diesel, but the extra cost of production, means that the prices are literally at the same rate.
Any questions dont hesitate to email me at james.stairmand@vfuels.co.uk
Regards
James
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rubberduck
regular
Reged: 01/11/2006
Posts: 1522
Loc: essex
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Cannot see people changing to bio in any number unless it is significantly cheaper than conventional stuff,are the government green or mean?
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jezbanks
regular
Reged: 04/04/2005
Posts: 7107
Loc: ality Unknown
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But you are charging for road duty. Non-road duty is currently 3.1p/litre (compared to Road Duty at 27.1p/litre). Why are you not pushing this to the marine industry, as it would come in a significantly less than White diesel. It would mean your bio diesel would be around £0.55/litre - a much better prospect.
Mind you, from the prices you want to charge you are already uncompetitive in a fledgling market. I can get 1000 litres of bio delivered for £0.78/litre Road Duty paid, which is a full £0.10 less than road derv.
For 30,000 litres I would want a serious discount I'm afraid.
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JamesVFuelsBiodiesel
new user
Reged: 11/12/2006
Posts: 8
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The more I keep looking into it, the more I think that the duty of 3.13ppl would be applicable. This does mean we could supply at a price of around 55ppl. The law as i understand, states that Biodiesel used for an end use other than road use is taxable at a rate of 3.13ppl. I am still waiting to hear back from Customs and Excise to confrm this. If this is the case would people be interested at high quantities?
Any questions or queries dont hesitate to contact me at james.stairmand@vfuels.co.uk
Regards
James
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jezbanks
regular
Reged: 04/04/2005
Posts: 7107
Loc: ality Unknown
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Yes, but there is no reason to question HMRC about duty. They are very, very clear in their documentation. The duty for NON-Road vehicles and stationary engines is £0.0311/litre.
My boat is NON-Road Vehicle, my Genrator is a stationary engine, my Tractor is a non-road vehicle if I keep it on the farm. The more we ask them to clarify the situation, the more opportunity we give them to think about the legislation and wack some duty on it.
Lets just go with the letter of the law as it stands and keep quiet!
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jezbanks
regular
Reged: 04/04/2005
Posts: 7107
Loc: ality Unknown
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As for high quanitites, just see how much you average marina goes through on a Bank holiday weekend? I can think of several boats that take over 2500 litres on one fill up.
Just don't be greedy and support any network that is put in place.
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JamesVFuelsBiodiesel
new user
Reged: 11/12/2006
Posts: 8
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Our issue is that we would ideally be looking to deal with full tanker loads of 30,000 litre lots. Obviously this is much larger than most people can handle. We would like to set up local networks in all areas, but we are not specialists in the marine industry, so would be hapy to listen to those who are!
Anyone looking to get involved can email me easily at james.stairmand@vfuels.co.uk
Look forward to hearing from you all!
Regards
James
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jezbanks
regular
Reged: 04/04/2005
Posts: 7107
Loc: ality Unknown
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Ok, accepting that you have a network of marinas who only really service pleasure boats at present (no fishing fleets in 90% on the south coast), they should be happy to swap over to bio. All you need to do is ensure the quality is as good as it can be, and that you have added the stabalisers which are available to prevent water mixing with the fuel.
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Andrew_Fanner
regular
Reged: 13/03/2002
Posts: 5319
Loc: Hampshire
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At 55ppl even Mr Poverty here would be quite prepared to use the stuff. Now, how is it with smoke and AD41s?
:-)
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Two beers please, my friend is paying.
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jezbanks
regular
Reged: 04/04/2005
Posts: 7107
Loc: ality Unknown
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In all seriousness, apparently Bio produces much less emissions and smoke than DERV, so even you AD41 users might be smog free 
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rickp
regular
Reged: 10/11/2002
Posts: 5204
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Have we had answers to the shelf-life question in a boat's tank? Also - are fuel pumps okay on it, as I've heard concerns about that raised....
Rick
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jezbanks
regular
Reged: 04/04/2005
Posts: 7107
Loc: ality Unknown
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Don't know about the fuel pumps, I've not heard that there is a problem if it is in a reasonably modern engine (post 1990 ish).
Recommendation seems to be that 1/2 a tank of derv every now and then doesn't hurt. The main problem with logevity is that Bio will actually absorb water if left untreated over a period of time. Obviously not an issue in cars etc but in boats would be a problem.
There is an additive avaible which stop the problem, and should be added to 'marine' bio diesel. Does add 3-5p per litre though 
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RobWheatley
regular
Reged: 21/10/2006
Posts: 13
Loc: Gillingham, Kent UK
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Quote:
Have we had answers to the shelf-life question in a boat's tank? Also - are fuel pumps okay on it, as I've heard concerns about that raised....
Rick
Going by the car side of Bio (SVO), most bosch pumps are ok with it, but lucas pumps have problems with the seals swelling and too tight tolerances causing lubrication problems.
Only other problem as i can see is it might make starting in the winter harder as the bio is a little bit thicker i think, but that could just bo on SVO.
Tried an Escort van on 90% SVO 10% DERV and it ran no problems, even seemed quieter.
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1966 Dell Quay Ranger 27 "Bluecat"
Twin Volvo AQ140/280D
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Gandy
regular
Reged: 24/08/2004
Posts: 2317
Loc: Aberdeenshire (quite far from ...
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Biodiesel isn't the same as Straight Vegetable Oil, is it?
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Tony S
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rubberduck
regular
Reged: 01/11/2006
Posts: 1522
Loc: essex
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So we have red for a while longer,it would seem,but bio i hope is the way to go.Now need some experts at mercruiser,volvo,yanmar etc to have a serious look,if they want to keep sales up.If some minor adjustments are needed perhaps they could offer a bio conversion pack with manual!!!!
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robind
regular
Reged: 23/07/2003
Posts: 1432
Loc: sussex
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Volvo reckon that you can use it at a 5% mix only ie 5% bio to 95% road or red? I understand?
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jezbanks
regular
Reged: 04/04/2005
Posts: 7107
Loc: ality Unknown
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That is for warrenty on engines <2 years old. TBH, Bio is fine in the engine to 100%, mine are out of VP warrenty, so they can go hang themselves. Same reason VP main dealers don't touch my boat. They tend to be expensive and crap
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OutOfTheCloset
regular
Reged: 31/08/2004
Posts: 29
Loc: UK,Poole
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James
Can you advise whether your Biodiesel adhears and tested to the EN14214(?) standard and do you have a list of fuel pumps/ marine engines that the diesel will work with.
Based on the above are you happy to run 100% bio or a mix?
From a delivery side what are the options and affects on price.
Looked into making Bio myself, as I could make it pay in 18 months ( price of processor, chems and other equip ), but lack of space stopped me!
Thanks in advance
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OutOfTheCloset
regular
Reged: 31/08/2004
Posts: 29
Loc: UK,Poole
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Robind
As an example in Germany all pump diesel is 5% bio and 95% dino. 5% is a very safe mix and most likely not going to cause any issues to fuel pumps. I'm no engineer but newer engines run at much higher pressure and aren't good candidates for bio as they will clog up, especially when started cold.
Older engines and I'm not sure what that means may be capable of running 100%.
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OutOfTheCloset
regular
Reged: 31/08/2004
Posts: 29
Loc: UK,Poole
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Grandy
Biodiesel will take a base vegetable oil and pass it through a process called transeterification which means heating and use of some nasty chemicals. The result is some waste ( glycerin ) and hopefully a good quality bio diesel.
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JamesVFuelsBiodiesel
new user
Reged: 11/12/2006
Posts: 8
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Hi,
Yes our Biodiesel is made to EN14214 specifications. We would be happy for customers to use a high blend ratio, but we would generally recommend a 50/50 blend until customers have built up a trust in the product.
Delivery wise we would be looking to deal in 30,000kl lots, but realise this would be tricky for most people to handle. We would be looking to supply local distributors if this is an issue, and they could then go supply to you in smaller quantities.
Sorry for the delay in my response!
Any questions don't hesitate to email me at james.stairmand@vfuels.co.uk
Regards
James
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rubberduck
regular
Reged: 01/11/2006
Posts: 1522
Loc: essex
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