Geoffs
regular
Reged: 15/06/2001
Posts: 1754
Loc: Wantage,Oxfordshire
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Having read the 'You decide the future of red' article in MBM, I've read the HMRC consultaion ducument and responded thus.
____________________________________________________________________
I would suggest that OPTION A would be the most favourable option. Surely this would also give HMRC the chance to introduce a rate of duty that meets European Union requirements without having to charge the full duty as applied to Road Vehicles. HM Government supported and applied for an extension to derogation, so has no desire to charge higher rates of duty, other than that required by EU law. Under this option fuel oil would continue to be marked, minimising mis use in road transport.
Therefore I support option A, but suggest a duty rate that meets EU law, without imposing excessive burdens on the marine industry.
____________________________________________________________________
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Old Chinese proverb 'Man who sail boat into rice field, soon get into paddy'
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jrb1978
regular
Reged: 04/04/2005
Posts: 7821
Loc: ality Unknown
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Good response
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rubberduck
regular
Reged: 01/11/2006
Posts: 1654
Loc: essex
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Lets see if they listen.
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Magnum
regular
Reged: 14/01/2004
Posts: 1821
Loc: Switzerland
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Quote:
Lets see if they listen.
Don't hold your breath.
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Chris_d
regular
Reged: 15/06/2001
Posts: 1613
Loc: Oxfordshire
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Doesn't EU law state that they can't charge different rates for different users, so we are stuck with the same rate as roadusers anyway?
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rubberduck
regular
Reged: 01/11/2006
Posts: 1654
Loc: essex
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You know what you can do with EU law. Anyway aren't laws there to be broken ? 
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jrb1978
regular
Reged: 04/04/2005
Posts: 7821
Loc: ality Unknown
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Yes, but that is for the same fuel. If we use red then it is a different fule to ULSD that road vehicles use and therefor it is legal to charge a different rate of duty
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Geoffs
regular
Reged: 15/06/2001
Posts: 1754
Loc: Wantage,Oxfordshire
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I guess that's right, otherwise we would never have enjoyed rebated red diesel. But as Magnum said, 'Don't hold your breath!'.
Also an interesting point, if this were true, HM Gov can't charge different rates for private and commercial users, can they?
However others might like to respond in a similar vain, just maybe, if enough make the point someone might listen. Pigs all fueled and ready for take off
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Old Chinese proverb 'Man who sail boat into rice field, soon get into paddy'
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Sneds
regular
Reged: 26/02/2007
Posts: 2500
Loc: Bristol Channel
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Like it! Will do same.
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"See the rainbow not the rain"
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Chris_d
regular
Reged: 15/06/2001
Posts: 1613
Loc: Oxfordshire
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Hey don't tell me where to stick it, I'll gladly stick it up Brussells and Gordons 
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AdeOlly
regular
Reged: 19/12/2004
Posts: 661
Loc: Hayling Island
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Interesting that it seems HMRC think they can charge different rate of duty on red depending on the status of the end user which is contrary to earlier indications from them. If this is actually so and they're not just going through the motions before saying "sorry guys the EU won't allow this, so it's white for all you leisure users" then there must be hope that the minimum rate of duty will be applied to red for leisure use.
If option A were adopted, I wonder if VAT would be charged at 5% as now on red, or 17.5% as it is on white.
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Adrian
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jrb1978
regular
Reged: 04/04/2005
Posts: 7821
Loc: ality Unknown
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VAT can be charged at whatever the chancellor feels like, subject to UK law
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AdeOlly
regular
Reged: 19/12/2004
Posts: 661
Loc: Hayling Island
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Sure, but would it be feasible/lawful to charge 5% on commercial red but 17.5% on leisure red? I can't think of anything where a different rate of VAT is charged on the same product depending on the end user??
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Adrian
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StewartC
MBM Assistant Editor
Reged: 14/12/2005
Posts: 121
Loc: London
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This is a tricky one. Some red diesel sold around the country is ULSD, but most isn't.
Currently, there are no non-commercial uses of non-ULSD. In other words, when we officially lose the derogation in November next year, boaters will be the only people in the country paying the full rate of duty for non-ULSD, as all the other applications in which it is used are rebatable.
You'd be right to think this was grossly unfair. But, it is extremely doubtful that the Government will apply only the EU minimum of duty on non-ULSD, as it fears this will lead to massive fraud on the part of road diesel users.
HMRC says it is also worried about the "environmental signals" lowering non-ULSD duty to the EU minimum would send. And it wouldn't tie in with plans to make all diesel completely sulphur free.
Another argument is that in remote areas that rely on boater dollars, the red diesel used is more often than not just ULSD marked red. So if non-ULSD duty was lowered, then these areas would become uncompetitive.
What it all adds up to is a massive can of worms, and a Government that is not going to give preferential treatment to boaters, even after all its claims that it wholeheartedly supported the marine industry.
So for all this and more, option A is the only realistic one open to us. It will save boaters from cleaning their tanks of red diesel, and it will keep fuel vendors in business.
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Clifford_Pope
regular
Reged: 28/10/2005
Posts: 788
Loc: Pembrokeshire
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Quote:
Sure, but would it be feasible/lawful to charge 5% on commercial red but 17.5% on leisure red? I can't think of anything where a different rate of VAT is charged on the same product depending on the end user??
Registered charities get certain products VAT-free.
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Gandy
regular
Reged: 24/08/2004
Posts: 2362
Loc: Aberdeenshire (quite far from ...
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Quote:
You'd be right to think this was grossly unfair. But, it is extremely doubtful that the Government will apply only the EU minimum of duty on non-ULSD, as it fears this will lead to massive fraud on the part of road diesel users.
As long as its marked Red they still have the same protection against fraudulent use in road vehicles.
There may be some EU thing stopping them charging lower duty on high-sulphur Diesel.
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Tony S
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AdeOlly
regular
Reged: 19/12/2004
Posts: 661
Loc: Hayling Island
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Can't see how leisure red with EU minimum duty can be worse from a fraud or 'environmental' point of view than the current position, where from what you say there is some ULSD being sold with red dye added at the current low rate of red duty, which HMRC were apparently 'happy' to see continue had derogation renewal been granted.
Any clues on the VAT position if option A were adopted? This could make a 10ppl difference if full duty were applied to leisure red. I still don't see how a product can be rated differently (with non-zero rates) depending on the end user.
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Adrian
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Mouner
new user
Reged: 24/08/2007
Posts: 7
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+Having read all the rubbish
Isn't time the RYA and the BMF organized a
mass protest or are the RYA only interested in people that
sale in the Poole area.
I favour option 3 the commercial operatores can and do
claim back all the costs of fuel on thier tax returns
it therefor would not be of anyhadship to them
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jcmmarine
regular
Reged: 07/05/2006
Posts: 664
Loc: Gosport/Europe
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EU Haronisation.
Can we please have
Diesel at Dutch prices
Wine at French prices.
Beer at belgium prices.
Boats at italian prices
Etc.
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John
Sailing is for fun, Engines are for going places.
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adrianm
regular
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 526
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Please not Dutch prices!
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StewartC
MBM Assistant Editor
Reged: 14/12/2005
Posts: 121
Loc: London
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More bad news on this front.
After November next year, diesel for leisure boat use will be subject to the standard rate of VAT, because...
"The reduced rate of VAT does not apply in any circumstances to a supply of hydrocarbon oil that is subject to a full (unrebated or unrelieved) rate of excise duty."
As the red (if the Govt goes with option A) we use after November 1st 2008 will be unrebated, then full VAT will be applied.
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philip_stevens
regular
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 2496
Loc: near Saint Ives, Cornwall
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Standard rate of VAT is 17.5%, but the government also add Excise Duty/Fuel Tax, that takes the price up to what we see on road diesel.
Will they be adding any Excise Duty/Fuel Tax to the red diesel to bring it up to road diesel prices.
What is the present rate of tax on red? Is it 8% or something?
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regards,
Philip
Westerly Owners Association website
http://www.sub-spaced.com
Visit MarinaSkip now
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jrb1978
regular
Reged: 04/04/2005
Posts: 7821
Loc: ality Unknown
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VAT is 5%, duty is 7.44 pence per litre
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philip_stevens
regular
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 2496
Loc: near Saint Ives, Cornwall
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mmmmm. I wonder what the duty will be when they put the 17.5% VAT on red???
The governments are never content with just VAT, they have to have two bites of the cherry. They add duty first, and then add VAT to the price of fuel plus the duty.
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regards,
Philip
Westerly Owners Association website
http://www.sub-spaced.com
Visit MarinaSkip now
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Andrew_Fanner
regular
Reged: 13/03/2002
Posts: 5555
Loc: ked into poverty by children
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After a moderately rubbish two week "cruise", isn't Ramsgate great? I'm back to considering jacking in boating. The socialists in HMG and the EU are in the process of restricting the hobby to the rich.
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Two beers please, my friend is paying.
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Bobobolinsky
regular
Reged: 23/02/2007
Posts: 64
Loc: Lincs UK/Richards Bay ZA
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Hm, I wonder why they did not choose to remove the rail and farming derogations as well?
Farmer Jones filling station and the cost of protecting the marshalling yards perhaps.
Robin
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Bobobolinsky
regular
Reged: 23/02/2007
Posts: 64
Loc: Lincs UK/Richards Bay ZA
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Oh and actually LPG has a different rate of VAT, as to whether it is going in cars or heating a house, also 4.5p road fuel tax
Robin
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porteous
new user
Reged: 20/10/2006
Posts: 5
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At the risk of being lynched I thought I'd add a thought. The principle problem with charging us a low rate of duty seems to be the risk of fraud where different levels of duty are charged for the same fuel. As I understand it the dying of diesel is easy and almost costless when done in the refinery.
Low duty green (dyed) diesel for leisure boaters anyone?
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