ukbaz
new user
Reged: 16/01/2005
Posts: 5
Loc: Brighton
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Hi all
Have to say that I find it less than amusing that Avgas, thanks to a concerted campaign backed by the CAA is to be classified as a "special fuel" so that it can be taxed at the minimum rate of increase. So users of private planes are going to be treated very differently to those of us who have boats.
Having read some of the Parliamentary discussions where we are ALL deemed by some MP's to have mega - Gin palaces, and so can well afford to pay more than double for our fuel, it really is ironic that most of us could not afford a private plane!
Surely if there was a fuel that should be classified as "special" it should be red. It is not used in road vehicles, and like Avgas has a "specialist" application, marine, agricultural, heating etc.
Have the various marine related bodies asked the question why aviation as a recreational pursuit merits a more beneficial tax structure to that of boating?
Edited by ukbaz (06/11/2007 19:22)
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rubberduck
regular
Reged: 01/11/2006
Posts: 1654
Loc: essex
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"Have the various marine related bodies asked the question why aviation as a recreational pursuit merits a more beneficial tax structure to that of boating? "
It is my belief that many of the above genuinely believe it will make no difference. I also believe they are sadly mistaken, still won't affect my business as I don't sell boats & don't rely on them for a living. 
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ukbaz
new user
Reged: 16/01/2005
Posts: 5
Loc: Brighton
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"It is my belief that many of the above genuinely believe it will make no difference. I also believe they are sadly mistaken, still won't affect my business as I don't sell boats & don't rely on them for a living."
Sadly Rubberduck it would appear from the apathy and inefective representations made, that they still are of the opinion that it won't harm that industry that much.
Do they really think that everyone is in the fortunate position of having bottomless pockets, and that in having to pay a 100% increase in a season's fuel costs we will all still leave enough to spend as usual on mooring fees, maintenance services, chandlery, engine servicing et al?
There's a ruddy great juggernaut heading the way of this "ostrich" if they do. Hordes of owners either giving up, moving abroad, or seriously changing their usage patterns...Yet another glorious British pastime for which we all make sacrifices to be decimated and for what?
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TrueBlue
regular
Reged: 30/04/2004
Posts: 1206
Loc: Sussex
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The Avgas case several months ago in the hope that someone in the industry might, might just pick up the issue and see if it had any mileage.
Sadly no-one did.
There has been so much vitriol here and other YBW forums, that I think folks who might have been prepared to make a statement in support have been deterred. I think the vitriol came from low volume users who really don't give an *expletive* and just want to stir it up.
Unfortunately AVGAS is special as it is a higher octane than road fuel as is "brewed" (!) differently.
MGO for pleasure boating is specifically targeted by the EU regulations as not to be available, rebated, but I don't think AVGAS is ?? (not sure).
I think when the ordure hits the spinning blade next November, that the price for boaters will be £1.50 - £1.75 because of the lower volume of sales when compared to road fuel use. If that is true then many users, myself included, will be tempted to fill our boats via jerry cans just to save the difference between filling station and marina prices.
This will increase the risk of pollution. A very bad thing.
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adrianm
regular
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 526
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I doubt that the aviation industry had two distinct camps in the same way that the boating has. There are so many people who want the fuel to go up because they believe it will make their lives better.
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Argonautical
regular
Reged: 20/05/2007
Posts: 763
Loc: North Bedfordshire
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Guys, just a quickie, one other point worthy of note however.......
We are a much bigger, and hence much more lucrative audience all round. There are lot more diesel powered boats around than aircraft and helicopters!
Effort v Numbers............boaters loose, typical EU and Labour bullshit policy really
Jas. I'm dreading it!
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Sgeir
regular
Reged: 22/11/2004
Posts: 5547
Loc: h Linnhe in the summer - Dalle...
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I seem to remember that there are peculiar circumstances about tax/duty on aviation fuel. Isn't it governed by international treaty?
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Ω
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Wight_Dawn
regular
Reged: 21/08/2002
Posts: 775
Loc: Western Scotland
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TrueBlue is wrong to class all "low volume" users as not giving a **** and wanting to stir it up. I probably use only about 60 litres per year but am extremely annoyed about the unfairness of charging road duty for fuel that is not used on the roads and in my case about 30% is used for heating and battery charging. If the rate for fuel at the marina is as high as he is suggesting, then I will be carrying it to the boat in cans, but not I think from the service station forecourt. I think the farm up the road may be able to provide some.
The aviation exemption also strikes me as unfair (to us) and although there may not be as many planes as boats, the tend to use a lot more fuel per hour. Mind you I was passed by a large motor boat last month and as I rolled about in its wake I did speculate on how many gallons per minute he was using and cherished the uncharitable thought that in two years he may use his boat less. Or slower. And preferrably a bit further away from other boats!
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Ken
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Andrew_Fanner
regular
Reged: 13/03/2002
Posts: 5551
Loc: ked into poverty by children
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>>>
two years he may use his boat less. Or slower. And preferrably a bit further away from other boats!
>>>
Or remove his boat and expenditure from your local economy...
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Two beers please, my friend is paying.
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halcyon
regular
Reged: 20/04/2002
Posts: 2823
Loc: Cornwall
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The other thing that annoys me is that the government can bend EU rules for Northern Rock, allowing them to make the £25 billion a loan, totally against EU rules. While we the boater who use red diesel, find EU rules cast in stone, unbendable, fixed, and look we can even charge you more.
If all we go bust, will HMG pay our mooring fees, and cost for us.
Brian
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Kddpowercentre designers and purveyors of fine charging systems for 30 years.
Powercentre spares and help line
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rickp
regular
Reged: 10/11/2002
Posts: 5446
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Aviation has always been a bit strange in that if flying overseas, they could claim the duty back - but we couldn't on marine diesel (or petrol). If the duty is going to be increased to road duty, then shouldn't we be able to claim the duty back for an overseas trip?
Rick
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Nickcf
regular
Reged: 13/04/2004
Posts: 448
Loc: Kent
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Quote:
Aviation has always been a bit strange in that if flying overseas, they could claim the duty back - but we couldn't on marine diesel (or petrol). If the duty is going to be increased to road duty, then shouldn't we be able to claim the duty back for an overseas trip?
Rick
You can but only if you travel far enough. see the previous thread
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1597078/an/0/page/0#1597078
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rickp
regular
Reged: 10/11/2002
Posts: 5446
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And yet for aircraft, a trip to Le Touquet is sufficient? 
Rick
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Nickcf
regular
Reged: 13/04/2004
Posts: 448
Loc: Kent
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but don't forget that the Channel Islands is still a duty free location. Red will still be available after Nov 2008 for leisure boats. I paid 35p/litre there this year (June)
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rickp
regular
Reged: 10/11/2002
Posts: 5446
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Which island? In Guernsey last Easter it was more expensive than the UK (though that was from Marine Works and Beaucette - not from the tanker).
Rick
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Nickcf
regular
Reged: 13/04/2004
Posts: 448
Loc: Kent
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Tanker from St Sampsons
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MASH
regular
Reged: 08/03/2004
Posts: 382
Loc: UK
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Could it be that our "leaders" in Whitehall suspect that red is widely used in taxable applications (surely no one would do that...) but AVGAS is useless for anything but aircraft, and therefore cannot be "diverted" to other uses.
To the dull wit of the Whitehall bureautwat this might well suggest that AVGAS is "harmless" as no tax revenue is being lost, but as red is being widely misused than an attempt to claw back some of the "missing" revenue must be made.
To the poster who stated that aircraft use much more fuel than boats, Oh dear, where do I start? Pal, most light aircraft have one engine of less than 150HP and thus burn (1 GAL/20BHP/Hr as a rule of thumb) roughly 5 GPH at cruise power. Guess what, bigger ones use more! There are relatively few light aircraft in the twin 350Hp category - common as hell in boats...
BTW, aviators never use the slightly snide description "private" appended to any aircraft, any more than they would so refer to your private boats... or cars, or houses, or lawnmowers... What constitutes a Public aircraft? RAF?
Remember, flying is totally safe, all accidents occur at ground level.
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Clifford_Pope
regular
Reged: 28/10/2005
Posts: 787
Loc: Pembrokeshire
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It's surely a quite straightforward distinction:
Public transport = bus or train that anyone can get on, private transport = car for personal use
Public company = one with tradeable shares that anyone can buy, private company = one with non-quoted restricted share ownership.
So I image public plane = scheduled air flight, private plane = one just for you.
I could go on:
Public boat (more likely ferry, or hire boat) = one available to anyone , private boat = just you and me.
Public house = pub where anyone can drink, private house = mine.
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MASH
regular
Reged: 08/03/2004
Posts: 382
Loc: UK
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So why are aircraft so often described as "private" when cars, boats and houses are not? It implies a distinction in the mind of the speaker.
An airliner is not public, it is as privately owned as your boat, just available for hire.
A corporation bus (if any still exist) is public. An RAF Tornado is publically owned, though not publically available. Many "private" aircraft are publically available for hire via a flying club, so why the distinction?
T'ain't logical!
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Andrew_Fanner
regular
Reged: 13/03/2002
Posts: 5551
Loc: ked into poverty by children
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>>>
T'ain't logical!
>>>
Its socialist politics, when did logic enter into it?
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Two beers please, my friend is paying.
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Clifford_Pope
regular
Reged: 28/10/2005
Posts: 787
Loc: Pembrokeshire
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Quote:
So why are aircraft so often described as "private" when cars, boats and houses are not? !
But they are. I often see all those referred to as private. Every budget we hear about "private motorists".
It's an obvious distinction. Public has nothing to do with public ownership - it means anyone can use it simply by turning up at the office or the gate or the kiosk or the stock exchange and offering the right money. If something is private you can't use it, unless you manage to do a private deal with the owner.
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unit18
regular
Reged: 28/10/2003
Posts: 3672
Loc: Kent
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Quote:
BTW, aviators never use the slightly snide description "private" appended to any aircraft, any more than they would so refer to your private boats... or cars, or houses, or lawnmowers... What constitutes a Public aircraft? RAF?
I must admit, I don't see what the problem is, I flew private/light aircraft for over twenty years, from homebuilts to twins and never heard anyone have a problem with the term private.
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Motorboats never, ever break down.
They just fail to proceed.
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tonydalton
regular
Reged: 05/03/2007
Posts: 17
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for those of you who think avgas can only be used in planes. then here is a good use for it even though it is a lot more expensive than pump prices. labled as 100ll ie low lead and high octane it also has a no rot property, this means it is quite safe to keep it in your aeroplane tanks for years and it will be safe to use it. it is also really good for your lawn mower just run your last cut of the season with avgas and your carbs will be as good as new at the start of the next season and the small amount of avgas in the tank will keep good. this also means that your outboard can be run through with avgas but i would check woth your manufacturer first. might be ideal for the smaller cheaper motors. as for costs of boating diesel i dread what might happen in the next couple of years i run a commercial operation but the rising cost of fuel still does not make me a happy bunny because it dents my profits big style. i am going to look at the bio fuel options in the future as this might be the only way to control diesel prices.
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Grumpy_0_G
regular
Reged: 09/01/2005
Posts: 598
Loc: South Coast
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Aircraft are referred to as Private, Commercial or Military
Pilots are also referred to as Private, Commercial or Military
Civil Aviation includes Private and Commercial Aviation.
Least it always used to when I flew. I often used to have to explain to to visiting pilots that they couldn't fly a particular aircraft as it was private, not RAF, and they would need the owners permission.
Apologies if I've replied to wrong post.
Seperately, does anyone know what happens to MoGas (effectively unleaded road fuel). Aircraft engines were starting to be certified for this more and more in the 80's and 90's. Will that be taxed at the same rate as AvGas?
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