mrbloto
regular
Reged: 31/12/2007
Posts: 192
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a growing claim culture in this country, everybody is very jittery about teaching ,and learning and getting qualifications,everybody seems to not want take the blame when the s**t hits the fan. since joining e u its paperwork ,nothing gets done when iwas young you had boys brigade, sea scouts , sea cadets.
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graham
regular
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 5956
Loc: South Wales
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I agree about the claim culture bit Tim .
You make it sound as if noone is willing to do anything these days and that isnt right.There are at least 3 active scout groups in Barry Alone. I believe the Sea Cadets still exist as well.Was over the boat this morning and there were dozens of kids being taught in Oppies and toppers with a mixture of proffesional instructors and willing volunteers in safety boats etc. Really great to see so many of them doing something worthwile.
Sure the leaders and helpers have to jump through a few more hoops to keep within the rules these days. Just to be a parent helper with the scouts I had to attend a short course on child protection and have a police check. Not a bad thing IMHO.Theres no doubt that in the past these organizations have been used by some adults with evil intent.
Fortunately there are still some decent people willing to run scouts etc .
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http://banjocoronado25.blogspot.com/
All Hardwood used in Banjos restoration comes from sustainable sources. Usually the Boat Club Skip :-)
Edited by graham (02/04/2008 17:33)
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chrishelen
regular
Reged: 07/01/2007
Posts: 1041
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There is also an organization called the Maritime Volunteer Service(MVS)that meet up on a wednesday night over the dock and teach all aspects of seamanship they also have their own craft to practice on.
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tangomoon
regular
Reged: 18/10/2004
Posts: 1427
Loc: SW
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Thanks for your considered points.
I do not blame the RYA - their courses are doing a good job of disseminating information for safer boating.
Your 'experienced man may have been on a week's course and become certificated as YM - not a lot of experience there. Don't you think. It's fine because what he passes on to others will make a big difference to their skills
You're missing the point. I am saying that it is an over-qualification to expect to have to do the practical to be able to teach the theory of a lesser exam.
You have also exemplified the other point that it is those with the money who can do it. This causes exclusion and does not give us the best teachers.
Because of our backgrounds we would not describe sailing, seamanship, navigation particularly challenging. The sextant is a bit heavy! We can and do teach it to other people though.
You are right it's not compulsory - yet.
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graham
regular
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 5956
Loc: South Wales
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I can understand your frustration at the system that requires you to have YM practical when you only wish to teach theory.
i do think that a person with considerable practical experience will make a better all round instructor.
The "experienced person" I referred to in the earlier answer to you was the YM examiner who will have done a lot more than a weeks course. I have a feeling you know that allready .
Im not missing the point,I hear what you say but dont agree with you.
Not worth us debating it too much I doubt the decision makers at the RYA will be much influenced by our little forum. 
good Luck
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http://banjocoronado25.blogspot.com/
All Hardwood used in Banjos restoration comes from sustainable sources. Usually the Boat Club Skip :-)
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Damo
regular
Reged: 22/02/2005
Posts: 2614
Loc: k keeper,Portishead
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"I am saying that it is an over-qualification to expect to have to do the practical to be able to teach the theory of a lesser exam."
I wasn't going to get involved, but I would like to take issue with this point. My background is in mountaineering and I am a qualified climbing instructor, and when teaching at novice level I think it is very dangerous if the instructor has not been able to demonstrate that they have reached a certain degree of practical knowledge, and have enough experience. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, as we all know, even in the theoretical aspects of an activity.
I have sometimes cringed when hearing a well-meaning but "poorly qualified" instructor saying stuff like "This is what you must do when such-and-such happens" or "You should always do this" or "This is the way you must always tie a knot" etc etc. A teacher with good experience would be able to point out why sometimes an alternative might be better, and be able to give examples from their own history.
I have been in an RYA classroom when the instructor said "An anchor rode should have a scope of 4:1", and when I pointed out that this would depend on numerous factors, especially in the Bristol Channel, he said that that was beyond the scope of that level of course. Fair enough I suppose, but not to make clear that it merited further study, and wasn't a fixed rule, was remiss of him IMO.
The main point I am trying to get across is that a well-meaning instructor MAY not have the requisite experience to know when their advice is inadequate, and the RYA is quite right to require someone to be able to demonstrate their practical knowledge at a higher level. There is nothing to stop someone teaching others, but in the name of the RYA you must play by their rules.
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Never be at a loose end with the Yosemite bowline 
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tangomoon
regular
Reged: 18/10/2004
Posts: 1427
Loc: SW
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The RYA are aware 'over-qualification' has been a problem to them in the past.
You may have had an 'experienced' person in mind', I only had the person who could take a 7 day course and be qualified as per the RYA stance that you have put forward.
Good sailing
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tangomoon
regular
Reged: 18/10/2004
Posts: 1427
Loc: SW
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Knew you would get involved 
Bit unfair ref RYA chap saying 4 to 1 They only carry out RYA instructions. human error is not accounted for only that those going to sea must use their heads even after an RYA course that gives them an excellent insight into what they have to do. It is however only an insight like your mountaineering instruction. it is ony when you are out there or in your case up there that you can hope to use what you have ben taught. Sometimes teachers do put it over badly for what ever reason but you're the one with the responsibility and what ever happens you have to drop anchor and wait to see if it drags then lengthen the rode if it does or you may be too close to shore or the guy next door or the tide is dropping further than you thought. It's not nannying because what happens to you when you're doing the stuff is not always going to be covered by what you were told in the class room. You will however know which knots to tie or try  IF you (whoever) listened.
I would guess that the majority of boaters, all kinds, went out there with little knowledge but muddled through getting the experience in as they went. We know numerous people who have been sailing for donkey's years who have only just decided to do a course in navigation or don't want to and rely on chart plotter. One has, after 25years, oly just learned that you should sail by tell-tales for best performance and doesn't know how to navigate but follows the arrow on his GPS! He has survived thus far like many others! Some texhing has to be better than no teaching and the more that are taught the better. if it's affordable they will take the course, if not they don't. It was an elitist hobby, now a huge number can afford the boat but won't or can't afford the RYA course. I'm sure plans are afoot and hope they can be given a nudge.
Hey! I just thought. i knew a chap in Dorset years ago. he was 72 or so I think. Joined the RAF les than 6 weeks training - up in a Spitfire. Come on chaps. Best of British Let's not promulgate the nanny state (EU) straight cucumbers and all that!
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mrbloto
regular
Reged: 31/12/2007
Posts: 192
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wether your glass is half full or half empty, the one thing you have to get across is that common sense preveils, boating can be avery dangerous pastime, especially in this channel. seamanship is not an exact science you must always err on the safety factor which somebody who has just passed an exam dont do. look at the mortality rate of young drivers
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tangomoon
regular
Reged: 18/10/2004
Posts: 1427
Loc: SW
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Thanks for the reply
That mortality rate you refer to is much lower than the number of pedestrians killed by the older much older (more experienced?) drivers in the 30s and 40s.
Boating has a wonderful safety record. I do believe though that the highest call-out for the RNLI ref boats is for 'older' people. The young do well and must be encouraged to push the boundaries. Their capabilities are vast when given direction.
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