Captainslarty
regular
Reged: 12/08/2007
Posts: 2012
Loc: Currently La Coruna Spain
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Just wondered what you thought.....
In the great scheme of all the subjects one needs to know and have skills in, how important is the actual level of competence re sailing skills to the whole thing. ?? personally I think too many spend too much time , money and worry on RYA type courses and YOTTMEISTER certs etc than on the other necessities..
For example..
Electrical skills
Plumbing skills
Engine repair and maintenance skills
Hull n Deck repairs and leak proofing
Close quarter boat handling (not done on rya courses in a relistic way)
General carpentry
Material skills (as in SEWING)
Budgetry control and awareness
Provisioning and stowage.
etc etc etc
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PM me for info re SSB's etc. Bought, sold, repaired, fitted and optimised.
Edited by Captainslarty (19/04/2008 11:07)
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jimbaerselman
regular
Reged: 18/04/2006
Posts: 1760
Loc: Greece in Summer, Southampton ...
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How aout deleting a couple of these? Just slect the edit option
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Jim Baerselman
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/ or Google 'jimb sail'
Compares the Cruising areas of Europe
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Captainslarty
regular
Reged: 12/08/2007
Posts: 2012
Loc: Currently La Coruna Spain
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Hi Jim, SOME of us ppor sods have inet connections up n down like a Bride's nighty...
Done, eventually.. 
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PM me for info re SSB's etc. Bought, sold, repaired, fitted and optimised.
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Damo
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Reged: 22/02/2005
Posts: 2905
Loc: k keeper,Portishead
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A bit hard to answer - if you are mainly just living aboard then sailing skills are a minor part of the skills you need. If cruising then probably the most important.
But I agree that if you don't know your way around the boat systems, then it doesn't matter how good a sailor you are if you can't go anywhere until something is fixed.
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Never be at a loose end with the Yosemite bowline 
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Grehan
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Reged: 11/06/2001
Posts: 1168
Loc: Inland France
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I'm confused, is this the Real Quiz or merely the unsubstantiated cloned rumour of the Real Quiz?
I shall check with www.snopes.com/horrors/duplicatedquizes.asp and try to find out the Truth.
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___ Grehan :: French Waterways information ___
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Damo
regular
Reged: 22/02/2005
Posts: 2905
Loc: k keeper,Portishead
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According to a close friend of mine, it is an actual quiz that has actually happened. The questions have been translated from Romanian. 
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Never be at a loose end with the Yosemite bowline
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grumpygit
regular
Reged: 29/07/2007
Posts: 44
Loc: York, England
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Basic sailing course's are ok me thinks, say up to Day Skipper. A compulsory license in the UK like the ICC might be a good thing, learn the basics and safety skills and the rest will come with experience. If anyone is not a practical type of person probably they would do better with a caravan. if it ain't there in the first place you can't put it there ! Some people collect RYA certs like boy scout badges, it doe's not mean they are good or poor sailors, some of them just think they are superior. If anybody just want's to sit in a Med Marina for 6 mths getting ratted, who gives a damn, they probably still call lines, ropes and think sheets are for the bed ! (sorry, bunk ) The main is to go out there and enjoy. If it's left to Brown & Co the buggers would tax a smile.
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5973
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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Joe,
Sorry, but it's a daft question and poll.
Sailing skills appropriate to the passage being attempted are VITAL before leaving harbour - i.e. 100%. That doesn't mean that you have to gain those skills in a school, passed an exam or hold a certificate (most ICCs originally came on the nod from the sec of a yacht club).
There is no absolute need to have plumbing skills, or carpentry skills as long as you can cope in an emergency as you can pay a professional. There is no need to have DIY paramedic skills, dentistry skills, cooking skills, either, but maybe they help at times?
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My daily blog on the current financial crisis is at:- http://davidscompass.blogspot.com No PMs for now ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com
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Cloadasmum
regular
Reged: 11/03/2007
Posts: 35
Loc: York, England
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Looks like Lemain has loads of dosh to pay these people with the skills 
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Dockmaster
regular
Reged: 18/03/2008
Posts: 149
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If we where all the same it would be a very boring world some people are practical some are not when I left I only new the basics but if you have to you learn quick and there is no sustitute for the real thing wether it be sailing or boat repairs .
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I could have done anything if I'd had the talent !
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grumpygit
regular
Reged: 29/07/2007
Posts: 44
Loc: York, England
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Lemain
Sorry but for a liveaboard I would think that is essential that the Skipper knows his boat, how it works and be quite able to make repairs, unless he or she has ample funds !
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Bajansailor
regular
Reged: 27/12/2004
Posts: 2293
Loc: Barbados (East coast)
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Quite a few years ago now I met an American yacht here who had just crossed the Atlantic - she was equipped then with every conceivable hydraulic, electrical, electronic gizmo and gadget, all of which apparently had a habit of malfunctioning on a regular basis.
The skipper / owner had not a clue about all of these systems, so he had a tame technician who would follow in his wake around the world - this lad was on a much smaller, rather beat up, very simple steel boat, and nowt much ever went wrong on his boat, cos there wasnt much to go wrong...... so he had lots of time available for fixing the Boss's equipment in every port, and he made a decent living out of doing this.
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KellysEye
regular
Reged: 23/07/2006
Posts: 759
Loc: Bonaire
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I don't think RYA qualifications are necessary but experience is absolutely necessary. I voted sailing skills 15% in fact I think it's less than 10%.
You mention other skills needed and ended with etc etc. Just to add a few more: sail repair skills, rigging skills, prep and painting skills, electronic (as well as electrical) skills etc etc. The list is enormous.
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Conachair
regular
Reged: 24/01/2004
Posts: 543
Loc: Canaries
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Have to agree with there Joe about too much emphasis on courses, though I doubt if many cruisers set off without a good basic understanding of how to sail a boat. That would be just silly but you don't need x no. of certs before heading south. Though saying that I was watching a school boat earlier on with some total sailing newbies and for anyone who has never set foot on a boat I think they're a fantastic stepping stone. Wether or not an RYA cert is in any way related to how good a sailor someone is I'm not so sure. But you only really learn along the way anyway, not by collecting certs, same goes for the rest of the skills. Buy an old boat and you'll learn lots about what makes a boat tick, buy a new boat and you'll learn a lot about warrenty issues
Personally I get rather excited by a well stocked ferrateria!
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5973
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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Quote:
Sorry but for a liveaboard I would think that is essential that the Skipper knows his boat, how it works and be quite able to make repairs, unless he or she has ample funds !
I know plenty of liveaboards who have most of the word done for them, or get friends to help them as they sail round (lots do that, and I often help folks who are struggling, in anchorages, as do many others who 'can').
I know others who would spend far less on maintenance if they paid a pro to do it for them as they don't have the skills or talent to do it themselves. Why should a yachtie who is a pro singer, cook, journalist, photographer, gardener, accountant, lawyer (as examples) be made to feel that they need to be able to service an engine (other than the very basics you teach in a few hours in a classroom)? Or do decent GRP and gelcoat repairs, and carpentry? They don't NEED to do that work as long as they can pay for it to be done. As I said earlier, a lot of the work that owners do themselves is utter crap and ends up costing more as well as being a real safety issue.
On the other hand, if you skipper a yacht then you HAVE to be 100% fit for all of the aspects of skippering and crewing that are needed for whatever passage you attempt, or you will be a danger to yourself and your crew/passengers/rescuers.
The question was "How important are sailing skills for the liveaboard?" and I suggest that they are vital while the DIY aspects are entirely voluntary other than emergency repairs at sea.
It's also vital to have ample funds, of course, but you only need ample for the proposed lifestyle
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My daily blog on the current financial crisis is at:- http://davidscompass.blogspot.com No PMs for now ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com
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Skents
regular
Reged: 18/01/2005
Posts: 204
Loc: SW UK
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Personally I would say it depends on whether you are talking about "sailing skills" or "recognised sailing skills" - two entirely different issues.
If you mean someone's level of seamanship (whether that is measured by the RYA or not) then I would say it is really at the heart of the issue. Let's face it - there really isn't much point in being a liveaboard unless you like sailing. You can travel the world in a campervan or rent apartments here and there and see the world perfectly happily.
Most of us accept the drawbacks of liveaboard life for one reason - we love travelling by boat and that means we like sailing our boats. We may not be America's Cup trimmers or tacticians but we like to sail.
It's certainly true that unless you are wealthy you really do need to be able to sort out your boat and her gear or alternatively live without some of the tempting gizmos but, at the end of the day, if you can't sail your boat with confidence you won't enjoy sailing and if you don't enjoy sailing then there's probably not much point in being a liveaboard.
Houses have been beautifully designed to make nice homes for humans....boats were made to sail - the accommodation will always be secondary. It makes no sense to accept the limitations of boat life unless you want to exploit its advantages.
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www.theiguana.co.uk
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LadyJessie
regular
Reged: 21/11/2006
Posts: 1150
Loc: the Med
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That is a 'duff' question and cannot be replied to as stated; the response would be of no value. Delete the word 'recognised' and you might have a valid question. Sailing skills for a liveaboard is 100% important when you are on passage. (This excludes the 'liveaboards' that are permanently moored in Brighton marina). But it does not matter how you acquired those skills; an RYA course and quals could be very good, just as real life experience will also teach you what you need to know if you pay attention.
Then, when you have reached your destination, yes a practical ability to do your own maintenance will be very useful as well. They are not mutually exclusive, as you infer.
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KellysEye
regular
Reged: 23/07/2006
Posts: 759
Loc: Bonaire
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As ever it depends what sort of sailing you do. Those who spend all their time in first world countries, with marine facilities and chandlers nearby, and who have the money, can get away with sailig skills and little else.
Long distance boats get off the beaten track where there are no chandlers, no marine facilities, nobody even knows what a watermaker is (for example) and in some places there is absolutely nothing at all. These people (including us) need the skills listed or we could be in deep trouble (and don't forget the spare parts).
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Dockmaster
regular
Reged: 18/03/2008
Posts: 149
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There is only one way to learn - through experience and a good way to get experience is to buy a boat and live on it when things go wrong either sailing or boat issues which they will you learn from the experience - none of us know everything and we are all learning all the time !
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I could have done anything if I'd had the talent !
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AndrewB
regular
Reged: 07/06/2001
Posts: 3482
Loc: Cruising California
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So, you don't rate sailing skills, eh Captainslarty? Keep well away from me please. I've had too much trouble already sharing anchorages with know-nothings who drag down on me or ding me on the way out. Of course they are uninsured - who in their right mind would cover a guy with no sailing skills?
I don't care whether you have the piece of paper, but you'd better be up to Yachtmaster standard for successful long distance cruising. Because first and foremost you are out there sailing. Being able to fix your engine, electrics, plumbing, electronics etc is useful but you can and ought to be able to get by without.
(BTW I don't understand the implication about unrealistic close-quarter skills taught on RYA courses. Mine taught very realistic skills - doing things I'd never dare try on purpose in my own boat).
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Dockmaster
regular
Reged: 18/03/2008
Posts: 149
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Imagine how good it must be to be the perfect sailor who never makes a mistake or does anything wrong !!!!!!!
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I could have done anything if I'd had the talent !
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KellysEye
regular
Reged: 23/07/2006
Posts: 759
Loc: Bonaire
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>There is only one way to learn - through experience and a good way to get experience is to buy a boat and live on it when things go wrong either sailing or boat issues which they will you learn from the experience - none of us know everything and we are all learning all the time !
Entirely agree, we've never stopped learning. On the premise it's not a good idea to start learning when you are 1,400 miles from any land, we spent two years taking boat systems apart during the refit so we knew the basics before we left.
Also, on another comment, I don't think anybody (even Captainslarty) is saying we don't need sailing skills, it's more what percentage sailing skills are of the overall skills needed. At least that's how I read it, I could be wrong.
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Micky
regular
Reged: 27/09/2004
Posts: 615
Loc: UK
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You don't need any skills at all. I see hundreds of sailing boats being sailed without any skill, also Lot's of Mobo's but there seems to be a lot less Mobo's on the water, so the rag fliers take first place in numbers.
All those with no skill seem to try and keep out of each others way, unlike all them others with the so called cert's, that stick to the rules and Regs and think just because they are right, they can simply stick to their course and make no attempt to get over...Middle finger Salute to them.
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CBT
regular
Reged: 16/02/2005
Posts: 263
Loc: UK
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Captainslarty - Your post is an interesting one; but let me ask you something in return. Do you object to training courses pers se? Do you have a problem with RYA courses in particular? Do you have any problems with the MCA standards of seamanship set for the YM examinations and related certificate of competence? Have you had a bad ( or otherwise ) experience with any of these?
Like many others who have posted, my view is that 'seamanship' in its widest interpretation is what is important to any sailor - liveaboard or not. The practical skills you list are all contributory to a satisfactory way of managing your yacht. Some of them can even be acquired by attending training courses!! I do not see any of them as competing with seamanship or sailing skills. As one poster has already said - these skills are not mutually exclusive.
It is easy, but foolish to denigrate certificates of competence as it is not the certificates themselves that count; but it is the work and effort put into achieving them that counts. It is also foolish to believe that certificated training is the only way to acquire practical experience; but for many it is the best and even only way they can achieve it
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ribrage
regular
Reged: 25/06/2006
Posts: 232
Loc: south coast
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seen all sorts on the mud banks and rocks some with tickets and some without, personally as i got more interested and gained more experience I took the appropriate qualification.
I dont think the FASTRACK thing is at all a good idea, seems like a false sense of security to me.
as a live aboard on a budget understanding everything about the boat is essential
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Mess with me .... and the fender gets it !
www.absoluteaqua.co.uk
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Abigail
regular
Reged: 06/10/2002
Posts: 645
Loc: South of France
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I agree with the principle that what distinguishes liveaboard cruising from land travelling is moving about in a boat - so doing that well is pretty essential. The other skills are important if you are on a budget (though I also agree that some of our own repairs are more expensive and less safe than paying someone with the knowledge!) - or if you're off the beaten.
But I get really fed up with the idea that unless you/your crew can muster the full panoply of non-sailing skills that a medium size boatyard could provide you've no business to be cruising. It's just another form of snobbery and way to put people off. We all get out here in our own way.
On the courses - well I played with dinghies as a kid but didn't step on a sailing boat for 20 years. I've found the courses invaluable as a way to learning all sorts of skills, particularly navigation. I would not have learnt those skills nearly as well or as fast by teaching myself and would have taken even more silly risks than I did in my first couple of years of boat ownership.
By the way (usually shown as BTW) - putting capitals into emails is usually seen as a way of shouting at your addressees. So please lay off the caps button except for acronyms.
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Sarah & Pip
s/v Roaring Girl
www.sailblogs.com/member/roaringgirl
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Captainslarty
regular
Reged: 12/08/2007
Posts: 2012
Loc: Currently La Coruna Spain
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Hi guys, some very interesting responses..... 
I think the rya quals are fine, to a certain degree, but there comes a time you need to learn on your own. I DO believe too many spend far too much time (If in search of liveaboard cruising life) doinf such courses, but wont, for instance, attend an evening class in electrical basics, plumbing, grp work (West systems do a reasonable value one day course)...
First aid, as taught on the 'recognised' courses is very very basic..
Engines and gearboxes, one day course on how to bleed the darn thing and change an impellor is fine, but lots more can be learned.. Some of us have many of these skills, some of us dont, IF you have the money to PAY, then its ok in a marina.. not much good out at sea though........................
Many have quoted 'seamanship' well, yes, must agree, however, seamanship covers the management of the WHOLE boat, if its you n yer mate, the skills must be there at some level somewhere, otherwise the seamanship is not being practiced.
Look at it another way... if you had to assign a value (totalling 100 percent) to the various skills.. WHERE does the recongnised sailing certs etc come into play ?... If the sailing bit is worth, say, 20% of the 100, then what percentage is a good understanding of the diesel engine, have the right tools, knowing how to use them etc lay ??..
What about electronics / electrical, the ability to do more than change a fuse ??.
What a bout understanding and using communications mediums ?.. the list goes on.
I submit that someone who can 'sail' to say a YM level without the other skills to call on is not practicing good seamanship..
Captn's
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PM me for info re SSB's etc. Bought, sold, repaired, fitted and optimised.
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CBT
regular
Reged: 16/02/2005
Posts: 263
Loc: UK
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Backatcha Cap'n Slarty. a glimmer of common ground in your last message methinks. Seamanship is the key - which is to be personally able to handle and manage your yacht in all conditions and to a standard which keeps you and everyone aboard safe. That would be for me the wisdom to know what needs to be done and if there is no -one else to help, to be able to do it. A good skipper would also be quite uninhibited about using others' skills to acheive the aim. If there is a doctor aboard - no need tp deploy your own first aid mangllng!!
What 'decent' and sensible person would burst on to the scene waving their certificates and paper qualifications in the air. None that I know. It is what we can do that counts; but that is no reason to decry the certs etc and the training which produced them. All training and any documentary evidence related to it is not an end in itself; but merely a beginning of a learning process which involves putting things into practice and getting better at them.
I think your model of a 100% 'receptacle' into which you pour a share of each skill and where more of one means less of another is a misguided one.
I know lots of brilliant skippers and sailors who are not experts in all of the skills you list; but I would go to sea with them any time.
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Grehan
regular
Reged: 11/06/2001
Posts: 1168
Loc: Inland France
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Booyakasha!
Whatever their practical and learning value (definitely some) we really enjoyed the courses we did - Yachtmaster, Coastal, Day, Diesel, VHF, Dinghy, all that jazz. And think they have value, just for that pleasure.
This is an unashamed plug and recommendation for our old Alma Mater, |
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