Bob_Newbury
new user
Reged: 08/03/2008
Posts: 7
Loc: Wandering around the Med (curr...
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We're about to leave Malta to spend the summer in Greece, having spent two seasons pottering down from Jersey. It seems as if we'll be spending a lot more time at anchor than we have previously (good!) and that marinas and other sources of 'leccy are fairly sparse.
We have a chance of buying a 1Kw genset (4 stroke) at a good price. Any views on whether it's worth getting one? We're fairly heavy on juice but we have an adverc as well as a solar panel and an aero6gen.
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jamesmar
regular
Reged: 23/10/2004
Posts: 1055
Loc: Me ..west of Scotland..Boat Gr...
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No longer true that there are sparse electricity points. Many town quays are now equipped and it is reasonably cheap. We spend spring and autumn in Greece,and find that the combination of a 85W panel,engine /adverc and occasional hook up will comfortably keep the batteries topped up. If the genny is cheap enough though,it would be a useful addition if as you say you are power hungry. Do you have the space to store it ?
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5954
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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We are power-hungry, we have 370W solar and a 6kW diesel genny - but we also have a watermaker and like plenty of water, and run laptops and TVs as much as we please. A genny will make your lives much more comfortable but when it comes to portables, storage space, petrol storage and noise are key issues.
The Honda ones are very quiet and you don't want a noisy cheap genny rattling away in an anchorage - you and your neighbours will get very upset. Is 1kW big enough for you? Most vacuum cleaners take more than 1kW and most 1kW gennys are not rated for 1kW continuous - probably around 700W continuous. How big is your battery charger - 80A takes about 1kW at full output. A water heater will draw 750W upwards. A microwave will take well over 1kW. A Foreman grill or equivalent takes over 1kW as does, maybe, your toaster.
The 2kW Honda would be a better buy, I think, then you will be able to run every appliance on board albeit not at the same time. An ammeter will help greatly when running the genny to decide how to load it, especially until you get a handle on the draw of each item.
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My daily blog on the current financial crisis is at:- http://davidscompass.blogspot.com No PMs for now ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com
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LadyJessie
regular
Reged: 21/11/2006
Posts: 1150
Loc: the Med
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My answer to your question would a resolute: absolutely no way!. Go solar panels; reliable and almost maintenance free. The dream piece of kit on a boat. Kyocera is supposed to be the best technology at this point in time. Will usually power everything on your boat, if you don't have 'the Mother of all aircon units'.
I have a Fischer Panda 4.5 and it is the biggest source of problems I have aboard, bar none. It is extremely heavy on maintenance and it breaks down almost all the time. Now this is clearly due in part to a lack of maintenance of the previous owner and it has corrosion problems. But the source of most of those problems are actually due to a crap design, not necessarily lack of tlc. Let me just give you one example (of a long, long list) of design problems of this genset:
You are expected to change oil and clean the filter every 50 hrs of operation. The oil filter (or actually a strainer) sits underneath the unit. Therefore, to clean the filter you have to first lift up the genset. This is operation is described in detail in the manual; the order in which you have to detach all the electric cables and the cooling water hoses before you lift up the unit. Now, we are talking about a 110 kilos unit that is usually deployed in a very cramped space on a boat. It cannot easily be 'lifted up'. You would think that the genius that wrote that part of the manual (in normal German 'grundlichkeit') would have stopped and thought: 'hang on a minute; that does not sound very smart. Maybe we should re-engineer this thing so that an oil change will be a bit easier?' But noooooo; this is an engineering equivalent to the Edsel.
If you get the idea that I do not like Fischer Panda; you are correct. Get solar panels and enjoy life.
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Barry_n_Janet
regular
Reged: 11/01/2005
Posts: 192
Loc: UK S. Coast after 5 years away...
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Hiya Bob.
We chose to use the inboard engine and have fitted an extra alternator + smart regulator so we get loadsa juice. An hour every other day does for us. The 60W solar panel that I fitted is in such a ineffective position (under the boom) it offers little. Keep thinking about a pole for the thing but as we are now heading North into those sunless lands I might just forget it.
Looking forwards to summer in the Ria's so if you anchor near me then take notice I run the engine periodically.
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Barry & Janet (SY Ruby Tuesday)
Check out our liveaboard travels on www.barryandjanet.co.uk
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saltwater_gypsy
regular
Reged: 13/01/2008
Posts: 458
Loc: Sardinia till April
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Returning to the original question------YES. A 1kw generator is a cost effective way of keeping the batteries topped up: especially as you also have wind power and some solar already.
Consider the comparative cost of 1kw of solar panels which of course only work in daylight hours and I don't think its a hard decision.
You will be able to sell it on easily if you find that its a mistake!!!
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"Cruising is boat maintenance in paradise"
Seastream 43: www.saltwatergypsy.com
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn14/hectou/Saltwatergypsythree.jpg
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twoeasy
regular
Reged: 15/03/2006
Posts: 25
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hi bob my 1kv 2stroke gen will not power my charger/inverter as it needs up to 50 amps and it seems that the power upsets the signwave so the charger trips we use the air x and a 90 watt solar panel it seems to work
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DaiB
regular
Reged: 01/10/2001
Posts: 71
Loc: SE England
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If you do get a gen set I would advise to cancel out Fisher Panda, I agree totally with "Lady Jessie", my gen set though 15 years old has only done 350 hours. Since I have had it, 10 years, every season I have had some problem with it, normally not easily fixed. At present it is away for rewind as the generator end burnt out. In fact this one item has had more repairs to it than all the other gear on the boat combined. Seriously considering removing it all together and giving it the deep six!
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5954
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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I am terrified to say this but I reckon that if I don't, my FP 6kW will take it's revenge on me. Mine was fitted (professionally) by the previous owner in 1999 and he took the boat round the world. We have 1230 hours on the genset and no major repairs so far (fingers crossed). We use it for around 4 hours a day once we leave our winter berth and it's fine. FP state oil changes at 100 hours and filter at 500 hours although I change filters more frequently than that. I am thinking of going over to synthetic oil which should give me 200 hrs between oil changes. My FP is pretty easy to carry out oil changes on. The filter is a knack - but what isn't a knack on a boat? It is easy enough with a nappy in place to catch the spills and has a drain hose that can reach an empty oil can for draining oil. I never have any starting problems. I have had two impellers go in quick succession but those small Jabscos all suffer from that - it happens and it is hardly a FP issue.
Please, please, nice generator, be good to me this season; I am sticking up for you, not tempting fate!
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My daily blog on the current financial crisis is at:- http://davidscompass.blogspot.com No PMs for now ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com
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Happydaze
regular
Reged: 21/01/2008
Posts: 31
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Hi Bob, I got Carol a nice genny for Christmas 4 years ago and we have never used it, the solar panels provide all we need for the summers. And spoiling everyone's peace and quite in an anchorage by running a genny is the pits.
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roly_voya
regular
Reged: 05/02/2004
Posts: 1049
Loc: Pembrokeshire Wales
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How big a disaster would it be if, say the alternator blew. Would you switch to oil lamps etc & carry on cruising, be ok to head straight for the nearest port even if that was a few days away, have to get an engeneer out to the boat to fix the problem before going anywhere. If you are no 1 a back up geny is probably not worth the space but anywhwere near 3 and its money well spent.
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Englander
regular
Reged: 07/09/2001
Posts: 15311
Loc: Barcelona/Bollyolics
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OK,
I also have a FP 4.5kw genny, yes the early ones were the pits, they used raw water cooling for the engine and genny, (no heat exchanger) serious corrosion was the result, I had one of these, ingested its own cooling water, junk! after 200 hours.
They then went to raw water for the genny, fresh water/heat exchanger for the engine, they still had problems, not as bad, but still there.
They then changed the insulation on the genny windings to hign temp and went all fresh water/heat exchanger cooling, this is the unit I have now.
I have had the windings go on mine, at 1200 hours, still not very good. FP said they had some problems with early all fresh cooled windings (insulation), now solved and they paid for the new windings.
The unit has now 2500 hours on it and has had only a problem with two relays blowing, but they were cheap and easy to replace.
I do change my oil every 100 hours and the strainer every 500, doesnt need cleaning every 50! according to the manual anyway.
There is a handy little pipe fitted, which allows the oil to be drained into a can, without mess.
The unit is quiet and not been a problem for three years (fingers firmly crossed!!)and it gets well used.
I now have a back up genny installed, a 3.6 kw, air cooled mase diesel, just incase, as the boat is reliant on mains for water maker, washing machine and charging my 550ah @24v main battery bank, along with main engines and alternator/adverc etc.
I also have 160watts at 24v (4 x 80w @12v), solars, which provide all of the daytime power and help charge the batteries. I also have AC, but only use this when shore power is available, dont normally need it at anchor with wind scoops etc.
I will be fitting a 150 amp alternator to one of the mains and already have a 3kw pure sine wave inverter, which will allow watermaking when the engine is running. I tend to be belt/braces/piece of string/safety pin, type of fella!
So do you need a genny, I would say yes, makes life a bit easier, especially a small quiet four stroke, you can run it sometime during the day and not disturb peeps. I would go for a 2kw, which normally gives 1.7kw continuous.
Phew, just about the longest post I've ever made!! 
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LadyJessie
regular
Reged: 21/11/2006
Posts: 1150
Loc: the Med
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My vote would still be for solar panels. Nobody ever had to write such a long post about problems with those.
Thanks for your input, Englander. Yes, I think I must have one of the early units but FP has been seriously un-cooperative in admitting any design faults with mine although they are blatantly obvious (IMHO). Interesting to note that your manual has a different oil change schedule. In reality I now clean the strainer probably less frequent than 500 hrs due to its position, but I will feel less bad about it now.
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trouville
regular
Reged: 10/06/2004
Posts: 2847
Loc: crusing with an Arpège
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Indeed solar panels provide more than enough power providing you have the space.On the boat before the last one i bought a portable generator cost then 900,000 Lira
I never used it!
I did of course to sand the hull or varnish,but could have done those jobs better by hand.
Another time i ran out of wind about a mile from the anchorage.the engine start batteries were flat??i ran the gen with a charger.After some time about 5 minuets,i took the jump leads and started from the service batteries.
I found my solar panel charging the start batteries had a burnt out blocking diod what ever as it was out of service the panel stopped charging when a shadow fell on it that fixed all was well
The most useful part of owneing a not very quite generator was to maintain some quality of life in port.When a German boat,in general,would tie up beside me and run its generator to watch TV i would start mine
In those days(the 90s) there were free places without power.
Today a small quite generator is useful to run an SSB at full power with voice,even with a large 110 amphr battery my signal soon breaks up and i have to reduce power down to about 30/40w.Whith a gen you can chat all day!
Today no need.Theres the 11w auto "portable" phone and SSBs only used for data links
If your staying around the med today you wont need a genset then of course if you have the room the cash and your not aboard its fun to buy.
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liveaboard
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Troutbridge
regular
Reged: 19/03/2007
Posts: 333
Loc: Cruising, mon, cruising
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I think I'd be tempted to wait and see how it goes. On my last boat I had a genset which was wonderful whilst it worked (seemingly a common problem). On my present boat I have 3X68W & 2X 125W solar panels, a towed genny (Ampair) which converts to a wind generator & a 1.5Kw invertor. I'm hoping with that lot I'll be OK, although I anticipate having to run one of the engines when it comes to the watermaker (I have a cat, 2 x donks). I thought about a portable genny, but in the end reckoned that the money I spent buying one would pay for an awful lot of diesel for one of the engines. The only slight snag with my set up is I'm possibly a bit short on AC power (but all of the boat systems are 12V ~ done deliberately) if I want to use power tools and of course a diesel engine should be run under load and I don't think an adequate load is an alternator!
OOPS, just seen that's what you've decided to do anyway. Good decision that man!
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Some see the glass as half full, some see it as half empty. I see it as too damn small.
http:/blog.mailasail.com/troutbridge
Edited by Troutbridge (22/04/2008 14:21)
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TigaWave
regular
Reged: 17/12/2004
Posts: 1920
Loc: Buckland Monachorum
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Hi Bob,
In my experience a gen set was never needed, we had a towed/wind gen and were never short of power. We didn't have a water maker or aircon.
I've lived aboard in the Med, Europe and Caribbean. The Carib was better for power as the wind was more consistant, for the Med I'd get solar panels next time. We didn't have a micro wave or telly but the fridge was always very cold.
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www.H4Marine.com
www.sailonline.org www.sailport.se
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farquart
regular
Reged: 26/10/2003
Posts: 200
Loc: POOLE
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Another vote for solar panels. I remember a german boat anchored near us in Menorca, had his generater runing dawn till dusk. Lots of noise not very popular with the other boats. As others have said less hassle with solar pannels, just make sure you buy big enough.
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Whole of market mortgage advice
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phlim
regular
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 648
Loc: Channel Islands
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Yes provided you have the capability to maintain it properly, and enough space.
Don't buy one because someone has offered you a good deal, buy one because you have done the sums on your cruising style and power requirements. Buy one of adequate size and install it properly (ie with underwater cooling outlet and plenty of sound insulation) then you can use it in anchorages. I opted for air-cooled alternator with f/w cooled engine. I wanted more than adequate power for appliances (and to run a welding set). I was fortunate to be able to do it all myself. My gen runs about 500 hrs a year and touch wood I have only had one failure due to pump pulley collapse. I already have a small inverter 800 W for laptop etc.
However, I am planning to install solar panels this year as part of my usual plan a/b/c approach; I will also go for a wind gen in due course. Well, sun and wind are free!
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Rgds
Phil
Dream as if you'll live forever..
Live as if you'll die today..
James Dean
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fiasco
regular
Reged: 09/08/2007
Posts: 49
Loc: S.W.France
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Solar panels, Genny why not have both? we too are power hungry, we have a dometic 2.5 kw an 85w solar panel two 110Ah batteries and a 1.8kw inverter, we can stay off shore power for weeks!
Fiasco
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Don't take life so seriously,...it's not permanent!
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5954
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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Very small batteries given the rest of the kit?
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My daily blog on the current financial crisis is at:- http://davidscompass.blogspot.com No PMs for now ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com
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demonboy
regular
Reged: 11/10/2004
Posts: 782
Loc: Think bird eaten at Christmas
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Quote:
We chose to use the inboard engine and have fitted an extra alternator + smart regulator so we get loadsa juice. An hour every other day does for us.
I was told NOT to run your engine for a sustained period of time unless you are in gear. Running it in neutral for an hour a day is not advisable, but I'm not clever or educated enough to tell you why!
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Follow The Boat Log: Autumn Log & Through The Porthole Interview, 2008
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5954
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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Quote:
I was told NOT to run your engine for a sustained period of time unless you are in gear. Running it in neutral for an hour a day is not advisable, but I'm not clever or educated enough to tell you why!
I agree. You replied to me but the post you quoted was from barry and janet. It's best not to run an engine on very light load (say less than 10% of the engine's rated output) for prolonged periods or the the bores can become glazed and rings stuck, resulting in loss of compression, poor starting, poor economy and smoky exhaust.
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My daily blog on the current financial crisis is at:- http://davidscompass.blogspot.com No PMs for now ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com
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cliffb
regular
Reged: 09/03/2004
Posts: 378
Loc: SW Scotland
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Quote:
Quote:
I was told NOT to run your engine for a sustained period of time unless you are in gear. Running it in neutral for an hour a day is not advisable, but I'm not clever or educated enough to tell you why!
I agree. You replied to me but the post you quoted was from barry and janet. It's best not to run an engine on very light load (say less than 10% of the engine's rated output) for prolonged periods or the the bores can become glazed and rings stuck, resulting in loss of compression, poor starting, poor economy and smoky exhaust.
Even with two alternators providing the load? Becase in this situation the engine is nothing other than a generator.... and they run for hours at a time.
What about running with low revs. In which case wouldn't the alternator load be sufficient?
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5954
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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Quote:
Even with two alternators providing the load? Because in this situation the engine is nothing other than a generator.... and they run for hours at a time.
What about running with low revs. In which case wouldn't the alternator load be sufficient?
The question is load - an alternator load is fine and every bit as good as a propshaft load but engines don't like to be run for hours at very low output powers. One horsepower is 750W. Target a minimum constant long-term output of 10% then for different sized engines:-
25hp = 18.6 kW 10% - 1.86 kW
50hp = 37.25 kW 10% - 3.73 kW
100hp = 74.50 kW 10% - 7.4 kW
If you were charging batteries and running a watermaker you would not manage to use 1.9 kW for very long, it would drop right off long before the batteries were charged so you would be running at well less than 10% for long periods.
I wouldn't do that to my main engine - I would find some other way round it - in my case I would certainly buy a generator as we are power-hungry
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My daily blog on the current financial crisis is at:- http://davidscompass.blogspot.com No PMs for now ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com
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