LadyJessie
regular
Reged: 21/11/2006
Posts: 1150
Loc: the Med
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This is a question following from the 'genset' thread below, but it really opens up another issue so I think it warrants a different thread:
One of the problems of 'liveaboardness' is that it is often extremely difficult to chase up warranty commitments and you can be left high and dry. The experience related on the 'genset' thread below by Englander and myself of seemingly the same genset with the same sort of problems, but a very different result is very typical of this problem.
When I finally understood what the problem really was with my genset (very well described by Englander on that thread), I was in the Caribbean. Something like 4000 nm's away from the installer and the manufacturer. They both pointed fingers at each other and I was too far away to get them into a room and 'bang heads together' to resolve this issue. I had to make new repairs by 'non-FP' authorised repairshops (not a lot of those in the Carib) just to get going. Then when I returned to the Med to revisit this issue, I found that the local FP 'authorised representatives' actually knows less about this genset than I now do from having to fix it continuously. By now FP disowns any responsibility because 'warranty repairs' have been performed by 'non-authorised' persons. Well, doh. That is what happens on a cruising yacht in remote places; you do not wait for the FP repairman to helicopter in, as if they would..... You try to solve the problem.
In summary, there is a serious issue with manufacturer's responsibility that they can easily muddle for liveaboards cruising the world. The only solution I can think about is tough testing of all equipment onboard before you set off, but it is often difficult to always simulate liveaboard conditions.
This is partially a 'beware' thread for new 'would-be-liveaboards' and a question for present liveaboards: how do you deal with long distance warranty and 'fit-for-purpose' claims?
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Troutbridge
regular
Reged: 19/03/2007
Posts: 333
Loc: Cruising, mon, cruising
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Fit for purpose is a bit of a joke. Fit for a sunny Sunday on the Solent maybe but rarely on a long distance cruiser. I think you'd be hard put to get anywhere with a claim, there's too many variables.
Warranty claims, on the other hand, should (should) be easier to deal with. I have a theory that most suppliers reckon long distance cruisers will just give up, because it becomes too expensive, time consuming and difficult to pursue a warranty claim long distance. That said, if there is no possible get out (for the manufacturer) then I think the warranty would be honoured. The problems come when the manufacturer can claim the organisation that fitted the equipment fitted it incorrectly.
Incidentally, there is a web site called 'F P's are cr*p' (full makers name). Trust me, you're not alone with your problems.
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Some see the glass as half full, some see it as half empty. I see it as too damn small.
http:/blog.mailasail.com/troutbridge
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LadyJessie
regular
Reged: 21/11/2006
Posts: 1150
Loc: the Med
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Troutbridge, thank you very much for that web link! It does make me feel a lot better knowing that I am not alone.
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KellysEye
regular
Reged: 23/07/2006
Posts: 759
Loc: Bonaire
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Unfortunately it's well known FP don't deliver on their guarantees. On the general issue I don't really see the answer unless the item is small enough to courier back to the manufacturer and has sufficient value.
There were a surprising number of Raymarine autopilot computer failures out here. Raymarine said send them back, couriered a new one in return and picked up all costs. That's rare though and many things are too big. We had an instance (in Venezuela) where we had to pay the courier to return the item and the cost was more than the item.
You are right about testing but I wonder if it might be worth a "what kit broke/didn't break on your boat" thread.
I suspect a number of manufacturers would feature highly on the breakages (FP generators, Jabsco toilets and Simrad pilots for a start). And a number would feature highly on the reliability (e.g. for me Hydrovane, Icom, Lofrans) But would the mods allow such a thread if it it includes naming and shaming
Edited by KellysEye (22/04/2008 22:07)
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Grehan
regular
Reged: 11/06/2001
Posts: 1168
Loc: Inland France
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Quote:
But would the mods allow such a thread if it it includes naming and shaming
I can't see why not, YBW is (rightly) tolerant of free comment, honestly (not vindictively) expressed. Members are also sensible enough to take opinions with a certain pinch of salt as well - maybe someone's got an axe to grind over some particular, personal, issue. Fair enough. Over the years here have been any number of individual posts delivering brickbats - and also awarding plaudits - to one product or company or another.
What hasn't happened is a concentrated or consolidated listing of the 'good' and the 'bad'.
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___ Grehan :: French Waterways information ___
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ribrage
regular
Reged: 25/06/2006
Posts: 232
Loc: south coast
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Hi guys
I dont proclaim to be an expert having only lived on board for two years but ive found that trying to lead a "normal" lifestyle on board meant buying specialised equipment that was not made to a high enough standard for frequent use.
The vast majoity of that kit is aimed at the leisure market and is built to a very low standard and seems to last the length of the guarentee or less.
for example: I replaced the cabin lamps with a couple of spotlights and recessed LED's , the LED's have been ... ok (ish) the spotlamps have ALL been replaced (under guarentee) in the last 12 months and now the guarentee is up I will now have to pay to replace them at £26 each.
2 years ago I bought a couple of 240v swivell lamps in sainsburys £5 for the pair I thought .... disposable when they blow they go... theyve been bounced around in a locker with junked piled on top of them and they are still working fine.
These were just cheap purchases compared to your generator issues if I had paid £5000 ish for a fischer panda (oopps did I just say that )generator that failed within months Id be seething !
I have a 2.2kva volt regulated generator built by Suzuki was originally purchased 24 years ago to run an engine tuner in the back of a van. That genny has a squashed fuel tank (used as a seat) has never to my knowledge been serviced has been bashed and trashed day after day commercialy.
It now sits on the foredeck powering the boats 240v on the odd time I need power tools or leccy for the sandwich toaster.... never let me down >> touches wood<<
people just seem to put up with these shoddy goods and high prices. A what to buy website is what we need with no commercial pressure from advertisers and hosted in china to stop the companys closing it down !
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Mess with me .... and the fender gets it !
www.absoluteaqua.co.uk
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Troutbridge
regular
Reged: 19/03/2007
Posts: 333
Loc: Cruising, mon, cruising
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I suppose that in a consumer society, companies make money by producing 'stuff' that needs regularly replacing. If somebody produced a bullet-proof bit of kit, they'd sell a finite number of them then go out of business. Most cruisers have 'stepped-out of' the consumer society, so what we want is the bullet-proof kit that goes on forever at minimal cost!. Almost everything to do with boats (or aircraft) is vastly over-priced. On my (new) boat there is a lot of surface rust in various places where obviously inferior stainless has been used. Interesting to see what the agent says in a week or so when she goes back for some warranty work. To be perfectly fair, so far all faults have been fixed (maker Broadblue, agent Multihull World). Aha, have I started a new thread? Boat was produced in Poland to keep the manufacturing costs down. fair enough, but maybe quality has suffered a bit.
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Some see the glass as half full, some see it as half empty. I see it as too damn small.
http:/blog.mailasail.com/troutbridge
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jimbaerselman
regular
Reged: 18/04/2006
Posts: 1760
Loc: Greece in Summer, Southampton ...
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Quote:
Almost everything to do with boats (or aircraft) is vastly over-priced.
Things to do with aircraft are expensive, but not over-priced. You're talking very high levels of reliability, achieved by using tested and certificated components, with the items themselves inspected and tested . . . you are paying for the cost of reliability.
Boats; ah, yes. Go to the caravan suppliers, diesel engineers whose business is supporting farming equipment . . .
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Jim Baerselman
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/ or Google 'jimb sail'
Compares the Cruising areas of Europe
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5973
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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Quote:
Quote:
But would the mods allow such a thread if it it includes naming and shaming
I can't see why not, YBW is (rightly) tolerant of free comment, honestly (not vindictively) expressed.
A couple of days ago, on an LED thread, I expressed the opinion that one should only buy nav lights that claim to be approved or comply with the requirements. I opined that since a particular company (the one about whom the OP was asking for advice) did not state that it complied with the requirements but had only, according to its website, asked its insurers for their opinion, I would buy elsewhere. Fairly sensible advice, you might say? After all, you ask insurers about insurance, not the technical requirements of marine equipment?
Yesterday, I had a PM from the moderators to say that they had had angry letter from the company about my post and that consequently they had pulled the entire LED thread. The PM to me was a warning.
Tolerance, like freedom and beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
Sad, isn't it?
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My daily blog on the current financial crisis is at:- http://davidscompass.blogspot.com No PMs for now ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com
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Abigail
regular
Reged: 06/10/2002
Posts: 645
Loc: South of France
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I'm v sorry to hear that about the LEDs - hadn't seen the original thread and do not know the name of the company concerned but I would completely agree with the advice. LEDs for nav lights seem to me only acceptable in the light of assurances from the manufacturer. (Are they checking their insurance against litigation or shipwreck?!)
There are a number of times we have named people from whom we've had shoddy services or products - and believe me, the companies have known we were pissed off before we posted here. The only comeback we've ever had was from Square Mile after a litany of problems in Brighton. They emailed me expressing regret that I felt it necessary to make such comments; I referred them to earlier email correspondence and said that I would speak as I find. End of correspondence.
And it is of course true they hide behind distance, even here in Europe. Yes - I'm really going to (at my cost) ship my inverter to Britain from Portugal, for them to probably ship it to Holland then still argue that any problems are user error or something else!! Can't fault the people in Lisbon who came down to Portimao to help us sort it out (but can;t remember the name right now!)
So come on YBW - a piece of unbiased advice or complaint based on direct experience should be permissible and the lawyers should be less scared of the letters.
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Sarah & Pip
s/v Roaring Girl
www.sailblogs.com/member/roaringgirl
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Troutbridge
regular
Reged: 19/03/2007
Posts: 333
Loc: Cruising, mon, cruising
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Jim, I've just retired. I'm now a blue water cruiser. I was an airline pilot, my secondary duty was as a Flight safety officer, I stand by my original comments. 
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Some see the glass as half full, some see it as half empty. I see it as too damn small.
http:/blog.mailasail.com/troutbridge
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Grehan
regular
Reged: 11/06/2001
Posts: 1168
Loc: Inland France
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Quote:
So come on YBW - a piece of unbiased advice or complaint based on direct experience should be permissible and the lawyers should be less scared of the letters.
Yes. Would YBW care to comment publicly? Seems like I might have been mistaken in thinking them sensibly tolerant. Not good. 
Edit - have referred to The Moderator
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___ Grehan :: French Waterways information ___
Edited by Grehan (23/04/2008 17:18)
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KellysEye
regular
Reged: 23/07/2006
Posts: 759
Loc: Bonaire
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>pulled the entire LED thread.
Oh dear. The way I was thinking is that we all want to know what is reliable, what isn't and (most importantly) how to fix something or the workaround. So let me try an example and see if the mods will respond yea/nay.
Jabsco toilets. Poorly designed and cheaply made. Witness main problem is that the top of the pump unit is held on with self tapping screws into plastic. You can only service the pump a few times before the screws chew up the plastic and the top won't seal, requiring a new pump barrel. Workaround: remove screws, drill down right through the top of the unit and fit bolts.
Icom. Quality kit. Only problem is that the wires to the microphone are too thin. If you use the radio a lot eventually one or more wires close to the microphone will fracture. Solution: open the microphone and remove wires with soldering iron. Make a note of where each wire goes, they are different lengths. Cut the wire about three inches back, cut to length, resolder. You can only do this once as you cut back to not far from the wiggly wire.
Lofrans winches. Good quality kit. However they are aluminiun with SS bolts and as such you must strip them down every year or the parts will corrode and freeze together. Spray everything with WD40 and reassemble.
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LadyJessie
regular
Reged: 21/11/2006
Posts: 1150
Loc: the Med
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I really like the idea of a 'name and shame' facility here on this thread. It would be very beneficial but I would not know how to do it. Anybody else have any ideas?
In the meantime I fully agree with the sentiments of KellysEye above, especially the praise for Icom - splendid stuff!
For the rest, I find it interesting that this thread has already mentioned the two manufacturers that in my mind stand on opposite poles of the 'customer support spectrum':
FP has has the worst customer support function and attitude I have ever come across.
On the opposite end; I think Raymarine is the Gold Standard in customer support. Every time I have needed anything from them, it has been delivered promptly and often above expectations. The quality people they have been able to find even in very remote places is extraordinary. Their web page customer support function is the best I have seen from any company in any business. I would now go out of my way to ensure I buy their products, should I ever need any additions/replacements.
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KellysEye
regular
Reged: 23/07/2006
Posts: 759
Loc: Bonaire
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Let's keep going and see what happens...
Simrad wheel pilots. WP30 badly designed and shoddily made. Witness: In order to make any repairs the steering wheel has to be removed first - so if you are at sea you have no steering, unless you have a windvane. Once you have the wheel off and start dismantling the autopilot you come across a set of nylon rollers whose shafts are so weak they are easy to break in the dismantling process. Then you reach the clutch assembly. There is a metal slide with a cut-out in the middle. At each end of the cut-out are nylon fittings held in by screws. The nylon rubbing up against metal eats through the nylon. That exposes the sharp edges of the screw that then eat though the metal slide. The whole clutch disintegrates.
Solution: If they haven't changed the design don't buy one and only buy one if you have a wind vane. If you do buy carry lots of spare rollers and clutch components.
Edited by KellysEye (23/04/2008 21:10)
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LadyJessie
regular
Reged: 21/11/2006
Posts: 1150
Loc: the Med
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Yes, lets keep going... the subject of heads:
Jabsco heads are not designed to last. I worked for ITT for awhile so I have to admit part responsibility for this. The design idea was sound as it was 'it will be cheaper and easier to replace than repair'. Honestly, this was the idea of having 20 pounds worth of replacement stuff that you could just slot in and away you go. Good idea, but unfortunately I don't think Jabsco actually managed to produce a product based on that idea.
I personally have a Raritan head unit. It is now 11 years old and I have changed the joker valve twice. That is it. It just works. Even with the heavy use a liveaboard head gets. The RR type of heads.
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5973
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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Quote:
Let's keep going and see what happens...
I don't suppose that anything will happen unless the company contacts IPC to make a complaint. If you make a derogatory comment about a company (or person) it has every right to respond and take action against you and everyone who publishes your comment for defamation. They won't, unless they are as rich as Croesus or as stupid as Gordon Brown. IPC cannot afford to put a team on each post to discuss the technical and legal merits and about all they can do is to pull the thread (or post) if they get a complaint. I understand the position IPC are in and sympathise - they cannot really take a risk.
I have recently made some very cutting criticism of Standard Horizon here in this forum and Jon Brookes (a senior employee of SH) was present and discussed my criticisms (which, broadly, he seemed to agree with). No complain to IPC, no problem.
An LED manufacturer whose products do not comply with the rules doesn't like it when I draw that fact to the attention of the poster who asked for comments about it. Despite that fact that this information was taken directly from the manufacturer's OWN website, they are 'angry' and demand the thread to be pulled. IPC comply.
Is there a difference? Yes, Standard Horizon listened to comment and criticism and one assumes that the comments stand a good chance of ending up on the Product Manager's desk so next time the product might even be among the best on the market. The LED company doesn't know how to (or cannot afford to, or it would be pointless to) submit their products to a test lab (or even attempt an in-house test) so ask their insurers  and are proud to tell us that  so we don't buy them if we know who they are.
The search function no longer works on this site but the search feature leads you to Google. Sometimes Google caches pages for a considerable time, in case anyone didn't know.
By the way, thinking of threats of defamation, I actually have MET someone who had one of those watermakers that doesn't make water (the tow it behind your boat sort). He said that it did not produce a drop unless take the membrane out! I think that yachties need to know that sort of thing.
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My daily blog on the current financial crisis is at:- http://davidscompass.blogspot.com No PMs for now ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com
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DaiB
regular
Reged: 01/10/2001
Posts: 71
Loc: SE England
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I was one of the "shame" posters about FP. Just to balance the book here is a tale of great service.
12 years ago I obtained a Leatherman Wave. One of the blade lock springs broke last season so I thought I would try to get it fixed under the claim Leatherman make of warranty for life.
2 days ago I received a brand new Leatherman wave as a replacement.
That's service!!!
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KellysEye
regular
Reged: 23/07/2006
Posts: 759
Loc: Bonaire
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>If you make a derogatory comment about a company (or person) it has every right to respond and take action against you
Seems to me that if you don't just rant and call them names but give a detailed explanation of the product's bad (or indeed good) features then they have a right of response and should be less likely to take action.
Here's a mix of bad and good:
Avon dinghies. They may have changed this. We have an inflatable floor. Before we bought it we talked to Avon and said where we were going and that we wanted a dinghy that was all Hypalon. We were assured that the dinghy was all Hypalon. Two years later the floor became sticky - it was PVC. Initially, according to Avon the floor is an accessory (just as it is in a car ;-)) and not subject to guarantee. We argued and Avon couriered a new floor to us in Venezuela. We made a Sunbrella cover for it.
Edited by KellysEye (23/04/2008 23:02)
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LadyJessie
regular
Reged: 21/11/2006
Posts: 1150
Loc: the Med
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the list goes on:
Leatherman Wave: indeed, mine is now 15 years and still a key component aboard without any service requirement. Dream kit!
Timberland deck shoes: I just recently decided that I had to retire my deck shoes. I bought them in 1990 and they were the most expensive deck shoes at the time. They have probably done something like 40,000 miles of sailing and a lot of difficult racing in that time. Calculated as cost per year over 18 years, they have actually been very cheap. Much cheaper than if I had bought several of the much lesser brands over the years. A good example of that it is often cheaper to buy the expensive stuff, over time.... And they have been extremely comfortable, I will miss them....
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SeaVenture
regular
Reged: 04/01/2007
Posts: 83
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Just to name a few who get Excellent Service awards from us: Raritan for its ElectraScan treatment system--replaced it with no hassle; Mermaid Marine for its a/c unit--the first didn't get here in time and they sent another out overnight; Spin-Tec Roller Furling--REALLY fine customer service from them!!; Sailrite sewing machine service. I've already mentioned Fortress for their anchor service in a previous post.
We think our Lavac head is wonderful, and the Tecma Silence has worked beautifully for three years, but we've never had a need to contact anyone about these. Let that remain true!
Our Force 10 4-burner is 30 years old and has only needed some cosmetic replacements in the last few years. For the rest, we'll see as we go. We wish we'd gone with another windlass other than Maxwell, because we've been less than thrilled with both the unit and the service.
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bazonbeleza
regular
Reged: 19/11/2005
Posts: 801
Loc: faro, portugal, & Liverpool fo...
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my Neco auto pilot, 30yrs old built like the proverbial brick s**thouse & heavy on juice, but so reliable. its a shame they dont make them anymore, probably because theres no built in obselenance. wouldn't be without it.
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Nauticat sailors do it in comfort (and carpet slippers)
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danfoley
ybw.com
Reged: 21/09/2006
Posts: 561
Loc: London
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Hi,
I think we're generally very good at allowing the free flow of opinion on these forums, but the simple fact is that web law is still very grey in terms of who is responsible for libelous posts.
If there is a chance that a post is libelous and I am contacted about it then I will take it down - not just because a company has contacted me, but because i believe that they may have a point. I will then consider the matter and take necessary action.
This sort of moderation potentially protects the user as well - previously a YBW user has been taken to court for libel but ended up settling outside for a very large sum of money.
Ultimately it's only a fine line that could see a post considered libelous and I have to make that call a lot – I'm currently discussing an incident with our legal team. As I say I think the forums do offer a free flow of information and a great place to discuss the good and the bad, but sometimes I will intervene because I believe it's in the site's best interests.
Thanks,
Dan
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boats for sale
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5973
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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Dan,
I understand that, having been employed in a technical capacity by a Patent Counsel some years ago and agree that your (IPC's) position is difficult and, at times, unenviable.
However, a reputable company faced with an inaccurate post is more likely to want to correct the error or misunderstanding and put their 'case' - i.e. the facts - to the very readers who have read the alleged defamation. Where the company sees that the criticism is valid and where it has little or no defence, it can only try to bluster along and have the alleged defamation removed.
We are talking here about product matters, not tittle-tattle. Tittle-tattle is different altogether and it is understandable that anyone would wish offensive material about themselves to be removed immediately.
Defamation proceedings are vastly expensive and any defamation lawyer worth his salt will try to dissuade people from taking action and let us not forget, no matter how ugly the story, if it is true then it is not defamatory! Furthermore, for damages to be awarded in a defamation case it is necessary for the plaintiff to show that he actually HAD a reputation that could be defamed! And he will have to show evidence of the damage incurred.
So, if matey is selling chocolate teapots and sues someone who points out the type of construction on YBW then he will have to show that his teapots are NOT chocolate AND that he has actually lost money as a result of the alleged defamation. That is blatantly not the situation in the case I mentioned earlier, the name of which I am not permitted to mention, and while a website seems to have been altered it still does not include the pertinent information - it is missing the Appendix which actually lays down the brightness and colour requirements.
Normally I would assume that was an oversight but someone who thinks 'lawyer' before 'what's the problem let's sort it out' is not on the same wavelenght as most of the posters here.
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My daily blog on the current financial crisis is at:- http://davidscompass.blogspot.com No PMs for now ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com
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demonboy
regular
Reged: 11/10/2004
Posts: 782
Loc: Think bird eaten at Christmas
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Funny you mention a name-and-shame site/thread after talking about LEDs. I seem to remember starting a thread about my negative experiences with a certain LED company, then emailed them directly to see if they would be respond. To their credit they did and as a result they extended their warranty on all LEDs if you said you were a boat-owner, so that's good.
I'm still burning through their festoon bulbs though, and being in Turkey means I can't really replace them with the same company. That said, they're $6 a piece over here...if you can get hold of them.
LJ - where the hell are you? Haven't seen you down the bar at all!
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Follow The Boat Log: Autumn Log & Through The Porthole Interview, 2008
Add stuff to our Sailing Wiki or add your personal blog details
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LadyJessie
regular
Reged: 21/11/2006
Posts: 1150
Loc: the Med
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demonboy, I have been trying to leave for more than a week now but as you very well know: with boats there is always another task. Happy Hour tonight then?
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demonboy
regular
Reged: 11/10/2004
Posts: 782
Loc: Think bird eaten at Christmas
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Oh yes!
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Follow The Boat Log: Autumn Log & Through The Porthole Interview, 2008
Add stuff to our Sailing Wiki or add your personal blog details
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5973
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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Are you getting short life from LEDs? Aside from basic quality, a big issue is the power supply. A boat has a supply of, say, 11.5V to 15V and many of us have chargers or regulators that keep the volts up to nearly 15V for long periods. If the LEDs have simple resistors rather than a more complicated regulator on board (cheap ones will) then if they are designed to be nice and bright at, say, 12V then they won't last long.
There are two kinds of failure for a white LED - failure of the diode itself due to getting too hot - and failure of the special phosphors that decay if over-run. You cannot make a white LED |
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