Gludy
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In a situation where I boat has to run for cover from a storm to a port - is it possible for entry to the port to be refused in what is an emergency situation?
Are there any rules/practice/etc concerning this?
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deisel
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I Have Heard Of This Happening But If I Thought My Boat Or Crew Were In Danger I Would Go In Any Way, Safety First, Any Port In A Storm!!!!
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pir8ped
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Reged: 08/05/2008
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Sometimes, the entrance to a port is more dangerous than out at sea.
Someone bought a boat from me in Devon, sailed it to some port just east of the Isle of Wight, and tried to get into the port ( it was blowing force 6, he'd been out for over 24 hours, and he was tired ). The harbour master told him to turn back, due to breaking waves on the sand bar at the entrance. He refused and got stuck on the sand bar. A life-boat pulled him back out to sea, and as soon as they let go the rope, he went back to the harbour, stuck on the sand bar again, and this time, the boat was broken in two. He survived.
I had survived several gales at sea in that boat, and it was perfectly sound. It could have survived more. He should have hove to, at sea - although I grant this is a little harder if you don't have sail!
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TigaWave
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In a nutshell yes, but only if the harbour authority considers there is greater danger in entering.
I have had to enter a private harbour as a yacht in distress (broken steering) they weren't happy but had to allow us entry.
On the Portuguese coasts subject to Atlantic swells ports are often closed, trouble is you are advised to contact them by radio before entry but I know of at least one incident where there was no clear English information available to an English skipper. He entered and encountered dangerous breaking seas in the entrance channel (the swell was in excess of 10m at sea) he made it through and was greeted by the police and arrested. For some time he was given the impression the boat would be impounded.
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Gludy
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So would I - and would stay there no matter who shouted at me but I dod not know the law or the protocol.
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mikef
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I would say that if the harbour or marina is privately owned they can do what they want. Certainly I've heard of boats being refused entry into marinas in the Med during a storm. In the Balearics in July/Aug there are far more boats at anchor than could possibly be accomodated in harbours and marinas. Personally, I've been towed out of a marina in Ibiza against my wishes when I could'nt start my engines and been unceremoniously dumped outside so I could well imagine the same marina refusing entry to incoming boats in a storm
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Gludy
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All that is very interesting - I agree that entrances can be dangerous but if you need to escape before the storm hits you could enter sagely just to get sanctuary but I imagine sailing in a few hours before the storm maybe more of a problem for the harbour authorities.
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Gludy
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So its seems that some countries have different rules?
Should there not be a clear international code?
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mikef
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I don't know that there are rules as such. We Brits have a tradition of helping other mariners in trouble but in other countries it's every man for himself
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Chrusty1
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Quote:
I don't know that there are rules as such. We Brits have a tradition of helping other mariners in trouble but in other countries it's every man for himself
Absolutely Mike! It is the most important unwritten rule of the sea. I think even in foreign lands, most would go along with that? 
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MapisM
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I'm not underestimating Brit traditions here, but imho it's rather a matter of being a 'sunday boater' rather than a proper mariner - regardless of the passport and the sea.
Re. regulations, isn't 'aid omission' (generally speaking, not only at sea) a criminal offense?
Now, if/how/when refusing the entrance in a marina can be qualified as aid omission, that's another matter.
But I suspect that under a declared emergency, and if those refusing the aid could not prove to have compelling reasons to do so, they do risk to be prosecuted.
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Gludy
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Yes - all i know would go out of their way to help anyone in trouble at sea.
When i had left one port with a vessel waiting for my place as I left - the harbour master ensured that there was a place for me when I radioed in with a emergency and slowly made my way back to port.
Mind I seem to have had a few things go wrong at sea! 
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Gludy
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You may be right but where are the regs?
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MapisM
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Well, a quick google shot returned this and other results, but to be honest I'm not so interested to investigate further...
In practice, if and when you'll be in trouble, what else can you do aside from hoping to find sensible people willing to help?
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mikef
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A quick google brought up this
The 1974 International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS Convention) obliges the
“master of a ship at sea which is in a position to be able to provide assistance, on receiving information from any source that persons are in distress at sea, is bound to proceed with all speed to their assistance, if possible informing them or the search and rescue service that the ship is doing so…”3
The 1979 International Convention on Maritime Search and Rescue (SAR Convention) obliges State Parties to:
“…ensure that assistance be provided to any person in distress at sea… regardless of the nationality or status of such a person or the circumstances in which that person is found”… and to “provide for their initial medical or other needs , and deliver them to a place of safety.”4
On 1 July 2006, amendments to the SOLAS and SAR Conventions concerning the treatment of persons rescued at sea entered into force.5 The SOLAS amendments add to and clarify the existing obligations to provide assistance, adding the words: “This obligation to provide assistance applies regardless of the nationality or status of such persons or the circumstances in which they are found"
I think that might oblige state owned harbour authorities to provide shelter but where privately owned harbours stand I don't know
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Gludy
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Its interesting because the maser of a privately owned boat/ship is obliged but it states nothing about the harbour.
The situation seems as I thought it was - regs applying to boats but the rest is not clear and relies on common sense not law ...... so my guess is that here is no specific law.
This means I have a weak case arriving in a little Cornish harbour two hours before the storm hits and whilst it is still calmish with a big cat and making sure I can stay there
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blueglass
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Quote:
. Personally, I've been towed out of a marina in Ibiza against my wishes when I could'nt start my engines and been unceremoniously dumped outside
what!! I would like to hear the full story on that one. Did they just leave you adrift?
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Searush
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I and another boat were denied access to Camaes inner harbour once (mid1980's) as there wasn't enough room. As a NWly gale was due & the bay is very exposed I sought shelter under Wylfa head. The other boat anchored off the beach and was smashed to matchwood.
Swmbo, me & the kids (age 5 & 9) had a really bad night & went ashore in a cove the following day to escape the rolling (gunwhale to gunwhale) until the wind eased & we escaped in the afternoon (into a mere F6 and overfalls) to get into Holyhead for a night & day spent sleeping!
Not exactly an "emergency" in that the boat was in good order, but there clearly was severe danger. The other couple were lucky to get out alive but lost absolutely everything on the boat. Townspeople did at least have a whip round for them for clothes, lodging & to get back home.
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mikef
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We had a charging problem with one engine in our previous boat, an Azimut 46, whilst cruising off Ibiza. The starboard engine failed whilst still at sea. Not knowing what was wrong, I radioed the nearest marina, Botafoch in Ibiza Town, explained that we had lost 1 engine and begged them for a berth. At first they refused but then said we could occupy a berth until 16.00 that same day. We berthed and I got hold of an electrician who proceeded to disconnect a lot of wires and then announced that we needed new batteries. He then buggered off promising to return later with new batteries. I explained this to the marina staff but they kept insisting that we had to leave at 16.00. At the appointed time, 2 marina staff came to the boat and I demonstrated that I could'nt start either engine. They insisted that they would tow me out of the marina despite my protests. A few minutes later they returned to the berth in a dory, untied us and towed us out of the marina and dumped us inside the new harbour wall where we could do nothing but drop anchor. Anchoring is prohibited in this area because of commercial traffic docking there and in fact last year, somebody was fined very heavily for anchoring there but we couldn't move because we had no engines
The electrician did'nt return until the following day and I had to ferry him and the batteries out to the boat with the tender. As it was, the batteries were not the problem. I found out later that a faulty alternator allowed 1 battery bank to drain completely with the result that the fuel solenoid closed and shut off the fuel to the failed engine
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Gludy
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These are fascinating stories - are there anymore?
Sort of prepares you for what can happen.
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hlb
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To me it's a stupid question. Marina full is obvious. But there are very few uk harbours interested in who enters and only then because of the danger of outgoing ferries. You just mosey up and go in. No harbour will denny entrance especially in a storm. OK you might not get the best berth in a marina. But you will never get refused.
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Gludy
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Loc: Brecon, Wales
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Hlb
There you go again claiming a stupid question. A perfectly peaceful thread on a valid boating topic cannot be left alone by you.
The question what the law is and that is a perfectly valid question. Sorry it does not fit in with the forum thought police code.
Also the answers have been interesting. In particular the being dumped outside without an engine working etc.
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blueglass
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that's terrible. OK I ,m sure the berth was booked out to somebody else, but the somebody else had a fully functional boat. so much for helping others in distress. somehow I don't think this would happen in the UK - or am I dreaming?
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Tonybob
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"This means I have a weak case arriving in a little Cornish harbour two hours before the storm hits"
Gludy is this hypothetical or was it an actual incident? If actual what was the weather forecast prior to leaving the marina?
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hlb
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Thankfully, the Cornish harbour does not need a law, as to whether you can go in it or not. Though no doubt this Government will see it wise to invent one.
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Gludy
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It is theoretical but raised because with a drying out boat that is slower I may only be able to reach a small harbour in time to miss what is coming.
In real life I listen to the Met office forecasts but take them with a pinch of salt and do my own. So I would never plan to be out in bad weather.
I have been out in bad weather because of must do delivery trips but that was in large mon0 hull power boats and I knew what I was heading into to, although when the waves needed to be looked up to from the flybridge of a 60 foot boat - estimated at 18 feet high, I did run for cover to Plymouth with a German warship taking station up smack on my stern and covering me from the wind!
I go boating to enjoy myself not to punish myself and SWMBO so I always do my very best to avoid bad weather but I am pleased that I have had bad weather experiences on delivery trips.
There are clear rules governing the duty of a skipper in a boat to come to the aid of anyone in distress but there do not seem to be any rules governing a harbour giving aid to a boat that is trying to avoid a distress situation.
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nyx2k
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please excuse my ignorance but if you're buying your new boat to do extended cruising then surely one of the main points of this boat should be that it can take Anything the weather can throw at it.
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Gludy
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The long range boat I will be buying will exceed Class A Ocean going and will be capable of riding out a storm..... yes.
However, there are many reasons why you would wish to avoid such a storm and many other reasons why a storm can be dangerous for any boat.
Storms see huge commercial boats founder let alone a class A pleasure boat - it would be foolhardy not to avoid a storm no matter what boat you are in - the stress on the crew - in this case SWMBO, not being the least of it.
I will always do all I can to avoid bad weather and will not sail into it unless I really have to and in that case would still try and limit it to a maximum force 8.
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Beadle
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I'll try to be more polite than Haydn but I am becoming a bit confused about what precisely the problem is.
One of the advantages of a cat is that they are less uncomfortably in bad weather and a 50ft version should be able to cope with almost anything around the British coast.
OK no-one likes the nasty stuff but its part of the game really.
As for getting to a safe haven then what is your worry. You just go in. Assuming that the place is safe to enter, and many are not in bad weather from the wrong direction. I would guess thats a common thing around Cornwall. Thats seamanship and local knowledge needed for this decision.
A couple of times I've ducked into places yachts don't normally go - once for bad weather, and once cos I was tired and needed a rest and had missed the tide and was generally fed up.
No-one even asked the question. I asumed that if there isn't a rule to say they must let you in then there isn't a rule that says you must go out if you consider it unsafe.
If you need to go in then go - and argue the case from a position of being tied up and secure. I would be amazed if anyone bothered. And if they were what could they do? Call he bobbies - doubt they would be interested - and if they were tell them you've had a drink and can't drive.
Sue you - for what - making a temporary hole in their water?
I think you are worrying about nothing - JGFDI
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Edited by Beadle (10/05/2008 20:28)
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hlb
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I think it's just Gludys latest attempt to get the 10 million thread post. Invent somthing that's never happend, get everone het up about it. Then decide some thing has to be done about it.
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Beadle
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As an afterthought.
Taking a 50ft cat into a small harbour in bad weather could in itself be quite a demanding exercise.
A cat is lighter than both a mono sailing boat or a power boat.
In my very limited experience of a 9m Catalac they get blown about quite q bit even under engine, and even with twin engines were quite difficult to manoeuvre in a strong cross wind.
I can imagine a big cat in a crowded harbour in a strong wind being somewhat embarrasing
I think what I'm saying is don't jump out of the frying pan into the fire.
PPS
You mention Cat A for the boat, which reminded me. Lower categories of boat used commercially can only sail within specific distance of a "safe haven"
As this is legislation there must be some definition of what constitutes a "safe have"
From that it follows that whatever harbour, port or facility constitutes a "safe haven" must allow entry - otherwise it could not be a haven.
QED I suggest
Edited by Beadle (10/05/2008 20:48)
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hlb
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