Tranona
regular
Reged: 10/11/2007
Posts: 1084
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Sorry, alant but you seem to be blinded about liferafts being a viable and necessary piece of safety equipment for yachtsmen. Unfortunately the evidence is against you. The chances of your yacht foundering are close to zero (17 cases in the last 12 years in UK and Irish waters or involving UK registered yachts elswhere and almost all in situations that most are unlikely to ever encounter). In 7 cases liferafts were deployed of which two were entirely successful, one failed to work and the other 4 were only partially successful.
All of this is in the public domain in the MAIB and MCIB reports.
You owe it to the people you are training and giving advice to (and youself) to read all these reports so that your opinion and advice is based on fact and not speculation on what "might" happen.
We can all imagine scary scenarios and there are examples of extreme situations that have arisen, but they are far removed from the lived reality of our own lives and sailing practices. The only possible exception is collision, and even then there are only 5 reported cases at sea of which only 2 resulted in loss of life in that period plus two others in a commercial harbour, one of which resulted in loss of life (and where a liferaft would not have changed the outcome).
Amazing is it not that there are so few. Says a lot for standards of seamanship and quality of equipment available to us to allow us to stay clear of big ships and navigate safely in our crowded waters.
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alant
regular
Reged: 30/05/2001
Posts: 1863
Loc: UK - Solent region
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"Can you guarantee that your LR will inflate? Can you guarantee that everyone will be able to get in it safely ... you are assuming that a LR = 100% safety guaranteed - which is bolx"
"In 7 cases liferafts were deployed of which two were entirely successful, one failed to work and the other 4 were only partially successful."
"advice is based on fact and not speculation on what "might" happen."
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To all these comments, there is one definite conclusion.
If you DO NOT have a LR, then you can be 100% certain, that it cannot work!
Yes there are failures.
Yes there are few situations when they have been used in anger by yotties.
So, does this still allow you to say with certainty that they are a waste of space?
This is definitely bolx (as you say).
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alant
regular
Reged: 30/05/2001
Posts: 1863
Loc: UK - Solent region
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In 7 cases liferafts were deployed of which two were entirely successful, one failed to work and the other 4 were only partially successful.
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This suggests to me an 85% success rate.
Bloody marvelous I would think, if I was one of the guys about to get into one.
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Fireball
regular
Reged: 15/11/2004
Posts: 7179
Loc: Chichester
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Quote:
So, does this still allow you to say with certainty that they are a waste of space?
This is definitely bolx (as you say).
Please identify EXACTLY where I said they are a waste of space?
I said: "Am I saying that you shouldn't have a liferaft? No ... of course not ... but it is dependent on your perception of the risk." and "For many, the risk is so low that it really isn't worth purchasing a LR - you'd do better spending the £500 on a family holiday somewhere hotter! "
The evidence given by others show that statistically you are highly unlikely to need a LR in UK coastal waters, even then 70% of the deployments were a failure (not that I would give much credence to such a low sample size.)
Please stop talking absolute crap - as a registered/qualified RYA instructor with 30+ years experience you really should know better.
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Don't be sad boy, people die all the time, just like that, why you could wake up dead tomorrow. - Homer Simpson
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Tranona
regular
Reged: 10/11/2007
Posts: 1084
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Never said they were a waste of space. I have one on one of my own boats. All I am saying is that this emotive talk about the dangers is out of line with the facts.
Much legislation/regulation and opinion is based on "mights" rather than responding to the evidence of "what is". Once it becomes normal practice it becomes accepted - even though it may be wrong. Speed and road accidents is another area of modern life where dogma overrides reality. But on the other hand how many people do you see driving around without wearing their seatbelts when there is overwhelming evidence that they save lives every day. And the probability of having an accident on the road is infinitely higher than at sea, mainly because you are also at risk from the actions of others - very rare at sea!
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Fireball
regular
Reged: 15/11/2004
Posts: 7179
Loc: Chichester
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Sorry - you are really talking out of your rear end here ...
7 deployments (gawd knows how many ppl carry them and how many trips where may be needed - but I'd guess it is in the millions)
of those 7, 2 were succesful - that is 28.5% chance of success. 4 were only partially successful - ie a failure - 56% only partially succeesful then ... therefore 14.25% failure ...
as I said - 7 deployments doesn't make for good statistics - the sample size is far too small to be of any use. The figures given do not give any other variables - make/size/age/last service so you cannot use any of these figures.
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Don't be sad boy, people die all the time, just like that, why you could wake up dead tomorrow. - Homer Simpson
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jack_sparrow
regular
Reged: 14/06/2007
Posts: 24
Loc: Buckinghamshire
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I cruise the South Coast and France, so pretty much coastal.
This is done with SWIMBO and a young family - so most Definatly have our own liferaft.
I bet those three unfortunate souls from the Ouzo wished that they had had a liferaft. They may not have had time to put out a distress call, however a LR would probably have prevented them from expiring from hypothermia.
With family on board the consequences of not having a LR do not bear thinking about.
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stevebrassett
regular
Reged: 26/07/2004
Posts: 1044
Loc: Herts
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I cruise on the East Coast, and am rarely more than half a mile offshore. There are no rocks where I sail, and the mud won't puncture my hull (I know - I've hit it often enough). I don't have a liferaft, and have no intention in getting one for this boat. I mostly single-hand, and anyone coming sailing with me is made aware in advance that I don't have a liferaft. I don't have plumbed-in gas. I have lifejackets that I periodically inspect and test. I always have in-date flares, and I have fixed VHF, H/H VHF and an emergency aerial. No-one will convince me that I need a liferaft.
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Fireball
regular
Reged: 15/11/2004
Posts: 7179
Loc: Chichester
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In your situation I'd probably shell out for a LR ... or hire one for the X Channel hops ...
The MAIB report suggests that a LR MAY have been of help to the Ouzo crew - but then so would a sodding great big engine and hydrofoils - IF ... and only IF they were aware the assumed collision would occur. I think the only 100% hard fast thing we can learn from the Ouzo is that you cannot rely on others to avoid a collision.
Quote:
With family on board the consequences of not having a LR do not bear thinking about.
I've had family on board with no LR .... the consequences were .... fun time had by all and they want to go sailing again ...
Sorry - with young family on board you do not take the same sort of risks - and if you don't have a LR then you take that into account when planning your passages.
LR is there (for those that have them) as a last resort - not a "Get out of danger free" card ...
I'll make a suggestion - sail as though you don't have any safety gear onboard ... you'll be much safer!
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Don't be sad boy, people die all the time, just like that, why you could wake up dead tomorrow. - Homer Simpson
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DogWatch
regular
Reged: 10/09/2004
Posts: 9164
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Have you met Gludy?
Paul - Alan, Alan - Paul, right I'll leave you two to get acquainted. 
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