Tranona
regular
Reged: 10/11/2007
Posts: 1078
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I have attempted to do that - or at least something similar such as estimating the number of yachts crossing the channel by trying to get figures for the number of British visitors to French ports, but there is no data.
In many ways it is a "good thing" because there is no need for anybody to report their sailing movements therefore no base for statistics. This of course may change when the proposed cross border procedures come into force, or some of the people participating in today's hot thread about police boarding boats get their way!
With regards to yachts foundering and liferaft usage it is completely irrelevant because the incidents are less that 2 a year - and some years none. So it does not matter whether it is 1000 or 100000 movements or 1 million or 10 million miles, the probability of a foundering occuring is statistically unmeasurable. And the numbers per year are static or declining, depending on the period you take, despite the obvious increase in activity.
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Sailfree
regular
Reged: 18/01/2003
Posts: 2699
Loc: Solent
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You among a few others have posted a lot of sense but unfortunately people get blinded by a certain viewpoint.
A liferaft is a sensible safety feature I carry 2! Its a charter boat so an 8 man for the coding and a 4 man with hydrostatic release when there is only 2 of us. In itself though a Liferaft would not be high on my list of priorities in listing safety accessories.
Someone on here mentioned the Ouzo incident. On X channel I ask crew to buy a simple pack of 10 handheld parachute flares and carry them in their salopette pocket- cost about £35. That may have made all the difference in the sad Ouzo affair. Next would be a waterproof handheld VHF clipped to your lifejacket. One person survived much longer in the water than the other 2 as he had crotch straps on his LJ - cost £7. As personal GPS EPIRBS are now down to £325 I think that would be next (I keep one attached to my LJ) and lastly a Liferaft is good and would have a higher priority if I sailed in cold waters with very limited immersion survival time. If on a limited budget I think I might put Radar a higher priority than a Liferaft.
I do wish more people really thought about the risks and took the appropriate safety measures for their circumstances rather than this one size fits all.
I also like to sail in a way (hence the priority for Radar) with correct preparation that results in all this being unnecessary and a total waste of money!
Edited by Sailfree (14/05/2008 17:13)
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jordanbasset
regular
Reged: 31/12/2007
Posts: 161
Loc: Shropshire
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A very useful post that makes a lot of sense in that it measures the bang for your bucks and has certanly made me think about a lot of things
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"Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza."
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Login_name
regular
Reged: 07/05/2008
Posts: 555
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Quote:
Not my opinion, its the opinion of every seafaring authoritative body on the planet, including our own MCA, HMCG, RYA etc.
Not so. The RYA does not say that a LR is essential. If you refer to the RYA booklet which I mentioned in an earlier post you will see what the RYA recommends.
The RNLI does not either. When you get a Sea Check done by them (You've had yours done I hope. Anyone who hasn't is being reckless with their family  ) the Check list clearly does not indicate that the RNLI regards a LR as essential for coastal boating)
No one is saying that a LR is not desirable. They are saying that it is not essential in all cases. There are other things which are more important and it is foolish for anyone to pin all their hopes on a LR. The whole of the safety regime (sorry to sound like a H&S guru) on a boat needs looking at; equipment, training, experience of crew, type of craft, sailing areas, etc etc.
There are many life threatening things which could happen on a boat for which a LR would be no use whatsoever. Have you got all those covered?
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alant
regular
Reged: 30/05/2001
Posts: 1859
Loc: UK - Solent region
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I suggest you read the fishing boat accident reports from MAIB where there is overwhelming evidence that lives could be saved if hydrostatically released liferafts were used. However the situation is very different as these boats go out in weather when you and I are tucked up in front of the fire.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"when you and I are tucked up in front of the fire."
& I am sometimes on one, which is why I like a LR onboard!
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nct1
regular
Reged: 21/02/2004
Posts: 378
Loc: UK
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A seatbelt or airbag is a safety device that is there as a last resort, sensible people will drive according to their own limits of skill (rather like sailors), and have various other safety devices that will reduce the chance of having an accident (good brakes / abs), and if an accident should happen, if the speed is not excessive, the collapsable safety zone will give a good degree of protection. However, as you have pointed out there are some occasions when the crash is beyond your control, and that is where the seat belt and air bag will help as last resort. Much like a life raft.
I agree the number of fatal car accidents is much larger than the number of drownings, however the number of car miles is also vastly greater than the number of sea miles sailed. But it would be false to conclude that someone that only drives a small number of miles annually does not need a seat belt, a seatbelt, like a liferaft is there as a safety device of last resort when something unexpected happens.
With respect to the force 7 and foundering, I have been on more than one occasion in an unforecast force 7, had I struck say a sub merged container, or an internal plumbing fitting had sheered letting in sea water, or water ingress caused a short that sparked a fire ( I could go on), I would have had to look at plan B or C.
Having listened to the VHF traffic during that time, the emergency services were dealing with quite a lot, and in one case the boat had a weak battery but luckily another boat relayed their VHF calls. Given the amount of emergency calls they had on both occasions, it was clear that resources would have been stretched to cover every call. From that I surmise that sometime I cannot rely on the emegency services to get to me on time, I may need to have an alternative (i.e. a LR)
So yes my plan is that the life raft is a complete waste of money, and I would only contemplate getting in one as the boat went down underneath me.
By definition, you will not have anyone on this forum that needed one but did not have one !
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Sailfree
regular
Reged: 18/01/2003
Posts: 2699
Loc: Solent
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Quote:
By definition, you will not have anyone on this forum that needed one but did not have one !
You may wish to edit this comment as I believe in your title you have responded to the wrong person.
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Tranona
regular
Reged: 10/11/2007
Posts: 1078
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No, the liferaft does not act in the same way as seat belts and airbags. They are passive and a raft is active - you have to positively deply one in circumstances that usually make it very difficult.
With the possible exception of collisions all foundering incidents are the result of a skipper or crews actions - not a third party at the time (unless you count the designers that get keels wrong).
You can imagine all sorts of situations when an incident might occur, but the fact is that they don't and lead to foundering. Many of the things that you imagine have the potential to cause a yacht to founder, but do not get that far because the crew deal with the problem or the rescue services come into play.
Have a sound yacht, stay on board it, keep away from big ships and dont go out in bad weather and you are likely to be OK.
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Moonfire
regular
Reged: 09/11/2004
Posts: 603
Loc: Medway, UK
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Tranona
I fear the MAIB records you repeatedly quote as justification do not give the full picture. I've located the Thames estuary incident. Yachting Monthly Dec 04 p72-74 ('learning curve') I suggest you read it:
Father and son in an apparently well sorted yacht strike an object in the outer Thames at night ( in June) - boat starts to rapidly sink, 5 - 10 mayday calls gained no response two flares likewise despite ships only a few miles away. Stepped up into the liferaft at 0210 BST, fired flares when commercial ships in the vicinity but none respond, eventually recovered at 1010 BST. Without a liferaft these two would be dead (despite being in coastal waters etc etc). Incidents where a liferaft saves lives in coastal situations do occur - would you agree??
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Tranona
regular
Reged: 10/11/2007
Posts: 1078
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Many thanks for this, Moonfire. I will look it up. I quote the MAIB because it has a statutory duty to investigate any accident in UK waters or involving UK vessels. It does this at 2 levels. A preliminary investigation and then, if there is a major issue a full report. The incident you refer to does not seem to show in either category, so either it was not reported through the normal channels or I have missed it somewhere along the line.
There are, of course many life threatening incidents that never get anywhere near the MAIB and are usually recorded by the rescue services, particularly the RNLI which has no obligation to publish details. They do, however analyse the incidents to inform the advice they give on safety.
From my experience in observing the development of legislation and good practice in the commercial shipping field, improvements have been made, particularly in such areas as fire prevention and stability since the change in attitude that allows sharing and publication of incidents. CHIRPS is a good example of this approach.
So, although the MAIB and MCIB data may not be perfect it is much better than peoples' personal imaginations and beliefs that often underpin opinions stated in posts.
"Moral Panic" is a well known concept in mass communications exemplified by such incidents as Devil worship in the Orkneys and systemic child abuse in Lancashire, none of which had any basis in fact. Would be a pity if such phenomena spread into Yachting.
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