BrendanS
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Reged: 11/06/2002
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Loc: Me: Wilts. Boat: Lymington
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If a powerboat was unsinkable (similar to the raggy Etaps) would it influence your purchasing decision positively. Interesting conversation I had last night, and wondered what people thought.
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B175Chris
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I think a lot of people by boston whalers for this reason, but wikipedia says:
Quote:
Today this "unsinkable" attribute is not exclusive to Boston Whalers. All modern boats under twenty five feet manufactured for sale in the United States are required by law to have positive flotation so that a completely swamped boat will still float.[4] This is accomplished by the use of closed cell foam incorporated in the boat. Boston Whaler does claim that they use "up to two-and-a-half times more foam than is required to meet Coast Guard standards," and that their boats don't just have postive flotation, but truly level flotation when swamped
Personally it wouldn't affect my decision to buy one boat over another, unless I was having a hard time choosing between two boats and it was down to details.. I'd make my choice based on power, handling, cost and styling, probably 
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BrendanS
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Reged: 11/06/2002
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Loc: Me: Wilts. Boat: Lymington
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I'm including boats over 25'
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Sneds
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I clicked "Yes" but only if I needed one last deciding factor.
Interesting result so far.
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jfm
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Loc: London/Antibes
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As ever, one has to answer this type of question literally. I didn't ready an implied "influence positively" into the question, and I dont know if you wanted readers to(?). So I clicked yes, as in it would influence my decision, but it wouldn't necessarily influence it positively. The volume consumed and access issues created by the closed cell foam (if that is the means ued to achive unsinkability) would in a big boat probably make me decide NOT to buy the boat.
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BrendanS
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Reged: 11/06/2002
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Loc: Me: Wilts. Boat: Lymington
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I've changed the text of the post to say positively, as that was what I was really interested in (can't edit the poll unfortunately)
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rickp
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Reged: 10/11/2002
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Yes, I agree with you on that one jfm. Plus an unsinkable boat is no help if its on fire - so you still need a liferaft anyway.
Rick
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No_Regrets
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Reged: 09/07/2007
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Loc: Welwyn Garden City, Herts UK.
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My Rio is unsinkable due to that construction, but I didn't know until I read the handbook!
I would imagine the back half (With Volvo D3) is not unsinkable if detached from the bows though.... 
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The scourge of Windsor, and notorious founder member of the 'Upper Thames Birchwood Massive' now outlawed by the EA and River pressure groups, currently planning a nice comfy retirement in the aft cabin of a Broom.
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KCook
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Loc: western US
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In addition to Whaler, other foam filled US boats are Edgewater, Everglades, and McKee. All of these are OB powered fishing boats. All are good looking, highly regarded. Unfortunately their cockpits all look like the inside of a bathtub. They do provide a few pockets for storing gear, but can't do this as well as the conventional boats.
Kelly Cook
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BrendanS
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Reged: 11/06/2002
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Loc: Me: Wilts. Boat: Lymington
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I'm thinking more about larger boats with berths, galley, heads, and inboard engines, rather than fishing boats of this sort.
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Pete_Cooper
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Loc: West of Scotland
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Unsinkability doesn't seem to be a major factor in the sailing yacht market - Etaps and Sadlers both claim this, but many other manufacturers who sell sinkable boats still seem to do OK.
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No_Regrets
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Loc: Welwyn Garden City, Herts UK.
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Oh, they can all sink... 
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The scourge of Windsor, and notorious founder member of the 'Upper Thames Birchwood Massive' now outlawed by the EA and River pressure groups, currently planning a nice comfy retirement in the aft cabin of a Broom.
Now can anybody recommend any non-marking slippers?
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Chris_d
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Reged: 15/06/2001
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Loc: Oxfordshire
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Probably doesn't influence many purchase decisions, but anybody who really knows what can happen at sea would have one. Most of the crews who lost their lives in that infamous Fastnet race back in the eighties, were lost because they took to liferafts thinking their boats would sink. Infact most didn't sink because they were effectively unsinkable and floated semi submerged. The rescue services found all the unsunk boats but not all the liferafts. So the moral is that an unsinkable boat might save your life because it more easily found than a liferaft.
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MapisM
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Reged: 11/03/2002
Posts: 3086
Loc: Italy
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Quote:
Interesting conversation I had last night
Care to tell us about it? Fwiw, I tend to agree with jfm.
The safest pleasure boats I'm aware of are steel trawlers with double integral hull and self-righting capability.
None of them are technically unsinkable, but I'd gladly afford an ocean crossing on one of them.
On the other hand - since I know frinstance Rio boats, which as No_Regrets says are supposed to be unsinkable - I wouldn't venture any farther from the coast with one of them, than I'd be capable to return swimming.
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BrendanS
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Reged: 11/06/2002
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Loc: Me: Wilts. Boat: Lymington
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I want to get some unbiased responses before I go into the conversation in more detail.
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MapisM
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Well, the poll says a lot already - 40% of "no influence" is amazing.
In fact, I voted 'yes', in spite of (or maybe consistently with?) what I just said.
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BrendanS
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Reged: 11/06/2002
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Loc: Me: Wilts. Boat: Lymington
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I don't want to make any comments on the results yet, as I don't wish to bias the results with which way I was thinking during the conversation.
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MapisM
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Reged: 11/03/2002
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C'mon Brendan...
Each and every post of ours is biased. Your poll is. Life is. What's wrong with that?
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jfm
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Reged: 16/05/2001
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Loc: London/Antibes
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As the saying goes, always step up into the liferaft...
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BrendanS
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Reged: 11/06/2002
Posts: 38229
Loc: Me: Wilts. Boat: Lymington
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I'm more than happy to give the reasons for the post, but want to wait at least 24 hours to see what the poll says first.
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jfm
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OK, thanks. Then I'd vote "No". (When counting, please change my Yes to a No). I do not think that sinking for want of several cubic metres of closed cell foam is a significant risk in (say) a 60 foot boat. There are many other more significant risks to deal with, and for those one-in-million tiny probabilities there are a couple of LRs, many LJs, and a tender ready to be quick launched with a knife.
On the other hand, building many cubic metres of closed cell foam in creates the certianty (not merely the risk) of much less interior volume, difficult engineering access, etc. Those things would reduce my enjoyment of the boat with certianty. And the whole point of having the boat is to have fun
So no, I wouldn't do something that might help me in a 1-in-million unlikely scenario if the cost of that is permanent reduction in enjoyment of the boat. If one were to follow that logic one wouldn't fly or drive to the boat for risk of crashng, etc
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MapisM
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Quote:
there are a couple of LRs, many LJs, and a tender ready to be quick launched with a knife.
Howzzat, no EPIRB?!? 
Anyway. The reason why I still replied 'yes' is that in my understanding these polls implies the assumption "all other things being equal".
You're correct saying that in real world the volumes required to make a 60' unsinkable are huge, and hence not worth the hassle.
But I guess that in a theorical alternative between two identical boats under any respect aside from sinkability, you'd rather go for the un- than for the sinkable, wouldn't you?
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jfm
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Yep, loads of other safety gear too, I didn't mention it all! The boat is cat B (60miles from safe haven) MCA coded for 12+2 so that means quite a lot of (pretty sensible) safety gear
Yeah, sure, if all other things equal then I'd choose unsinkable. I read the question as meaning a boat half full of closed cell foam. As ever with these things, the question tells 1/3 of the story and each reader invents the other 2/3 in his mind and answers the question based on that! :-)
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BrendanS
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Reged: 11/06/2002
Posts: 38229
Loc: Me: Wilts. Boat: Lymington
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As you say, you are making a lot of assumptions
I'll tell all, but don't want to start various thread drifts before the poll has had at least 24 hours to get some decent results.
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Nick_H
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The "all other things being equal" qualification makes the poll a bit pointless doesn't it, of course everyone would sooner have a boat that doesn't sink, all other things being equal. Answering "no" to that can only mean you want your boat to sink. In reality though, there's always a trade off, maybe space if its filled with foam, or cost if its a fancy air bag deployment system.
So i've answered "no", I don't want a boat that doesn't sink, cos I don't think its likely to happen, and i'm probably not prepared to accept the trade off, whatever it may be.
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jfm
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Oh heck, if it's a fancy airbag deployment system I definitely dont want one! Jeeze. That would be a solution looking for a problem, thanks. Anyway, I already have 3 "airbags" (2x LR plus a tender) and conveniently these even separate from the mothership if it's on fire, which i bet the fancy system doesn't :-)
I hope this isn't a development of the water buoy product... Brendan?
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MapisM
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Good point. I agree that the "other things equal" assumption, logicwise, can only lead to one conclusion.
On the other hand, by not qualifying the implications of the non-sinkability (how it's achieved, cost, etc.), the only logical reply would be "how on earth can I say yes or no?"...
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BrendanS
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Reged: 11/06/2002
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Loc: Me: Wilts. Boat: Lymington
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Nothing that complex. I was takling to a someone who imports and sells a range of boats. The boats in the roughly 30' range are unsinkable, and I never realised. He said he didn't push the fact as no one seemed particularly interested in the fact when he was selling them, which suprised me, so I just wondered what the forum thought.
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jfm
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That's a bit of an anticlimax Brendan! :-) What range of boats are they? Gotta link? Do they do it with closed cell foam? Enough to support 2 engines and other gear when the hull is flooded?
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BrendanS
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Reged: 11/06/2002
Posts: 38229
Loc: Me: Wilts. Boat: Lymington
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Motorcats
http://www.motorcat.com/
When they did the tests, they obviously didn't want to immerse actual engines and finished interiors, so they loaded the finished hulls and cabin with same weight and density materials throughout the hulls/cabin to similulated engines and fully fitted interiors. The boat had sufficient bouyancy to keep it afloat and then they put I think 6 people aboard, just to finish the simulation, and there was still buoyancy to spare to account for extra kit on board etc.
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jfm
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Just had time for a quick look, gotta run, but website only talks (in very poor engineering talk about shear forces...) of foam core (ie Airex or similasr) in the GRP laminate. Not huge great chambers full of closed cell foam.
The "trick" is that it only has 2 tiny outboards. i suppose if i replaced marine diesels and genset etc on mine with a couple of outboards it would actually be unsinkable with all the airex in it.
Imho they're they're right to keep quiet about unsinkability, cos the story doesn't really hold water. The "compromise" as mentioned/predicted by several posters in this thread is that you have 2 outboards for power - hardly a case of "all other things being equal"!
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BrendanS
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Reged: 11/06/2002
Posts: 38229
Loc: Me: Wilts. Boat: Lymington
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That's why I avoided details in the poll. I was more interested in the fact that potential purchasers weren't interested, and wanted to see what forumites thought. Rather than dissecting a particular boat. More interested in general opinion of whether people would be influenced by unsinkability, or whether it would not affect purchasing decision.
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