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alant
regular


Reged: 30/05/2001
Posts: 1789
Loc: UK - Solent region
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK [Re: Tranona]
      #1857968 - 13/05/2008 23:45

Having one is an emotional not rational decision
------------------------------------------------------------------------

How can you possibly say that?

"Just in case of that one in a million or ten million chance happened and I was left wondering if only I got one."

Exactly

& confirmed by

"Whilst Jack will (I hope) do everything in his power to avoid the need for a LR, events can get out of control -"

&

"I think the family would prefer both options (I certainly would)."?


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alant
regular


Reged: 30/05/2001
Posts: 1789
Loc: UK - Solent region
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK [Re: WindFinder]
      #1857969 - 13/05/2008 23:47

If a LR is so essential why do people risk taking only one?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because one is much better than none!


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DogWatch
regular


Reged: 10/09/2004
Posts: 9010
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK [Re: alant]
      #1857990 - 14/05/2008 00:30

Quote:

Having one is an emotional not rational decision
------------------------------------------------------------------------

How can you possibly say that?





I am not looking to battle. Have you re-read any of your posts, the language you use is unbelievable, were you previously in sales before becoming a boat mover? The sort of guilt you are dishing out is akin to the language used by home security salesmen or locksmiths.. Make your home impenetrable or you might as well kill your wife and children yourself!

Do what Alan says or prove to the world that you hate your family. If you were selling LR's at the boat show 90% of prospective customers would tell you where you could put it, the other 10% might lamp you..

I can see your point of view, no really I can, it is just a shame you seem to be steadfast in not seeing anyone else's.

As I said, I am not looking to fight, not interested, just thought I would try to answer this question, 'How can you possibly say that?'.

--------------------
______________________________________________
Then DO something.


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DogWatch
regular


Reged: 10/09/2004
Posts: 9010
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK [Re: alant]
      #1857991 - 14/05/2008 00:31

Quote:

If a LR is so essential why do people risk taking only one?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because one is much better than none!




Now you are definitely trolling, bored of this.

--------------------
______________________________________________
Then DO something.


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Fireball
regular


Reged: 15/11/2004
Posts: 6988
Loc: Chichester
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK [Re: alant]
      #1858036 - 14/05/2008 06:22

You must be really thick ... or as DW suggested - a troll ...

at no point have I said you shouldn't have a LR ... I have only said that not everyone needs one - it depends on personal circumstance ...

my circumstance - south coast sailing - mostly solent ... generally all adult crew - no LR required.
if my circumstance changed to include more X Channel and young family then I would reconsider - even though the chances of using it are still miniscule.

--------------------
Don't be sad boy, people die all the time, just like that, why you could wake up dead tomorrow. - Homer Simpson


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alant
regular


Reged: 30/05/2001
Posts: 1789
Loc: UK - Solent region
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK [Re: DogWatch]
      #1858093 - 14/05/2008 08:19

Do what Alan says or prove to the world that you hate your family

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not my opinion, its the opinion of every seafaring authoritative body on the planet, including our own MCA, HMCG, RYA etc.


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Tranona
regular


Reged: 10/11/2007
Posts: 784
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK [Re: alant]
      #1858293 - 14/05/2008 11:21

Just because official bodies hold a particular view, does not mean that it is either right nor open to challenge. My views are based on the evidence - all in the public domain.

Thankfully we have not got to the stage where carrying a raft is a legal requirement as in France, and I think this is because the official bodies know that it could never be justified.

Just in case you think that I am anti lferaft I suggest you read the fishing boat accident reports from MAIB where there is overwhelming evidence that lives could be saved if hydrostatically released liferafts were used. However the situation is very different as these boats go out in weather when you and I are tucked up in front of the fire. The boats also have a tendency to turn over unexpectedly because of snagging the bottom or loads shifting etc. Once again all in the reports. Recently the Spanish government has made it compulsory for fishermen to wear lifejackets in an attempt to reduce the death toll and I understand proposing to withold compensation if the deceased was not wearing one.

In part this argument is philosophical. Do we base our legislation/advice/official body opinion on evidence or individual and collective belief. For the last several centuries since the enlightenment have collectively favoured the evidence based approach through scientific method. There is a danger that we are moving away from this - we can see it in the debates on road safety, medical care and the environment to name just a few.

In this narrow case that we are looking at (liferafts in yachts) we have very clear evidence, well documented. There are so few cases that statistics are inappropriate, but the method of analysis is to look at each individual case for lessons and possible themes. This gives us three primary causes of foundering (coinditions, collision and structural failure) and 3 lessons on liferafts - they work OK in organised evacuations (but may even then fail to operate); they are less effective in deployment in extreme conditions and they can be unstable and difficult to board. There is no evidence to show that they might be effective in situations like Ouzo, other than in a theoretical sense, and we will probably never know until there is a similar incident where a hydrostatic released raft was used.

In the meantime set your boundaries of sailing within your own perceived risk envelope and enjoy it!


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nct1
regular


Reged: 21/02/2004
Posts: 343
Loc: UK
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK [Re: RGH]
      #1858400 - 14/05/2008 12:47

The answer is easy.

If you think you and your crew could swim a mile or so to shore in an unexpected force 7 then don't bother with a liferaft.

If you and your crew are not olympic swimmers then get one.

The chances of needing one are very small (rather like the chances of needing a car seat belt or air bag), but if you did need one and did not have one.............


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Tranona
regular


Reged: 10/11/2007
Posts: 784
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK [Re: nct1]
      #1858605 - 14/05/2008 15:39

Please do not make comparisons with seat belts and airbags. The probability of having an accident on the roads is far higher than foundering at sea in a yacht, and you might have no control because somebody else causes the accident. Both measures are proven life savers, many times over, every day of the week.

And why do you talk about swimming a mile to shore in an unexpected force 7? This is not the circumstances in which yachts founder and liferafts are deployed.


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DavenHelen
regular


Reged: 06/09/2005
Posts: 366
Loc: UK, Lancashire
Re: "Liferaft" is it needed for coastal cruising in UK [Re: Tranona]
      #1858627 - 14/05/2008 16:03

Genuine Question...

Does anyone have any figures on the total milage of the UK leisure Boat "fleet" in a year. To compare Cars and Boats statistics, you would need to look at Passenger Miles in the same way as is done with Aircraft.

--------------------
Dave

"There are 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't".


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