jonic
regular
Reged: 12/03/2002
Posts: 969
Loc: Balearics
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Two independent chart plotters with separate GPS feeds, two laptops with Nav software, 1 handheld GPS, 1 backup fixed GPS, pilot books for everywhere and paper charts.
It's only now I have written it down I realise how much redundancy I have. Then again I also have two 406 Epirbs.
It seems that you are of a somewhat nervous disposition? 
Or Yachtbroker with a trade account and access to a very big spares box
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www.JRyachts.com
Specialising in Dufour yachts and long distance cruisers
My cruising page
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5814
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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And no - the answer isnt "I've got 2 engines". Dirty fuel can affect both as can ropes round props. Bit like saying I have 2 gps sets - doesnt protect you against the system being shut down or an electrical storm. What is needed is an alternative different power source.
Good point and interesting question but it has nothing to do with charts so would you take it elsewhere, please?
Seriously, though a brand new mobo, of the very large phallic sort, on delivery passage, was wrecked on the approach to Almerimar, last Autumn. They were advised not to attempt entry due to strong SW gales but said that they had no alternative, so came in regardless. Apparently they then bottomed on the approach upon which sensors cut-off both engines  . They finally got some kind of power going and made an entry, then pranged into several boats and a pontoon. I wandered over to take a look some days later. It really was sad to see.
What clown of a mobo designer came up with the bright idea of cutting out engines as a result of sensor inputs? It could have killed the crew and passengers. So negligent it beggars belief but maybe I was given duff information?
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My daily blog on the current financial crisis is at:- http://davidscompass.blogspot.com No PMs for now ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com
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Damo
regular
Reged: 22/02/2005
Posts: 2864
Loc: k keeper,Portishead
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Also fast mobos often rely more on "pilotage" than plotting, because everything can happen a lot faster. Chart plotters can make this a lot easier and safer (as long as there is a good lookout as well  )
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Never be at a loose end with the Yosemite bowline
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anteak
regular
Reged: 28/01/2004
Posts: 1338
Loc: West Sussex
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Very interesting.
I have asked for comments on your statement from airline pilots on Scuttlebut. The implications seem rather serious to my simple mind.
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A man may fight for many things. His country, his friends, his principles, the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd mud wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn. EB
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5814
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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Very interesting.
I have asked for comments on your statement from airline pilots on Scuttlebut. The implications seem rather serious to my simple mind.
To save everyone going over there, this is what I have posted over there...
Presumably when the military play their games they don't interfere with their own GPSs so the spoiler must be coded in such a way that certain types of receiver are not affected. It could be that aircraft receivers are not affected by most naval interference. As you suggest, it could be an issue if aircraft were affected although it might be possible for surface vessels wishing to spoil the signals of other surface vessels to 'beam' the signal in the horizontal plane, reducing the risk of interference with aircraft flying at great altitude (as they mostly will be).
You need to understand that this is a huge military issue and they need to exercise.... if they have no way of disrupting the local GPS signals then an enemy can obtain the lat/long of a vessel by satellite - visually - and send that to the missile's guidance system which, if fitted with GPS, could send the missile right to the target. Remember the short range systems that require the soldier to keep a tank in the sights to guide the missile? A bit like that, but over continents and infallible unless you can knock out the GPS or shoot it down.
That's why the military has to have this kit. The military has to practice using the kit - from live bombs and missiles to advanced computer and radio systems.
One would hope that it is used responsibly in peace time.
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My daily blog on the current financial crisis is at:- http://davidscompass.blogspot.com No PMs for now ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com
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Captainslarty
regular
Reged: 12/08/2007
Posts: 2012
Loc: Currently La Coruna Spain
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Hi David.. I am not convinced in your belieif that ANY military plays 'games' or degrades GPS.. I think that is an ol' wives tale. As for GPS 'quitting' as some have mentioned.. not really a concern, it doesnt happen or else 777's would be falling out of the sky when they ran out of gogo juice lol ..
Seriously.. the prospect of a gps SYSTEM loss is about as high on my concerns as a killer whale sinking the boat...:)
All the paper in the world is of little use in fog and cloud if offshore without electronic methods of navigation.. we used to use walker type logs.. not any more for 99.99999 % of the boating world.
A carefully designed redundant system is the best option imho. (I Used to design mission critical computerised systems for Ambulance dispatch) so the systems, for me, are similar.
There is absolutely no reason why such an approcah cannot be adopted on a boat.
Also, it depends WHERE you sail.. a solent waller who hops to cherbourg or whatever is less likely to want to go this route as the few (relative) old fashined paper charts are not expensive or a great quantity needed. for others venturing further, the cost of paper charts is exhorbitant and considering the less acuurate results obtained in a 'manual' system and the dangers of such there is no justification really for staying 'traditional'
MOST people who CLAIM to use 'traditiona;' methods' actually do NOT.. what they do, is transcribe a gps position TO a paper chart.. highly dubios and prone to errors.
The number of real users who actually maintain a FULLY manual method is virtually non, again, unless sailing in known and limited areas.
AN rya bod, for instance, may well claim to be 'traditional' tallowed lead type of Hombre.. but not in reality.. maybe the persona he or she wants to project to students.. but again, in reality, most instructors do not have much VARIED experience.. they may have 20,000 miles under their keel, but its 20 miles repeated 1000 times.. (I DO have experience of one such instructor.. yes, he did the odd passage of much more, but then offshore, the ONLY sensible method is GPS.
Its a strange one.. but times are changing.
I predict that in 5 to 10 years time, the ONLY ones who use paper charts etc will be the same as the ones using taylors ovens cos they read it in a cruising book written 50 years ago.. and then find they cant get paraffin anymore, the burners are ridiculously priced, the flame eruptions are firghtening and they STILL carry propane torches aboard to light the bloody things lol
People resist change, but for no good reason in this case.. PROVIDING you have a properly thought out system and SOME electronic skills and common sense.. and of course , a knowledge of ancient systems if you need to use them.. a bit like knowing how to rub two girl guides together to start a fire (I think it was something like that)
Joe
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PM me for info re SSB's etc. Bought, sold, repaired, fitted and optimised.
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jordanbasset
regular
Reged: 31/12/2007
Posts: 229
Loc: Shropshire
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Hi David,
I wonder if this is something that will change over time. Those born after 1975 grew up with computers in schools and the workplace, they are comfortable with them and trust them. For my generation they came later in life and I am used to paper and pen. I am not interested in computer games and far prefer a good book.
I like the feel and look of charts and take pleasure in looking at them, imagining what the places look like in real life. Thinking I could moor there, good place for an overnight stop here etc. I just do not get the same feeling looking at an electronic plotter.
That said I think Captain Slarty is the future, may not be in 5 years, but in 15, 20 or 30 years when a new generatuion is where we are I think there will be changes in viewpoint. Electronic aids are getting more and more reliable. I make no judgement on this, just think it is the most likely outcome. When only has to go back 20 years or so to see what the average cruiser carried in terms of electronic assistance to see how much things have changed already. Probably I am old fashioned and would always want a chart as back up and for the enjoyment I get from one. But I am coming around to the opinion it is not the essential I once thought it was
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"Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza."
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Chris_E
regular
Reged: 13/11/2003
Posts: 4702
Loc: Lymington
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I think that you have hit the nail on the head. We had similar debates about GPS 10-15 years ago and these days I doubt there are many who don't have on their boat.
The same will, I'm sure be true of chartplotter. The cost is tumbling to the point where having a battery backup (in the same way we all do for GPS...) for a chartplotter is no longer looked upon as a luxury.
I can see that in 10 years time thar the market for paper charts will split into those used for ocean passage routing and detailed charts for surveying.
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It ain't necessarily so.
Botton Village
Citizens Advice Bureau
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Captainslarty
regular
Reged: 12/08/2007
Posts: 2012
Loc: Currently La Coruna Spain
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Yes, agreed Chris..
Indeed, for ocean and offshore routing, graph paper is cheap and good.
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PM me for info re SSB's etc. Bought, sold, repaired, fitted and optimised.
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Jonny_H
regular
Reged: 15/08/2006
Posts: 1512
Loc: Liveaboard - following the sun...
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Absolutely agree.
We have been getting charts together for our trip to Oz. Using the chart plotter we only need 5 cartridges to cover the UK to Oz - for the same price we would only be able to buy about 50 charts - no where near enough!
Of course, we have back-ups; two seperate laptops both with their own GPS and different chartplotting software with full world maps, and a handheld GPS with lots of batteries and an array of charts (mostly second hand) covering our route, but I don't think we could feasably accomodate a full folio of charts both high level and detailed harbour plans of the whole trip - let alone afford them!
We are certainly relying on the chartplotter, but having 2 seperate laptops as back-up and a handheld backup and a throw switch to power the main chartplotter from the engine battery if we need to, I think we have as much redudancy as you can realistically plan for.
As with all technology, people are reluctant to rely on it. However, even in my profession I rarely see the stereotypical risk averse accountant use a proper ledger book - all done on computers!
If we're talking complete battery failure, then how many people carry a trailing log, lead line and sextant with sight tables etc? In these days as Slarty says, people do rely on electronics because times have changed. I'm sure 30 years ago no-one doing atlantic sailing would contemplate modern and unproven roller furling genoa's and would choose hank on sails - however I suspect well over 95% of the ARC have them! You can compare charts to sails .... in years gone by people carried 3 or 4 different genoas as all were hank on. Nowadays most people carry 1 (plus maybe a storm job) - its the same with charts - rather than carry hundreds, people rely on electronic methods and have a couple for 'emergency' use. How many use the paper charts properly, I would estimate as many as have had the storm jib out of the bag in the last 12 months!
Jonny
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www.freewebs.com/jksailing
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