Shorn100
regular
Reged: 10/05/2002
Posts: 89
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I've never asked anyone to sign a disclaimer for coming on to my boat. However, I always ask if anybody has any medical problems that might be relevant to coming out on a boat - ie asthmatic, diabetic, angina or other heat problems, epilectic etc etc?
And of course, it's good to know who can't swim!
A friend of mine was on a course when one of the students went into a diabetic coma.
I'm now wondering if I should get it in writing that I've asked them these questions?
Shorn
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Shorn100
regular
Reged: 10/05/2002
Posts: 89
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I'm no legal expert but I would suggest that as organisers of any event you will need to have shown that you have exercised a reasonable duty of care.
In which case I would suggest that by simply ignoring to ask if the participants boats are suitable and properly prepared with the correct equipment on, or requiring participants to carry certain equipment that a clever injury lawyer may hold you partly if not wholly reponsible.
Race organisers usually specify the equipment that needs to be carried - ie Cat 5 or Cat 4 for most regular club events/regatta weeks. Some now are checking that the entrants have the equipment aboard.
Of course, 'big' boat events are scrutineered - not just for safety but to ensure nobody's cheating.
I've done a bit of scrutineering and in my experience the majority don't meet the asked-for standard.
I would guess therefore at events where no scrutineering takes place that the organisers excuse that it was a requirement for entry but they hadn't made any efforts to undertake even spot checks, would not 'hold water' if any case ever went to court.
Can any legal eagles suggest where we stand stand on this?
Shorn
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doris
regular
Reged: 19/06/2001
Posts: 647
Loc: London
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Scrutineering.
I think that the R Western have stopped doing this as have the R Torbay for the Triangle because of the potential for legal claims. If they sign a boat off then they expose themselves legally. For this year's Triangle I am told that we will not be scrutineered, we just have to sign up that we are Cat 2 compliant. In my experience over the last 12 years of short handing and being scrutineered, Triangles, Azabs, Fastnets etc there are very few boats that do not comply.
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Real men do it two handed
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Captainslarty
regular
Reged: 12/08/2007
Posts: 2012
Loc: Currently La Coruna Spain
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IF the person is so dumb as to need a disclaimer cos they dont realise that water can drown you, incompetence can also drown you or kill you in many other interesting ways.. then they basically shouldnt be ANYWHERE near a boat..
When disneyland gets you to sign before you ride the coaster, then worry.. even then.. thats the yanks for ya.. and even THEY haven't got to that get..
Thank god for opt out living (Liveaboard with no ties to the UK at all).. chose a country where you feel the nanny state is at least in your favour, not theirs.. or the money men.. (ie accountants, lawyers, marketting exexcutives (Whatever that means), BMW owners, Chelsea tractor owners, landlords and paranoid lounge posters with an overdraft lol ) these are the problem.. they need to pay for their next fix so try to make YOU pay THEM for doing it...
Me gads.. the world is going mad.. mad I tell ya...
Perhaps it needs a makeover or facelift.. or, just move away from it.
ps, attached is a disclaimer...
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The party of the fifth instance indicates that the party of the first instance is secretly sniffing contact adhesive from the undershelf of Asda wrapped in a large brown paper eco friendly bag....
Nurse ? .. me steady pills..
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PM me for info re SSB's etc. Bought, sold, repaired, fitted and optimised.
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bobgosling
regular
Reged: 07/08/2003
Posts: 881
Loc: Cuckfield, West Sussex, UK
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Quote:
I speak as a complete layman in legal matter, but am sure I have seen mention of the invalidity of disclaimers.
Under EU law you cannot derogate your responsibilities by having them signed away.
Actually it is a basic tenet of English law that you cannot sign away your rights.
The only realy valid way to mitigate any claim would be to get your passengers to sign a declaration that they had been given a safety briefing and were aware of the risks involved in sailing. You would still be liable for damages if you were negligent though.
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QuestGirl
regular
Reged: 15/04/2008
Posts: 56
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Quote:
I'm no legal expert but I would suggest that as organisers of any event you will need to have shown that you have exercised a reasonable duty of care.
That's nuts! Surely it should depend on the type of event organised? If I organise a rendezvous point, possibly reserve marina space and arrange a restaurant for dinner in the evening with individuals getting themselves & their boats to each place under their own command, how does that make me liable if someone has an accident due to lack of experience or lack of seaworthiness of their boat???
And if disclaimers aren't valid, where does that leave an event organiser if someone has signed to say they are competent and subsequently prove not to be?
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DJE
regular
Reged: 21/06/2004
Posts: 2025
Loc: Fareham
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Sailing this evening with three teenagers and one twenty something. Only one of them is mine. No disclaimers, no notes from parents, wouldn't even consider it.
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۞
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DRANNIE
regular
Reged: 05/09/2005
Posts: 349
Loc: End of the Met Line
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Hasn't this thread been done in similar terms before? Unfair Contract Terms Act, you cannot have a binding waiver for death or personal injury.
Basics of Tort and 'duty of care' have been around since the famous snail case. clicky
There is quite a lot of nonsense about the extent of duty of care published on here. Common sense is the real watchword for most Tort based cases. I think people take insurance issues too personally. If I'm rendered tetraplegic sailing on a fourmites boat because unchecked 15 year old rigging gives way, the mast snaps and breaks my neck, I take it said forumite isn't going come round to pass my catheter and leave a cheque for the mortgage or take my kids to school. Thats what insurance is for isn't it, it removes the need for individual blame. If I badly injured my wife as a passanger in a car crash I would expect her to sue me.
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AntarcticPilot
regular
Reged: 04/05/2007
Posts: 177
Loc: Cambridge, UK
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Quote:
I speak as a complete layman in legal matter, but am sure I have seen mention of the invalidity of disclaimers.
Under EU law you cannot derogate your responsibilities by having them signed away.
Anyway that's another probably bollox point quoted as fact. (see my signature)
Yes, I have been on a layman's course on disclaimers, and you are quite right; a disclaimer can't remove your duty of care or protect you from your own negligence. Any disclaimer which attempts to do so would be struck down by a judge. It isn't EU law, though - it is British Law with which the EU has kept up!
But the question here isn't about disclaimers. The child was alone with adults not its parents. The Police were looking for evidence that the child was in the situation of its own free will and with the knowledge of its parents. I'd say that was fair enough; regrettably abductions and so on do happen. We have the luxury of assuming that people are on the whole OK; the Police don't.
On the whole the Police do a necessary, if unpleasant, job. They have to work within a strict legal framework, and if they get it wrong they will be hammered by everyone. And they can't win. If they check that a child is with adults that it knows and that its parents know where it is, they get called names for harassment. But if they didn't, and the child was being abducted, they'd get called worse things for dereliction of duty!
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davidfox
regular
Reged: 12/01/2004
Posts: 636
Loc: East of England
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Thanks, its probably in all likelihood to be two couples, dont fancy having to be responsible for kids other than my own! at least not in a boat.
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