WindFinder
regular
Reged: 03/03/2008
Posts: 291
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Don't you remember the first time you went out of sight of land on DR?.... the relief of getting a proper fix again was quite a thing...... ...but imagine if that experience was the first time you'd ever navigated traditionally?......Maybe i'm overplaying it (a little bit intentionally), but just trying to make a point...
I do think you might be overstating the difficulty a bit - the problems I recall were always far more visibility related than skill related. Where there are visible landmarks, being unable to use then to work out where you are would require mental slowness that borders on disability IMHO even if you'd never even seen a boat.
I can see what you're saying though, I set off P'mth to Poole the other week, I felt I didn't need the GPS on for that trip and left it off. The viz closed in and in minutes I came over all nervous and went down to turn it (and the AIS) on. We've become addicted to knowing exactly where we are these days in a way we simply didn't used to be in the 'good/bad old days'.
Edited by WindFinder (15/05/2008 20:57)
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Morgana
regular
Reged: 28/08/2003
Posts: 12278
Loc: East Coast
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Exactly....
You say it'd show mental slowness to not work out where you were.... but if you're not used to using light characteristics to confirm a light source, haven't allowed for variation in 20 years (do I add or subtract that westerly variation?), and can't remember when the compass was last swung (if you even know what that means), then it might be harder than you or I would perhaps expect to be anywhere approaching accurate....
I remember setting out from Plymouth to the Channel Islands with nothing but a chart a pencil and a compass, and getting half way across and not being able to see the bow....
We, as usual, made it quite safely into St Peter Port...
I am sure that nowadays, without my GPS crutch, i'd be a darned site more nervous than I was in those days....
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Bored?.... why not read my blog .... its the developing story of the trials and tribulations of boat ownership!
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WindFinder
regular
Reged: 03/03/2008
Posts: 291
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Quote:
but if you're not used to using light characteristics to confirm a light source, haven't allowed for variation in 20 years (do I add or subtract that westerly variation?), and can't remember when the compass was last swung (if you even know what that means), then it might be harder than you or I would perhaps expect to be anywhere approaching accurate....
Well yeah, but how accurate do you really have to be? We used to go into all sorts of places and hardly ever needed to take bearings - just keep Barfleur well on the left, keep the IOW to the right. Thinking about it how often do you really look at the GPS when there's plenty of land around, if you've checked the chart to ensure the coast is clean just keeping well off and/or following contours is perfectly adequate? It's really a poor viz/no land nearby tool.
Quote:
I am sure that nowadays, without my GPS crutch, i'd be a darned site more nervous than I was in those days....
Totally agree with you there. Being unaware of your exact position used to be normal, now it's a source of unease! I saw an old logbook recently - the guy didn't bother recording the minutes! He felt granularity of 60miles was enough for him, and it was!
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john_morris_uk
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Reged: 03/07/2002
Posts: 3631
Loc: Plymouth UK
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Quote:
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I do carry a sextant and tables as well, which is a bit over the top for the channel...)
Over the top? Are you kidding? It's totally inadequate. It's far more vulnerable to breakage than a £60 waterproof GPS from Millets and half the time it's cloudy and there's nothing to get a fix on at all.
The biggest joke is that you seem to be claiming your sextant is not electronic yet since quartz watches you will almost certainly be relying on an electronic watch to tell the time. Unless you are going to claim that a clockwork watch is more reliable?
I am somewhat bemused by your reply on several counts.
Firstly one of my chronometers is a wind up mechanical one. It is very reliable and its rate is predictable and accurate.
Secondly because the reason I said a sextant is over the top for navigation without electronics is because I really think that it is. You don't need to find your latitude by midday sun or your longtitude by running on that latitude and crossing it with a sun sight a few hours later in the channel, because by a few hours later you've hopefully got some land in sight again.
Yeasr ago I used to sail all round the channel with no Decca or GPS. It was interesting and sometimes worrying not knowing exactly where you were and I know the skills are probably a little rusty now, but I think I could still do it.
Its not the existence of £60 GPS's that worries me, its peoples total reliance on them.
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“When you discover that you are riding a dead horse,
the best strategy is to dismount.”
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BrendanS
regular
Reged: 11/06/2002
Posts: 35784
Loc: Me: Wilts. Boat: Lymington
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Its not the existence of £60 GPS's that worries me, its peoples total reliance on them.
I think you are maybe overplaying the reliance. I have a plotter and backup gps, but am in no way reliant on them. I've been navigating by chart/map since I was 10, and have not lost those skills, and many I know are exactly the same. The convenience of a plotter or gps is very handy, but if they were taken away tomorrow, I wouldn't worry about it, I'd just have to work a bit harder at navigation.
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See http://www.frappr.com/ybw to add yourself to the forum map
and as everyone else is doing it
www.plaintalkconsulting.co.uk
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WindFinder
regular
Reged: 03/03/2008
Posts: 291
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Quote:
Its not the existence of £60 GPS's that worries me, its peoples total reliance on them.
LOL! Wheras relying on wind up clock and a visible sky for your position is not worrying?
Sextants are not over the top compared to GPS they are completely ineffective!
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5333
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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Quote:
LOL! Wheras relying on wind up clock and a visible sky for your position is not worrying? Sextants are not over the top compared to GPS they are completely ineffective!
Hmmmm.... not quite the case. A sextant is hugely useful in determining your position when in sight of land by measuring included angles.
Besides, the entire GPS system could be turned off at any time. OK, the probability of that happening to any of us must be very small but the fact that the entire GPS system has never gone down does not mean that it never WILL go down.
I would feel far more comfortable in the hands of a sailor who has (and uses from time to time) a sextant and who carries a simple Tescos Value GPS for lat/long than with the sailor, untrained in basic marine navigation, who has never had to navigate any distance without GPS and who has three plotters, two handheld GPSs, a drawer full of batteries and a UPS supply to the equipment. The latter looks very smart but I fear that it is an accident waiting to happen.
People should learn the basics and that includes being completely comfortable with how to lay off a course using pencil, ruler, protractor, dividers/compasses, tide tables and some kind of tidal atlas - and, of course, a paper chart. I would suggest to anyone who cannot do it that they buy a suitable book - Dayskipper covers all the basics you need - and learn how to do it....or if you find that difficult, take a class and make some new friends at the same time.
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Morgana
regular
Reged: 28/08/2003
Posts: 12278
Loc: East Coast
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I'd express my long term concerns slightly differently Lemain.... I think most people will continue to learn traditional navigation... its just that they'll never use it.... why would you if you were new to sailing today?... and then when they do need to use it, they'll have either forgotten how to do it, or will remember, but find the uncertainty very very discomforting!
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Bored?.... why not read my blog .... its the developing story of the trials and tribulations of boat ownership!
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moody1
regular
Reged: 10/12/2005
Posts: 379
Loc: Anywhere in N.Europe that boat...
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As with most polls the options are very limiting and cannot cover many set-ups.
For example we carry hubbnies Notebook for him to be able to still run his company while afloat. This does have chart plotting on it, but is rarely switched on. So I have discounted it. We carry two basic Hand GPS machines to sit in reserve should they be needed. Both of those and the main plotter have 12v supply cables so can run of the portable emergency power pack. The hh's of course also can use aa batterys.
We looked at aa battery life and felt that the power pack was a good idea. Portable, reasonable life which is far longer than aa's.
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Some of us Ladies may surprise you.
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havent_a_clue
regular
Reged: 20/02/2007
Posts: 565
Loc: West Sussex
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LeMain, which book would you reccommend and by the way, what can I use to mark an Admiralty Toughchart that will wipe off afterwards and where can I get such a thing? Sorry to ask, but I don't know. Many thanks.
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"Most people have some means of filling up the gap between perception & reality, and, after all, in those circumstances there are worse things than (put preferred vice here)".
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