john_morris_uk
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Reged: 03/07/2002
Posts: 3669
Loc: Plymouth UK
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Its not the existence of £60 GPS's that worries me, its peoples total reliance on them.
I think you are maybe overplaying the reliance. I have a plotter and backup gps, but am in no way reliant on them. I've been navigating by chart/map since I was 10, and have not lost those skills, and many I know are exactly the same. The convenience of a plotter or gps is very handy, but if they were taken away tomorrow, I wouldn't worry about it, I'd just have to work a bit harder at navigation.
I have no argument with your description - its probably what I would say as well (except we don't have a plotter and just use a GPS. Its the people who seem to be paranoid about losing their electronics that worry me. Its not the end of the world if you have some idea of what you are doing - as you say yourself.
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“When you discover that you are riding a dead horse,
the best strategy is to dismount.”
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john_morris_uk
regular
Reged: 03/07/2002
Posts: 3669
Loc: Plymouth UK
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Quote:
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Its not the existence of £60 GPS's that worries me, its peoples total reliance on them.
LOL! Wheras relying on wind up clock and a visible sky for your position is not worrying?
Sextants are not over the top compared to GPS they are completely ineffective!
When you navigate by traditional methods you don't always know exactly where you are. This isn't a problem if you have developed a healthy cynicism about the plot you put on the chart. This 'eye for navigation' is something that people who have always relied on GS don't always appreciate.
If you read my posts you will see that I DON'T rely on a sextant when sailing the channel. I even suggest that its not necessary. I happened to mention that I have a sextant on board. When I sail I use my GPS, the same as 99.9% of other people. However I am reasonably confident that in the even of the boat being hit by lightning or having a major electrical fire, I will carry on navigating with my Compass paper charts and Walker log.
As it happens, I also have a mechanical chronometer which is very reliable. Not sure why you think its a joke but I don't rely on that either - and I don't know what point you are making. I could even find my latitude without a watch, but so what? In the channel, after a few hours sailing you are going to reach some land. Knowing which bit of land takes a bit of skill if you haven't got a GPS. My worry is not that people rely on electronics, but that they seem to be paranoid about the possibility of the electronics failing. If they do fail, its good seamanship to be prepared.
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“When you discover that you are riding a dead horse,
the best strategy is to dismount.”
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WindFinder
regular
Reged: 03/03/2008
Posts: 291
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So whatever point you had evaporates into thin air.
You use GPS to get an accurate position because it's the only effective way of getting an accurate fix out of sight of land since Decca went. If you lost the GPS you'd manage to struggle on without without too much drama.
Just like everyone, except a lot more self righteous.
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5542
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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Have you been on the juice today? Bit early.
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My daily blog on the current financial crisis is at:- http://davidscompass.blogspot.com No PMs for now ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com
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Marsupial
regular
Reged: 05/07/2004
Posts: 580
Loc: South and East UK
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What a great thread!
If nothying else it has raised the awareness of the need to "be able to navigate" and let's hope its made a few people think. Just a thought but there are a couple of places I have been (not round the UK) where the use of electronic nav aids is "not advised" because the charts are all wrong and if, for example, on a moonless night you set of west thinking the land is behind you - its not its in front of you - and if you survive till morning you can count the wrecks on the reef!
My hope for tghe future is that the electronics gets better and eventually delivers the service the manufacturers currently claim, in the mean time we navigate with lots of things and as many have noted anxiety increases when the electronics goes phutt. But when it does that standard of lookout goes up!
Just one question to the GPS masses that dont carry paper charts, if your electronic plotter capability does fail (including all the redundancy) on a moonless night far off shore how will you know what nav mark you have found - assuming you find one and even if you have a compass how will you know which course to steer?
My answer to that question is the rational that maintains the chart collection on our boat - just curious thats all.
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Captainslarty
regular
Reged: 12/08/2007
Posts: 2012
Loc: Currently La Coruna Spain
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Hi me little Marsupial...
Firstly - I CANNOT begin to imagine a scenario where the whole system fails inc redundancy...
But, you asked, so .  .. 'far offshore' heave to and sleep, fix it in the morning, no worries. more likely fire up a laptop and take a peek.. or, get the last position log from the gps loggers on a backup battery, transfer it to Encarta world atlas 
As I said in another post.. if you KNOW you can fix the electrical system - whatever happens - and you have the redundancy - its not on the scale of anything to lose sleep about.
Joe
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PM me for info re SSB's etc. Bought, sold, repaired, fitted and optimised.
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john_morris_uk
regular
Reged: 03/07/2002
Posts: 3669
Loc: Plymouth UK
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Quote:
So whatever point you had evaporates into thin air.
You use GPS to get an accurate position because it's the only effective way of getting an accurate fix out of sight of land since Decca went. If you lost the GPS you'd manage to struggle on without without too much drama.
Just like everyone, except a lot more self righteous.
As you have now lost me totally, can you explain what you mean? What point has evaporated? I have no idea what point you are trying to argue for.
I still get worried that people have back-ups for their back-ups of plotters or GPS. I use the electronic gizmo's all the time, but I know that I can manage without. Can someone explain why you would want to have back-ups of back-ups of back-us, with a hand-held GPS wrapped in silver foil in the oven just in case? If the electronics are as reliable as most people seem to think that they are, why the paranoia?
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“When you discover that you are riding a dead horse,
the best strategy is to dismount.”
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Marsupial
regular
Reged: 05/07/2004
Posts: 580
Loc: South and East UK
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Quote:
Hi me little Marsupial...
Firstly - I CANNOT begin to imagine a scenario where the whole system fails inc redundancy...
Fine if by fix you mean jury rig but as one old salt to another, for your own saftey please "imagine it" because it does happen and my previous post about space shuttles was to emphasize the point that modern systems are not designed to fail safe in as much as they dont leave the user with a workable senario and most often are they not repairable by mere mortals even those with knowledge and a box of tools.
Name any component and its failed at some time - hell, I even had a case of a vhf mike that distorted in the sun and rendered the coms system useless (that fault took some findinmg I can tell you) but we arranged flag and light signals with port control should it happen again (redundancy from Nelson!) - the list is endless . . . . DECCA what a joy that was - never really sure it was working and at dusk we went supersonic!
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Lemain
regular
Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5542
Loc: Fiumicino canal (Rome, Italy)
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Quote:
Firstly - I CANNOT begin to imagine a scenario where the whole system fails inc redundancy...
LIGHTNING Of course you should still be left with handhelds if they had been off and disconnected at the time but you would not have a 'system' left.
If you listen to accident investigators you will see that accidents nearly always occur after a series of problems which in themselves would not have caused the accident. They don't happen very often but they do happen.
How about a lightning strike that causes a fire in the section where all of your electronics toys (like handhelds) are kept? Suppose you'd discharged your (poxy useless dry powder) extinguishers and the fire was still smouldering so you start pouring water on it. The fire is out. You sift through the steaming mess and retrieve your handheld and find that it won't work. You're not going to get your toolkit out and try to fix it...it's kaput. What wasn't damaged by the fire has been damaged by the water.
I'm not saying that charts are any more immune to accidents but let's focus on your contention that multiple redundancy will make total failure almost impossible. It won't. You can put in three entirely separate systems and you will still have total outages. Murphy guarantees that you probably have rather more outages than anyone else - he does this to prove to you that you can't outsmart him!
The more complicated the systems, the more problems you will have. I guarantee it.
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My daily blog on the current financial crisis is at:- http://davidscompass.blogspot.com No PMs for now ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com
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Captainslarty
regular
Reged: 12/08/2007
Posts: 2012
Loc: Currently La Coruna Spain
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Hi David and Marsupial..
hee hee, all good points.. but .. there is always a but lol..
No lightening strike would take out ALL systems - because, as you say - the backups are not connected to any bus system.
Even the backup 3500c plotter is in a box ! - not even fitted - tested, yes - then stowed. out of the way of water. along with an independent sd card).
Perhaps a neutron bomb - or a high level muti megaton blast would wipe the lot out via EMP.. but I would have a tad more to worry about in that case.
Fire, that took out all systems would sink me too.. - so unless the liferaft and grab bag burnt as well, then the etrex, spare batteries and epirb would still be ok.
It actually is about risk management nothing more.. I had the pleasure of becoming a 'Prince2 practitioner whilst in NHS management of IT, this is superb Risk management qualification. and that, again, is what its all about.
The fire or the powder or the water may well take out all your paper charts too... hmmm.
I will again, sorry, repeat that redundant systems are not thrown in, they are designed, with all the above acceptable eventualities in mind - AND the ability to fix the main items - supply and charging in this case - and then drop back to backups.
I DO have graph paper and pencils, and my Davies Mk25 and table and Bluets book... but more for nostalgia and show lol..
Also, books, pilot charts, pilot guides etc.. the pilot charts alone are fine along with a pencil.
It also depends on the type of person you are - methodical approach etc
Cost, well thats a killer for many - the biggest expense is the E120 - but that was from the USA - a grand uk delivered..
I repair marine electronics and buy and sell them - my RM 300 - great gps unit - cost me nada, seriously - just a repair needed after it had been reversed polaxed - the 3500c I had before the E120 so kept it (I had two of them lol, but sold one as the redundancy was not ample - due to the same nav cartridge !)
All the wiring and charging systems I fit myself - with redundancy in mind !.. and I DO have lightening protection - but that is NOT relied on...
Most fires on boats (not inc petrol) are caused by wiring problems - mainly lack of adequate fuses and chafe. EVERY time a wire changes size, it should be fused. it is here.. I did it.
I have auto extinguishers in the under deck bay, access holes for manual injection. and apx (Cant be bothered to count them) 10 B&Q abc extinguishers - in lazerette, cockpit lockers, under cockpit area cabins -etc etc
and YES, I CAN navigate by 'traditional' methods.
I think now, we should have thread about emergency medical treatment on board - offshore - NOT just first aid - which is precisely that - FIRST aid - in a more serious occurrence - what 'backup' have you got ?.. by the time you call up for help AND it arrives - the patient may well be dead or WILL die later -
Again, it is having the equipment, the knowledge to use it, the confidence to use it and redundancy - for example skipper n wife - very common - accident to skipper - what does wife do ?. often all eggs in one basket .
People who DO travel offshore - even inshore to be fair - in boats - should be as self sufficient as is humanly possible. Calling for assistance should literally be the absolute last resort. too often it isnt.. anyways I digress. and, I like electronics, and toys. 
Actually the BIGGEST problem with paper charts is not fire, flood, wind blowing them away, out of date corrections, rot, mould or disintegration.. it is called Molly. not Murphy.
She will happily eat any paper chart.. and as she's part of the boat - the paper has to go.. Little bugger she is.
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PM me for info re SSB's etc. Bought, sold, repaired, fitted and optimised.
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