Morgana
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Reged: 28/08/2003
Posts: 12199
Loc: East Coast
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Following Lemain's interesting thread regarding the use of paper charts as a back up, and the mention of backup plotters, I thought it would be interesting to get a view on how much redundancy people have on board (excluding paper charts!)
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Galadriel
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Reged: 19/01/2004
Posts: 5838
Loc: Chichester Harbour
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What you dont ask, is if there is any paper back up. One of my two plotters is a Yeoman, so in the unlikely event etc.....
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"You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today
And then one day you find ten years have got behind you"
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Morgana
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Reged: 28/08/2003
Posts: 12199
Loc: East Coast
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In the preamble above though I did mention that this was about electronic redundancy, and independant of paper charts....
What i'm trying to get a feel for, is how much backup people have for their electronic navigation environment.....
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oilyrag
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Reged: 03/07/2002
Posts: 295
Loc: E Coast UK
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I, and I guess many others, have a plotter with a handheld battery powered GPS as backup...
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jordanbasset
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Reged: 31/12/2007
Posts: 158
Loc: Shropshire
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Besides possible length of time battery may last in a laptop are there any other reasons you have excluded them
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"Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza."
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Morgana
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Reged: 28/08/2003
Posts: 12199
Loc: East Coast
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Nope that was the main reason.... but actually I was interested in independent battery systems...
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Bored?.... why not read my blog .... its the developing story of the trials and tribulations of boat ownership!
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Oldhand
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Reged: 21/02/2002
Posts: 1776
Loc: UK, S.Coast
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Does a pencil wielding hand count as a back up plotter?
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Lemain
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Reged: 31/01/2004
Posts: 5291
Loc: Mediterranean France, cruising...
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I know how hard it is to draft surveys but you missed an important point that the map ROM might be the item that goes wrong. I have two C-Map cartridge plotters but I only keep the one set on C-Map cartridges so if that fails I am stuck. I carry paper charts, though, so we ought to survive.
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I have turned off PMs for the cruising season, instead please email to ybw1.20.lemain@spamgourmet.com If you recently sent me an email to ybw.20.... I will not have received it as it got spammed-out and expired. The new address is ybw1.20.... as above
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BrendanS
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Reged: 11/06/2002
Posts: 35452
Loc: Me: Wilts. Boat: Lymington
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My main plotter runs off boat battery, but also has internal battery that will be recharged fully and run for hours if boat battery fails. With backup hand held gps. Also have paper charts which I'm more than comfortable using if gps system should fail completely. If gps system hasn't gone down completely, I'd use the plotter internal battery to get me where I need to be, or if too far away, turn it off to save battery, and turn it on every half hour to plot position to check against dead reckoning, and still have hand held in reserve. The batteries would last longer than my fuel used this way.
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Marsupial
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Reged: 05/07/2004
Posts: 546
Loc: South and East UK
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Agreed, I ve been on boats motor and sail where everything is lost, no power, no leccy of any sort. I ve seen laptops hard discs fail on voyage, solid state plotter displays just stop working, auto pilots that steer their own course and on one memorable voyage along the south coast in a state of the art all singing and dancing mobo with a massive array of gizmos and toys our position was plotted on the A25 near gatwick airport - but only for a mile or so then we were off Dieppe fortunatley a few minutes later the hard drive failed (by the way the charts were correctly aligned with datums its just that marine leisure equipment is basically cr*p) so MY YEOMAN SPORT TOOK OVER connected via the ciggy socket with a garmin 12XL assisted by my plastimo handbearing compass - (it was a maiden voyage so I went equiped, was it difficult no did we need a plotter?, not really; most of the time you just concentrate on keeping the UK on the right when going west along the channel but it emphasize the fallabiity of "electronics" and talk of redundancy is meaningless if the single point of failure is a component in a distant satelite).
Do I use plotters yes of course - do I trust them - get a life!
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eastcoastbernie
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Reged: 28/07/2006
Posts: 771
Loc: Me: Cambs Boat: SYH Levington
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It amuses me how people reckon smugly they have every option covered. All you can do is make sensible provision and hope it is enough.
I have paper charts and no hard-wired navigation instruments. I can tell where I am using traditional methods of eyeball, handbearing compass, depth. My handheld gps works off batteries which give several hours' life. I carry a load of spare batteries. My handheld plotter works when plugged into the 12v, or off rechargeable batteries, or, failing that, off alkaline batteries. I also carry a jump start with me which can be used to charge plotter, or charge vhf or start the engine. I carry basic engine spares including impellor and fan belt.
I regard all these as sensible precautions. But it doesn't mean I ever think nothing could go wrong.
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TigaWave
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Reged: 17/12/2004
Posts: 1715
Loc: Buckland Monachorum
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much of the concern seems to be leaning towards the risk of power failure/alternative batteries. In practice it's the electronics that fail more frequently. The handheld water proof back up in the drawer that has hardly been used since new with new batteries, and the fixed gps antenea on the pushpit that suffers wave damage, all the electronics were in the antenea. And then thirdly the older hand held water proof in the chart table as moisture from heavy rain gets in and blanks the screen.
three independant systems to nothing in 2 hours, fortunately I'd printed of the charts from my laptop plotter during the first few hours of the passage.
Back to DR or sextant!
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www.H4Marine.com
www.sailonline.org www.sailport.se
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john_morris_uk
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Reged: 03/07/2002
Posts: 3610
Loc: Plymouth UK
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There wasn't a tick box for no plotter and some spare pencils in case my 3B breaks or gets lost. I admit that I don't carry spare charts - just the ones we are using, but there again the batteries have never run out on them either.
On a more serious note, Our electronics (GPS Wind Depth Log Autopilot) all come off the same battery bank. If we had catastrophic battery/electronic failure then we still have a compass, a mechanical (Walker) trailing log to stream, and a hand held compass, with all the relevantr tide tables and the paper charts we were on in the first place. All of these work without battery power and we would have to go back to hand steering. (I don't even carry an 'emergency' or spare handheld GPS. I do carry a sextant and tables as well, which is a bit over the top for the channel...)
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TigaWave
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Reged: 17/12/2004
Posts: 1715
Loc: Buckland Monachorum
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On the spare chart front I would usually print off two copies of charts that were needed, one set would stay at the chart table and the other would be in the cockpit in plastic sleeves!
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www.H4Marine.com
www.sailonline.org www.sailport.se
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tiggertoo
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Reged: 23/08/2005
Posts: 1224
Loc: UK
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Quote:
I admit that I don't carry spare charts - just the ones we are using, but there again the batteries have never run out on them either.
Are you sure about this John? I bet you have some of those admiralty folios. In a sense this has backup, because you usually get quite a bit of overlap. Even if not at the same scale. 
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john_morris_uk
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Reged: 03/07/2002
Posts: 3610
Loc: Plymouth UK
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Whoops I was editing and adding to my post.
I suppose that there is a bit (lot?) of overlap in the charts that we carry, but I started off being a bit tongue in cheek and then decided to be serious.
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“When you discover that you are riding a dead horse,
the best strategy is to dismount.”
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john_morris_uk
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Reged: 03/07/2002
Posts: 3610
Loc: Plymouth UK
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Quote:
On the spare chart front I would usually print off two copies of charts that were needed, one set would stay at the chart table and the other would be in the cockpit in plastic sleeves!
We don't usually take charts into the cockpit, but I admit that our chart of the Morbihan is looking a bit ragged. Pilotage there is so fast and furious that we end up taking it up top and having one of us steering and one of with plotter and handbearing compass managing the chart.
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“When you discover that you are riding a dead horse,
the best strategy is to dismount.”
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tiggertoo
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Reged: 23/08/2005
Posts: 1224
Loc: UK
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am I the only one resisting the urge of electrifying my navigation? OK, I do have GPS (2), but I actually like the feel of pencil and paper. I get enough VDU at work...
Not a purist really... just stingy perhaps!
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john_morris_uk
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Reged: 03/07/2002
Posts: 3610
Loc: Plymouth UK
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Well reading these posts, it seems that there are two of us at least. And I only have one GPS... I don't want to get into a competition as to who has the hairiest shirt, but again on a more serious note, I do get slightly anxious about people who feel the need to have backups for their backups for their electronic aids and instruments.
I know that our instruments are normally of the battery powered type, but as explained we do have backups for total power loss/lightning strike. (I forgot to put lead-line in the list in my previous post)
A paper chart, a chip-log, a compass, with a spanner on a long length of string and some knots in it for depth might get you home quite well if all else fails. You do need to know more or less where you are to start with. You also have to have practiced using a tidal stream atlas and remember the old tricks of 'aiming off' to know which way to turn when you get into soundings.
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“When you discover that you are riding a dead horse,
the best strategy is to dismount.”
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tiggertoo
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Reged: 23/08/2005
Posts: 1224
Loc: UK
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No hair shirts at all.. in fact I regard electronic aids and PC as pretty hairy, given the aggro we get with them in my "real life" on land.
I am curious about the "aiming off" bit: what do you mean by this?
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Captainslarty
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Reged: 12/08/2007
Posts: 2012
Loc: Currently La Coruna Spain
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The old methods are well, just old, nowadays, and a lot of hype is used sometimes re reliability.
These days there is absulutely no reason NOT to use all electronic navigation if you have redundancy AND the skills to fix the issues that may arise - and of course, alternative charging systems.
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john_morris_uk
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Reged: 03/07/2002
Posts: 3610
Loc: Plymouth UK
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I don't have a problem with using electronic systems for navigation. In fact I use them all the time. I don't happen to use a plotter, but I do use a GPS. That's not the point.
I get worried when people are so reliant on them that they have layers of redundancy built in to make sure that they think that they can never be challenged by a paper chart, a log compass and tide tables. Why the paranoia with some people? Modern electronics are very reliable, but should you really be at sea if you are frightened by the thought of the electronics giving up the ghost?
Surely having another means of navigation is just good seamanship even if you use the electronics 99.9% of the time.
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“When you discover that you are riding a dead horse,
the best strategy is to dismount.”
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Marsupial
regular
Reged: 05/07/2004
Posts: 546
Loc: South and East UK
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Yes you're right, but I find it very difficult to steer a reliable course towing the space shuttle.
and try as a we might towing with the engine on full chat and all the sails up, Dungeoness B is still firmly attached to the land so I need a lighter alternative charging device or an even longer shore power cable, not to mention the half a yard of sand I carry to manufacture new chips as and when they fail.
SWIMBO reckons a chart case is lighter than the multihead mill we have in the galley to make the moulds for the plotter cases but naaa I'll get rid of the plastic extruding machine before I part with THAT!
Had some difficulty creating a dust free environment to repair hard disks till we realised that we could launch the space shuttle and the astronaughts could carry out the repair while on a space walk in between repairing GPS satalites.
we know how to sail!!!!!!!
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CBT
regular
Reged: 16/02/2005
Posts: 237
Loc: UK
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Oh dear!! Your poll and some of the responses ( and lots of other threads on these forums ) does confirm what I fear. That is that we are gradually becoming enslaved by our technology. I speak as someone who uses all of it - ashore as well as afloat - but I reserve the right to regret the trend just a bit! Are we being enslaved by this forum and the technology that runs it? - I am off to have a lie down. 
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Morgana
regular
Reged: 28/08/2003
Posts: 12199
Loc: East Coast
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Urm.....
OK..... interesting responses....
It strikes me that most of the respondees are 'old salts' who have sailed for long enough to have terrorised the seven seas long before the advent of the dear old GPS, let alone the plotter..... I count myself amongst that group...
My concern is still for a while in the future, and that is when the 'average owner' (whatever that is) has never experienced sailing without electronics, and for whom DR and EP's are just something that was experienced in a classroom 20years ago, and have never been used in anger.....
But it is still interesting that a substantial percentage of people on here are sufficiently attached to electronic navigation that they have extensive redundancy..... hard to argue as a bad thing, but perhaps worrying for a future sailing generation.....
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Bored?.... why not read my blog .... its the developing story of the trials and tribulations of boat ownership!
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WindFinder
regular
Reged: 03/03/2008
Posts: 291
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Quote:
I do carry a sextant and tables as well, which is a bit over the top for the channel...)
Over the top? Are you kidding? It's totally inadequate. It's far more vulnerable to breakage than a £60 waterproof GPS from Millets and half the time it's cloudy and there's nothing to get a fix on at all.
The biggest joke is that you seem to be claiming your sextant is not electronic yet since quartz watches you will almost certainly be relying on an electronic watch to tell the time. Unless you are going to claim that a clockwork watch is more reliable?
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WindFinder
regular
Reged: 03/03/2008
Posts: 291
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Quote:
It strikes me that most of the respondees are 'old salts' who have sailed for long enough to have terrorised the seven seas long before the advent of the dear old GPS, let alone the plotter..... I count myself amongst that group...
I'm not that old but I sailed in the Decca days and found it far worse than GPS in every way. And so expensive loads of people didn't even bother.
GPS is so good that a good Landfall is considered almost inevitable and no longer even remarked upon!
GPS rocks. If you'd told yachtsmen before WW2 that they could buy on the high street a device giving a (usually) cast Iron accurate position updated in real time for the price of a pub dinner for 2 they'd have snapped it up.
The chart issues is slightly different to GPS. You could argue about your preferred chart format forever. I like paper charts purely because of the large 'screen size', but then if I had to buy worldwide charts I doubt I could even afford all paper.
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Morgana
regular
Reged: 28/08/2003
Posts: 12199
Loc: East Coast
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I don't disagree.... give me the choice of having or not having GPS and I know which i'd choose!.... I was merely making the point that in a few years time, there will be a generation of sailors who have never approached a coast desperately watching for something to get a fix from....... and when their electronics fail, it will be such an alien experience that i'm not sure they'll know how to deal with it!
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Bored?.... why not read my blog .... its the developing story of the trials and tribulations of boat ownership!
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WindFinder
regular
Reged: 03/03/2008
Posts: 291
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Quote:
when their electronics fail, it will be such an alien experience that i'm not sure they'll know how to deal with it!
Why? It's not rocket science.
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Morgana
regular
Reged: 28/08/2003
Posts: 12199
Loc: East Coast
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nope.... its not rocket science because many of us have used the techniques extensively over the years..... but if you've never had to work your way into a coastline without absolute certainty before, it would I imagine be quite frightening...... Don't you remember the first time you went out of sight of land on DR?.... the relief of getting a proper fix again was quite a thing...... this would have been on the back of having learned to trust your navigation over time doing coastal nav..... but imagine if that experience was the first time you'd ever navigated traditionally?......
Maybe i'm overplaying it (a little bit intentionally), but just trying to make a point...
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Bored?.... why not read my blog .... its the developing story of the trials and tribulations of boat ownership!
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WindFinder
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Reged: 03/03/2008
Posts: 291
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