monkey_trousers
regular
Reged: 02/01/2008
Posts: 103
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might not be the right place to ask this, but feel a bit more at home in here!
Help! can't work this one out at all at all
43 foot 6 boat. think I'm wrongly propped. 120hp ford lehmann, 1.5:1 box, max revs we can get is 1600, engine is rated max revs 2750 (cruising 1800)
at max revs we can get, slack water, no tide/current to push, we get about 6knots
previously she had a Kelvin k3 66hp at 300revs, dunno about box though, think the kelvin boxes were 1:1??
I have a suspicion that when she was re-engined they retained the old shaft and prop, been trying to do the sums to see if it is a logical conclusion that the big old kelvin prop for those revs would hold her back that much?? does that sound logical?
other alternative is I suppose there's a governor on the engine (how do they work then and where are they and how do you remove them!)
hull speed should be 9-10knots or so (I think!)
any ideas?? what should she be swinging with the ford at 2750 revs
she's coming out the water shortly so I'll be able to see what she currently swinging
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Converting a Converted MFV Fifie.
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markdj
regular
Reged: 31/07/2002
Posts: 673
Loc: Strangford Lough, Northern Ire...
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If you have the weight of the boat then give Andy a call at BT Marine Propellers.
I think there are also prop calculation software out on the net but not sure where.
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Peterduck
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Reged: 10/04/2002
Posts: 1032
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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Just looking up the graphs and nomograms in 'Skene's Elements of Yacht Design' I get a prop of 18" diameter x 12.5" pitch [by the short method]. If the current prop is close to that it can be modified. There are workshops which will do this. The pitch can be [carefully] changed,and it is quite remarkable how much difference a little bit off the tips of the blades will make to the performance of a prop.
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chrishelen
regular
Reged: 07/01/2007
Posts: 1328
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Hi monkey trousers, if you "google" prop pitch there are some good sites that do the calcs for you.
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Tranona
regular
Reged: 10/11/2007
Posts: 1549
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Just put Propeller calculations into Google and you will get lots of sites you can use yourself. You have all the necessary information. Do the sums to get a ball park size and then go to any propeller manufacturer and ask them for a quote - they will advise the recommended size and you will be able to check against your calculation.
Not reaching full revs suggests current prop is too big, probably in diameter if it is the original.
Hope this helps
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chrishelen
regular
Reged: 07/01/2007
Posts: 1328
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These prop pitch calc sites assume the engine is not clapped out.
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Peeriemaa
regular
Reged: 16/11/2005
Posts: 61
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You have increased the revs at the shaft by a factor of about three, so the propeller requires more torque than your engine can supply. The relationship is the slower the revs, the bigger the diameter and higher the efficiency of the prop. You will need to reduce the diameter of the prop, so do not be surprised if the prop design software you use drives you in that direction.
Nick
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gdallas
regular
Reged: 27/04/2002
Posts: 109
Loc: Hertfordshire
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I have a copy of Dave Ger's 'Propellor Handbook' that I'd pass on for a small RNLI donation. PM if interested
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monkey_trousers
regular
Reged: 02/01/2008
Posts: 103
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all up she's about 25 tons, and the engine has 380 hours on it, and starts an runs like new
I used http://www.castlemarine.co.uk/pitch.htm and bashed some numbers in and got an estimated hull speed of 8.5knots and a diameter/pitch figure, but I'm not convinced of my own abilities with the science of it all
fundamentally though, I feel there's something along the way that's not right, maybe its the old kelvin prop still, which is so big its holding her revs back, or the engine is governed to keep it back for some other reason?
need to get her hauled at as soon as we can to see what she's swinging down there and then do some more head scratching (an no doubt cheque book stretching) and get some one who knows what they are looking for to see if she does have a governor on the lump. As well as everything else she burnt a hell of a lot more diesel than I'd expected at 1500 revs on the trip back.
one mad alternative that presented itself today was the possibility of pulling the new fordy/borg warner box out and sticking a big old kelvin lump/box back in! Maybe flogging the fordy and box would pay for the kelvin to go back in!
logically that probably is an insane thing to do, but you know what, I can here that clickety clackety sound already!
historically, from the family that owned her way back when she was kelvin powered, they would get around 9knots from her (10 with a good shove from the tide) So the old girls has it in her somewhere along the lines
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Converting a Converted MFV Fifie.
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Tranona
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Reged: 10/11/2007
Posts: 1549
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It is unlikely to be the engine. If it goes up to full revs in neutral, that is until the governor limits it then there is nothing in theory to prevent it doing that under load.
Your symptoms are classic of being over propped. When you haul, compare what you have with what you have calculated you need. Then go along to a prop manufacturer such as Clements (there are many more) and ask for their recommendation and quote.
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monkey_trousers
regular
Reged: 02/01/2008
Posts: 103
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Quote:
Your symptoms are classic of being over propped. When you haul, compare what you have with what you have calculated you need. Then go along to a prop manufacturer such as Clements (there are many more) and ask for their recommendation and quote.
that frightens me in itself! buying a new a big bonze prop! ouch!
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Converting a Converted MFV Fifie.
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Tranona
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Reged: 10/11/2007
Posts: 1549
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Thats why you have a boat! If the job was not done properly when the new engine was put in, go back to whoever did it and give them hell!
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chrishelen
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Reged: 07/01/2007
Posts: 1328
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Have you ruled out the usual things for slowing a boat down, you have allready said the engine is in good nick so have you got a dirty bottom?is there a grassy growth on your waterline,barnacle growths? all will become clear at haul out,hopefully something simple.
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monkey_trousers
regular
Reged: 02/01/2008
Posts: 103
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Quote:
Have you ruled out the usual things for slowing a boat down, you have allready said the engine is in good nick so have you got a dirty bottom?is there a grassy growth on your waterline,barnacle growths? all will become clear at haul out,hopefully something simple.
pretty much, don'y think she's a dirty girl at all. was antifouled just over a year ago and was sat in freshwater in the caley all the time till we moved her
been some really good responses though, (as ever - thanks boys and girls), and reckon, it might be a combination of gearbox ratio and the old prop. new box and prop might do the trick...
but I can here that old kelvin clickety clicking in the back of my head though. who needs reliability and a good supply of spares when you can have an old boat that goes clickety click anyway! 
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Converting a Converted MFV Fifie.
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srp
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Reged: 10/05/2006
Posts: 1327
Loc: IoW
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Using Propcalc.xls (you should find it with Google) I get 18 x 9, or 17 x 12 as an alternative, to give you 8 knots That's by making a few assumptions along the way. I think I've read that 1" of diameter is equivalent to about 3" of pitch, which would explain the difference in the 2 sizes suggested. And it's not that different to the figures calculated by Peterduck earlier on in this thread, so it might serve as a starting point for you. It would be handy to know what size prop is actually fitted at the moment, but it sounds as though it will be a fairly large diameter one, which a high revving engine will struggle with.
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www.corribee.org
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monkey_trousers
regular
Reged: 02/01/2008
Posts: 103
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Quote:
Using Propcalc.xls (you should find it with Google) I get 18 x 9, or 17 x 12 as an alternative, to give you 8 knots That's by making a few assumptions along the way. I think I've read that 1" of diameter is equivalent to about 3" of pitch, which would explain the difference in the 2 sizes suggested. And it's not that different to the figures calculated by Peterduck earlier on in this thread, so it might serve as a starting point for you. It would be handy to know what size prop is actually fitted at the moment, but it sounds as though it will be a fairly large diameter one, which a high revving engine will struggle with.
need to get the underwater mystery resolved as soon as I think. only thing I've got to go on is an old pic I found, but I don't know if this was before or after the new engine went in, or even if this prop is still on it. this was when she was on the slip at macduff 6 years ago
http://bf494.co.uk/media/users/mark/66622.jpg
been trying to guess how big it is based on the standard scots workmans head unit of measurement!
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Converting a Converted MFV Fifie.
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DownWest
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Reged: 25/12/2007
Posts: 226
Loc: S.W. France
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All diesels have governers, forget about taking it off, essential part (and integral with) the injection pump. As said, if it revs in neutral and is in good nick as you say. then fine.
Andrew
Overpropping usually means lots of black smoke. Any sign?
Edited by DownWest (05/06/2008 07:47)
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monkey_trousers
regular
Reged: 02/01/2008
Posts: 103
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Quote:
All diesels have governers, forget about taking it off, essential part (and integral with) the injection pump. As said, if it revs in neutral and is in good nick as you say. then fine.
Andrew
Overpropping usually means lots of black smoke. Any sign?
hardly any black smoke at all when pressed hard.
all in all I think we have a combination of gearbox ratio being way way wrong, and having found some pics of her last time she was hauled out, the prop looks very small, so might have been put together to match the shaft speed from the box
in neutral she won't rev over about 1550, although the engine is rated for max HP at 2750
so the plan is new box, and new prop (double ouch!) with a 2.5 or 3 to 1 box we can get up to 24 28" prop at a shaft speed which is much more suited to the boat's design and then maybe get something like the hull speed
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Converting a Converted MFV Fifie.
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DownWest
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Reged: 25/12/2007
Posts: 226
Loc: S.W. France
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Hum- If it wonīt rev in neutral, then it isnīt going to rev in gear. I think you need to talk to the instalers. Just because the factory spec says 120hp/2750 rpm doesnt mean the throttle limit stop hasnīt been moved. The rpm is directly controled by this setting. Silly question: have you checked that the throttle lever has full travel? So it hits the stop.(it is on the injection pump)The lack of smoke might indicate this
Andrew
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monkey_trousers
regular
Reged: 02/01/2008
Posts: 103
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Quote:
Hum- If it wonīt rev in neutral, then it isnīt going to rev in gear. I think you need to talk to the instalers. Just because the factory spec says 120hp/2750 rpm doesnt mean the throttle limit stop hasnīt been moved. The rpm is directly controled by this setting. Silly question: have you checked that the throttle lever has full travel? So it hits the stop.(it is on the injection pump)The lack of smoke might indicate this
Andrew
did that by throwing the advance on the pump forward till it hit the stop from the engine room, with my other half in the wheelhouse watch the rev counter, so I really do think we are in 'governor' territory
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Converting a Converted MFV Fifie.
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DownWest
regular
Reged: 25/12/2007
Posts: 226
Loc: S.W. France
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Normally the throttle stop would have a seal put on by the injection engineer. You could reset it by a few threads and see if it alters the revs. Should do, but you might want a pro to look at it if this is the reason that it wonīt rev. These settings are usually done on the test bench, hence the seal.
Andrew
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chrishelen
regular
Reged: 07/01/2007
Posts: 1328
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Silly question,is your rev counter accurate?
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Peterduck
regular
Reged: 10/04/2002
Posts: 1032
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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If you're not getting the revs in neutral, is it possible that the engine is starving for air? If it's in a well-fitting engine box to keep the blighter quiet, this may be a possibility. Multiply the engine's capacity by the revs to get the number of litres of air used per minute. Divide this by 1000 to get the cubic metres of air; it will be impressive!
Peter.
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monkey_trousers
regular
Reged: 02/01/2008
Posts: 103
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don't know how accurate the rev counter but would guess reasonably so, its pretty new, and the engine doesn't sound like one doing 2500 rpm if that makes sense
as for its 'breathing', its sat in an engine room foot square 5 foot high, the inlet manifold has a breather pipe 6" in diameter leading out of the engine room through the deck to a vent box behind the wheelhouse, so its got plenty to suck on. I did try that possibility early on ad disconnected the inlet pipe from the manifold so it was sucking straight into the manifold from the volume of the engine room but made no difference. If it is governed I'm going nowhere near it! I want it serviced anyway so whoever is lucky enough o get that job(!) can advise hopefully
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Converting a Converted MFV Fifie.
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