Whitewater
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Reged: 14/04/2008
Posts: 108
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What's the difference between boat 2 stroke oil and motorcycle 2 stroke oil apart from the huge price difference. Would it harm an outboard being used in the sea if it had 2 stroke motorcycle oil instead of the dearer marine engine oil?
Edited by Fletcher14 (05/06/2008 16:37)
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PCUK
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Reged: 29/06/2005
Posts: 1983
Loc: Devon
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That's what I use and the 25 hp Suzuki is still going well after ten years use.
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KevB
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Reged: 04/07/2001
Posts: 5511
Loc: London
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I think marine 2 stroke oil is bio degradable so better for the fishes
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Nirvana
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Whitewater
regular
Reged: 14/04/2008
Posts: 108
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marine chandler has told me that it's VITAL to use marine oil and not motorcycle oil if I don't want problems with my engine. Having said that, he DOES sell marine 2 stroke oil so does he have a point or is he just looking after his sales of boat oil?
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timg
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Reged: 02/03/2005
Posts: 180
Loc: Isle of Wight
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I seem to remember the difference is
Marine oil synthetic mix
motor cycle not
Do not use motorbike 2 stroke in a modern 2 stroke you will ruin it as too thick.
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www.griffmarineservices.co.uk
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KevB
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Reged: 04/07/2001
Posts: 5511
Loc: London
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And I didn't know THIS
"A one-hour ride on a boat with a 10-horsepower traditional two-stroke engine emits the same amount of hydrocarbon pollution as driving a modern automobile 40,000km (25,000 miles)."
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Nirvana
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DAKA
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Reged: 07/01/2005
Posts: 3661
Loc: Nomadic
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TCW III oil (marine) is a higher grade.
Apparently the difference is the greater temperature differences in the cylinder.
Red hot then has ice cold seawater thrown on it.
Probably get away with motorcycle 2T oil in warmer summer waters.
Some out boards are air cooled, there should be no reason why they can not run on motorcycle oil.
In France you can but Total TCW III cheap as standard motorcycle oil , just the UK swindlers that charge more they have such a low turn over they need 300% mark up .
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Take a tour of Felix
Lazy Git's search engine
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DAKA
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Reged: 07/01/2005
Posts: 3661
Loc: Nomadic
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I think you need to show this to Chichester Harbour conservation
clearly all two strokes are 300% cleaner at max revs.
RIBs and tenders should be encouraged to navigate at 'best speed '
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Take a tour of Felix
Lazy Git's search engine
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kds
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Reged: 21/11/2002
Posts: 1508
Loc: Somerset
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My local marine repair man says it is to do with the fact that marine engines run at much lower operating temperatures than motor cycles and need a different spec. oil.
ken
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PCUK
regular
Reged: 29/06/2005
Posts: 1983
Loc: Devon
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Marine = rip-off
Marine 'Engineer' = liar
Remember these simple rules and you won't go far wrong!
Cynical! what me guv'?
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Grumpy_0_G
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Reged: 09/01/2005
Posts: 607
Loc: South Coast
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One of the things often conveniently forgotten when comparing 2 and 4 strokes is that you have to get rid of the 4 stroke's oil after it's been changed. This is, of course, carefully disposed of in the appropriate waste oil receptacle, from whence it is taken away and, ironically, burnt usually.
I'm sure that claim re: Hydrocarbons is true if comparing a Seagull to a new VW Polo, but I'm not sure it's so accurate if it's a recent non-ETEC 2 stroke and a modern Bentley Continental for example.
I wouldn't doubt a 4 stroke is cleaner to run but I'd have thought that, with a little bit of development, a 2 stroke could get very close, especially if you factor in the overall environmental impact, not just the exhaust while it's running.
As an aside, regarding their comments about inefficient running at low speed, Chris-craft are now selling a launch with a hybrid drive. Most of the time it's a conventional diesel outdrive but, when you come into the Marina area, you switch over to what seems to be an out-sized starter motor to run at low speeds. The idea is that you don't need to use the diesel when it's at it's most polluting (i.e. tickover and just above).
Hybrid boat waves hello to S.F. Bay
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MVP
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Reged: 05/09/2007
Posts: 67
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I recently bought a Ryobi strimmer - in says explicitly not to use marine 2 stroke oil, nothing about not using motorcycle oil, so I guess there must be a difference.
R.e used engine oil for 4 strokes - our motor mechanic loves the stuff, he has a workshop heater that burns it - good on-site recycling
MVP
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Whitewater
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Reged: 14/04/2008
Posts: 108
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Some good answers to this but I'm still unsure as to whether normal m/c 2 stroke oil would actually damage my engine or whether it's all a blag.
You may think I'm being cynical, but look at all the money spent on software to deal with the year 2000 bug!!!
There's definately a mark up on anything related to boats. I've seen some products double in price soley because they have a little picture of a boat on it, yet apart from the little boaty on it it's the identical item to the one in Halfords at half the price.
Remember the Leapord rechargable lamp 15 years ago? 3 variations.
A blue one with a pic of a yacht on it....RRP £95
A green one with pic of fish on it....RRP £49
A black one with a pic of a spanner on it RRP£14.99
Same lamp. Same spec. Same name. Same inners. Same manufacturer. Just different colours & pics.
Hmmm, doesn't that remind you of 2 stroke oil?????? Colour it blue, stick a pic of a boat on the label and charge 3 times the normal price.
But then again, maybe motorcycle oil 'does' damage boat engines and is it worth chancing it?
If the oil is the same (like the leapord lamp) it's blatant robbery (but legal marketing as we saw with the leapord lamp).
So what is actually IN the oil? Can someone say 'Oooh, but marine oil has such or such in it which is vital'
I'm keen to protect the environment but to be honest I think that the amount of petrol, grease and other stuff my boat puts in the water, 2 stroke is....well...a drop in the ocean! Especially when looking at what big ferries, sewer pipes, factories etc are putting in.
Please don't think I'm a moaner. I just don't like being taken for a ride but neither do I like being a fool and wrecking a good engine.
If we were talking cars not boats, trading standards would be looking into it and we'd know one way or another. But ripping off boaters is seemingly ok to the vast majority.
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DAKA
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Reged: 07/01/2005
Posts: 3661
Loc: Nomadic
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technically the marine oil represents better value, it is not subject to VAT .
But you will struggle to find someone who has a procedure in place to accommodate vat free 2T oil.
4T Castrol boat oil can be bought vat free
TCW III oil (marine 2T oil) is a higher grade.
Apparently the difference is the greater temperature differences in the cylinder.
Red hot then has ice cold seawater thrown on it.
Probably get away with motorcycle 2T oil in warmer summer waters
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Whitewater
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Reged: 14/04/2008
Posts: 108
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That's very imformative but an important word you use is 'apparently'! We were told 'apparently' that all our computers would break down if we didn't have YK2 software and being told 'apparently' marine oil copes with a greater range of temperatures rings similar, particularly as it's always someone who sells the stuff that says it. If it's true, why doesn't it say that on the bottle? It certainly wouldn't hold back any sales if they put it on the bottle so why wouldn't they? If it were untrue, they certainly wouldn't put it on the bottle as they could be sued.
I once scrutenised the COSH safety data sheets of a bottle of normal 2T and marine 2T. These legal sheets which any supplier HAS to provide on demand, detail all ingrediants and amounts. The 2 different oils had exactly the same in the same amounts. What I was searching for was an ingrediant in one that wasn't in the other. I found none!
I'm still waiting for someone to say something like marine oil contains poly-such-or-such which marine engines need.
Maybe I'll be waiting forever 
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burgundyben
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Reged: 28/11/2002
Posts: 1977
Loc: Hamble
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I pout engine oil in my seagull outboard and its running fine and has been for years.
I rode a Lambretta for a long time and when short of 2T oil either engine oil or gearbox oil went in, never did it any harm.
I guess it depends on the value of the engine and on how hard you run it.
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Wiggo
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Reged: 10/09/2003
Posts: 3467
Loc: (State, Country, etc.)
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I think that just summed it up. If it's an old Tohatsu 3.5, then I wouldn't worry about using motorbike 2T but I wouldn't use it in an e-Tec 250...
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The nicest thing about not planning is that failure comes as a complete surprise, and is not preceded by a period of worry and doubt.
Nereid Charter
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maxi77
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Reged: 11/11/2007
Posts: 857
Loc: Kingdom of Fife
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I must admit that I have used whatever 2 T oil was to hand, though that was on 50:1 engines, perhaps the more modern 100:1 engines are a trifle more sensitive.
Certainly I would not wory that much with the older engines which ran on 25:1 or 10:1.
My present wory is will it be OK to put a standard multigrade in my very old PRM gearbox rather than the SAE 30 specified.
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Peter
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No_Regrets
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Reged: 09/07/2007
Posts: 1392
Loc: Welwyn Garden City, Herts UK.
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I'll run somebody elses engine on any old oil.
My Mariner gets Quicksilver. No problems, No doubts, and no stupid threads on any forums.
Is it really worth saving a few pennys up front, while risking potential engine damage, or shortening your expensive outboards longevity, while harming marine life with non-marine oil?
Is it? 
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The scourge of Windsor, and notorious founder member of the 'Upper Thames Birchwood Massive' now outlawed by the EA and River pressure groups, currently planning a nice comfy retirement in the aft cabin of a Broom.
Now can anybody recommend any non-marking slippers?
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Whitewater
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Reged: 14/04/2008
Posts: 108
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Pennies? A few quid for every hour of motoring more like! At this moment in time though, I'll keep using marine oil, but I think it's worth looking into the subject purely on the principle of the matter. Oil developed for boats = worth every penny, oil merely priced up for boats = thievery.
Magellan and Garmin fit something in their GPS's so that you can't use aircraft charts in them unless you specifically buy an aircraft version GPS which accepts their aircraft charts & they charge 3 times more for those GPS's (apart from that no difference), so you see there's a lot of this going on.
I might even write to a marine oil manufacturer and directly ask what's in it that makes it better for boats than normal oil.
After all, I'm only asking what's in it that I'm paying extra for. It's not much to ask, is it?!
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No_Regrets
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Reged: 09/07/2007
Posts: 1392
Loc: Welwyn Garden City, Herts UK.
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Fully synthetic marine oil is biodegradable, so the only choice really, but also has added chemicals to inhibit corrosion, octane boosters to protect against poor quality fuel (Prevent pinging) and will mix at lower temperatures.
How much is a new engine, or major repair going to cost caused by incorrect oil on a high performance engine?
Feeling lucky punk? 
I know Seagulls etc run on any old crap, but a serious engine will simply work better, last longer and kill less fish if run on the right stuff.
Buy it in bulk to save money. I can get Putoline TT Aqua Bio at trade if it helps... 
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The scourge of Windsor, and notorious founder member of the 'Upper Thames Birchwood Massive' now outlawed by the EA and River pressure groups, currently planning a nice comfy retirement in the aft cabin of a Broom.
Now can anybody recommend any non-marking slippers?
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gjgm
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Reged: 14/03/2002
Posts: 2963
Loc: hythe marina
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well, the numbers seem extraordinary, but then I dont know whether hydrocarbon pullution is the whole story. Something seems very odd about running an small outboard for an hour, and running a family car for two years. Doesnt seem to make sense to me.
Similarly, 20,000 tonnes of hydrocarbon pollutions sounds huge, but then if we are talking about the whole north sea and atmosphere, is it? Or is it miniscule?
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masaccio
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Reged: 23/02/2005
Posts: 520
Loc: London
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According to one article I read, this research has been pretty much discredited (worst-case-scenario old technology v best-case-scenario new technology). Modern two-strokes are lean-burn direct-injection jobbies that are almost as fuel-efficient, and produce lower emissions, than the equivalent four-stroke. Aprilia recently produced a two-stroke scooter that was cleaner than any four-stroke and which barely used any more fuel.
A four-stroke requires 20 percent more energy, and 35 percent more raw material, to manufacture than the equivalent two-stroke. Added to that, when you take into account the oil a four-stroke uses (which isn't included in its carbon footprint for some bizarre reason) the green credentials of the four-stroke aren't quite so impressive.
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http://web.mac.com/tomisitt
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Whitewater
regular
Reged: 14/04/2008
Posts: 108
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I can understand the pollution argument in a lake or river but in the ocean I'm not buying it! The amount of pollution coming from an outboard in the vastness of the ocean wouldn't kill a single fish. Just look at what the factories and power stations are pumping into the sea. Then add that to the big ships, sewers, etc and we're supposed to believe that outboard engines would come to even 0.01% of that?
On the damage to engines side of it, the post about a strimmer manual stating NOT to use marine oil is the first evidence I've seen so far that there is anything in it that makes a difference.
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No_Regrets
regular
Reged: 09/07/2007
Posts: 1392
Loc: Welwyn Garden City, Herts UK.
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Well thats fairly obvious isn't it?
A strimmer engine is a tiny unit running very hot with air cooling usually compromised by fins full of grass clippings, while an outboard has unlimited amounts of cooling water, and is usually a car sized engine.
I can just imagine you trying to feed your pet Goat with Dogfood....Sheesh....
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The scourge of Windsor, and notorious founder member of the 'Upper Thames Birchwood Massive' now outlawed by the EA and River pressure groups, currently planning a nice comfy retirement in the aft cabin of a Broom.
Now can anybody recommend any non-marking slippers?
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Whitewater
regular
Reged: 14/04/2008
Posts: 108
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No need to be flippant 'No Regrets'. Yes obviously I do know the difference between a strimmer and an outboard. It's the difference between normal oil and marine oil I'm after.
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I love it when I'm boating.
Everything in between is just 'waiting'.
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Whitewater
regular
Reged: 14/04/2008
Posts: 108
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This brand claims their oil as ok for motorcycles, boats, chainsaws etc.
http://www.sunoco.nl/uk/PDF%20UK/Two%20Cycle%20TC-W3.pdf
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I love it when I'm boating.
Everything in between is just 'waiting'.
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Whitewater
regular
Reged: 14/04/2008
Posts: 108
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After much much googling I've come up with this. Marine oil is TC-W3 certified which means it's been tested for 100 hours non-stop in a marine engine. A non-marine oil (like motorcycle oil) has not been tested in a marine engine although might well be just as good as marine oil but without the TC-W3 certificate, you take a chance and if it's wrong can damage your outboard. However, there are some non-marine 2T oils (such as some motorcycle oils) that have TC-W3 on the bottle and are therefore TC-W3 certifield and these oils are likely to be also sold in a different bottle as boat oil and at a marked up price. So if it says TC-W3 on the bottle it's ok for your boat and if it doesn't....well you don't know as it's not been tested.
I have enough marine oil to last me the rest of the year but I was intrigued to know what it was all about 
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No_Regrets
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Reged: 09/07/2007
Posts: 1392
Loc: Welwyn Garden City, Herts UK.
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OK, as a two stroke Motorcycle engineer, I may appea rflippant, but I have suffered nearly two decades of listening to 'Raiders of the lost Ark' ignoring simple instructions in a weird quest to prove some pointless point.
There are basically three types of Two stroke oil:
Mineral...This is run-of-the-mill (Usually SAE30) oil and leaves deposits galore. No modern engine should use this crap.
Semi Synthetic...This is the same thing but with added chemicals which aid combustion and hence clean up the carbon deposits. I avoid this, as it's still Mineral oil.
Fully synthetic...Is made from Esters, a bit like WD40, and burns cleaner, as it's not Mineral oil. Good quality synthetic lubricants usually have octane boosters to keep the piston crown in good shape, and leave vitually no deposits (Which grind away at your engine) so boost engine life several times over!
The Sunoco oil which is 'suitable for anything' is in fact utter crap I wouldn't run a rented chinese Generator on.
Now, is that unflippant enough for you?
Come and see some wrecked engines if you wish 
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The scourge of Windsor, and notorious founder member of the 'Upper Thames Birchwood Massive' now outlawed by the EA and River pressure groups, currently planning a nice comfy retirement in the aft cabin of a Broom.
Now can anybody recommend any non-marking slippers?
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Whitewater
regular
Reged: 14/04/2008
Posts: 108
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Small world. I'm the mechanic at Kawasaki Motorcycles in Ashton-Under-Lyne. Your post was still flippant though. Chill out a bit.
I'm already familiar with the differences between synthetic and unsynthetic. It was the difference between marine and non marine that I was searching for (and found).
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No_Regrets
regular
Reged: 09/07/2007
Posts: 1392
Loc: Welwyn Garden City, Herts UK.
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The Marine version floats, perhaps?
[awaits bollocking for more flippancy] 
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The scourge of Windsor, and notorious founder member of the 'Upper Thames Birchwood Massive' now outlawed by the EA and River pressure groups, currently planning a nice comfy retirement in the aft cabin of a Broom.
Now can anybody recommend any non-marking slippers?
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rogershuff
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Reged: 31/10/2007
Posts: 2
Loc: Boat @ Tollesbury
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