Pendlecats
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Reged: 29/01/2008
Posts: 513
Loc: North West England
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For our next boat, I am looking in a new direction for us, mainly for onboard living space.
Were used to the traditional style cruising yacht hull shape, solid all weather types, but really we don’t need one to take us safely round the southern oceans etc.. just marina to anchorage now and then with say 2/3 day sailing stints max.
We have an interest in say the Legend (36,38 or41) style or say a SO but never sailed in anything like this.
Thing is people say they get a bit uncomfortable if out in a bit of a swell, what do they mean – with the flatter bottom is it bumpy, banging or teeth crashing – what’s a bit of a swell? Force 4, 8?
What about holding on to things (there very wide and open), or are all these aimed at creating fear.
I mean, they cant be that bad surely, or no one would ever leave the marina in one. 
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KellysEye
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Reged: 23/07/2006
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Loc: Bonaire
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If you mean the American built Hunter Legend (very swept back spreaders and no backstay) then they are very lightly built. The Americans call them 'lake boats', in the sense of what they are fit for.
Edited by KellysEye (24/06/2008 21:49)
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Pendlecats
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Reged: 29/01/2008
Posts: 513
Loc: North West England
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I must admit to hearing that, people have them around the UK (don't know if they leave the marina's in them), what about Sun Odessy's etc, I have heard similar comments about comfort at sea with them.
Would you fear for your life, or a bit like going down a cobble street in an old car?
Just trying to get an opinion on how much sacrifice the modern production boat is to the benefits of space, in our endeavours to find our future.
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roly_voya
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Loc: Pembrokeshire Wales
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Yes it is the flat bottem, yes it is both teeth rattling and potentially dangerous, boats have been abandonded not because they a sinking but because the motion was so sevear people where breaking limbs (see reports from the Fasnet). it doesnt need a F8 just a short steep chop, F4 and a couple of knots of tide the wrong way will make life horrenduse and breack crockery. On the other hand they are very fast and exciting, they are big dingies and sail like them.
One thing to watch is the plated load, if you are used to traditional heavyweights you are use to being able to chuck anything on board without worrying. When I looked at the load level on a Bavaria 34 I found it was less all up than the wt of my ground takle and that had to include fuel, stores and all the boat kit. You need to be strick about keeping it light and if you go over stability can be seriously jepodised. (From memory I think the bavaria had a max load about 1/2 ton above light ship wt)
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Bav34
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Reged: 07/08/2006
Posts: 941
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Quote:
Yes it is the flat bottem, yes it is both teeth rattling and potentially dangerous, boats have been abandonded not because they a sinking but because the motion was so sevear people where breaking limbs (see reports from the Fasnet). it doesnt need a F8 just a short steep chop, F4 and a couple of knots of tide the wrong way will make life horrenduse and breack crockery.
Good grief!
Thank God you have warned us.
To think that we actually survived 10 weeks of force 7's in Southern Brittany last year and were actually daring to set off for North Brittany next Tuesday for another 6 weeks.
Oh what a fool I was to even think of such a thing 
I suppose that the only comfort will be that the broken crockery won't be a problem as we won't be able to use it due to our shattered limbs 
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The early bird may get the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese!
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tony_d
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Reged: 13/01/2005
Posts: 211
Loc: Sydney
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modern boats are uncomfortable because they are fast. 6 knots to windward into a 2m chop and our boat is banging so hard you can barely stand up below. In the sort of boats I started sailing in in the 70's 6 knots to windward was a dream. You would be lucky to manage 3 into any sort of sea. Slow a modern boat down to 3 knots and the motion is the same as the old boats - you just have a lot more room to moan about it in.
I have taken our Bav into the southern ocean during a round tasmania trip. Worst we saw was 55knots of wind and 4m seas but it stood up pretty well and much drier than I remember old boats being.
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TigaWave
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Reged: 17/12/2004
Posts: 1923
Loc: Buckland Monachorum
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Another can of worms here...all boats will be uncomfortable or dangerous in some types of sea, but comparing twisters, Rival 38's, Sweden 38, sigma 36, old half,3/4 tonners and a 1991 Bav. The Bav was the prefferred boat for rough weather. Fine entry heavy boats dig into steep waves take on board huge ammounts of water and pitch to very steep angles. Wider flatter bottomed boats will slam (but you can often shift the angle of attack to help)
My Bav hove to in 10m swell with lots of wind and breaking waves and was comfortable below, it also was happy with a following breaking sea for a couple of days of a similar size, lifting her bum as waves passed under. fine entry heavy yachts were getting cockpit filling seas from astern and were not happy, lots of extra loads as the boat was slow to react to the approaching waves.
With any boat you sail it to the conditions, and you treat them very differently. Pushing them hard while racing is very different from cruising and I'd agree with crockery smashing slamming on 3/4 tonners of 1980 going upwind in steep seas, where a Rival 38 would a softer ride.
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FullCircle
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Reged: 19/11/2003
Posts: 8706
Loc: 30000ft
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Coo, I wouldnt have one of those Bavs if they only hold 1/2 tonne. Try my Jeanneau SUn Odyssey 35 instead. 2.1 tonnes on the plate.
There, thats better isnt it?
I have only had mine out in Force 3 or less, but I sail it upright, as it says in the instructions. Any more than 10 degrees of heel and its going slower. There seems to be some merit in the argument that I will be moored up, in the shower block and then the pub before the MAB hoves into view even. Iwill also be far more comfortable for the rest of my stay. I calculate that 85% of my cruising time is stood still either at anchor or tied to a pontoon, so that means I want to shorten the journey as much as poss, so I will put up with a bit of discomfort on passage to achieve this.
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alant
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Reged: 30/05/2001
Posts: 1998
Loc: UK - Solent region
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I have taken our Bav into the southern ocean during a round tasmania trip. Worst we saw was 55knots of wind and 4m seas but it stood up pretty well and much drier than I remember old boats being.
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To windward???
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Tranona
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Reged: 10/11/2007
Posts: 1548
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Very muddled thinking here. My Bav 37 displaces 5.36 tonnes. Its "capacity" is 8 crew, which at 80kg a person is well over the 1/2 tonne you suggest! I don't have the full RCD certificate with me but like Fullcircle I recall a figure of around 2 tonnes.
Anyway, it is not weight per se that is important, but where it is placed and how it used. Big lumps of lead at the bottom of a boat serve little purpose except to require heavy construction to take the loads and reduce the volume of overall space that can be allocated to other uses.
As to load carrying capacity, this is a function of waterline plane area, not weight. Lighter displacement boats sink less than heavy displacement boats for a given weight. Suggest you go back over PBO back numbers for a series of articles on the subject by Andrew Simpson (who lives and cruises aboard a very modern boat of his own design).
The Fasnet event is not a good example to use - mainly because the boats that were most criticised were built to IOR rules and much of modern design thinking, particulalrly on stability has developed in response to those criticisms.
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Tranona
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Reged: 10/11/2007
Posts: 1548
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In direct answer to your question, suggest you charter a boat for a week to find out. Either in UK to get the local experience (ie weather conditions, tides etc). Or if you want some sun go to Greece and make a holiday out of it. If you go to the Aegean in the summer you will get some serious wind at times to test out whether you like modern boats in heavy weather.
This is exactly what we did (I have a traditional wooden boat in the UK). Ended up buying a Bavaria which is mostly a floating platform for drifting around the Ionian, but I have had it out in the odd spot of heavy weather and have no concerns about its ability - certainly exceeds mine!
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Pendlecats
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Reged: 29/01/2008
Posts: 513
Loc: North West England
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Quote:
Another can of worms here...
Your not kiddin’. The views of this are quite strong, unfortunately the only boating people I know personally have heavy boats and are unhelpful and the lightest I have been on is a Gibsea.
Interesting that some of the comfort issues could be down to speed, SWMBO has seen a Legend (or as a mate pronounced Legg-end) and cant initially see the difference between this and the Bev’s, Ben’s etc…
If sailing and caught out in poor weather, slowing down could help, but it’s concerning that just simply being out can be bad.
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Pendlecats
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Reged: 29/01/2008
Posts: 513
Loc: North West England
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Quote:
I calculate that 85% of my cruising time is stood still either at anchor or tied to a pontoon
This is exactly what I see our life being, we are more likely to be living on her and sailing to get somewhere as a break. I am prepared to put up with some sailing comfort issues – especially if by slowing down a bit this is only slight
The threads brought up concerned about loading issues, this I’ll look into as we would need to carry a bit
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Pendlecats
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Reged: 29/01/2008
Posts: 513
Loc: North West England
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We hope to charter a boat in September, as there is a choice I posted this in advance of booking anything.
Some of what I'm after is do these types of boat actually differ, or are they more or less all the same when out.
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Tranona
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Reged: 10/11/2007
Posts: 1548
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Think the difference is that the Legend majors on accommodation (big fridge, television, vast aft cabin etc) and are less "performance" orientated. They never really caught on here, despite setting up a factory and aggressive marketing.
Note you have a Folkboat. Obviously any modern boat will be very different, but they are very different design concepts and it is a nonsense to try and make any direct comparison.
I am in the unusual position to be able to compare the merits of the two different design approaches as I have both an old wooden boat and a Bavaria. Both are perfect for the use I put them to. I have wandered around the Channel for nearly 30 years in my Eventide, including single handed cross channel and love it. However, SWMBO only likes being anchored in Poole harbour, enjoying the rich glow of the mahogany and the hiss of the Taylors cooking supper. My grandchildren are going to spend their first night on board this year - big adventure!
However in the Bavaria, a 40 mile passage from Paxos to Gouvia with a force 3/4 over the quarter, boat triimmed to sail herself, cold beer from the fridge - what could be better. Have done much the same passage with a NW 4/5, reefed down with the engine ticking over, autopilt on, sprayhood up. Square topped waves just like the Solent so a bit bangy and wet but never scary.
As I suggested, charter one if you are serious about going this route. If you don't like it at least you base that position on some experience, not on guesswork and prejudice.
Good luck!
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HoratioHB
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Reged: 02/10/2006
Posts: 533
Loc: Croosin da Caribbean man
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Just spent 7 months in the Caribbean in a new SO 42i. Met loads of other liveaboards in all sorts of boats. Would not trade mine for any of them - why?
Comfort - large, open, spacious, especially the cockpit which was the envy of all those who came on board. Loads of handholds absolutely no problem moving about in any sea and we had some bloody rough passages on occasions.
Manoevarability - we can steer backwards in Marinas!! and we don't have a bow thruster. Talk to an Island Packet owner how he goes stern to - the answer is with a lot of help from shore!!
Speed - bloody quick, I did Antigua to Guadaloupe at an average of 8.8 knots (GPS not log). When we left Grenada in with three Island Packets - we left 1 hour later and arrived 2.5 hours before them. Getting somewhere 25% faster than a traditional boat is worth a hell of a lot.
Sea Keeping - yes she does slam head into sea especially when motoring - so we don't go!! Thats the beauty of living aboard. But once sailing she is no worse than any other type I have sailed (37years) it all depends on the wave and swell type as much as the hull design.
Would I go further offshore? - we were parked in Nelsons Dockyard in Antigua for Christmas along with most of the Blue Water rally boats, many of which were of the same type -seemed to get across the Atlantic alright. We have a hankering for the Pacific in a year or two and I am not changing my boat.
So do I consider modern yacht designs uncomfortable? - no more so than any other boat. A traditional hull may be slightly more sea kindly in some sea states but I will have been in the bar with a large one chilling out, while he is still bouncing around. Meanwhile SWMBO and I can fully stretch out on either side of the cockpit and watch another brilliant sunset, rum in hand.
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I have gone down to the sea again
The lonely sea and the sky
and am drinking too much rum
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Guapa
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Reged: 24/09/2003
Posts: 5143
Loc: UK East Coast
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Quote:
the only boating people I know personally have heavy boats
Maybe they know something you don't (yet)  
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I'll eat when I'm hungry
I'll drink when I'm dry
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Or I'll spit in your eye.
I think what I please and
I say what I mean.
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Robin
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Reged: 30/05/2001
Posts: 5464
Loc: Poole UK
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Well said.
Our Jeanneau Sun Legende 41 is rather older, dating from 1988, but has all the space and pace (the original of the class was a French One Tonner and French Admirals Cup team member). We go upwind at 7kts at 28degs to the apparent wind (22degs is possible in flat seas but VMG is no better). Normally she doesn't slam under sail, but if we were to motor straight into as head sea then yes the flatter section forwards can slam. However, I remember well a trip along the North Brittany coast, sailing dead upwind with F5/6 wind blowing against a spring tide. We caught up and overtook a similar sized heavily built long keeled wooden ketch that was motor sailing. He was pitching heavily and throwing up loads of spray and was certainly not at all comfortable, yet we were sat up on the cockpit coamings, leaning into our Position A backrests on the dodgers, sprayhood DOWN and really enjoying a 7kt beat and with wall to wall grins. So who says you need a long keeled heavyweight to be comfortable!
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 Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!
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Tranona
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Reged: 10/11/2007
Posts: 1548
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Yes, they differ in much the same way as Focus, Golf, Astra, Megane etc differ. Most builders have two ranges, one more "sporty" than the other eg Beneteau First (sporty) and Oceanis (cruisy). At the top end sizewise there has been a move towards deck saloons eg Bavaria Vision.
These different ranges are designed to fill all the gaps in the target markets. Just like cars they may be based on the same hull design, but have different rigs and keels, posh sails, more luxurious interiors etc as the builder tries to meet specific customer requirements.
This becomes much clearer when you start looking seriously and try to match what is on offer with your requirements. As this thread has shown, many people use modern boats successfully for passage making and live aboards.
Despite what some might say, the one thing you won't have to generally worry about is standard of build and quality of materials. Although, as with cars, the odd dog gets through, if it is a specific model it gets sorted very quickly, or equally a specific boat gets fixed early in its life.
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Adaero
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Reged: 15/04/2003
Posts: 63
Loc: Bideford, Devon, UK
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I will probably get shot down in flames here but have you considered a Catamaran for live aboard? This isn't bait for a multi/mono debate.
Advantages: -
Living space all on one level, less motion in heavier seas (though a very different motion), obviously sails a lot flatter, better performance, a 36ft cat has the interior space of a 45ft mono, the wife will love it, you can sail at 8+ knots and you won't spill your beer, no gimbaled stoves or need to tie everything down, run your watch from the dry comfort of the saloon with an autopilot remote.
Disadvantages: -
Cost, they are a lot more expensive to buy and to berth, much more sensitive to weight so leave the best china at home, feel, they don't give you the same feedback as a mono.
Worth a thought.
Adaero
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Pendlecats
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Reged: 29/01/2008
Posts: 513
Loc: North West England
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The space advantages are really coming out with the experience of you lot.
"Tranona" Has a very good point in chartering, I never considered UK which could be more convenient in time and lower cost, the general impression I get is that Bav’s and your SO’s are amongst the most popular of them, Must admit that the possibility of some time in the future venturing much further is helped when these types have done it.
We looked into the Legend as I quite like the main build and SWMBO liked the space, now I must admit I would not get a boat that is unproven so I think our charter is likely to be a SO – We may have a chance of crewing on a Bav of a friend of a friend.
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Pendlecats
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Reged: 29/01/2008
Posts: 513
Loc: North West England
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Quote:
Quote:
the only boating people I know personally have heavy boats
Maybe they know something you don't (yet)
SWMBO said my Dad'll turn in his grave, I said buying a plastic boat would do that - with what were planning he'll be spinning.
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I’m coming about - DUCK!
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Pendlecats
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Reged: 29/01/2008
Posts: 513
Loc: North West England
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Considered a cat, looked at a Prout, was frightend off mainly with the marina costs, but also they look so big (I have a hard enough job with just one Bow and Stern let alone two).
SWMBO hasn't been on one yet thank god or this decision would take too long.
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KellysEye
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Reged: 23/07/2006
Posts: 759
Loc: Bonaire
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If you are sailing for two to three days then you are within a fairly accurate weather forecast. As such, IMO, a lightweight boat is fine.
We've sailed lots of different Beneteaus (First and Oceanis), Jenneaus and Gibseas and, frankly, didn't like them. All flat bottom fin keel boats slam going upwind, they all broach and they are all skittish.
Some get into deep trouble. For example some good friends of ours were delivering a Jeanneau 42 from the BVIs to Antigua in a near gale and it was slamming big time. It sank NW of Antigua in short order and the sinking was put down to hull failure or a water tank in the bows breaking free and puncturing the hull..
However most owners of such boats (with obvious exceptions on this forum) don't go out in such conditions, so going light shouldn't be a problem.
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Tranona
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Reged: 10/11/2007
Posts: 1548
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I think it would be more helpful to me and the OP if you could give us the benefit of your experiences with your preferred kind of boat rather than making dismissive statements about other types.
This thread unlike many on this topic has been positive and helpful in the advice given to the OP who wanted to know about experiences with modern boats. And if you read them all you will find many use them successfully in the kind of conditions you describe. Something in the same vein from a different perspective would indeed be useful.
Look forward to hearing from you
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Morgana
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Reged: 28/08/2003
Posts: 12728
Loc: East Coast
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I've got a 40' Oceanis.....
i've sailed it in upto 40kts of wind, and large seas, and it handles them without any real concern at all...
Yes, we've had a bit of slamming when motoring upwind into large seas, but even then, a good helm can reduce the slamming significantly.
Never once have I worried about hull strength or integrity.
I would happily (and indeed intend to) cross oceans in her.
We too can echo the comments above... in perhaps 20kts of wind, we are trucking along, and can often overtake many heavier boats who are busy pushing the waves out of the way rather than going over them!...
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Bored?.... why not read my blog .... its the developing story of the trials and tribulations of boat ownership!
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Guapa
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Reged: 24/09/2003
Posts: 5143
Loc: UK East Coast
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Quote:
in perhaps 20kts of wind, we are trucking along, and can often overtake many heavier boats who are busy pushing the waves out of the way rather than going over them!...
Sounds like a challenge to me 
Care to put your money where your mouth is? How about 50p?
Sails at dawn!
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Guapa on the web
I'll eat when I'm hungry
I'll drink when I'm dry
Don't boss me or cross me
Or I'll spit in your eye.
I think what I please and
I say what I mean.
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Morgana
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Reged: 28/08/2003
Posts: 12728
Loc: East Coast
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50p...... what are you... made of money?.......
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Bored?.... why not read my blog .... its the developing story of the trials and tribulations of boat ownership!
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Guapa
regular
Reged: 24/09/2003
Posts: 5143
Loc: UK East Coast
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Me? Last of the true 'big spenders'
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Guapa on the web
I'll eat when I'm hungry
I'll drink when I'm dry
Don't boss me or cross me
Or I'll spit in your eye.
I think what I please and
I say what I mean.
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