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  1. #51
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    Default Re: do i need the ICC cert to go into marinas in europe

    Roger
    As a RYA PB instructor and ICC tester for power & sail I shouldn't / can't comment.

    But in a way you are correct and so is the RYA - the ICC ticket is supposed to be "proof" that the person in command "can operate the boat safely", so your comment

    [ QUOTE ]
    if you can't pass it then you shouldn't think about sailing half a mile let alone abroad

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Holds true on all counts. I would expect anyone that has used their "own" boat for any length of time to be able to operate it safely.

    BTW the one part of the test that I have conducted that candidates could fail on is MOB recover drill!

    One thing that I take into account is that despite my experience and boat handling skills over the years I have made some glorious, flag waving, gold plated cock-ups - instant headache stuff, so if a candidate fails to complete the task I have set, then I simply say "that didn't go to well why don't WE have another go" and then if I feel that he can handle the boat when I'm not looking over his shoulder then I'll pass him but if he can't well - sorry!!!!!!

    Peter.

  2. #52
    Gunfleet is offline Registered User
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    Default Re: do i need the ICC cert to go into marinas in europe

    Have you ever failed anyone? I knew someone who failed a Dazed Kipper, but never met anyone who'd (admitted to) an ICC failure

  3. #53
    jimbaerselman's Avatar
    jimbaerselman is offline Registered User
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    Default Re: do i need the ICC cert to go into marinas in europe

    Bejasus,

    You're unlikely to be asked for anything as long as you don't attempt to travel along inland waters (canals).

    As I've said above, in ten years of live aboard cruising around a very large number of European harbours, only one offical ever asked for my qualifications. That official also accepted that as long as I was sailing the high seas, I did not have to produce anything, and that such qualifications and their requirements were only policed by the flag country.

    I have asked above in this thread if anyone on this forum has had to show their qualifications, and so far, only those on, or trying to enter, inland waters, have had their credentials checked. (Ah, sorry, just noted that Lizzie B reported two second hand events - where presumably the ICC sufficed)

    Lots of others have mused about official behaviour and what someone might do. That's different, and probably irrelevant.
    JimB
    http://jimbsail.info helps Skippers plan Europe Cruises

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
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    Default Re: do i need the ICC cert to go into marinas in europe

    [ QUOTE ]
    And yet legally,if britished registered, other EU countries have no jurisdiction in matters of VAT so have no reason to ask for VAT documentation. Which is the point about local officials not always knowing what the law is regarding your vessel. Hence the wisdom of carrying a simply obtained piece of paper like the ICC, just in case!!!!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I have carried an ICC in my various boats for 40 years and never ever been asked to produce it anywhere in the world.

    No nation can impose its local regulations on a 'sea' boat arriving by sea. International maritime law.

    With the exception of the 'trailer boat' in an earlier post nobody on this forum has ever been asked to produce an ICC in a sea port. (inland waterways are different) or if they have been asked and not had, it been ..... what?

    The ICC has a mythology about it which has no base in reality.

    I think it is unwise to assume the the customs and excise people of other European countries are badly trained, do not know international law relating to boats, are stupid or just foreign.... The EU vat situation is universal throughout the entire EU but each country sets its own rate. Boats are a special problem as Non EU visitors sometimes want to break the rules and stay longer than permitted without paying VAT. There are UK folks around in boats which have been 'exported' and never paid VAT on importation... The excise people have every right to check out any boat in their waters -- and do.
    Its their job.
    The Brits check as well...
    Gentle Sailing Route to the Med
    http://www.michaelbriant.com

  5. #55
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    Default Re: do i need the ICC cert to go into marinas in europe

    Exactly!

  6. #56
    Lizzie_B's Avatar
    Lizzie_B is offline Registered User
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    Default Re: do i need the ICC cert to go into marinas in europe

    They weren't secondhand - I was on board as crew.
    sorry chief, but I 'ad this bang on the 'ead see!

  7. #57
    Lizzie_B's Avatar
    Lizzie_B is offline Registered User
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    Default Re: do i need the ICC cert to go into marinas in europe

    HMCE themselves informed me that other EU countries have 'no jurisdiction in VAT matters regarding a British Registered Vessel'. It obviously a completely different matter for a non EU vessel. There is no problem with British inspecting british registered vessel.
    Also, it is not always a country's C & E people the cause problems, but local officials in some of the quieter backwaters.

    The ICC was introduced precisely because cruising yachtsmen were having problems with overseas officials, but hopefully things have improved over the years. However, if you had read my post you would have noted I have been asked three times - albeit in the States, and have been twice been present on boats where the skippers have been asked for there 'qualifications' in Europe - both in Spanish waters. This in the time span of three years.

    No one is suggesting EU officials are stupid or worse trained than the Brits. To be honest I would sometimes like to see a little more vigour from our own services, but I believe they are doing the best they can while hopelessly over stretched.

    However, the varying responses people have experienced when trying to take lifejackets by air shows that junior staff and sometimes higher will often say 'no' when they are unsure of the law rather than make the effort to check the facts.

    As to what might happen if you don't have one, is it really worth the hassle to find out. Fairly standard in the States is the impounding of the boat until such time as the mess is sorted out one way or another and the possibility of a fine.
    sorry chief, but I 'ad this bang on the 'ead see!

  8. #58
    Guest

    Default Re: do i need the ICC cert to go into marinas in europe

    [ QUOTE ]
    HMCE themselves informed me that other EU countries have 'no jurisdiction in VAT matters regarding a British Registered Vessel'.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    This seems to be the view of HMCE, but not necessarily of the Customs of their continental brethren! German Customs demanded that I prove the VAT status of my (British Part 1 registered, British built etc.) boat last summer.

  9. #59
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    Default Re: do i need the ICC cert to go into marinas in europe

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    HMCE themselves informed me that other EU countries have 'no jurisdiction in VAT matters regarding a British Registered Vessel'.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    This seems to be the view of HMCE, but not necessarily of the Customs of their continental brethren! German Customs demanded that I prove the VAT status of my (British Part 1 registered, British built etc.) boat last summer.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think there is some confusion here.

    If you or I sail into a foreign port of the EU then the 'officials' have every right to require 'proof' that VAT has been paid on the boat. Apparently the RYA is working at creating a document to meet this situation - so far with little success. The big problem is that 'boats' purchased on a business or for export outside the EU have the VAT returned so they are non paid vat. If the business 'sells' the boat on but does not declare its sale or the AWB taken overseas comes back with SSR into any EU waters for more than a 'tourist' visit it is liable for VAT but how do the officials of any EU country tell that??? Its just AWB with a SSR...

    Interesting problem for the officials and for us.

    Of Course 'foreign' officials have no jurisdiction over a UK vessel in UK waters VAT status. They have every right to question the VAT status of any boat in their waters.
    Gentle Sailing Route to the Med
    http://www.michaelbriant.com

  10. #60
    Lizzie_B's Avatar
    Lizzie_B is offline Registered User
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    Default Re: do i need the ICC cert to go into marinas in europe

    But not according to HMCE who were responding to just that problem being put to them. As far as they were concerned other EU countries eg the French, had no right to ask for proof of VAT paid status or VAT exempt status of british registered vessels. Therefore they did not need to issue any sort of document that could be presented to prove VAT status to eg French Customs. The only thing they had a right to examine was the VAT status of goods I might be carrying on board if I was clearing EU customs in France having sailed into EU waters from outside, but if I was not entering EU from outside they had no jurisdiction.
    sorry chief, but I 'ad this bang on the 'ead see!

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